JJ Redick and Ray Allen Comparison (P. 2)

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DocHollywood
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JJ struggled in the playoffs last year because he played for the BUCKS against the HEAT. Their PG Brandon Jennings doesn't know how to pass the ball to shooters which is well understood. Redick likes to take threes while moving and coming off screens and his release is very quick. Not at all the same as Jamal. With CP he's going to get the kind of looks Ray did with Rondo during both the regular season and the playoffs. Breakout year for JJ.

Clippersfan86
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Yes and Ray Allen has never gotten press for locking Kobe up, so I think you're confusing the two. Allen is an average defender, trust me I've been watching him since the Milwaukee "big 3" with Cassell and Robinson. He's played good defense at certain points but in general he's nothing special defensively, so Redick isn't going to be any worse defensively. What are you talking about dude? Redick wasn't left open all series. The reason his efficiency plummeted when he went from Orlando to Milwaukee is because teams started focusing on him MORE and he was getting defended much better because Milwaukee's "weapons" were ridiculously inefficient and inconsistent. I watched a couple games of Milwaukee vs Miami in the playoffs and Redick shooting on the move had nothing to do with his struggles. It had to do with Miami playing insane defense, which led them to two straight titles.

Redick is equally gifted to Allen coming off screens and shooting on the move. The dude is NOT a stand still jump shooter, trust me.

Clippersfan86
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This is NOT a guy getting wide open kickouts waiting on the 3 point line. He's a mover like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen, who usually shoots on the move. Crawford's struggles had everything to do with the starters (besides CP3) being so awful in the playoffs that Memphis sent him nonstop doubles/traps and full court pressure. They basically focused their entire D on CP3+Crawford, so it's no surprise he was locked up. Especially when they have perimeter defenders like Allen, Prince, Conley.

http://fullyclips.com/2013/09/12/look-r ... s-offense/

Look at this chart somebody posted earlier. Only 18 percent of the time did he spot up shoot in Orlando. Then in Milwaukee as I said it jumped to 24.5 percent. It had to do with the makeup of the Bucks, not Redick's skill set. He's always been a rhythm shooter who likes to be on the move or coming off screens. FAR more mobile than your comparison of Steve Novak.

Clippersfan86
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Short video of Redick doing his specialty, running off screens for jumpers. Man I just had a vision when I watched this... of CP3 and Blake running PNR while Dudley cames out at about 20-25 feet, Redick is running around nonstop off screens set by DJ. We have a legit chance to have one of the greatest offenses of all time IF everything meshes. Not in terms of PPG but in terms of efficiency we may end up having an all time great offense!

jarca
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Hamilton was an efficient and reliable scorer and defender on his Detroit days. Did Redick even start in Orlando when they had a defensive coach like Stan? Or did he lose that job to a rookie Courtney Lee

Clippersfan86
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You are missing the point I was making. I was saying in terms of how he gets open and the way he shoots. He's a rhythm shooter like that who's constantly moving, not a stand still shooter. I would never use players starting or not starting as a basis for argument because coaches make stupid decisions all the time, even great coaches. Crawford for example was better than Green last year but due to fit he was brought off the bench. Redick is a lights out shooter who can really spark teams so it makes decent sense to use him as your 6th man, spark plug if you can start a great defender/rebounder like Courtney Lee. With our team... Redick will plug into that starting spot BEAUTIFULLY. He has the right balance around him to where he can just play his game and add A LOT.

jarca
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Not sure if it's you but didn't last year we were having a debate about the clippers acquisition. I said the Clippers downgraded and won't improve in playoff success. We argued about crawfish, letting Evans go, odom, mo etc.

I swear I made a couple of bets here last off season

Clippersfan86
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I'm sure we argued about the acquisition of Crawford and I ended up being right. He had the 2nd best all around year of his career and a resurgence. He was an amazing teammate and a HUGE contributor. Should have won 6th man of the year. I never argued about Evans or Odom though. I said from day one we would regret losing Reggie and with Odom I thought we should give him a shot but was skeptical of him. Mo Williams had to go for Bledsoe and it worked out because Bledsoe got to boost his value for us.

But make no mistake we were a much better all around team this last year, despite the playoff burnout. Our SRS was MUCH better and we had the 3rd or 4th best differential in the league.

jarca
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Redick is a vast improvement over Greene and Billups! With that said, Redick is a 12 PPG in the regular season and may disappear in the playoff. If Redick is this multi-dimensional scorer, shouldn't coaches have figured out by now how to use him? He's a 15 PPG scorer on a bad Orlando team, a back up to a rookie on a great team, and an 11 PPG on an average team. He's not all of the sudden turn into Ray Allen of Boston or Rip Hamilton.

jarca
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Crawford disappeared in the playoff. Hmm.

Voyeur
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It's interesting how exactly 30% of his shots were off screens whether he played for Orlando or Milwaukee. The other stats seemed adjusted based on the team dynamic.

Clippersfan86
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Redick put up 14/4 last year about, Not 12 ppg. Nobody said he's Ray Allen, but rather Ray Allen in Boston who was a 3rd or 4th scoring option and put up about 15 ppg. Which on a per minute basis the shot chart, efficiency and shooting ability is similar. It never said he was the all around player Allen was and neither am I saying that. Allen's more well rounded although Redick is no slouch on D and at passing. Besides he's never played with two legit perennial stars and a bunch of depth like this to take the pressure off him, especially the best playmaking PG in the game. He's going to get more good looks than he's ever gotten.

Clippersfan86
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Just wondering... did you watch the playoffs? I explained this on a previous post. Grizzlies focused their entire defenses on Crawford and put the best perimeter defender in the game on him. Not sure why that's "disappearing". More like he got shut down by the best defense in the league, best SG defender in the league. If Griffin+DJ+Butler+Billups stepped up the Grizzlies wouldn't of locked onto Crawford so much and he wouldn't have gotten locked up so bad.

jarca
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I said 15 on a bad team didn't I

jarca
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Randy Foye played better. That's saying a lot

Clippersfan86
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That's because the previous year we had more guys step up and Foye draws NOWHERE near the defensive attention as Crawford, so no... that's not saying a lot. Crawford gets double teamed and trapped constantly, Foye has never seen a double team, big difference. Besides the 2013 Grizzlies were a hell of a lot better than the 2012 Grizzlies in the playoffs, so bad comparison.

ClipperB23
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JJ struggled in the playoffs last year because he played for the BUCKS against the HEAT. Their PG Brandon Jennings doesn't know how to pass the ball to shooters which is well understood. Redick likes to take threes while moving and coming off screens and his release is very quick. Not at all the same as Jamal. With CP he's going to get the kind of looks Ray did with Rondo during both the regular season and the playoffs. Breakout year for JJ.
Exactly! Great post DocHollywood. JJ only played a little over 40 minutes in that series which is only....

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toohipcliptoslip
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We could have gotten Ray if we didn't keep Billups. An argument could be made that we would have beaten Memphis with Ray.

Clippersfan86
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It wasn't between Ray and Chauncey it was between Ray and Jamal. Crawford was clearly better than Allen last year and much younger so it was a great decision.

ihave6rolls
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I do not see why JJ play and do just as well as Ray Allen did with Doc Rivers. JJ will never be as good Ray Allen as was in his prime but that is not what we are asking for. JJ can easily make about 44% of his 3's with all the open looks CP3 will provide for him. JJ will thrive with Doc as his coach. Do I expect 20 ppg? No but 16-17 with above average shooting percentages and some high quality D will be perfect for us. Getting JJ was the best acquisition we made this year. He is competitor and will fight every night. I believe that JJ and DJ are the key to pushing our team from a top team in the West to a legit championship competitor. I am excited for this year. The JJ comparison to Ray Allen while he was in Boston is spot on in my opinion.

Voyeur
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I'm just excited to see Wake Forest and Duke in the backcourt. A couple of Tar Heels off the bench. Very Happy

clipperboy24
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Jarca what's the deal man? Everyone of your posts is arguing with other fans about how bad our players are.

Voyeur
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I think Jarca's going for a lowered expectations philosophy.

Agent0
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Just want to mention that raw PPG is not an accurate way of judging a players scoring ability. Minutes affect points, so if you're playing less minutes and scoring less raw PPG, the caliber of scorer that you are doesn't actually change. Redick is a 15-17 PPG caliber scorer in all the roles he's played. Now his actual PPG will be determined by minutes, but his caliber as a scorer is in that range.

About the Grizzlies, we all know Rudy Gay was the key for the Clips. Needed him to jack up shots and take them away from Zach and Marc. Pad his personal PPG but hurt the team offensive production.

All jest aside, that actually did help, but it was also about match ups and the bigs last year matched up better.

jarca
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Just stating my opinion

I am happy about Dudley, Mullen, and collision signing.

Not happy with redick one

prokreation
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Haha, Fully agree with ClipperJoe on this! I rarely agree with ClipperJoe but fully agree with this!

Jarca, Let's see how this team plays with Reddick first. And let's be happy Sterling is spending to win!

Also props to Neil Olshey for NOT giving up Bledsoe for the Chris Paul trade. They wanted Eric Gordon, Kaman, AND Bledsoe. Olshey held firm and we gave up Al Farouq Aminu instead.

By not giving up Bledsoe, we later turned that into Reddick and Dudley.

Who would you rather have... Al Farouq Aminu or Reddick and Dudley?

And who could we have traded for Al Farouq? NO ONE.

BLEDSOE >>> AMINU.

Also by trading Aminu, it SAVED us from the PAIN of not drafting Paul George that year who GREW UP IN LA and was a CLIPPER FAN.

Aminu was a throw in to get CP3 and we needed him as that final chip + 1st round pick.

The rest is history and right now this is our best Clipper Team in History. Let's be positive.

Clippersfan86
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What I find odd about being so against Redick but pro giving Mullens and Collison a chance is that Redick fit wise and production wise will easily be our best acquisition this summer probably. He's one guy we got who can REALLY make a big difference if he meshes in well. If anything I understand skepticism of Mullens and Collison who have been inconsistent in recent years, but Redick has been steady and improving every year even at his age.

uncool
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Repped High Quality Post

JJ is making $6.5 mil

Last year we paid old Chauncey $4 mil

Our alternatives at shooting guard were...

OJ Mayo at $8 mil,

Aaron Afflalo at like $7.5 mil,

Tony Allen at around $5 mil,

Demar Derozen at $9.5 mil...

I think JJ's salary is very fair as a 3pt specialist & at the very least, not a defensive liability. I really don't have an issue with his salary. Out of who I listed I think he's the best value.

Have you considered the alternatives Jarca?

namzug
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That's a great point @uncool when you compare all the other options that we seemed to be looking at we definitely got the best value.

I think on that list Aaron and OJ were the other best options, but Afflalo had a suspect year defensively (which could have been due to carrying the load offensively) and OJ is suspect as a locker room cancer (which could be more of a rep); but for at least a million less we get a guy who doesn't have either problem, sold.

Silasie
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Our team really needed shooting so the FO went out and got it. What's not to like?

uncool
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Thanks for the rep, that's my first one! lol

Clippersfan86
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Keep posting logical and fair stuff and you'll get plenty more I'm sure. Good post Uncool.

jarca
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Same reason u guys hate jordan more. Mullen and collision are making minimum but Redick is making 6.5.

It seems that you have selective standard for players.

It's ok for you to hate on DJ, Butler, Willie Greene, Billups all throughout the season but its not ok for me to criticize signing.

Didn't you go as far as stalking DJ twitter account to bash him?

jarca
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Delfino and belinelli. I thought belinellie was a steal.

Then sign a forward/center like Elton brand

Clippersfan86
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Brand got 5 mill, which we couldn't afford and we needed a starting 2 more than a backup PF. We got Redick in a trade, not free agency. Delfino and Bellineli are nice but neither anywhere as good as Redick.

uncool
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I don't think either would demand the attention & space the floor like Reddick, or run off screens the way JJ & Ray Allen do which Doc loves in his offense. & in those scenarios we keep paying Caron $8 mil & we don't get Dudley for $4 mil. The trade had other benefits to our overall roster and cap space.

Agent0
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I don't know about Beli. David West goes down, New Orleans needs scoring and shooting. Paul is killing the Lakers, and what does Marco do?

.448 TS%, 6.5 PER, 30.8% 3PT, 36.5% FG, 9.7 pts in 28.8 minutes, and not so great on defense.

Okay, that was too big a role for him. He's better as a less option, but Marco is not a "quality" starting SG, though he's not bad. Redick is a better player. He was better with Chicago in the playoffs, well, against a weak defensive Brooklyn team. Against Miami .488 TS%, 33.3% 3PT, 34.0% FG, 10.2 pts in 33.7 MPG.

I don't know about Marco being a better option if you actually want playoff offensive production at SG

Delfino I liked myself, shoots three's and defends, but Barnes and Dudley at SF are both as good or better, so it is fine.

I think what is overlooked is role in the offense. Those two are catch and shoot or on ball players. Redick uses screens so much more than those two, draws more defensive attention and is a better offensive player than both. I'm not sure he makes enough for us to complain too much about his conract.

Voyeur
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I'm just happy we have two starting guards that opposing guards now have to break a sweat defending. Redick may not score 20 a night...maybe not even 15...but he will be active and the other SG knows he can't just let JJ free off screens for the open shot.

Silasie
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You make a good point. Last season our bench was considered one of the deepest in the league but we often were using non starter cailiber players in our starting 5. But now we have 5 genuine starters with the addition addition of JJ and Dudley and that should do wonders for our offence. CP3 and Blake should really feel the benefit.

CP3Heliflopter
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Marco is basically a poor man's Redick. I never even considered him a starting caliber SG. He was more fit to be a 6th man or a 2nd string SG.

Statistically he was always below average and when I watched him on the Hornets I was not impressed to say the least.

Agent0
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I agree with you. If Marco is your starter, it generally means your team has really good players at other positions and can compensate, or you just don't have enough talent. He isn't a starting caliber NBA player though he's a good enough backup SG.

jarca
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For more than half the price of redick. Maybe we wouldn't be stuck with Jamison as a back up big with a lil more than 3.5 mil to spend

jarca
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Ok. Let me ask you this. When did Redick started on a good team? He couldn't beat Courtney Lee when Orlando badly needed a SG. Maybe your rule also apply to Redick who couldn't crack the stating line up regularly in Orlando even the measly Bucks.

Voyeur
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Well they weren't going to let him start over Ellis in Milwaukee, a guy who averaged 19-20 points a game. Aside from their shot blocking, the Bucks were known for their 2 scoring guards. And as far as Orlando. He was still only 2-3 years in the league when it was he and Lee and he's actually admitted to struggling those early years. After that, Orlando had Vince Carter and then Arron Afflalo. Obviously, the veteran Carter would get the nod over Redick. Afflalo joined Orlando as a 15-16 point scorer and a good defender. Honestly, I think all of these aspects, and perhaps an unfortunate stereotype has led to an unwillingness to allow Redick to start for long stretches. But I'll say this, the only playoff series I remember JJ starting was against Doc Rivers' Celtics. And while he didn't score a lot of points, he basically shut Ray Allen down and his Magic team beat Boston. Maybe Doc has remembered that all this time?

JJ's a much more confident player now than he was back then and it's about time he started for some team. He's in almost exactly the position Afflalo was in before he joined the Magic.

Clippersfan86
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Jarca if you're arguing that we should have gotten Billineli instead of Redick you need to take a break from this thread because that's laughable. We didn't use cap on Redick and Bellini is NOWHERE near as good as Barnes and Collison for MLE. You're reaching desperate levels to discredit Redick.

Agent0
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Like 86 said, the team only had the MLE to spend. Remember that Redick was gotten in a sign and trade he didn't use any of the free agency exceptions. It was basically like trading Butler for Redick and Bledsoe for Dudley.

So if we didn't get Redick, the team would still only have the MLE to spend and that was split between Barnes and Collison. Beli is not a better option that either of those.

Now maybe you want to say there was a better trade out there, but if there was, it would probably have happened. I get where you're coming from, but that wasn't the actual situation, Redick had no effect on the amount of money available to sign player.


In terms of starting, I don't really paint wide brushes. Willie Green started on a good Clippers team, does that mean he would have had more credibility than Harden who never started on a good team since he was the 6th man?

Redick averaged 24.7 MPG over three seasons on a 59 win, 52 win, and 37-29 Orlando team. I would say that's contribution enough to warrant some sort of respect as a decent player.

dukenilnil
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*Off topic* I am new to these boards so my post total is low. I understand keeping boards high quality (that's great) but it's a bit annoying that I was blocked from seeing a thread that I started until I jumped through some hopes.

dukenilnil
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As others said, the Lee situation was early in Redick's career and he has vastly improved from then. I would venture that the Lee situation was a motivating factor in Redick's improvement.

Jarca, judging from your post count, I'd surmise you watch a fair amount of NBA basketball. Certainly, you understand that politics, pay scale, and fit often have more to do with who starts than pure talent level. On those Magic teams, Redick could do more than Carter and AA and that (and those players higher salary and cache) is why he was on the second unit. The 2nd unit in Orlando lacked a good point guard and distributor and the first unit lacked a slasher. Thus, the 2 slashers (Carter and AA) needed to play with the first unit and a good secondary distributor (Redick) had to play with the second unit.

What shows true value better than who starts is who finishes games. For most of the last 5 seasons (even on the Bucks), Redick as a 4th quarter finisher. Stan Van Gundy always talked about how much he trusted Redick and wanted him in there at the end of games. When the game was on the line, Redick would play in both Orl and Mil. That speaks more to his value than any conclusions based solely on his number of starts.

Besides, during that time, the Chicago Bulls signed Redick to an offer sheet to presumably start for them. So there was a top flight team that wanted him to be the starting SG years ago.

Of course, all of this is a bit silly because, unless people are impostors here, none of us has the pedigree of Doc Rivers so I'll trust his judgment.

namzug
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I think the best thing about Redick that could have probably of been said about a few other options is that, the way he likes to shoot can really be useful. Since he can shoot coming off screens and off movement, DJ can go set an off ball screen when Blake get's the ball on the other block and he will have a great shooting option. I really thought Vinny should have tried something like this last season, to not allow the big covering DJ to help with Blake.

I can see it now, DJ's defender sneaks off to help with Blake and loses DJ on the right block; then DJ goes to set a screen off the ball for JJ; JJ sneaks to the corner; Blake sees him wide open in the corner and dishes off for the second most efficient shot in basketball today.

Clippersfan86
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Private message David, not sure how the new filter works. Sorry it's been a problem though, hope you keep posting.

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