Former Coach: Coaches Are Not Responsible for Outcomes

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clipper*joe
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Good read and just in time for those that are losing patience with not finding that "special" coach. Very Happy

Ironically, it quotes JVG to make a point.

A Former NBA Coach Argues That Coaches Are Not Responsible for Outcomes

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/05/30/ ... -outcomes/

ClippersDA
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OK fine, it's a players' league - however...I totally disagree. A coach does a few things that absolutely determine outcome:

1.) Rotations and time outs

2.) Motivation!!!! (VDN clearly did not have this down - the players weren't even listening to him half the time, you could tell).

3.) Swagger (kind of goes to point 2). I totally agree with those who believe Vinny destroyed DJ's confidence (not a DJ apologist, but I do see something here). DJ was playing really well at the beginning of the year and Vinny was so worried about keeping his job, he was not thinking that DJ needed a bit of confidence to keep the improvements going. I feel like DJ just lost motivation and steam due to lack of confidence instilled in him by the coach.

4.) Xs and Os - has a coach that wasn't a good strategist ever won a Title (and I do NOT count Spoelstra, when you have Lebron, it's not a level playing field. )

namzug
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The so called best coaches have systems and find players to fit the mold and are flexible to fit the players into their spots. Look at the spurs the phil Jackson led teams. i think a coach could be more important than paul resigning. on top of giving us an identity and system to fall back on there are all the points listed above by clippersda. if this were the case why didn't vinny succeed. i believe we had a better team than Memphis with more talent.

clipperboy24
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A "former coach" lol. Maybe he is looking for some justification of why he is a former coach and not current coach

GhostShip
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Repped High Quality Post

Lol just silly. Today I actually just watched the round table on nba TV. Everyone said a very good coach is needed to win a ring. SHAQ. Barkley. Steve Kerr Steve smith. Chris Webber Reggie miller and Brent berry. For every one article that says coaches are nor important there are thousands that say they are. I just laughed when read the title

tense2
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Excellent find CJ. David Berri chronicled that in his book "Stumbling on Wins" in 2009. Recommended reading.

Basically some coaches can make a difference, but most don't. It's about the talent you have.

tense2
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Read the book "Stumbling on Wins" and their study and you won't be laughing anymore.

GhostShip
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Yea. I'll check it out thanks for the advice love good sport books

GhostShip
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Don't see it with the plays been called. Rotations and defensive assignments. A coach has a huge impact on each and every game. Having a good coach can be a huge advantage.

tense2
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One of the biggest value a "good" coach has is knowing who to play, who not to play and when. The opposite goes for a coach who isn't very good.

clipperboy24
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tense2 wrote:
GhostShip wrote:
Don't see it with the plays been called. Rotations and defensive assignments. A coach has a huge impact on each and every game. Having a good coach can be a huge advantage.

One of the biggest value a "good" coach has is knowing who to play, who not to play and when. The opposite goes for a coach who isn't very good.

So it obviously make a huge deal. Way to prove the other sides point... Wait for it hear comes a winking emoticon from you

Cliptonyte
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Rick Pitino's Celtics were 17-27 and once Jim O'Brien took over they went 24-24 the rest of the season. It sure looks like there was some influence of outcome there to me...

namzug
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Okay, I think its all getting the point is getting a little lost in translation. A great coach can only do so much with no or even worse bad talent. Would spoelstra be leading the heat to the playoffs with the wizards squad who seems to be up and coming possibly but i doubt it. Does a good coach get the best out of his players like a popovich with neal, green, diaw and so on. Does a good coach maximize what you can get with the talent he has, i think so. We saw what happened to the lakers, which i wont lie about was worried about when the season was about to start. Look at pheonix with a mediocre squad (being nice) you could put your choice of coach and wouldn't make the playoffs. With that said i believe our squad with a great coach would be a large threat to contend for the title.

Point is a great coach can only take you so far, but its a two street and a bad coach can hold great talent back as well.

CP3Heliflopter
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^This. The majority of coaches don't make a difference because they are average. However, a good coach can do a lot more with good talent than a bad coach. A good coach can maximize talent but if there isn't much talent to begin with they won't get far.

Coaches aren't miracle workers. They can't make bad players good or make a good player a superstar. However, they can help maximize their talents and abilities.

tense2
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clipperboy24 wrote:
tense2 wrote:
GhostShip wrote:
Don't see it with the plays been called. Rotations and defensive assignments. A coach has a huge impact on each and every game. Having a good coach can be a huge advantage.

One of the biggest value a "good" coach has is knowing who to play, who not to play and when. The opposite goes for a coach who isn't very good.

So it obviously make a huge deal. Way to prove the other sides point... Wait for it hear comes a winking emoticon from you

WTF your problem. What a dick.

clipperboy24
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^^^^ yikes getting a little sensitive. Apparently doesn't like being called out. Crazy because you don't seem to mind having it go the other way

jarca
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We don't have a gm last yr. vinny pretty much pick the roster when he decided they we needed a stretch 4. Basically picked odom over Evans and Martin. So vinny gets All the blame and deservedly so.

LuvMeSumMEE
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I see what you're saying, but Lamar Odom isn't really a stretch 4. He's a tough matchup, and he's a versatile piece........but for the most part, opponents are hoping he shoots the ball...

toohipcliptoslip
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KMart would never return. When Evans was with us he was a huge offensive liability. He dropped every ball that was given to him and shot less that 50% FT. Now he's a monster. Clipper luck not a bad decision. LO was a gamble but in his prime he could play almost every position and he averaged 10 rb/36 min this yr.

Some of you new guys don't know Clipper Luck. We should have a thread where everybody gives their favorite one. BG's knee doesn't count

Sam Cassell's 8 second SNAFU is mine.

LuvMeSumMEE
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
jarca wrote:
We don't have a gm last yr. vinny pretty much pick the roster when he decided they we needed a stretch 4. Basically picked odom over Evans and Martin. So vinny gets All the blame and deservedly so.

KMart would never return. When Evans was with us he was a huge offensive liability. He dropped every ball that was given to him and shot less that 50% FT. Now he's a monster. Clipper luck not a bad decision. LO was a gamble but in his prime he could play almost every position and he averaged 10 rb/36 min this yr.

Some of you new guys don't know Clipper Luck. We should have a thread where everybody gives their favorite one. BG's knee doesn't count

Sam Cassell's 8 second SNAFU is mine.

The guys from my favorite Clipper era all just barely missed each other, or were hurt, or whatever reason. I just wish they could've played a couple of games together. It's not really "Clipper Luck" per say, but it is to me as a fan cause I wanted all of those guys to play togther...

With Larry Brown as the Head Coach I would've enjoyed watching:

Mark Jackson/Gary Grant

Ron Harper/World B. Free/Bo Kimble

Dominique Wilkins/Kenny Norman

Danny Manning/Michael Cage/Charles Smith

Benoit Benjamin/Stanley Roberts

The pieces don't work for a successful team, but that's my favorite Clipper hodgepodge team. They only missed each other by a couple years, except for World B. Free......wish I could've seen my team play for like 1 game......Sad

Agent0
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They were hoping Odom's shooting would come back after getting in shape and being back home. If it had worked it would have been a great move because Odom was the best big man team defender by a good margin this year. He was not inferior to KMart in defensive impact though they had different strengths, he rebounded better.

If Clippers had gotten 13/10/3 per 36 Odom who could score and hit about 34% 3PT, it's a WHOLE different team. All season long we were sort of waiting for something like that, never came.

The article basically says all average coaches are generally the same, but great coaches give big impact. The methods of measuring are pretty meh and accuracy is in doubt, but even among average coaches,am coaches style and game plan can fit a team better and that makes a difference.

jarca
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
jarca wrote:
We don't have a gm last yr. vinny pretty much pick the roster when he decided they we needed a stretch 4. Basically picked odom over Evans and Martin. So vinny gets All the blame and deservedly so.

KMart would never return. When Evans was with us he was a huge offensive liability. He dropped every ball that was given to him and shot less that 50% FT. Now he's a monster. Clipper luck not a bad decision. LO was a gamble but in his prime he could play almost every position and he averaged 10 rb/36 min this yr.

Some of you new guys don't know Clipper Luck. We should have a thread where everybody gives their favorite one. BG's knee doesn't count

Sam Cassell's 8 second SNAFU is mine.

That's not clippers luck. It's vinnys stupidity. He valued offense more than defense cuz he got no system. Plus odom showed that he was done in Dallas yet we still wanted him. That's stupidity not luck

clipperboy24
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jarca wrote:
toohipcliptoslip wrote:
jarca wrote:
We don't have a gm last yr. vinny pretty much pick the roster when he decided they we needed a stretch 4. Basically picked odom over Evans and Martin. So vinny gets All the blame and deservedly so.

KMart would never return. When Evans was with us he was a huge offensive liability. He dropped every ball that was given to him and shot less that 50% FT. Now he's a monster. Clipper luck not a bad decision. LO was a gamble but in his prime he could play almost every position and he averaged 10 rb/36 min this yr.

Some of you new guys don't know Clipper Luck. We should have a thread where everybody gives their favorite one. BG's knee doesn't count

Sam Cassell's 8 second SNAFU is mine.

That's not clippers luck. It's vinnys stupidity. He valued offense more than defense cuz he got no system. Plus odom showed that he was done in Dallas yet we still wanted him. That's stupidity not luck

I think it was worth the risk. Good bad it didn't turn out well. It was nice th few games he did play well

tense2
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Called out??. What did you supposedly call me out on. What's your point besides being snide.

pageC4
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Yeah most sports commentators agreed with you too. There was a huge potential for upside with Odom. But i think in the end the fact that we didn't commit to him for more than one year really saved our asses

Agent0
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I think that was the whole idea in the trade. Mo was redundant, while Odom was expiring and if he panned out fully would be a great asset, he didn't, but the risk was minimal because of his contract length.

pageC4
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well put. i still wouldnt sign him though. even if at the vets minimum. i think a new player might breathe life into this club

Clipswhit
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seems like there's a good reason he's a former coach.

namzug
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I'm mixed on LO for the min. If he is going to come in out of shape and take half the season to get in shape then forget about it. Which I forget how lethargic he looked at the beginning of the season, but I had a game from early in the season on my dvr which I watched and couldn't believe how bad he looked.

I do think he wasn't a bad back up once he got in playing shape and he could bring the ball and pass better than our other bigs not named blake.

The only thing I didn't like about that trade was that it looked like he was going to get cut anyways. we could have signed him for min last year since he wanted to play in la. in turn we could of traded mo for something probably still to Utah.

prokreation
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clipperboy24 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Good read and just in time for those that are losing patience with not finding that "special" coach. Very Happy

Ironically, it quotes JVG to make a point.

A Former NBA Coach Argues That Coaches Are Not Responsible for Outcomes

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/05/30/ ... -outcomes/

A "former coach" lol. Maybe he is looking for some justification of why he is a former coach and not current coach

Yup. Agree. Phil Jackson - 11 Rings. Poppovich - 4 Rings. 15 Championships - 2 Coaches.

pageC4
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What i feel was the issue with Lamar is that he spent the entire first half of the season trying to shed weight. If he was already in shape that time could have been used on improving his deficiencies, like shooting. Countless times i saw Lamar with the ball only to defer because he was so worried his shot wouldnt go in. I agree that even at the minimum he is a liability. I'm sure we can get someone with better conditioning habits for the veterans minimum. No thanks to LO

prokreation
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
jarca wrote:
We don't have a gm last yr. vinny pretty much pick the roster when he decided they we needed a stretch 4. Basically picked odom over Evans and Martin. So vinny gets All the blame and deservedly so.

KMart would never return. When Evans was with us he was a huge offensive liability. He dropped every ball that was given to him and shot less that 50% FT. Now he's a monster. Clipper luck not a bad decision. LO was a gamble but in his prime he could play almost every position and he averaged 10 rb/36 min this yr.

Some of you new guys don't know Clipper Luck. We should have a thread where everybody gives their favorite one. BG's knee doesn't count

Sam Cassell's 8 second SNAFU is mine.

Agree with you on Kmart. He didn't like Vinny and Vinny didn't like him.

But NOW Reggie Evans is a monster??? He was a monster when he was with us. HUGE Rebounding machine and would school DJ all day, any day in defense. We should have never let Evans go.

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