DeAndre Jordan Performance Discussion Thread (P. 22)

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clipper*joe
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^^ I'd say more like the tin man with the scarecrow's problem

j/k

Smile

Icecoldclipper
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Would of liked better urgency on the defensive glass and probably him respecting Mozgov as a threat and being more physical. Overall last night was not terrible everyone was sluggish first half and DJ never found that second gear but was good nonetheless.

CapsNClips
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I'd sure hope DJ is a household name among NBA head coaches, because that's who votes for the All-star reserves.

pageC4
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sometimes the biggest factor in a season is injury. I'm reminded of the injury to Westbrook which destroyed the trajectory of the thunder, a team that had gone from wildcard, second round, then nba finals...a clear improvement every year. who knows how far that team could have gone.

that being said DJ's durability is a huge asset, and considering he was draftex in the second round he may yet be one of the biggest steals in history

CP3Heliflopter
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True but considering his competition he shouldn't be getting in. Remember no more center spot. Now its F/C.

His competition:

Durant

Blake

Love

Dwight

LMA

Dirk

Cousins

Duncan

and a few more.

He frankly just isn't deserving atm. He would make it in the East but everything is just a lot more competitive in the Wild West.

namzug
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I've loved DJ's improvement, but he still needs work against the big bodies. Pek gives him a lot of trouble, he is probably the biggest body in the NBA, but other big guys give him trouble too.

If the all-star game still had a center position then we could make the argument that he should make it. With three front court spots, then I think it should be Durant, Blake, and Aldridge. I feel like Love gives almost as much as he gets, and I know he just torched us but still feel like Blake is the better defender.

Voyeur
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Blake's definitely a better defender. Even last night, BG made Love work for his shots...they were falling in. I see Love's performance like that of a wounded animal being cornered. He was GOING to have a massive game one way or another. As far as Pek. I feel like DJ should have tried to front him more. I meant if they try a lob, DJ should be able to intercept those...at least a better shot of doing that than stopping Pek from behind.

ClipperDB
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I also think DJ has improved a great deal -at least he is going for rebounds and has the tip-out that is working. However, I think he could be so much better if he boxed-out fundamentally. He doesn't use his body to get position or root someone out, he simply uses his arms and pushes. That technique won't work against stronger opponents.

Agent0
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DJ has a weak base, and that will affect him in terms of boxing out and post defense, basically forever. He can't easily move people because he is lower body is not that strong, he doesn't have a wide lower body. I don't know if there's a solution for him in regards to that.

toohipcliptoslip
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The original #6 What I noticed is that DJ's back tap is getting better. Notice how Bill's back tap goes to one of his team mates. DJ's is getting there.

Check his battle with Wilt. There are those who consider him GOAT. Most #4

Can't do Old School without ---

Wilt dunks while behind the backboard

Wilt blocks a shot at the top of the backboard

ClippersDA
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This is the best explanation yet, thank you. In light if this, he needs to work on fronting players and how best to utilize his length without jumping on pump fakes.

Kingkanyon
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So now you need a wide bass to rebound, I guess he should be averaging more than 13 rebounds eh......?

I think your trying to hard, he's tops in the league in Offense and Defensive Rebounds, I think his rebounding is fine. After all rebounding has nothing to do with having a wide base, nor does it have anything to do with strength, it's all about knowing how the ball bounces off the rim, getting position Early, these are all things that Kevin Love is a master at, Just like Rodman whom was a 6'8 at best, skinny man. Boyyyyy I Swear. lol. The kid is till learning on the job man, we can't rush the process, even though it would be nice.

I think his rebound is fine, the team as a whole needs to help him out. He and Blake do need to learn the Concept of Ball Denial and Fronting.

ClippersDA
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I think this more explains how DJ is moved so easily in post on defense

Agent0
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Huh? Did you read the posts before mine and the context of my response or did you think I just randomly posted that?

I'm not talking about whether he can rebound or not, I'm talking about boxing out and man to man post defense. If you are athletic and have a nose for the ball, you can rebound, but to consistently box out big people, you need a strong lower body. To consistently prevent big people from moving you in the post, you need a strong lower body.

I'm not sure what you are referring to though...

pageC4
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the tip out was amazing against the wolves. Andre Bogut does the same thing with Golden State and that tip out sends it out to the shooters immediately to do some more damage. he should continue that

Kingkanyon
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I was Responding To you saying you need a Strong lower base to rebound, that's simply not true. Rebounding has nothing to do with your Lower body, do you have to use it... sure but you don't need to have a strong lower base to use the power their, it's naturally the strongest muscle on the body. Rebounding is about effort, Hands, and positioning. Example: Kevin Garnet was a Great Rebounder in his prime, and he wasn't even close to being as big as DJ. I wasn't trying to be an ass, but I'll admit, I probably came off as one.

CP3Heliflopter
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He said you need a strong lower body to box out players consistently particularly strong players like Pekovic. He never said you needed a strong lower body to rebound and its true Pekovic was overpowering DJ all night.

The thing is players like Pekovic are very rare so its not an issue for the most part. Even players like KG struggle a bit rebounding wise against stronger guys. Look at KG vs Tim Duncan head to head rebounding wise.

Silasie
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It looks like your not reading the posts despite Agent asking if you read the posts.

Agent0
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Yea, I think he still missed it. Kingkanyon, we aren't disagreeing, but you are saying a different thing from what I'm talking about. We're making different points that do not contradict each other. They are both true, lol!

You are right, you don't need a strong lower body to rebound. It's also true that you need a strong lower body to consistently box out bigger guys and to not get pushed around in the post man to man against them.

It was one of the problems Dwight had playing against Yao Ming. It's why a guy like Duncan can back guys down and move them while a seemingly more muscular guy like Howard might seem to struggle. It's why Charles Barkley was so strong in the post, it was his lower body, not his upper. Shaq too of course, though he had both. Those guys have "donks". That goes a long way in moving people down low because you don't have to use arms, you just get low and move and they move.

Yao wasn't huge in the upper body, but his legs were massive. One on one, he murdered Dwight Howard who has a big upper body, but has a weak base.

Yao vs Howard head to head:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =howardw01

If you watched the games, Dwight had no clue how to work against Yao because he couldn't push him to get consistent good position, and then his outside game really wasn't effective.

pageC4
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My wife and I were looking at a print out of the lineups from both teams and Pekovic (285 LBS) outweighed DJ (265 LBS)by a huge margin. Twenty pounds of a difference gives on a sizable advantage on physicality when banging inside the paint. It would take a bull to matchup with Pekovic fairly

toohipcliptoslip
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The only way to stop Pecivic is to body him up early and keep him away from his sweet spot. GOOD LUCK. I would love to see Wilt or Shaq make currant jelly out of him.

TiaNation
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I love what DeAndre Jordan is doing for the Clippers this year, rebounding as much as he can and I think he's playing so much better because he's getting more minutes and Doc Rivers confidence in him. Vinny didn't have no confidence in him, and he didn't have enough minutes but Doc is having confidence in him and is preaching to him rebound, rebound. Just goes to show you how a coaches can change a lot of things

I hope DJ can continue this throughout the whole season.

tense2
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Or "Big Bell'' Walt Bellamy, Moses Malone or even Wes Unseld. wink

ArtMaggot
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toohipcliptoslip
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Anybody else voting for DJ as an allstar? When he called for the ball tonight there was no hesitation. 2.3 blocks, 13 reb 9.4 points and climbing. He showed some awesome quickness in the post. Doc is calling more plays for him. I never thought I'd be saying this. He was taking charge in the huddle. He was the talk of opponents' announcers when I watched Prime Ticket East

Akclipps
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Dj is our weapon x

ClippersDA
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What were they saying about hi? His free throw shooting needs to improve before I can say he is playing like an all star.

GRIFFINSANITY
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Also doesn't DJ have the record for consecutive games played among active players now that Andre miller got suspended

cleepers
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I noticed that too, and the best part was that everyone was listening intently.

Who would have thought that goofball would step up and lead the team?

I hope he keeps it up.

Steady818
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Didn't andre miller lose his streak when he got suspended for bulldozing BG?

toohipcliptoslip
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http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... er=ya5nbcs

As far as FT% what was Ben 41%, Wilt had six years less than 50%. Shaq had multiple years less than 50%.

FT % shouldn't be a huge issue

toohipcliptoslip
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Yes it was

D_AndreBBeater
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Andre will step it up and hopefully we can weather the storm. There are 3 tough games though, 3 western teams that may beat us though

Voyeur
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Unfortunately I had to watch the S.A. call of last night's game, but they had some valid observations about DJ. He's a good shot blocker but far to often misses rotations that the great shotblockers don't. And far too often DJ brings his hands down (or swipes) when contesting shots rather than keeping his hands up, which could do wonders.

It is downright frustrating to be honest. We are among the VERY worse teams protecting the paint. Sure, Blake may be part of the problem...but other teams have PF's that do less defensively than Blake and hold teams to lower FG% in the paint than we do. And we know DJ can't handle any bulky or talented low post center man-to-man.

I say all this not because he CAN'T do these things but because I KNOW he can! He's got the size. He's got the athleticism. He seems to have the instinct at times. Honestly, he needs a Big Man coach that will teach him not OFFENSE but DEFENSE.

toohipcliptoslip
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Cut him some slack. Remember, last yr he sucked canal water and he had the determination of a used Kleenex. We do need his offense. With BG taking more shots outside it would be nice to have somebody inside. He seems comfortable with the ball on the high pick and roll. He should be becoming the recipient. Can you imaging the paint being clogged when DJ has the ball? Keeping your hands up is easy. You just keep your hands up. He now has funkitude

I think it was Dirk. DJ had the rock and someone asked him to pass. He said something like "No I got it" and he torched the guy. There was another"up and under" where he broke the defender's ankles. Notice how well he and BG work together. All he needs is the opportunity. I think he has confidence. Do not be surprised if he's 15/15 on a consistent basis. Three assists. I was his biggest neigh sayer. As far as him guarding bigs maybe true but how many bigs can guard him?

Patience Grasshopper

Have you cast your all star vote today? Big Six

Voyeur
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One thing I notice from both DJ and Blake is their defensive stance against their guy. They crouch down low, with their forearms against the back of the opponent's big man. As far as I can tell there only ONE advantage to that...to keep their man from backing them down. That's it. Unfortunately, it limits DJ and Blake's mobility, so it's VERY easy to spin right off of them. It also makes it more difficult to defend the jump shot because our guys have to go from the crouched position to a higher one to try to put a hand in the shooter's face. It takes more energy to do that than if they were in an already more upright position. I'm not saying they shouldn't be a little crouched, but sometimes our guys are way low to try to strengthen their center of gravity. It leaves them with no versatility on defense. A guy like DJ should never be in that position. He should be upright, able to move his feet, ready to keep his hand up and possibly block a shot. It means allowing some back down admittedly, but as long as he stays in front, he can potentially block the shot or maybe even draw a charge. That's the other thing. No way you're gonna draw a charge in the crouched position. DJ and Blake are completely immobilized on D when in the crouched position. I guess the hope is that the offensive player is both slow and can't shoot.

Just not sure about our big man coach.

itsLuigi
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yeah i think dj needs a mentor. some teams have ewing and hakeem teaching there star center how to be better. i think we need one too

CP3Heliflopter
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DJ has been having a monster season. His defense is iffy at times but overall he has been a good defender this season while leading the league in rebounding.

toohipcliptoslip
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Unless you were close to the glass you couldn't see how many shots he tipped or altered. he could gave had four more blocks in the first half if finger tipping counted

jarca
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Baron Davis thinks Deandre should be an all star via Facebook

Kingkanyon
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Actually that's how you properly defend the Paint, you want to get low and use your forearm, It gives you a stronger base so you don't get backed in easily. What you don't want to do is what they and most of the league has been doing forever, is guarding with your hands, I still don't understand that. If your going to teach somebody to defend the post, you teach them to use their Forearm and Get Low, that's why Doc is a master on DEFENSE.

I personally think DJ has played Great on Defense all year, he's going to look bad some nights, that's just going to happen when he's guarding the other teams best Post player, and he's still learning how to defend each individual player their tendencies, go to moves, and counters. I do see allot of games were DJ gets scored on in one half he turns it around in the 2nd half, but I know that your not going to stop a great player, no matter how good you are on Defense, look at Shaq vs Mutombo, or Wilt vs Russel, doesn't matter how good you are as a defender Great players will score. But why I think DJ has Been Great, is he makes it truly hard on guy's and rarely do big men score on a high percentage on him, he usually keeps them in the mid 40's.

People marvel over how great a defender Anthony Davis is, but he still gets scored on just as much-if not more than Deandre Jordan, ( NBA league Pass). Heck Blake went through him like he wasn't even there.

tense2
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And he's only going to get better in the future.

ClippersDA
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He needs to be better at defending the paint before he can be DPOY - but I do think he can win most improved

tense2
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He'll continue to get better in that department too.

CP3Best
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I was one of the people that hated DJ, because he played bad, but I LOVE him this season. Best rebounder in the game right now imo. Yesterday was a showing of what he's capable of doing on defense, both him and Griffin, but too many times I see them not Challenging shots. Yesterday everyone challenged everything. THat's why I want to see them challenge shots way more. This one time DJ was guarding in the low post, his guy faked him, DJ bit, but Griffin rotated from the middle and blocked DJ's guy, cause he had nowhere to go. If they play that kind of defense, I see us with a Big 3, Twin Towers, and championship aspirations. It's just sometimes I don't see the effort to do what we did last night.

LobAngelesBlakers
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Don't know if this has been posted or not, but ESPN had the list of NBA's Top Ten centers, and DJ was on there:

  1. DeAndre Jordan, Los Angeles Clippers

TrueWARP: 8.5 | 2013-14 WARP: 4.1 | Overall rank: 20

Jordan has really become a fixture in the middle of the Clippers. He has missed just two games since the start of the 2010-11 season, and has started 187 straight games at the position. This season, he's leading the league in field goal percentage for the second straight season and is also averaging a career-best 13.4 rebounds per game.

CapsNClips
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Who was ahead of him?

LobAngelesBlakers
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INSIDER TOP CENTERS:

1. Anthony Davis, New Orleans Pelicans

TrueWARP: 17.0 | 2013-14 WARP: 5.6 | Overall rank: 8

Davis has improved his offensive efficiency by getting to the line more often. The improvements on that end have been subtle. He's using more possessions for the Pelicans, which can sometimes mean an increase in turnovers, but his rate of miscues has fallen to a minuscule number. His improvement on defense has not been so subtle. Davis leads the NBA in shot-block rate, something he seemed preordained to do coming out of Kentucky.

Cousins

2. DeMarcus Cousins, Sacramento Kings

TrueWARP: 13.4 | 2013-14 WARP: 6.0 | Overall rank: 7

Cousins has exploded on the scene this season, and if you think he is ranked too high, you didn't see him outplay Dwight Howard head-to-head in both of their meetings so far. Cousins has a league-high usage rate, and despite that hefty volume, his true shooting percentage is by far his best yet. He's also handing out more assists and grabbing more rebounds than ever before.

Drummond

3. Andre Drummond, Detroit Pistons

TrueWARP: 13.3 | 2013-14 WARP: 5.3 | Overall rank: 10

The Pistons have been the league's most mercurial team, capable of beating the league's best teams and capable of getting blown out by teams in the middle class. Drummond has been a stalwart through it all. He leads the league in offensive rebounds, both in raw total and percentage. His overall rebound percentage also leads the league. By and large, Drummond is putting up the same excellent numbers he did as a rookie, only he's doing it in 12 more minutes per game.

Howard

4. Dwight Howard, Houston Rockets

TrueWARP: 12.2 | 2013-14 WARP: 5.3 | Overall rank: 11

Howard is having a better statistical season than he did during his one season with the Lakers. However, he's still well off the level of play he established in Orlando. Howard is having an excellent season -- see the No. 11 overall rank in WARP above -- but his shot-block percentage is down by a full percent and he's averaging his fewest minutes per game since his rookie season.

Duncan

5. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs

TrueWARP: 10.4 | 2013-14 WARP: 3.5 | Overall rank: 31

Duncan struggled early in the season, and his overall PER is the lowest of his career. However, that worst-ever PER is still 20.7, which is a strong statement about just how great and consistent Duncan has been. His shooting percentage was well on the road to recovery in December, and the rest of his game seems to be intact.

Noah

6. Joakim Noah, Chicago Bulls

TrueWARP: 9.6 | 2013-14 WARP: 3.8 | Overall rank: 25

Noah was supposed to relinquish some of the larger offensive load he carried last season, but another major injury to Bulls star Derrick Rose snuffed out that plan. Chicago is again running much of its offense through the skilled Noah. This season, he's struggled to finish at the basket. However, his playmaking is even better, and he's taking better care of the ball. The defense is still there, as are all the intangibles you'd want in a third wheel.

Horford

7. Al Horford, Atlanta Hawks

TrueWARP: 9.0 | 2013-14 WARP: 3.6 | Overall rank: 30

Horford was having a career season before going down with a season-ending pectoral tear. Before that happened, Horford had become a high-usage big man who kept his efficiency high. He also remained an underrated post defender at the other end.

Lopez

8. Brook Lopez, Brooklyn Nets

TrueWARP: 8.9 | 2013-14 WARP: 2.7 | Overall rank: 52

Lopez's PER has improved for three straight seasons, reaching a career-best 25.7 in 17 games in 2013-14. That's where it will stay, too, as Lopez sits out the rest of the campaign with yet another foot injury. He has become the most skilled scoring center in the league, so let's just hope his latest procedure can keep the foot injuries at bay.

Jordan

9. DeAndre Jordan, Los Angeles Clippers

TrueWARP: 8.5 | 2013-14 WARP: 4.1 | Overall rank: 20

Jordan has really become a fixture in the middle of the Clippers. He has missed just two games since the start of the 2010-11 season, and has started 187 straight games at the position. This season, he's leading the league in field goal percentage for the second straight season and is also averaging a career-best 13.4 rebounds per game.

Gasol

10. Marc Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies

TrueWARP: 8.1 | 2013-14 WARP: 1.4 | Overall rank: 107

Gasol's shooting numbers were down from last season at the time he was hurt, but he was occupying a larger share of the Grizzlies' offense. His shot-blocking was off as well, but nevertheless, you can bet Memphis is eager to get Gasol back.

jarca
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That's an improvement. Top 10 this year and top 5 next year. But wait why isn't Hibbert in that list?

tense2
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Then there other sites which have him ranked higher:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... s/14/6/eff

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?di ... 8=✓

Seems like "all" sites have him in at least their top 10.

Good for DJ.....and the Clippers.

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