Clippers Vs. Nets 11-23-12 Official Game Thread (P. 6)

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pageC4
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Did CF86 or myself hint at that? I hope my post or CF86 dont give you that idea. People run away with how they view criticism here. Every game has some players that dont have a good night, and rightlyfully so those mistakes should be pointed out and corrected...how does that equate to people wanting these guys off the team? People here need to get a grip. LEts not make this into some brownie points contest for being a fan. Let me make one thing clear here unless a member of CTB here says "Trade CP3 because he's a bum" the persons criticism of the player is simply a criticism of an aspect of that players game or performance for a given night.

As CF86 said we all have our favorites. I was a big proponent of Deandre Jordan when he and Kaman were competing for the job. That doesnt mean that when DJ had bonehead games I didnt get mad at him too. Same goes with this team now. I have my favorites and i've grown dissatisfied with eahc player at some games here..doesnt mean i want the dudes gone. I love this team, and dont forget that my belief in thsi team goes far enough to have predicted a finals win even back into the preseason..no one else here did so as early on as me, but that doesnt mean that just because we criticise the bad performances we want the team blown up..dont jump the gun people

ArtClip
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One could tell CP3 was mad at the end of the game, he won't let this happen again (hopefully). We have four easy games ahead starting tomorrow, so we should be 12-4 by the end of next week. It was a tough loss, but I think the team will bounce back the same way they did when we lost against GSW and the Cavs. Let's relax and root four our team tomorrow night.

Voyeur
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So...I didn't get to watch any of the game. I was working and periodically had my computer on the "play by play" part of the NBA site. Therefore, I'm definitely missing some valuable perspective. I do have to ask...

How does Blake Griffin have NO field goal attempts in the fourth quarter? I mean NONE! Was he, like, tripled the last 6 minutes? Did CP3 just keep the ball for himself (not the first time that would happen)? Did Blake just not want it? Did VDN have no designed plays for BG?

What the heck, man?!

There's no doubt I want Blake to want it more...and perhaps it's time for him to just get MAD and demand the ball for himself...but it's gotta be more than that. I can't help thinking about one of the last games last season against the Knicks at Madison Square Garden. CP3 sat out due to injury and it was a close game. It was down the stretch and VDN drew up a play in which BG was to take a running jump hook across the lane. I know this because when the game returned from commercial we overheard VDN calling the play to his team. What happened? BG drove across the lane and nailed the jump hook, EXACTLY as planned. Unfortunately, we lost that game, but BG played very well throughout.

My point is, we know Blake can do it. We know Blake can score in the fourth quarter. Why can't he do it while Chris Paul is on the floor?

pageC4
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You forgot CF86.. your opinions must be pollyana positive at all time or else dont post them at all. You should just root for the Lakers because we all know thats what people who dont always agree with the consensus really are here lol

clipperboy24
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another crap game where our offense looked completely disoriented. Once again CP3 failed us and Blake refused to be agressive in the second half. very very frustrating, but I know we will get it back. Just need a lot better effort from our two superstars

OptimusDimes
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I think that we need better lineups, and plays.

pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
bullterrierclipsfan1349 wrote:
@icecoldclipper and @clipperjoe, come on, we are all clips fans, relax with the attacks. yes, the loss was a painful loss due to how bad the team played as a collective,but we got to move on and see if the clips can salvage a 2-2 record on this road trip. i think we can.

My point in all of this is pointing out the hypocrisy on calling others nuthuggers for calling this a a team loss. made the point, moving along.

I think it comes down to this: people should be able to voice an opinion on the team, but keep comments on who is a true fan or who is an idiot to yourself. No one has a monopoly on the true definition of a fan. You can politely disagre with something and dont question someones fan hood.

clipperboy24
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clipper*joe wrote:
Clippersfan86 wrote:
Bledsoe played just 12 minutes, had 6 points, 3 rebounds, 1 block and had the 2nd best plus and minus on the entire team Joe so not sure how he sucked. He simply didn't get enough minutes or get used properly (as usual). DJ absolutely got creamed on defense but the man had 12 and 13 in only 24 minutes, so not sure what the issue is? Sure he didn't "dominate" or anything but he played very solid and has nowhere near the expectations of CP3 and Griffin.

He sucked ass.

in 12 minutes, he had 3 to's to ZERO assists. I don't pay attention to much to his points since he likes to do that best. What I look at, is how much he makes his teammates better. He is, after all, a PG...Right?

3 TO's to zero assists is sucking ass for a PG. No ifs and buts about it.

i dont think he sucked A but he had a pretty mediocre game. He needs to balance the distribution and scoring. Seems like he can get into one mode or the other but when he balances them... wow, he is pretty dang good

bullterrierclipsfan1349
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for that to happen, dj needs to make his shots when he gets the ball in the post

Voyeur
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If we can come out and win tomorrow, I will feel a lot better. But especially if we win by BG being BG the whole game and CP playing like an unselfish point guard the whole game.

clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
Clippersfan86 wrote:

Why post at all then on a forum if you can't post opinions or analysis? Basically if you criticize in your opinion it's not worth posting. Feel free to use the ignore button or not read my posts but for the love of God try to be less ignorant.

You forgot CF86.. your opinions must be pollyana positive at all time or else dont post them at all. You should just root for the Lakers because we all know thats what people who dont always agree with the consensus really are here lol

Your sarcastic comments are a bit much

clipper*joe
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YES!

clipperstown
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Basically this is what happened. Blake would get the ball, hold it for 18 seconds, then kick it back out. OR, he would get the ball in the post, hold it for 15 seconds, WAIT for the help defense to come, THEN drive it to the rim and get shafted cause there are 2 defenders there. Third thing was he would get the ball, try to pass it out and turn it over. god damn, he reminded me so much of kaman this game....

pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
pageC4 wrote:

Did CF86 or myself hint at that?

YES!

then you misread. For the record I dont want CP3 gone. I know his resume speaks for himself, but I have to say he has not been the CP3 we brought in to lead this franchise. Can he get better and regain that form..i hope so. So hopefully that clears up what I feel about CP3 and his future on this franchise. If I post something on here, like say does his shooting worry me..then thats exaclty the extent of what I am blogging about..for the record I dont want him traded..i want him to get his **** together and lead this team like he was able to lead a group that was by far less talented than this team in New Orleans

clipper*joe
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Calling people who said this was team loss a "nut hugger" for having said opinion, is not an opinion, it's trolling. One should actually understand what a person is trying convey with what they write, otherwise, they make themselves look like idiots.

Calling people "nut huggers" for having an opinion on how they viewed this loss is uncalled for. Since the person who said that, left out their favorite player, i called him out on it.

As far as what you wrote, I have no idea what you're trying to say. I don't think anyone was called out for not being a fan.

pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
pageC4 wrote:

I think it comes down to this: people should be able to voice an opinion on the team, but keep comments on who is a true fan or who is an idiot to yourself. No one has a monopoly on the true definition of a fan. You can politely disagre with something and dont question someones fan hood.

Calling people who said this was team loss a "nut hugger" for having said opinion, is not an opinion, it's trolling. One should actually understand what a person is trying convey with what they write, otherwise, they make themselves look like idiots.

Calling people "nut huggers" for having an opinion on how they viewed this loss is uncalled for. Since the person who said that, left out their favorite player, i called him out on it.

As far as what you wrote, I have no idea what you're trying to say. I don't think anyone was called out for not being a fan.

The use of the term "nut hugger" does not pertain to me...i never used it. Read the posts from the beginning and people are getting on CF86 as if if hes some traitor for criticizing CP3. That was my gripe, but yes your right. I dont exactly condone the use of the word nut hugger, which is why i didnt make it.

clipper*joe
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No, I don't think you read what 86 wrote. Maybe you should catch up on the last few pages to get a better idea on what you're defending. It wasn't you who wrote it.

clipper*joe
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Who said you did? You quoted me, remember? I assumed you knew what I was talking about when you wrote about a monopoly.

Voyeur
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I appreciate the response. The problem is, according to the play-by-play, there's no turnovers for BG in the 4th. As far as being shafted, there's no recorded attempts. Some of those things happened in the 3rd however.

No attempts in the fourth is ridiculous. Surely, if VDN draws up a play for BG (like he did that jump hook I mentioned), Blake would execute it. There's no question in my mind Blake would be more aggressive if Paul wasn't on the floor.

I don't know what that means, or what it says about our team, but VDN, CP3 and BG better figure it out.

pageC4
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What im defending is personal opinion. Everyone should be allowed to post theirs. Now there's going to be points to where even CF86 and I will diverge. I just had to chime in on people getting on him for voicing his opinion.

clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:

No, I don't think you read what 86 wrote. Maybe you should catch up on the last few pages to get a better idea on what you're defending. It wasn't you who wrote it.

What im defending is personal opinion. Everyone should be allowed to post theirs. Now there's going to be points to where even CF86 and I will diverge. I just had to chime in on people getting on him for voicing his opinion.

Fair enough. But if someone says to "dump" CP3, expect a reaction is all I'm saying. I do agree, telling someone they should probably cheer for another team for saying something like that is uncalled for.

anyway, another game tomorrow...

Steady818
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Its simple we lost.. Why after every loss is it the end of the world??

I didn't happen to catch the game, but it looks like nobody stepped up..

It seems VDNs playbook is non existent, Its pick and roll here and there than get bailed out. That has to change and so far it hasn't and i don't expect it to change.. Its as Clippersam would say his talent is elevating his actual coaching.. VDN, Paul and Blake all have to step it up or else we wont get through very far..

Crawford is slowly cooling down as they find ways to contain him.. EBled needs to get more minutes and even though DJ is much improved, he needs to step up his game much more to even warrant his worth on that contract.. LO has been a waste and Caron Butler is just 2 busy picking out his daily straw for the day..

Ryan Hollins is what he is.. Only 2 people i can't complain about is Matt Barnes and Ronny Turiaf who play like they want it. My point through my rant is, we were not going to come close to winning 70 games, and even 60 was a bit of a stretch. There is a lot of time to improve but that improvement is not just from one single person.. Its starts with CP3 and Blake, it moves to VDN who in turn has to find better ways to produce offense. Its a team effort and a 8-4 record is not a bad start but we have a long ways to go.

pageC4
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Its crazy how f***** complicated the fire VDn or keep VDN debate can get. MY question to both supporters and opponents of VDN is how do we evaluate his effectiveness? That seems to be the biggest source of contention.

hoopfanjd31
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^^^ wins and losses would seem to be the most obvious answer. If we keep winning at least 2x as many games as we lose, there is no legitimate reason to make a coaching change. No matter how much some people on an Internet message board think we should be winning more.

Steady818
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It depends which side of it you look at..

During our winning streak his rotations were spot on and his PNR was working.. But what happens when all that is stopped is the question..

There is no doubt in my mind he is a great motivator.

Now that we are losing his rotations havent been up to level and his flaws are being exposed. Now as far as firing him no, i don't want him fired.. at least not yet but if he cant take this team to the next level than you start looking at the options.

pageC4
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Good criteria. Hopefully not a massive streal though like last year. If we do get the 2X wins per each loss then i hope its not a huge win streak followed by a huge losing streak. moderation

hoopfanjd31
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Repped High Quality Post

Also, and I'm sorry if this is perceived as a personal attack on anyone, but the idea that this team would somehow be better without Chris Paul is straight up asinine, IMO.

Please keep in mind that Eric Bledsoe doesn't have other teams gearing their entire defensive strategy to containing him. Nor does he regularly have to go against the other team's best defensive player(s). If he did, like Paul does every night, I'm sure his production would not be the same.

pageC4
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Steady818 wrote:
pageC4 wrote:
Its crazy how f***** complicated the fire VDn or keep VDN debate can get. MY question to both supporters and opponents of VDN is how do we evaluate his effectiveness? That seems to be the biggest source of contention.

It depends which side of it you look at..

During our winning streak his rotations were spot on and his PNR was working.. But what happens when all that is stopped is the question..

There is no doubt in my mind he is a great motivator.

Now that we are losing his rotations havent been up to level and his flaws are being exposed. Now as far as firing him no, i don't want him fired.. at least not yet but if he cant take this team to the next level than you start looking at the options.

True, but sadly we only find out if he cant take us to the next level if he fails to get us past the second round this year. There lies that difficulty we have to get to that second round and see how it goes from there. For our sake I hope Vinny is the right guy because this is by far the best team in the league from top to bottom, and I doubt we have everyone back next year. This needs to be the year and i dont want this guy to fail as our coach..if he isnt the guy for this job I would rather he find out now while the seaosn is young and still salvagable in case he isnt the right guy

Steady818
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It most definitly is... Without Chris Paul our record would be reversed..

Whole team is playing subpar these past 2 games and it baffles me on how CP3 all of a sudden should not be extended and should be traded..

pageC4
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No personal attack. Your welcome to that opinion

ekker3
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anyone who's blaming this loss on vinny probably outted themselves as a former laker fan in that other thread.

clipper*joe
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THANK YOU!!!

A rep coming...

Anyway, you hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. They plan against CP3 more than any other player on this team. I think that's been his problem. I said it after the loss against the Thunder, the Pops and Brooks found a way to neutralize CP3. Pops and Brooks used a defensive minded, taller player against CP3. Pops used Leonard in the first matchup and I'm sure he would have used Leonard if not for him being hurt in the second matchup. Brooks used Sefo against Cp3 and it worked. Oh, and the Heat used a double on CP3 for a big part of the game too.

Teams are going after CP3 much harder this season for some reason and my guess is it will continue. When Bledsoe gets that treatment, then we can talk.

Clippersfan86
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Yea I agree it's weird that team has stopped PNR completely. It's now pure iso ball and drive and kick.

tense2
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I just think some peoples expectations get a little out of whack sometimes and that's when the frustrations come into play when the team doesn't live up to what they THINK the team SHOULD be, particularly after only 12 games. I'm sure there are some here who think we should or could be 12-0 right now because that's their mind set, just like the one poster a couple of days ago who though we would be 26-4 after 30 games. All possible, unfortunately reality says highly improbable.

We'll get a little better idea around the 25 to 30 game mark, when we should be at full strength, of what this team could/might be. We will all know what this team was/is at seasons end. In the mean time, IMO it's best to try and not let your expectations run wild when we lose 2-3 in a row or win 6-8 in a roll....and Im sure those to 2 things can/will happen again.

Clippersfan86
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Tense I agree we'll have a better idea at the 25-30 game mark but I'm still very concerned with some things after 12 games. CP3+Griffin primarily and then Vinny to a lesser degree. Honestly I may unfairly be blaming Vinny because outside of his poor rotations you hear him yelling at the players to do things and they don't even listen. You can hear him screaming 3 point line! etc.... right before the Clippers have a defensive breakdown and allow a barrage of 3's. I mean the pairing of Griffin+CP3 has a chance to be legendary and it's so underwhelming. Their synergy is pretty terrible.

The one game that still stands out to me as showing their full potential was vs Utah, in Utah last year where both had 30+ 10+ games and ran some BEAUTIFUL PNR all game long. Not sure why the coaches don't make them watch that tape every day.

david
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Well, when you can't pull away, then you start to make a ton of careless mistakes and missing easy shots down the stretch, you're going to lose. The only run I can remember the Clippers going on was towards the end of the second quarter when the guys pulled ahead by 7 or so after being down by 1 or 2. Otherwise it was a back and forth very tight game. We really didn't have an answer for Brook Lopez, and Joe Johnson really hurt the team as well.

This was one of those rare games where our bench could not impose themselves. The Nets really focused on stopping Crawford and Bledsoe, and when the outlet pass came it really resulted anything positive like an open jumper or a dunk. Guys were in a hurry to try to give the ball back to those two- they wanted no piece of the action. That's why it's important to have some set-plays other than one on one. Jamal and EB can break their guys off the dribble, but when they are getting doubled, the Clippers have to make the other team pay.

Defensively Willie Green was just too short to guard a big guard like Joe Johnson. Johnson was successful early and it certainly didn't hurt his confidence the rest of the game. With Butler back, for tonight anyways maybe Barnes should have started. Speaking of Barnes- it's definitely one of his poorer games. With him you want to see him attack the hoop and get fouled, not try to make a pass....

Looking at the +/- stats- our old friend Reggie Evans lead everyone with +15. I can't say that I'm surprised.

bullterrierclipsfan1349
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without a doubt. you cant blame vdn for careless turnovers or missing open shots.

ClipperHeart
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I'm glad the Fakers lost too but it led to a memphis win.. Sad

toohipcliptoslip
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Ye of little faith.

This a new squad arguably the best in the NBA. On a given night we can beat anybody but teams are figuring us out. That's good because we see our flaws.

Your best friends aren't those who love you it's those who hate you,they don't lie

clippermitch
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We obviously couldn't score in the 2nd half for some bizarre reason. We turned the ball over way too much so no **** attempts in many possessions.

But one trend I'm starting to see is big guards and small forwards posting Crawford in the post. Has he become a defensive liability? Even CP was exposed in the post by Westbrook, Deron, and Joe Johnson.

Joe Johnson killed us last night. I can't wait for Hill to come back and stop this. He's probably our best low post defender. He can guard PGs too similar to what other teams do to CP.

When Hill comes back, we'll take off and not lose these games anymore.

pageC4
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I was reading the summary of the game and they said that Chirs Paul and BG didnt make anything in the fourth quarter, is that correct?

cleepers
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You're the first one to mention Barnes and you're absolutely right to do so. Matt played terribly - not that I want to single him out, because he's been amazing for us so far - but his performance was very symptomatic of the team as a whole.

It seemed like Ibaka did a great job of making guys think twice about going to the rim, and that carried over into this game. We just weren't ourselves... over-thinking plays and usually making one pass too many. If we had a day of practice and played the Nets again, we'd blow them out of the building.

If we can salvage 2-2 on this very tough trip, the guys will have done their jobs.

david
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^^Yeah Barnes has been great, but I've noticed one thing that's below-average is his passing, especially on the break. He just takes too many risks and is in too much of a rush with his passes. So yeah we want him to just go to the hoop hard and at least get fouled.

We definitely missed a lot of chippies at the rim- DJ must have missed like 4 or 5 of them. CP3, Barnes, and Bledsoe missed their share as well. Brooke Lopez definitely had something to do some of those, but otherwise it was just one of those things...

tense2
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Yep....Paul missed all 3 FGA's he tried and Blake didn't even attempted a shot.

cleepers
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Yeah, DJ has the highest FG% in the league and he goes 5/14. Lopez may have had some part in that, but he's not exactly famous for jumping out of the gym. Sometimes, they just don't fall. I'm not worried.

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