DeAndre Jordan Performance Discussion Thread (P. 23)

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CapsNClips
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I think that site is ranking the top efficiency. Either way it seems about right.

jarca
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WTF..,.. So Hibbert is # 18. Wow! Indiana should trade Hibbert for DJ then lol

ClipperPostman
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I would. DJ will be the best center in the league within the next 3 years.

tense2
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Also, look at the minutes and sort by at least 800 minutes to get a better picture of the rankings.

slestack11
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Can someone with Insider access please post the top ten centers according to this article:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/ ... rs-2013-14

I'm curious if Deandre made this list. I mean, he is leading the league in rebounds, FG%, and 3rd in blocks right now.

Kingkanyon
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I can give 2 snaps about a top 10 list, Especially one that has Anthony Davis over Boggie Causins, Out of every big man in the League he is the only guy who is truly Unstoppable, His inside game is Second to none and he can hit from outside with the best of them, He plays Good Defense and is as intense as it gets on the Court, don't get me wrong I think Anthony Davis is a Really great player especially for his age, but Most of his buckets is off people being Lazy Defensively and him hustling. From watching him (When ever he's Healthy) he's not that effective when somebody hit's him, Bigger players can dominate him in the paint, and most of his defensive skillz right now is help defending witch right now he is probably the best at right now, and he has a solid perimeter Defense game. He is a great player but he need's to do more for me to put him at number 1, to me he looks like a really Tall SF.

LobAngelesBlakers
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I literally just posted this on the other page

Voyeur
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According to Basketball Reference DJ is number 2 in Defensive Win Shares. Blake at number 8! I'm so proud of our boys.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... aders.html

Agent0
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^Tied at 3.0 with Hibbert.

"Win shares" has always intrigued me. It is a stat I've never cared much for. Defensive win shares for example is an estimate of wins contributed by a player due to his defense. I think when you rank high in multiple areas though, it tends to bode well for you. So I won't throw it away or anything, but if a guy has on of the lowest Drtg, seems to be playing good defense, and win shares also says he's doing well, then it is just another factor to support that thought that the players defense is having high impact.


In terms of Hibbert, we have to remember that last season and again this season, he's pretty average offensively against the whole league except for Miami. Miami made him look like an offensive machine, but against other teams, that isn't the case. Defensively is a different strory.

...but also remember that a stat like eff is a pretty simple box score stat, just measuring simply quantified tangible production (doesn't it just add up all the "good" and subtract all the "bad"). It isn't anything super in-depth and it doesn't measure being a monster that people shoot terrible percentages against in the paint.

If we look at PER which is a little more in-depth, takes pace into account and also the fact that not all guys are playing the same minutes into account (the reasons which can be debated in terms of value), etc

C's Playing 15+ MPG Ranked By PER

Now we have a list that probably makes more sense (Top 5: Lopez, Horford, Drummond, Howard, Pekovic), then when we add our subjective qualifications of defensive impact or lack thereof, Hibbert who is 10th in C's in PER moves closer to being a Top 5 C in the league which is what most would generally think of him.

PS: For some reason Cousins isn't coming up in the search, but he would actually be #1 among C's in PER

tense2
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Wins Produced (WP) is a stat I prefer over PER. They have him ranked #2 (I filtered it to +390 mins). Adjust to +1000 mins and I think you'll weed out the "fat" and get to the meat. Jordan is doing very well this season to say the least.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?di ... s_produced

Agent0
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Yea, I'm not huge on PER myself, just a good reference stat for how does this guys statistical production rank. I'll look more into wins produced, seems interesting

tense2
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Like PER, it's a useful tool in the "Box".

I Think you'll like this site (and Wages of Wins) once you find out how's it's calculated. Not perfect by all means (none are at this point), but they continue to improve the model as new data comes in. Based on the formula from Dave Berri of Wages of Wins Journal.

http://wagesofwins.com

See the FAQ on both sites for more info on what they put in the numbers.

CapsNClips
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I agree Jamal, 16+ rebounds in his last 3 games against Tyson, Hibbert and Drummond.

toohipcliptoslip
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"He did the Mash, he did the Monster Mash. He did the Mash, It was a graveyard smash. He did the Mash You'll catch on in a flash

HE DID THE MONSTER MASH"

Any questions about DJ?

The bottom of the bottle of cognac looms real close.

ohMEohMy!
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16 Pts, 21 Rebs, 4 Blks against the Pistons' big line up. DJ is having a great year.

jarca
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Let's see if the coaches respect him. Honestly he has zero competition on the west at the center position. Who's in the west pekovic? But Pek is on a losing team. Gasol is injured.. There is Davis but he's practically a 4

CP3Best
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He's having a great impact on our team, Positive impact, he will be monster important to us in the playoffs.

Agent0
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Gasol is back! They did remove the C spot from the ballot didn't they?

CP3Best
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Now its just frontcourt and backcourt, so I doubt DJ will make it with all the great forwards, either Love or Aldridge will be that backup forward.

what_up_clipnation83
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Dj is going to be huge for us in the playoffs this year, just imagine if we had this DJ the last 2 years in the playoffs along with this years Blake.

toohipcliptoslip
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I forgot. For some of you youngsters The Monster Mash is an old song

tense2
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Good read on the very good year Jordan is having by Steve Perrin:

http://www.clipsnation.com/2014/1/21/53 ... dan-part-1

Note: Not sure why Steve didn't mention the reason why Jordan's PPG is down this year is because he's attempting +2 shot less then last year, other wise he'd be real close to what he was last season.

pageC4
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Doc has emphasized defense with them. Even after high scoring games he would try and remind the players that offense is fools gold. It is defense that will determine the outcome

itsLuigi
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i can't believe Deandre wasn't picked for team USA. he should have been there over faried and drummond

namzug
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Yeah, I was surprised he wasn't there. I hope he uses it as motivation to continue improving. I still feel he has a lot of potential, but get worried that not getting picked as an all star and this snub could set him back. I'm hoping he plays with a chip on his shoulder.

We lack a better perimeter defender, he is really at such a disadvantage compared to the other bigs.

ClippersDA
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His tweet indicated he is pissed

ClippersDA
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He should do what parsons said he was going to do - use it as motivation.

fray_27
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I definitely think faried over DJ is really stupid DJ has grown immensely and they have Tyson chandler on the team why for his defensive purposes and DJ is playing better defensively thank chandler faried or Drummond his 5th in DPOY award that's a bunch of Bull

namzug
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I was listening to Clipperblog live's Clips vs. Okc podcast, and Andrew Han had an interesting idea of giving DJ the ball when he is out there with the bench units. I like that idea, for all the same points that Andrew was making. I think developing a post presence with the bench could help us by making the defense have another thing to worry about.

Jerediscool
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Baby steps man, DJ took a huge step this year ready, we don't need to over confuse the guy... Maybe becoming am offensive option can be included next year

namzug
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I know what you are saying, but thought it could be helpful when he is out with the bench. I'm advocating to run the offense through him, just give him a few more looks with the offense. There are times where he has some good match ups, and I would like to see us take advantage of that as a team. Not to mention I think DJ has twice the footwork that Dwight does, just doesn't have the best hands.

Jerediscool
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Clippers offense, starters or the bench, have 0 offense that goes through DJ. He doesn't have any plays. All his offense and scoring comes from hustle and crashing the boards. I think that is best for him so he doesn't try to do too much. I don't think he has a very high BBall IQ so its best to just say, "go run and get rebounds, if you have an opportunity to put it back in, then go get your buckets"

CP3Best
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This guy is doing WORK! He has put to rest every doubt I had about him, and NOW he's starting to protect the paint more as well instead of just rebounding.

The_Blake_Show
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At the end of last season I remember reading all these post about trading Deandre Jordan With reason of course because of his lack of performance but I always made the argument that VDN had a lot to do with it giving people the example of Bull's Noah performance before and after VDN. Long story short, Once I heard that the Clippers new coach was Doc I knew that DJ would be a completely different player and be utilized by his strong attributes without exposing his weaknesses or expect stuff from DJ that hasn't been taught to him yet like VDN would.

With that being said, what I'm trying to get at is that DJ is slowly being incorporated into the offense. Don't need DJ to be an offensive force when defensively DJ has been a monster and a league leading rebounding machine not to mention playing more minutes especially in the fourth quarter and staying out of foul trouble. Off the court DJ may be a clown but on the court DJ's work ethic has been impressive. I give Doc the majority of the credit but I also give Blake and CP3 credit for giving DJ the opportunity to develop and to continue developing. People forget that DJ is only 25 years old. Players peak at 27 years old. That's two more years of solid developing for DJ.

These past two seasons we all criticized DJ for not living up to his salary in terms of production but like I said before part of the blame goes to VDN. This season DJ has lived up to his salary and some. To throw a comparisons out there, DJ has Tyson Chandler's numbers from last season and one can argue that defensively DJ has surpassed Tyson Chandler at 31 years old. That was everyones target on the "Let's trade DJ" thread but thanks to Doc DJ is still a Clipper and a much improved player.

There are three questions that arise from DJ's new found development:

  1. Can DJ continue developing after this season?

  2. Does DJ need to be an offensive force?

  3. What's gonna happen in the summer of 2015 when DJ is a free agent?

I have my answers I want to read your input on these questions!

tense2
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I think DJ's BBall IQ is much better then you give him credit for. His BB IQ is just fine to handle more offensive plays for him.

CP3Best
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We need DJ more then we need Grange buddy! 14 rebounds a game is what he does, along with changing every shot in his vicinity!

ClipperKyle32
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Not just that, he makes players pass up shots and pass causing turnovers. So you can say he Rebounds, Blocks Shots, Alters Shots , and forces turnovers.

CapsNClips
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I was talking strictly on offense in crunch time. If we are going against Pop in the WCF and he decides to hack a DJ we aren't going to rely on DJ's slight improvement at the line to determine our Finals fate.

And I'm not sure DJ changes "every shot in his vicinity"

DJ allows 51% at the rim. Technically he lets more shots go in at the rim than not. Still needs work.

danielson
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DJ is an average defender. Howard, Noah, Duncan, Gasol, Chandler, Hibbert and Sanders are all better defenders. DJ is much improved but he still has away to go to be top tier

Kerley
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I think rebounding is a defensive trait that gets grossly over looked. Good defense is worthless if you don't have an elite rebounder to secure the defensive effort. DJ leads the league in rebounds and that alone puts him on the floor in the last 2 minutes of a close game.

Not to mention DJ has been nearly perfect in late game defensive assignments. Jordan IS top tier. It's time to put that argument to rest, he's been doing this ALL season long.

ClipperKyle32
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That Is when we are wrong when we try to catogorize players. Deandre Jordan is a defensive player! Blocks, Alters Shots, DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS The other players you listed are DEFENDERS. They do all the things a defensive....

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toohipcliptoslip
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Which centers do you feel can lock down their man? I still believe that if he ever gets that back to the basket move down he and BG can get Centers/PF's in a lot of foul trouble. I have yet to figure out why in blow out games do they not work on it. DJ can get a starting center in foul trouble I don't care if he hits his shots or not. He has really good form BUT-- so do his FT's

BoomRizzle
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It's not even so much about DJ "locking" someone down. The most telling stat is Opponent FG% At Rim, and in that stat DJ is absolutely TERRIBLE. DJ is at 50.8% where in a list of people that play over 20 mins a game and average greater than 1.5 blocks per game, he is 2nd highest with only Pau Gasoft being higher at 54.9%. Even Timmy D is better than DJ at 49.1%.

This is why DJ is an "average" defender. Sure he alters some shots, yes he rebounds amazingly, but he can't guard the paint to save his life. It would be amazingly beneficial to the team to get this number to sub 45%.

ClippersDA
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Agreed. Not sure why this ended up in the jj injury thread but I concur about dj. He seems to get scored on pretty easily. Weak side shot blocking doesn't mean everything

toohipcliptoslip
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Interesting!

A_DOG_NAMED_BUD
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This has been his problem for most of the season. The blocks are nice and look in the stat line, but I would prefer he play better all around defense. Protect the rim, without the necessarily getting blocks.

ANYWAY, I thought this was a JJ Redick thread lol. I'm really excited to hear he's rehabbing and getting closer to returning. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

wessleejr
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JJ Reddick thread discussing DJ wow I thought there is an update for JJ's injury Very Happy

Icecoldclipper
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That stat seems to be more of a team defensive stat than one player for it and then not taking into account when other players get offensive rebounds and second chance points seem sketchy. Add on we try to make it more of a point to run off shooters if DJ was not protecting the rim at a much higher level the team would have far more problems than it currently has now. Een watching the games its far in between when an opposing center has gone off against us if talking man defense.

As for the actual topic and legit discussion that JJ has made a huge stride going through a practice with full contact. Would see Doc returning him April 3rd so during the team road trip the road does not tear on his body in any unneeded way.

Agent0
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why did you say "even Timmy D is better than DJ"l is that surprising though? Duncan is an elite defender and the Spurs hold opponents to the 4th lowest pts/possession in the league, I don't think we should be surprised.

I wouldn't say those numbers imply DJ is terrible, Gasol's numbers for example are terrible. They say DJ isn't elite, but we didn't think that anyways, just that he's better and good. The stat is a good starting point, but like all stats we need some context.

DJ can sometimes be lax in contesting shots he feels he has no chance at, but the amount of penetration the team allows affects the numbers, the pick and roll defense can affect it because if a big is chasing a small who has gotten free on the pick and roll, they are within five feet when that guy is making the layup. Offensive rebounds given up also plays a part.

I think DJ has work to do there, sometimes his timing can be a bit off, but he isn't terrible by any means.

ClippersDA
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He watches the ball too much and loses sight of players who are close to or in easy scoring position.

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