We Got the Wrong System! What System?

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clippersblue
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We need to make a big choice here; what kind of system are we going to put in? First, we need to be a good defensive team no matter what. That allows your team to get out in transition, but our point guard doesn't like that kind of offense, but Blake and DJ like it. Are we going to run a pick and roll offense? that doesn't work because we only have two players who can shoot: Barnes and Crawford. The main problem is that Blake and Chris don't really compliment each other unless we get a stretch 5. Blake can't shoot. Chris is better with a pick and pop player like David West. Big decision. I want Sloan.

smittywerb
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It all depends on the development of Blake. If Blake can develop a 50% jumper and an efficient post move, this offense could go anywhere.

What I think we need though is floor spacers. This will allow BG to go 1on1 and use his athleticism against the defender instead of relying on skill. If he develops the skill, all the better, but right now we need to use what he has.

We need a strong center (Tyson-esque or Howard-esque) who can lock down the paint and prevent penetration. Im pretty sure if we go after floor spacers, we might be going after guys who are defensive liabilities so we need a clean up guy to hold the paint down when our defenders get broken down. Allen at the 2 would be a good fit and anyone who could shoot at the 3 would also be a good fit.

So on offense we need to spread the floor, and on defense we need someone who can lock down the paint.

Diamond909
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I agree with you guys.

cps is good and all but i feel the team rely on him for everything instead of playing and make their own shots down the stretch.

blake need more development in his all around game and the freethrows are killing the team.

DJ I dont know, what to say but how long is this guy have to be in the league to show that hes not a push over.

Grillinnap
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We went to the sewage system in the last four games of the series.

CP3Heliflopter
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We shouldn't run because running doesn't win you anything. Look at Denver. Overhyped in the regular season and got destroyed in the postseason because they have a shitty half-court offense. You win in the postseason by playing in the half-court not by using run and gun. The offense is fine we just need better shooters(though running plays would help). Our defensive system gets exposed badly by great shooting teams. Our bigs are also not good enough defensively but only a few frontcourts like the Griz can really abuse this.

divinebeast
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Denver didn't lose because of half court execution

They lost because they couldn't guard the three to save their lives and George Karl refused to put Iggy the best perimeter defender in the NBA on Curry

Diamond909
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so true.

CP3Heliflopter
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divinebeast wrote:
CP3Heliflopter wrote:
We shouldn't run because running doesn't win you anything. Look at Denver. Overhyped in the regular season and got destroyed in the postseason because they have a shitty half-court offense. You win in the postseason by playing in the half-court not by using run and gun. The offense is fine we just need better shooters(though running plays would help). Our defensive system gets exposed badly by great shooting teams. Our bigs are also not good enough defensively but only a few frontcourts like the Griz can really abuse this.

Denver didn't lose because of half court execution

They lost because they couldn't guard the three to save their lives and George Karl refused to put Iggy the best perimeter defender in the NBA on Curry

True but run and gun teams rarely ever win chips. Last team to do it were the Magic Lakers and they were stacked and had a great coach.

clippersblue
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I can't think of any run and gun teams beside the Lakes 80's that have done it. Even in 1990, Dunlevy turned the laker offense into half court. I think getting rid of our physical players, k mart and that other guy, what his name Evans, hurt us. If you watched our fourth quarter, all the guys were afraid to shoot, except for Chris. Odom can't be on this team any more. He's great defender and rebounder, but man he needs to be able to hit a jumper. But, to Memphis's credit, we really lost because they are almost a perfect team.

gman
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Im sorry. how can sloan teach blake how to shot?? i thought Tate was the one helping BG on that department. By the way, bg will, WILL have a reliable jumper next season.

Our system isnt any different than that of okc or the knicks. okc relies heavely on TWO great scorers, one of them an elite scorer. the knick rely on Melo. I havent seen anything different from them.

What we need to do is get better on D. And get a coach that has the balls to make a big decision, like pulling billups.

Weather that coach is sloan, nate, svg, jvg, or vinny who finaly learns from his mistakes, clips need to be smart about their decision.

Agent0
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Running isn't the issue. You have to run selectively, and be a team that's capable of taking advantage of transition. The problem is if you run and can't execute effectively in the half-court, or if you sacrifice rebounding and defense to run. The problem isn't running.

Of course KG is the perfect compliment to Paul and Blake, but a healthy Frye is another option. Paul and Blake aren't the best compliments. Paul doesn't throw lobs when guys spin off their defender often, he doesn't shoot the three from the kick out, and he likes half court. Blake can't shoot, isn't as great at rolling as people think and likes posting up and isolation and being a playmaker.

LuvMeSumMEE
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It's all about scheme versatility. If you're not completely versatile, then you have to make up for it in some other area. The running teams don't lose in the playoffs because they're "Running Teams." They lose because there's some sort of deficiency that gets exposed in certain match-ups. The key is being scheme versatile, having position versatility throughout the roster, and remaining efficient when you have to adapt to other rosters around the league. This is the NBA. If there's something wrong with your team, then you'll get EXPOSED.......and the only hope is to make up for it by overcompensating in some other area.

I think this team is set up pretty well, but they're not talented enough from top to bottom........and there's still a couple of holes that if not plugged up will keep this team from ever maximizing their potential.

ClipsGForce
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Why do people want a system? It's just scream "Predictable". I like a mixture of running and half court scheme, if there is something like this. Run when its necessary such as creating turnover, but have a decent half court set if we need to slow down the game. We could always work on half court set by having more players on motion. I feel like if we run more off screen and cuts, we would be unpredictable in regards.

pageC4
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Well, i know spoelstra has a pretty solid system in miami. I dont know the name of it, but it was similar to what SVG was using. Spoelstra uses LEbron to drive into the paint and he instructs every other player to stay beyond the arc, so Lebron can pass out of the paint and give it to the open man for a three.

A system just sets the players up to maximize the players talents or create opportunities

KP
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this talk of systems is just something that was created by people who dont know enough about the game to talk about specifics tbh

I could list every coach in the nba and I'd bet not 1 person can put a name of their system on even half of them lol

but for some reason, we need a system we need a system lmaoooo

Spoelstra won a ring last yr... and you dont know the name of his system... then when describing it you described what an iso play is lmaoooo... which is something the clippers do often... BUT WE NEED A SYSTEM!!!!!lol

ftr... the only reason those iso's that the heat run work are 1- they have the best player in the world and 2- pat riley has surrounded him with shooters

thats why the heats most potent lineup is with bron playing at 4... it allows him to be surrounded by 4 shooters (bosh, battier, wade, chalmers)... thats why the 1st step to beating the heat is having 2 big men bron cant guard FORCING spoelstra to play haslem or birdman more than he wants too because neither can shoot limiting the shooters on the floor bron can pass to

which gets back to my whole point... our roster is the problem... not only do we not have the best player in the world but we have less shooters and for some reason this is the coaches fault lol

I understand tho... its the same thing that happened to Spoelstra after they lost to dallas... miami couldnt make the next step without a better coach... luckily pat riley didnt listen to fans and media

hopefully dts wont either

Voyeur
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I'm not even sure it's about a "system" per se. As I watch these playoff games, it seems to me these teams always have players that go to the basket when their big man has the ball in the post and gets doubled. Someone slides in from the back door or just cuts straight to the basket. For some reason, that's missing on our team. Sometimes Willie does that with Blake but we need more consistency there. I also noticed last night, Marc Gasol had the ball from about 15 ft, waiting for Zach Randolph to post his man down low. It's a very successful play that works because Marc is so deadly from mid-range. We kinda do that. But it's Blake, who's not a great shooter anyway, waiting for DJ, who's can't quite post on guys as strongly as Z-Bo. Usually it's about the lob in this case.

Also, I'd love to figure out a way, perhaps through pick-n-roll plays, to get our small forwards to post smaller players through mismatches. Both Caron and Barnes are quite good when posting low.

pageC4
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KP wrote:

this talk of systems is just something that was created by people who dont know enough about the game to talk about specifics tbh

I could list every coach in the nba and I'd bet not 1 person can put a name of their system on even half of them lol

but for some reason, we need a system we need a system lmaoooo

I disagree with you. I dont know the specifics of the miami system, but it isnt iso. what i described was a play that makes the defense look like it will be lebron taking the ball into the paint, in response the defense goes inside to try and block or stop lebron or to anticipate getting the rebound off of the sure to be made shot lebron takes, and they leave shooters open in the three point range. We clearly couldnt run that system because we dont have the three point shooters miami does, so that system wouldnt fit us. What i was doing was defending the idea of having a system in place. Having a system is not overrated, and if you think its simply a premise used by people that dont know anything about basketball then i guess all coahces that use systems dont know much, so you're wrong about that.

KP wrote:
Spoelstra won a ring last yr... and you dont know the name of his system... then when describing it you described what an iso play is lmaoooo... which is something the clippers do often... BUT WE NEED A SYSTEM!!!!!lol

ftr... the only reason those iso's that the heat run work are 1- they have the best player in the world and 2- pat riley has surrounded him with shooters

No, i dont know the name of his system, but it was effective enough to win a ring last year, so clearly it has worked. The clippers do iso plays alot, but again what i was describing is different its a play designed to leave the perimeter players opne..the focus is not lebron but the shooters that will be left open as a result of the defense thinking its going to be an iso play. The term 'iso' in basketball stands for isolation and is when 4 players on the team spread out while the ballhandler takes advantage of the opportunity to go 1 on 1 with the defender. So at the onset it looks like an iso because LEbron is going one on one with the defender, and if he were to finish then it would be an iso, but that isnt the desgin of the play. Its desinged to make it look like an iso, and the defens collapses in to try and defend LEbron, then the mistake is made the perimeter shooters are left open and this is when the defense falls into LEbrons trap...leaving Allen, Bosh, and others open for the three...the true design of the play.

that is different from the true iso play we do which is when chris does go one on one to drive and take advantage of a defender (usually his classic layups or tear drops)..he isnt setting it up for open three pointers consistently because...we dont have good shooters.

Clearly the system teh heat employ wouldnt work with the Clippers. We do however agree on one thing that the Heat do have the best player in the world and great shooters to maximize the potential on that team. We couldnt run that system, which is why i never said the clippers should use a system. The argument i made above is that systems do work and that they do have a place in the NBA, if they didnt teams wouldnt use them.

Also, to KP: FYI

Miami and Erik Spoelstra play a five-out system, with all five guys moving around the 3-point arc as the Heat run through a series of rehearsed actions while hunting for gaps in the defense. They were inspired by the orlando magics...four out one in system. So you are wrong what i described isnt iso..read it for yourself to see a brief descriotion of this system

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/909 ... ate-league

tense2
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^That system was called, Lebron, Wade, Bosh and some really good roll players.

Just know who to give the right guys the majority of the minutes is what the very good to great coaches understand.

pageC4
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Its seems that easy but see my link above on GRantland..miami was inspired by the orlando magics system. so they arent just running isos, but of course the ir players make it work beautifully. we couldnt run that here

tense2
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^They probably couldn't run in all but a handful of teams...because of the players.

Don't have to be all-stars players, just the right players.

pageC4
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Exactly, its no surprise that the two teams that could run that effectively were the Howard led orlando magic and this years heat.

Diamond909
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i know, copycaters lol

pageC4
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hey if it works do it

Diamond909
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pageC4 wrote:
Diamond909 wrote:
i know, copycaters lol
hey if it works do it

isent not so impressive? if u get the same guy that used it on another team that's fine but a different coach to use someone esles Eh! is just not the same because that coach couldn't come up with his own system to win.

tense2
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^All coaches incorporated some variation of "others" systems in their coaching philosophy.

KP
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@pagec4

what miami runs, what orlando ran, what tonjanovic's rockets ran, and what the clippers run are all iso's... when we run iso's for cp3 it doesnt often end with a cp3 layup, it often ends with a corner 3

because the iso's draw the double team and the best players in the world often pass out of double teams to the open player... on miami that player is always a shooter

look at the 1st video in the link you provided... bron is in the post ISOLATED, if the double team does not come what do you think he is gonna do?? I'll tell you, he will DESTROY the man guarding him, there will be no passing lol... why would it only be an iso if he tries to score?? that doesnt make sense... you cant pass out of an iso?? you cant double team in an iso??

when you say the focus is not lebron you are wrong... the focus is ALWAYS lebron, thats why the defense will collapse on him leaving the 3 pt shooter open

miami's "system" is VERY similiar to ours tbh... and it likely wont work against the grizz just like ours didnt so I hope they have a back up plan cause the grizz got better defense than the bulls and better offense too... and zbo is going to force haslem and birdman to play alot while gasol is going to treat bosh similiar to how he treated DJ

Diamond909
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I guess lol

KP
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this.

pageC4
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So i just provided you a link with a source that clearly an article describing the system, but it is still an iso system because you say it is? You should read the article. the first time i had been aware of this system was when ESPN analysts were breaking down Eric Spoelstras system, so you are wrong, but again if you think im making it up read the article it isnt isos. if so they wouldnt call it what it is they would call it isos..but again somehow your word carrys more weight than the guy that wrote it so he must be wrong. And somehow your calling it isos makes it right but ESPN analysts are wrong?

Also, what we run here isnt that same system because we dont have shooters. the first year that Billups and butler were here we did see that to an extent. Billups and Butler would do that well, and Butler was the recipient of an assis that he would convert to a corner three. not anymore though butlers shooting and billups to an extent have cooled during the course of this year and CP3 doenst have three point shooters that he can trust, so no we arent doing the same thing here in clipper land.

clipper*joe
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Very impressed!

Repped.

clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
KP wrote:
@pagec4

what miami runs, what orlando ran, what tonjanovic's rockets ran, and what the clippers run are all iso's... when we run iso's for cp3 it doesnt often end with a cp3 layup, it often ends with a corner 3

because the iso's draw the double team and the best players in the world often pass out of double teams to the open player... on miami that player is always a shooter

look at the 1st video in the link you provided... bron is in the post ISOLATED, if the double team does not come what do you think he is gonna do?? I'll tell you, he will DESTROY the man guarding him, there will be no passing lol... why would it only be an iso if he tries to score?? that doesnt make sense... you cant pass out of an iso?? you cant double team in an iso??

when you say the focus is not lebron you are wrong... the focus is ALWAYS lebron, thats why the defense will collapse on him leaving the 3 pt shooter open

miami's "system" is VERY similiar to ours tbh... and it likely wont work against the grizz just like ours didnt so I hope they have a back up plan cause the grizz got better defense than the bulls and better offense too... and zbo is going to force haslem and birdman to play alot while gasol is going to treat bosh similiar to how he treated DJ

So i just provided you a link with a source that clearly an article describing the system, but it is still an iso system because you say it is? You should read the article. the first time i had been aware of this system was when ESPN analysts were breaking down Eric Spoelstras system, so you are wrong, but again if you think im making it up read the article it isnt isos. if so they wouldnt call it what it is they would call it isos..but again somehow your word carrys more weight than the guy that wrote it so he must be wrong. And somehow your calling it isos makes it right but ESPN analysts are wrong?

Also, what we run here isnt that same system because we dont have shooters. the first year that Billups and butler were here we did see that to an extent. Billups and Butler would do that well, and Butler was the recipient of an assis that he would convert to a corner three. not anymore though butlers shooting and billups to an extent have cooled during the course of this year and CP3 doenst have three point shooters that he can trust, so no we arent doing the same thing here in clipper land.

Page, ISO's and systems aren't mutually exclusive. An ISO is technically a play that is called. What KP is describing, to me, is spot on. It's an ISO with options. The ISO can give LBJ the option to take it himself, or give it to his 4 options...depending what the defense gives them.

pageC4
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of course not, but the whole conversation got started when clipsgforce said that:

"Why do people want a system? It's just scream "Predictable". I like a mixture of running and half court scheme, if there is something like this. Run when its necessary such as creating turnover, but have a decent half court set if we need to slow down the game. We could always work on half court set by having more players on motion. I feel like if we run more off screen and cuts, we would be unpredictable in regards."

I responded with

" Well, i know spoelstra has a pretty solid system in miami. I dont know the name of it, but it was similar to what SVG was using. Spoelstra uses LEbron to drive into the paint and he instructs every other player to stay beyond the arc, so Lebron can pass out of the paint and give it to the open man for a three. A system just sets the players up to maximize the players talents or create opportunities"

miami uses a system similar to what orlando ran-four out one in, and for some reason KP tells me that what miami is using is isos that its what we used here. I understand the iso play but my point is that miami does have a system and people have recognized it. Now KP seems intend to argue that what miami is doing is an iso system...thats the debate. again their system is modeled after orlandos, its kind of like a decoy system that is focus to leave the shooters open.

KP
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@pagec4

I dont know... maybe if I typed my last post in a bleacher report and posted the link then you would understand what i was saying smh

just watch the video on the link that you provided and you will see an iso play

"its kind of like a decoy system that is focus to leave the shooters open"... what??? they are literally spreading out all 5 players to open the middle of the court up then they are simply giving the ball to their best player, thats an iso play.... I dont care if he shoots, if he passes, or if its a turnover... thats still an iso play

its literally the same thing lebron has been running his entire career... the difference is 1- he plays with more shooters now than he ever has 2- he is a better passer now than he ever was and 3- he has developed post game which allows him to go slower and be able to see where the double is coming from so he can make the appropriate pass... those 3 things together equal rings

its also the reason Vinny said he runs the chris paul offense... then followed that with "Im sure lebron is going to have the ball".... because when you have 1 of the best players in the world, spreading out and giving him the ball is an excellent idea... this is LITERALLY why they say great players create shots for others

we'll just agree to disagree i guess... but again, if you watch the video in the link YOU PROVIDED as proof you will see an iso play

kjavis
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everyone been too worried about BG developing his 'jumper', in the process his inside game has suffered, he just hasnt been the monster 'inside' that he been the last 2 seasons and that is obviously reflected in his drop in numbers this season

dom1
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Ive been saying this all along...Repped 1oo%.. We need a pick and pop big that can play alongside Blake down low

toohipcliptoslip
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1, As far as copying, plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery.

2 I would rather eat steak and kidney pie than agree with Cleepers (It smells like the men's room at the NYC bus station) BUT he's right.

Our team is like an aging platypus. Part duck, part beaver, lays eggs and is arthritic, moves slowly and gets eaten by predators. (yeah I know there aren't any predators in Aus --except the gorgeous Sheilas in Sydney who love Yanks. Go there)

The problem is our roster. As far as BG's shooting 50% a jumper is too much to ask. I'd settle for close to 40% and it will happen next yr. As well he will be able to take almost any 4 or 5 off the dribble. His ft% will be 75%. He will have a post up game as sure as the sun riseth in the MFing east. A BET TENSE?

We don't have post players or shooters.

Remember try putting a square peg in a board with no hole. That's us

Miami's system is based on the fact that LBK is the point guard and he's surrounded by shooters. Tony Parker on steroids. With the Chauncey and Hill of Ur (yore for those of U who don't know the fu*king difference) and the DJ we expected things would have been different. LAL probably will amnesty Pau. If we can dump DJ and if his knee is ok, you want pick and pop? He ain't gonna beat out his hermano. He maybe $$$ but for $5mill if you want pick and, pop. worth it

To be good we will have to go over the cap this year till we dump Butler and LO. That assumes we can flush DJ packed with Caron. Bledsoe is trade bait alone. Somebody might bight. Can anybody say "Malik Wayans"?

Most of you pups don't know about Clipper Luck. You can't make a silk purse out of this squad.

clippersblue
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A good system is like a sixth man on the court. The reason I created this post is because I remember how the Utah Jazz decimated the 1996 Lakers, a far superior team by using a system, the Flex offense, that's the sytem's name. Memphis has a system. They run high screens at the top, and screen the screener and get the ball inside. We need something in place to keep everyone involved. Hire Sloan.

toohipcliptoslip
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kjavis wrote:
smittywerb wrote:
It all depends on the development of Blake. If Blake can develop a 50% jumper and an efficient post move, this offense could go anywhere.

*snip*

everyone been too worried about BG developing his 'jumper', in the process his inside game has suffered, he just hasnt been the monster 'inside' that he been the last 2 seasons and that is obviously reflected in his drop in numbers this season

The reason he's not Fred Munster inside is that they clog the paint. Malone, Brand and Zbo to name a few only became dangerous when the developed a jumper and shot 75% FT. Blake has the advantage that he can beat any PF off the dribble

Jamal would have to start unless we got EJ but

Paul> Stockton, BG ~~~ Malone. This his taylor made for Sloane. If we don't get him we're nuts. Reagan was president into his late 70's. Carter is still going strong and Picasso was an ass*ole till near 90.

smittywerb
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kjavis wrote:
smittywerb wrote:
It all depends on the development of Blake. If Blake can develop a 50% jumper and an efficient post move, this offense could go anywhere.

*snip*

everyone been too worried about BG developing his 'jumper', in the process his inside game has suffered, he just hasnt been the monster 'inside' that he been the last 2 seasons and that is obviously reflected in his drop in numbers this season

As TooHip has explained, all the jumping and dunking has stopped because teams have gathered enough film to gameplan for blake and now the paint is packed. Blake can be aggressive all he wants, but I don't expect him to score on 2-3 players in the paint.

If he develops his jumper, teams will stick him and then triple threat will come into play.

prokreation
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100% AGREE!

If we bring back Vinny, a part of my soul will die.

GET SLOAN.

clipper*joe
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Settle down Mike Smith.

We better hurry up and nab Sloan cause it seems the Jazz are starting to feel sorry for him after trying 2 seasons to get a gig. now they want to offer him a token office job cause no one is biting what he's selling. people should get the hint...

LuvMeSumMEE
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The game has passed Sloan by. He's like the Joe Gibbs of the NBA. Sometimes you try to come back and things aren't quite the way you remembered them...

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