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DocHollywood
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405185by DocHollywood » Sep 07, 2013 - 12:43 AM PST
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Jamal is better in isolations, but Redick is a two-way complete player. Flash vs Substance.



                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405186by Voyeur » Sep 07, 2013 - 01:03 AM PST
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I don't think it's a matter of JJ being "better" than Jamal.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405187by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 01:36 AM PST
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better,better fit, however you'd like to word it, Jamal should start over Redick

                
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cleepers
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405188by cleepers » Sep 07, 2013 - 01:44 AM PST
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^ Jamal wasn't even a good fit to start over Willie Green. I love the guy, but he's bench-firepower personified. He was perfect to carry the scoring load surrounded by defense first guys like Bled and Barnes - and maybe he still can be - but he's not a spot up shooter and he's not a noted defender... he needs the ball in his hands to do his best work. That means the ball isn't in Chris Paul's hands and that is bad personnel management.

Jamal has the talent to start in the NBA, but on this team it's a bad idea. We need Redick's defense much more than Crawford's scoring in our starting 5.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405189by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 02:14 AM PST
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I don't really buy into Redick being a better defender than Crawford. Jamal may not be a spot up shooter but he can shoot and has a knack for creating 4 pt opportunities. He's taller than Redick, can create his own shot and has ridiculous handles. Jamal can really flourish with this squad. He was just misused by Vinny. They've both been the 6th man on their respective squads with Jamal starting 350 more games than JJ over the course of their careers. He doubles JJ's assist per game averages. When training camp is over, I'm sure Jamal will be the starter.

                
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DocHollywood
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405190by DocHollywood » Sep 07, 2013 - 03:55 AM PST
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1% chance Jamal starts for the reasons Cleepers listed above. He's a much better fit coming off of the bench where his scoring is needed more and his lack of defense isn't such a liability.

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 405192by pageC4 » Sep 07, 2013 - 09:02 AM PST
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a spot on analysis. Jamal reminds me of players like Carmelo and Allan Iverson. Great offensive players that are not known for defense. Some scouts consider players like this "ball stoppers" because they disrupt the natural flow of the ball and love iso's. Sometimes the best play is the one made by another person, and Jamal isn't the type of player to set his mates up for a play or pass out of trouble. In fact, its why he has developed that fancy footwork and crossover. Jamal likes to complete a play and rather than pass he loves to dance around defenders to complete the play himself.

                
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cleepers
Post ID: 405193by cleepers » Sep 07, 2013 - 10:05 AM PST
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You might not buy it, but the numbers say Redick is a better defender. He has a career 109Drtg vs. Jamal's 111. Crawford can shoot, but he's not nearly the shooter JJ is. 41/35 % career versus 43/39 % and TS% of 53% vs. 58%.

Yes, he has more assists, but only 1 more per36 over his career and that is mostly due to the fact that he sees a lot more of the ball than Redick and has played a lot more PG. Redick knows to camp out at the arc and if he doesn't draw his defender with him, he waits for the ball and shoots open shots. The ultimate roleplayer.

Those 4pt plays are cool and all, but they only happen 3 or 4 times a season and those extra 3 or 4 points are more than made up for with Redick's efficiency.

People had a lot of criticism of Vinny, but playing Crawford as a 6th man generally wasn't one of them.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405194by Voyeur » Sep 07, 2013 - 10:10 AM PST
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JJ practically shut down Ray Allen in a playoff series against Boston while starting...and JJ's is an even better player now than he was then. Ironically, Allen would go off on Orlando in a later playoff series, but that was with Redick coming off the bench. Now, I'm not saying Redick is a "great" defender...but I AM saying there's no way Jamal can (or at least has shown willingness to) stay with his man the way JJ can (and has shown willingness to do).

I swear, it seems like some people see a basketball player who's got some handles and thrills with his playground one-on-one style and think he must naturally be a better fit for a team.

I, for one, can't understand how some of us don't recognize that Redick's reputation as a relentless off-the-ball player is exactly what a team needs to avoid a stagnant offense.

Also, if we're going to talk about assists, we may also want to look at the turnovers. And Redick is known for high assist to turnover ration. Whereas how many times have we seen Jamal lose the ball from too much dribbling? I love Jamal, but he's a starter for bad teams. He's one of the top 6th men of the year on good or great teams!

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405197by CP3Heliflopter » Sep 07, 2013 - 11:12 AM PST
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Redick is a much better fit with Chris Paul and BG. Better shooter and better off the ball. Jamal is needed to help the bench offensively.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405230by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 09:36 PM PST
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Voyeur wrote:

I swear, it seems like some people see a basketball player who's got some handles and thrills with his playground one-on-one style and think he must naturally be a better fit for a team.

I, for one, can't understand how some of us don't recognize that Redick's reputation as a relentless off-the-ball player is exactly what a team needs to avoid a stagnant offense.

Also, if we're going to talk about assists, we may also want to look at the turnovers. And Redick is known for high assist to turnover ration. Whereas how many times have we seen Jamal lose the ball from too much dribbling? I love Jamal, but he's a starter for bad teams. He's one of the top 6th men of the year on good or great teams!

roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405231by Voyeur » Sep 07, 2013 - 09:41 PM PST
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That's what happens when you make solid arguments. You get eye rolls in return.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405232by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 09:50 PM PST
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Nobody knows what the offense and and defense is going to look like under Doc so everything is speculation, sir. While they both offer something different, there is no clear choice of who will start. They're both career bench players.

If VDN was still coaching then yes Redick would make more sense but he's not. My opinion, again this is just my opinion, is that Jamal should start. With Doc on the sidelines now and a system in tact, there will be less Jamal 1 on 1 anyway.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405233by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 09:55 PM PST
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Your argument is weak. JJ is a career bench player. No way he can keep up with elite SG's in this league. I know he's a Clipper now but be real. You have to defend Crawford because his offensive skill set is too good. JJ's just a good shooter.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 405235by CP3Heliflopter » Sep 07, 2013 - 10:05 PM PST
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There seems to be some bizarre negative connotation that comes from being a bench player. Ginobili has been a bench player the majority of his career. He had no qualms with it. Being a bench player or a 6th man is not a bad thing. Ginobili played more minutes than the starting SG of the Spurs and was often the 2nd or 3rd most important player on the Spurs when they were winning championships.

The fact that Crawford has a better offensive skillset is precisely why he should come off the bench. JJ needs someone like CP3 or BG to help him create. Crawford can create his own shot and help the bench get buckets. He can also dominate the ball more as a bench player rather than a starter. It is not a good idea to take the ball out of CP3's or BG's hands.

                
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CLIPSET
Post ID: 405237by CLIPSET » Sep 07, 2013 - 10:19 PM PST
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Nothing bizarre about it. It's not a bad thing at all but the debate is whether who should start. I like JJ's game and think he'd be best served off the bench where he can provide consistent shooting since he's a better shooter. I think you can hide Jamals flaws better with the starters and accentuate Redick's strengths with the second unit. You can create more shots for Redick with Muellens and Jamison setting picks for him. Jamal's ability to drive should mean easier buckets for DJ,Blake and open shots for Dudley.Not to mention that Jamal seems to have good chemistry with his teammates.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405238by Voyeur » Sep 08, 2013 - 12:03 AM PST
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Repped High Quality Post

JJ's primarily a shooter but he's been attacking the basket since his, what, junior year in Duke. Certainly he attacks the basket more than we've seen Willie or Chauncey do for us. But who really believes we need consistent shooting off the bench more than we do as a starter? The whole point is we need consistent shooters out there with inside guys like Blake and DJ. How is Blake supposed to take advantage of double teams when he and everyone else are watching Jamal Crawford dance around for 10 seconds in an ISO play? When we have the best point guard in the league and we have a PF who is also an excellent passer, we need one or two shooters IN THE STARTING LINEUP who can get themselves open when those guys feed them the ball.

Face it, CLIPSET...you're enamored with Jamal's skills and you think that, and probably other factors not mentioned, means he deserves to start over JJ. And obviously my argument is not weak because I (and others on this very thread) have given examples of how JJ's actually a better defender. You say he isn't without giving any examples of how Crawford is better defensively.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 405239by CP3Heliflopter » Sep 08, 2013 - 12:17 AM PST
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I don't understand your argument at all. Redick's strengths would be accentuated with CP3's ability to create shots for him not by Mullens and Jamison setting picks.... Its not like they are great at that to begin with or there is any proof that they are better than DJ and BG at that regard. Jamal's ability to drive? Show me proof that he drives more than JJ Redick cause statistically Redick attempts more layups/at rim shots and finishes at a better rate....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting/2013/ http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/redicjj01/shooting/2013/

 

Redick is better with someone who can help him create shots. Namely CP3. We don't need Crawford handling the ball on the starting lineup when Cp3 is better with the ball in the hands. The same can be said for Blake Griffin. You need off ball shooters like Redick in the starting lineup to space the floor and not take away the ball from our superstars. The bench however needs a shot creator and a scorer. Aka Crawford.

                
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cleepers
Post ID: 405240by cleepers » Sep 08, 2013 - 01:15 AM PST
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So you're saying we should start the guy with the ridiculous handles and driving ability but inferior shooting efficiency as a spot up shooter, and bring the better spot up shooter off the bench to create his own offense?

Makes no sense at all.

                
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pageC4
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405242by pageC4 » Sep 08, 2013 - 12:18 PM PST
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@Voyeur repped your last post. I think its well established that Crawfords strength is amazing crossovers and fancy footwork that tricks defenders and allows him to shoot. During that time the rest of the team becomes spectators and are less effective. Jamal would not mesh well with the starters in comparison to Redick, who would. compliment Blake and Paul.

                
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Clippers_FTW
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405243by Clippers_FTW » Sep 08, 2013 - 02:01 PM PST
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In my opinion... Jamal Crawford is the better player. But... Like others have said he is a better fit for the bench. Its hard for me to defend a player who I have not seen play that much. Anyone can go on stats but stats are just that... doesn't mean what one player will do on a team he will do for another. different player, different system. But.. from "what it looks like" JJ will start... Shoot I'd rather start Bullock lol. Better defenese and good shooter.. but I'm not the coach.. I'm not in training camp.. and I don't play with these guys every day. This is a different team from last year. Hell... they might start Matt Barnes at the 2.. we don't know. All we can do is speculate.

                
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tense2
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405245by tense2 » Sep 08, 2013 - 03:13 PM PST
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Redick is the better all a round player and should start without question. IMO, Crawford will be a chip in a trade for a big come trade dead line and most likely gone by next season.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405248by Voyeur » Sep 08, 2013 - 03:20 PM PST
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I'm with Tim Legler on this one. I think Redick is a better defender than he's given credit for. No he won't shut down guys on a regular basis, but he'll work hard out there and I think a lot of us will be pleasantly surprised. Well, at least I hope the surprise is pleasant.

Thanks for the rep, pageC4! Smile

                
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Clippers_FTW
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405250by Clippers_FTW » Sep 08, 2013 - 03:23 PM PST
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I sure hope so. Like I said.... I wouldn't know him from Travis Knight... I seriously only watch clipper games.. and I think when we played Magic last year I worked. I missed like 2-3 games all season and I believe magic was either 1 or 2 of them.

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 405252by Voyeur » Sep 08, 2013 - 03:30 PM PST
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There was at least one Magic game against us you didn't WANT to see. lol

EDIT:

I went back to the box score and recap of that game we lost to the Magic. While Afflalo had a monster game, it was JJ who made 3 big plays to beat us. One was a 3 pointer with 42 seconds left, giving Orlando their first lead the whole game. The other was drawing an offensive charge against...wait for it...Jamal Crawford. Crawford's quote:

"I got the ball in transition and I thought I saw Matt (Barnes) over there," Crawford said. "I thought I made the right decision, but J.J. Redick guessed right. I thought he was going to rotate, so I faced it. When I put the ball down he stayed there, so lucky guess."

The other play was the unfortunate moment where JJ and CP3 bumped knees, which led to Paul sitting out all those games.

Although the real reason we lost that game was because we stopped giving Blake the ball in the last 4 minutes, but whatever.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278261

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 405274by Agent0 » Sep 09, 2013 - 12:54 PM PST
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Yup, agreed on both Redick being better all-round and Jamal possibly being in a trade.

Also agree with Voyeur on Redick's defense. He isn't a shut down defender, but he's a high effort and smart defender. Redick won't get caught ball watching, or lost on defense or not properly running the scheme. Those things aren't huge, but that can be the different between 3-4 more points scored by the defense in comparison to Crawford who can get lost at times. That's actually a big deal in the grand scheme.

Giving up 1-2 more baskets on average than another guy is significant in winning games and makes a difference in terms of your teams defense.


....then on offense, while Crawford has better individual skills, he won't impact the offense more with Paul and Griffin than Redick. Redick's off-ball movement, greater willingness to pass, and the attention he draws for the defense will be just as or even more valuable than Crawford's raw greater scoring production.

Jamal can actually play similarly on offense, but his comfort zone is on the ball and spotting up. He's played this way his whole career. Like he said, he didn't drill himself in summer till last year, and the way he works out in summer (pro-am leagues) re-enforce his on ball isolation style of play.

                
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namzug
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405276by namzug » Sep 09, 2013 - 01:51 PM PST
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I actually wouldn't mind Jamal starting for the reason that JJ is a better defender. It's the minutes that I feel should favor JJ a bit, if JJ can slow down penetration and work with Barnes our back up bigs wouldn't be such a liability. If DJ and Blake don't step up, then I'd prefer JJ with the starters.

I think they are both good enough shooters that they won't be left open. They both can fill in that Ray Allen mold in my opinion, we know that Jamal is better handling and JJ is a better defender, but they are both primarily scorers. Either of them will make a team pay for not giving them the proper respect on the floor. It all depends if Jamal would be willing to do most of his work off the ball, because that is what it would take from the starter, because you are not getting the ball over CP3 and Blake. I think the player that is having the better night can get the closing minutes.

I do think that Jamal is a good asset and if we can get good value in return we shouldn't hesitate. Don't really see us getting to much for him though, with the exception of OKC because they might miss bench firepower more than we need a back up big.

                
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Agent0
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405277by Agent0 » Sep 09, 2013 - 02:18 PM PST
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I'm not down with trading Jamal to a team that we could likely meet in the post-season. I feel like that is a recipe for disaster. If he's traded, it should be to an Eastern conference team or a team that isn't going to be a playoff opponent, or at least not a good playoff opponent.

I think part of his value is that his contract isn't guaranteed in the coming years. I agree with who is closing, and also with Jamal having to take on the off-ball role. That doesn't mean he'll have zero time to create though, but obviously, you can sense that it isn't his comfort zone. His most productive seasons have come when he's been given more freedom. He might not be the best player to fit into such a set offensive role, but he might also surprise us

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 405304by pageC4 » Sep 09, 2013 - 09:21 PM PST
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Front office agrees with you. why do you think we gave Mo Williams to Utah when we could have gotten a better return through a three team trade involving Lakers getting Mo...by improving a rival you only hurt yourself

                
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clipper*grl*76
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405348by clipper*grl*76 » Sep 10, 2013 - 04:14 PM PST
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JJ is better than Crawford in some areas, such as distribution of the ball to other players and at the free throw line... BUT OTHER THAN THAT!!! hummmmmmmm.. yeah.. Crawford wins my vote hands down.

                
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Clippers_FTW
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405352by Clippers_FTW » Sep 10, 2013 - 06:54 PM PST
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hey. how did you get away with the hummmmmmmm

                
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Clippers_FTW
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405353by Clippers_FTW » Sep 10, 2013 - 06:55 PM PST
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really? you can say hmmmmmmm but you can't say (y)(a)(y)

                
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DocHollywood
Post Subject: RE: What Are Your Clippers Starting Five Predictions? Post ID: 405371by DocHollywood » Sep 11, 2013 - 01:03 AM PST
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I guess some people just can't get past the overly simplistic Jamal="better," therefore Jamal=starter. Not everyone would cut it as a high school basketball coach either. Jamal is a better offensive player off the dribble, but Redick is superior in nearly every other way. Redick's defense, his shooting, and especially his off-ball movement is just plain better than Crawford's. I'm guessing the Crawford proponents haven't watched much of Redick. I have. He's a better FIT with the starters.

                
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