How Can the Clippers Possibly Win with One Post-up Player

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Quimoto
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I am having a hard time getting excited about having all these jump shooters on this team with barely any big men to clean up all the miss shoots. However, what's most dishearting is that only Griffin has anything resembling a post game. DeAndre is atrocious in the post.

Agent0
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Ask yourself how many post up players these teams have:

Spurs

Heat

Thunder

The teams that have been in them finals the past few seasons. Now ask yourself how many shooter they have. There isn't just one way to win or be effective, it's about efficient offense.

hoopfanjd31
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This was going to be my exact response. The Heat are back-to-back champions and have no real post players. LeBron may post-up occasionally, but he doesn't prefer it. If you have people who can break a defense down off the dribble and people who can hit outside shots, a strong post up game isn't necessary.

AbbaGav
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The Lakers have had 2 for the last few seasons (Pau + Bynum/Dwight) and it's been a mess. Spacing. Roles. It can work.

Silasie
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The Heat have one 2 championships without post players, but their lack of bigs is considered by some to be their weakness. They struggled against Indiana partly due to Hibbert. So just because it works for them doesn't mean it will work for us. We don't have LeBron.

On the other hand the league does seem to be changing with this small ball trend.

ClipsShow
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The only teams we have go "big" against are Memphis or Indiana. We are probably going to run a lot of small ball which is helpful against the heat and thunder so we don't need back to the basket guys. Doc even said he is going to use griffin more fading p and less back to the basket. You don't have only post up bigs. Chris Paul works well posting guards around his size. Dudley works really well in the post, and Barnes gets easy buckts backing people down. Especially when you play Dudley and Barnes at the 2, you can post up smaller guys. There are creative ways to score in the post and it frees up peremiter shooters

Voyeur
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Well, both Blake and DJ can clean up missed shots. I'm not too worried about that. But DJ can post up. It's just we get too crowded down low. If Blake can become effective at the elbow, which Doc seems to want, that may free DJ up a little more to show what he can do down low. Hey, I'm being optimistic about DJ...I've been wanting him gone all off season.

CP3Heliflopter
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I hope Blake works more on his post game. Blake is much more valuable down low than DJ. DJ is turnover prone and is a poor passer. BG is a great passer in the post which makes him a very valuable post player. The problem is his tendency to overdribble and act like a guard in the post. He needs to be more decisive and not let the defense get set. Working with Hakeem will help him with this. Unlike Dwight he has the footwork and grace to actually use some of Hakeem's moves.

ClipsShow
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I agree that we needs to attack when the defense isn't set. His first step to the basketball is unstoppable, I like Blake's passing but he should be in attack mode all game. He needs to catch and then move to the rim. Our offense would be way more explosI have

tense2
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It's all about an an efficient answer to an inefficient question. wink

Thank you Agent.

CP3Heliflopter
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If he is aggressive his passing ability will pay off. If he gets doubled he can pass to an open shooter or to DJ for a dunk, etc.

CapsNClips
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Lets say we had a true post up player, it would really matter in the playoffs if that player had to go up against Howard, Perkins, Duncan or Gasol. They are all great post defenders and then everyone would be crying that we don't have enough shooters.

Our roster IMO isn't as versatile as teams like Miami and Golden State, but it is more complete and we have the Coaches to maximize our potential on offense and defense.

I really really like our chances in the playoffs if our players like Jamal and DJ play like they are supposed to.

CP3Heliflopter
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The only thing that worries me at this point is how well our bigs play especially on the defensive end. The reason why we loss to the Griz was largely due to our bigs getting annihilated on defense. Zbo and Gasol abused them all series while Zbo was a complete nonfactor against the Spurs.

CapsNClips
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I'm not worried about Blake guarding ZBo because he proved in games 1 and 2 that fronting ZBo in the post neutralizes his offensive tip ins. I'm sure if we go up against Grizzlies again that Doc will muster up a scheme that focuses on those two guys and not so much on Conley and Prince.

DJ is my worry on the offensive end and somewhat on the defensive end because if he can't hit valuable free throws when they hack him then that gets our offensive sets out of rhythm which will eventually kill our total team defense.

loyalclipfan
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the reason we lost to memhis was because we didn't have good SHOOTERS! Had we had the new shooters we have now, we would have beaten memphis EASILY. You add in this (shooters) now, AND....

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illastrate
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Pretty much says it all right there. Clips are gonna be patient and not settle. Will get a good big man or two as more players become available via waiver wire or trade. There's no way they're going to go into the season with Ryan Hollins as your third big. Absolutely no way.

Agent0
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Shooters are nice and would have made the games closer, but the reason the Clippers lost was defense.

Check out the offensive rating of the league's best offense, then check the Grizzlies offensive rating in games 4, 5, 6 and you might throw up. The defense wasn't just bad, it was horrendous. You can't foul people and send them to the lone and expect your defense to be good, FT's are the most efficient shots in basketball even at 55% FT shooting. If you fouled a team ever possession and they hit 55% and you shot ever possession and shot an eFG% of 50% with no FT's, they would win.

100 possessions would give you 100 pts, 100 possessions would give them 110 pts. So you can't hack teams so much an expect to just easily make it up from the field.


GOOD post up players are beneficial, but just having post-up players in general isn't the aim. Teams went through the phase of thinking posting up is inherently better than perimeter play and you have guys like Antonio Davis being primary post scorers, which was awful. A perimeter guy who can hit there's. get to the line and create is a far superior offensive player to a guy who just has above average post ability.

If you have a guy who can score effectively in the post, handle double teams, and pass and create, then use him to the max. If you have a guy who can just post up, but has poor awareness, turns it over too much, is a weak passer, that's nice and all, but your offense isn't better for it.

Amnesty_David_Stern
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Heat have Lebron Friggin James who is one of the top players in the NBA, basically he's Magic Johnson out there but with a better ability to score. You don't need post up players when you got him out there, plus he's a freak of nature and can post up and grab offensive boards.

Spurs had Tim Duncan, who many consider the best PF or C of all time, and is easily in the top 20 players ever to play the game. He alone, covers up their post game.

Thunder lack a post game, but their big men are great at rebounding, banging around in the paint.

We have 2 guys that should each get 10 boards a game but lack the ability or want to box out. We do need more big men on this team, I have no clue what the hell they are trying to do here but you can't run a team with Blake, DJ and Ryan Hollins as your only PF/C's. And yes, Dudley can play the 4 in a small lineup but we aren't running a small lineup 30+ minutes a game.

NUMB3RFIFTY
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Sounds like the masses are going to hang me in the public square for saying this but...

I think you guys might be viewing things too narrowly. The utility of a great post player can't be understated.

Dominant post players bring championships.

I took the liberty (took some F-in time) to compile a list of every NBA champion since the 3pt line was introduced, and the notable center they had:

2010-11 Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki - PF/C

2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers - Gasol - PF/C (plus a half decent Bynum)

2008-09 - Los Angeles Lakers - Gasol - PF/C (plus a half decent Bynum)

2007-08 - Boston Celtics - Garnett 6-11 PF

2006-07 - San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan (Played center that year according to BasketballReference)

2005-06 - Miami Heat - Shaq/ Alonzo Mourning

2004-05 - San Antonio Spurs - Tim Duncan

2003-04 - Detroit Pistons - Ben/Rasheed Wallace (In their primes) <-- not great

2002-03 - San Antonio Spurs - David Robinson/ Tim Duncan

2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal

2000-01 - Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal

1999-00 - Los Angeles Lakers - Shaquille O'Neal

1998-99 - San Antonio Spurs - David Robinson/ Tim Duncan

1997-98 - Chicago Bulls - Rodman (Hall of fame) 15reb/game (arguably didn't need a traditionally dominant center, with the greatest player of all time on your team.)

1996-97 - Chicago Bulls - Rodman (Hall of fame) 16reb/game

1995-96 - Chicago Bulls - Rodman (Hall of fame) 15reb/game

1994-95 - Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon

1993-94 - Houston Rockets - Hakeem Olajuwon

1992-93 - Chicago Bulls Horace Grant 13pts-10reb (also played with literally the greatest player in the history of basketball)

1991-92 - Chicago Bulls Horace Grant 14pts-10reb

1990-91 - Chicago Bulls Horace Grant 12pts-8reb

1989-90 - Detroit Pistons - Bill Laimbeer/ Rodman

1988-89 - Detroit Pistons - Bill Laimbeer/ Rodman

1987-88 - Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1986-87 - Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1985-86 - Boston Celtics - Kevin McHale + Parish/ Walton

1984-85 - Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1983-84 - Boston Celtics - Kevin McHale/ Parish

1982-83 - Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone

1981-82 - Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +Rambis

1980-81 - Boston Celtics - Kevin McHale/ Parish

These were before the 3pt Line

1979-80 - Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

1978-79 - Seattle SuperSonics - Jack Sikma

1977-78 - Washington Bullets - Elvin Hayes/ Wes Unseld

1976-77 - Portland Trail Blazers - Bill Walton

1975-76 - Boston Celtics - Paul Silas

1974-75 - Golden State Warriors - Bill Bridges (not great, actually pretty bad lol)

1971-72 - Los Angeles Lakers - Wilt Chamberlain

1970-71 - Milwaukee Bucks - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

My point is, aside from the Jordan years, teams have needed a dominant center almost every single year to win a ring.

CapsNClips
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Dirk, Rodman, Rasheed, and Ben Wallace aren't post players. So, teams can win without post players.

CP3Heliflopter
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The game has changed. The last three champions did not have a dominant C. The C crop nowadays is a lot weaker and Cs in general are less effective offensively due to rule changes which helped out smaller guards but hurt Cs.

People have finally figured out the importance of spacing and shooting(took them long enough) which makes traditional Cs less important on D as well(Centers are still the best players to build around mind you).

CP3Heliflopter
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Actually Dirk has a great post game but yea you don't need a dominant post presence to win a chip but it certainly helps which is why BG needs to be that dominant force.

CapsNClips
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NUMB3RFIFTY,

You look at that list as those teams having post players, while I look at those teams and notice they all had something that nobody else had. For instance Bulls had the greatest scorer and a rebounder on their team that was unmatched to anybody in his generation in Dennis Rodman, Dallas had a 7 foot sharp shooter, Miami has LeBron who is a 6'8 PG who can guard every position, Lakers had a coaching system no other team other than CHI have had.

We have the greatest PG in the league and the best and most athletic PF in the game. What other teams have that?

NUMB3RFIFTY
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You guys are being very naive if you're not grasping the big picture point.

Only one team (on that list) has an excuse and that's Chicago. Only because they included a guy who's on the Mount Rushmore of all-time American sports.

On what planet are centers not post players?

Rodman is the greatest rebounder of all time. Period. It's a consensus notion throughout all experts and amateur sport enthusiasts. That doesn't sound like mmmaayyybbbeee a front-court guy? It's not enough that he was officially slated at center?

Dirk is 7 feet tall. and played center because no bigs were worth a damn on his teams. He had an excellent post game.

You make yourself sound foolish making statements like that.

I'm sorry if i'm not totally respecting your quickly assembled Twitter opinion on the matter but I would be much more open to a well-developed and thorough rebuttal and not yard-barking.

NUMB3RFIFTY
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I'm in agreement with most of that.

CapsNClips
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^ LOL, so Rodman is a great post-up player just because he was a center (even though actually a PF)? If by that logic then we have 2 post players named DJ and Hollins.

Dirk has post moves, but that's not how he won the Championship. He won it by shooting 46% from 3 in the playoffs.

I'm not sure what your definition of a post player is, but my definition is a player who gets the majority of his point through post moves in the paint like McHale, The Dream, Kareem and Shaq. Dirk and Rasheed are Shooting Guards in Centers bodies. Rodman and Ben Wallace are rebounders and defenders.

Agent0
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Yea, seems like #50 is mixing up interior players with post-up players. For example, Al Jefferson is a post player, but you'd have a better chance at a championship with a guy that faces up, scores more efficiently and defends better, despite him not being a post player.

Solid interior defense and rebounding is beneficial for any team ting to win a championship, yes, but that isn't the same thing as a post-up player. Ben Wallace is a non factor on offense for the most part, he can screen and grab offensive rebounds, but he doesn't draw double teams, create plays on offense, or actually do positive things from posting up, hardly even posted up.

Laimbeer was more of a stretch big man than a post player, and Rodman was a SF on Detroit, not a PF, he wasn't even playing the big man role.

Again, Jordan was the Bulls post player, Horace Grant could post a little bit was more of a finisher and mid-range shooter. Blake is a far superior post player, if we're only talking about post play, Horace is not far superior to even DeAndre Jordan.

The value of post play is efficient scoring and drawing double teams. If you can get it from other methods, the value is the same. Dirk was a mismatch nightmare and more of a mid-post guy who was a lights out shooter. He would get the ball at the elbow, and he had options, turn and shoot over you, face you up and drove by you, back you down a little and either shoot over you or drove by, pass of defense helped or doubled, but Dirk didn't do low post. he doesn't get within 5 feet and do hook shots and up and under moves on the regular, I can hardly remember the last time he did a hook shot.

He wasn't really a "post-up" guy, he wasn't even a defensive and rebounding guy, that was Tyson Chandler.

I don't know if you've seen Sikma's game, but he was actually more of a stretch big man than any sort of traditional post player.

Also in the end, you just proved the OP wrong because he asked how can the Clippers win with only ONE big post up player. How many teams did you list that had more than one? Very few. So clearly you can definitely win with only one post-up player, when in the world did you need multiple post-up players to win?

NUMB3RFIFTY
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I think you should check the records, as I did.

I only listed one guy in some cases by choice, a large number of those titles had more than one big to thank.

namzug
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So is this asking for players who play in the post in general, or players that play with their back to the basket (using post moves)?

There is a huge difference. I agree with CapsnClips and think some of us are confusing the two i mentioned above.

If DJ can become consistent boxing out and defending any post moves are a bonus. I think our key to success is Blake just becoming dominant where teams have to double team him or suffer his wrath. That will open up the game for everyone, shooters, paul, dj. Blake really needs to be the most dominating player on our team. If this happens we will likely be a force to be reckoned with for years to come.

CP3Heliflopter
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A lot of the guys on your list aren't dominant post players or really post players at all. What your list really confirmed is that dominant Cs are more likely to win you championships. Players like Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, D Rob. That Is 5 of the top 7 Cs all time and 4 of those guys are on my top 10 all time list. Not to mention all of them have won at least two chips each.

I counted 11 times where a team did not have a dominant post player post 3 point line on your list. KG is more of a mid ranged J type of player, the Pistons did not have a dominant post presence, Rodman was terrible offensively, Horace Grant was not really much of a post presence, Dirk has a nice post game but isn't a traditional post player.

Agent0
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Well every team has more than one big, right, but again, this is asking about "post-up" player. When you say post-up player, I'm imagining it isn't just some guy who can jack up a poor shot once in a whole from the post, but someone that's actually skilled and useful as a scorer and playmaker in the post offensively.

The Clippers don't need some random guy to waste offensive possessions in the post, but of course another skilled post player would be nice, but that's far from crucial for the Clippers to win. A high level defensive and rebounding big man (hopefully DJ becomes that) would be far more useful to the Clippers for winning.

...but also, a lot of those guys you listed aren't "post-up" players, just big men. There's a difference, which is why I said maybe you're interpreting it totally different from the rest of us which is why we are all confused.

Lebron2clips2010
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I think a more effective way to address is, is to look up the leading scorer/ and or the finals MVP

2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

2003 -- Tim Duncan, San Antonio

2004 -- Chauncey Billups, Detroit

2005 -- Tim Duncan, San Antonio

2006 -- Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat

2007 -- Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs

2008 -- Paul Pierce, Boston Celtics

2009 -- Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

2010 -- Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

2011 -- Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks

2012 -- Lebron James, Miami Heat

2013 -- Lebron James, Miami Heat

As you can see the majority of these, specifically of late lean heavily on guards or forwards that play more like a guard (Dirk, Lebron) for scoring. Of course teams have to have someone to rebound and guard the rim but clearly post play is not as important. Remember one of the Lakers championships Bynum did not play in the finals as well... I'm excited for this year and think we have a chance to be great...

Voyeur
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Matt Barnes said he was going to try to bulk up a little and work on his post up game, btw. The few times he posted guys up, he showed some skills.

ClipsShow
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The Thunder and Heat have a total of 0 post players

clipperboy24
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Oh tense you are too much Wink

I agree though. Most championship teams through history rarely have two guys on the block

tense2
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Thank you.

clipperstown
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I was damn surprised with Matt's finishing ability at the rim, especially when he would get the ball in the post.

Agent0
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LeBron played like and was a post player for them, but that still doesn't help since it's only one post up player Smile

Heediot
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Too many of the newer generation don't like playing in the post. They are more about style rather than substance and effectiveness.

ClipsShow
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Lebron James tore up Paul George in the post but he is still a perimeter plays. He posted George up like 7 times in game 5 in ECF, that doesn't make him a post player. Unless Lebron takes it upon himself to post up a smaller guy, they still have 0 post players

CP3Heliflopter
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Its not that simple. Rule changes that basically made zone defense legal really hurt big men offensively and helped small guards offensively.

Heediot
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Very true. I am just going off of what Kareem told espn about how most of the young bigs want to be a point-forward-center like KG instead of being a throw-back type of big man.

ClipsShow
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Kareem said no one is the NBA today is a true back to the basket player

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