Clippers Vs. Nuggets Preseason Game Thread 2013-10-19 (P. 4)

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ArtMaggot
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DC is making me say Eric who?

Silasie
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I did miss it, as I usually do. The game started at 3.30am where I am. I will download hopefully though it often takes a day or so to come onto the site I use.

pageC4
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good observation. I think perhaps because Mullens and Jamison aren't good defenders maybe a defensive guard would fare better overall. Damn.

Silasie
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Apart from Barnes none of the second unit are good on D so Doc will have to not have all of them on at the same time.

ClippersDA
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I missed game only saw bits and pieces...but honest question for those who saw it - did our offense really look any different from last season last night? Paul taking all the shits down stretch and blake not Ttempting bucket? Also there seems to be stretches every game in which we don't score for four or five minutes. That worries me. We need a better interior defender and it seems like we still can't defend the three. Like it does not matter the coach or system, we still give up wide open threes.

pageC4
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I know it is troublesome.

clipperboy24
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I think reggie bullock will be a very good defender so that should help if he is.

Clippersfan86
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Due to the defensive woes of the bench we need Barnes as much as anybody.

uncool
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I would just say be a little more patient. The team was short handed & CP was on fire so Doc let him go to work. I highly doubt he'll do that too often, but it's nice to know he can. Our best player should take over when he can.

ClippersDA
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Wow autocorrect is horrible, I'm sorry I meant to say cp3 was taking all the *shots* last night down stretch

Agent0
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Yup, that was the conclusion basically the whole time, and actually about the whole bench, we switched defense for offense.

It's a wash, between Collison and Bledsoe from last season, though of course Bledsoe has the potential to be even better. If the bench had bigs that could defend, the offense is more valuable than the defense from PG. Sadly they don't, but the offense is still good to have.

It would be nice to get some balance. Barnes will help, Bullock is good, but he's the same position as Barnes. Is it too much to ask for one of Hollins or Mullens to be serviceable though?

Still, Collison has the same instincts for pushing the ball, he's bad at post feeding, but his best skill as a PG is running pick ad pop. If Mullens could make more shots, Collison is a good fit with Jamison and Mullens in theory.

Icecoldclipper
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Some things I picked up during the game

-Dudley not playing seemed strange last night when we needed defense but it could of been he played heavy during the game before. Overall I want Dudley to be aggressive on both ends with his shot and on defense I need to see him take perimeter defensive anchor role.

-Mullens has to know he can't shoot so many threes. His focus should be to find ways to score without it being from deep. On defense toughness has to go way up more consistently

Jordan has to be more focused and get back to having a chip on his shoulder. Had a good game for time played but with the roster and front court depth he can't let fouls and techs happen he is digging a hole for the team.

-BG will have an elite year if he can stay healthy.

Clippersfan86
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Agreed on all counts. Given our defensive woes Bledsoe>Collison probably BUT you also gotta give him 2-3 times the salary of Collison AT LEAST by the end of the year. Bledsoe is looking to prove himself individually, Collison said he cares about nothing anymore but getting a ring.

Once Bullock, Barnes and Redick get back.. I expect the bench defense+rebounding to get a boost as well as obviously the starting 5 on offense/defense. Barnes will essentially be asked to anchor the bench D and he will likely play 2, 3 and 4 a lot this year. I think Bullock+Barnes+Hollins were be at least passable as a defensive trio off the bench. Hollins is very good defending PNR if he can just stop the idiotic fouls and overly aggressive screens.

CP3Heliflopter
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We got Collison for super cheap and its not a 1v1 comparison anyway. Collison is going to earn less and we got Redick + Dudley in the trade as well while getting rid of an overpaid SF(no offense Butler). It was a major win for us to get a comparable PG AND a nice SG + SF upgrade.

Collison is better offensively but much worse defensively. Overall, its a small downgrade at best but a huge upgrade at two other starting spots.

I noticed that our starting unit demolished the opposing starting unit but our bench has become a liability due to no defense playing "chuckers" like Mullens and Jamison(its true sad to say). This isn't an overreaction this has been the consensus when it comes to those two players for a while. Like I said our backup bigs=our Achilles heel and anyone who thinks thats not a HUGE issue will be in for a rude awakening.

Barnes will definitely help our bench but unless our backup bigs get better things do not look so good for our bench. Last season we had Odom(a great defensive anchor believe it or not), Bledsoe, and a healthy Barnes. Now we only have Barnes.

CP3Heliflopter
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I prefer that he saves it for the playoffs. He is injury prone as it is and I prefer we don't have close games like this anyway. We should be blowing teams out especially Denver which is significantly worse when they are not at home(and Denver has gotten worse from last season too).

Great game from Paul though I am not surprised since I know that he is capable of doing this and more (if he wants to).

DeadPoet
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Absolutely. Bench need some better plays and fast passing together with Jamison. Mullens has to dunk more or take some jump shots in the middle. Not always the same thing...

And the biggest problem of his 3's is, that he is normaly the man with the offense rebounding chance ^^

This game gave some hope that Jamison could be a solid defender with the right tactic. finger crossed...

ClippersDA
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I agree we need someone like odom on the bench. That is the missing piece IMHO. Dudley has not overly impressed me - how is he better than caron? Caron was a really good three point shooter.

CP3Heliflopter
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You are basing this off what? Some preseason games when Dudley is trying to adjust to our team? Careerwise Dudley shoots the 3 at over 40% while Butler shoots it at under 34%. For the last three seasons(after Butler's injury in Dallas) Dudley has also been the better rebounder, passer and defender.

How exactly is Butler better? You tell me. Nothing statistically suggests he is or in terms of eye test either. Dudley is the better mid ranged jump shooter, 3 point shooter and does not lose the ball with those bizarre isos Butler still does. He knows his role and is very good at it.

pageC4
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I have seen him play in summer league and yes he proved to be a good defender. We may need that more than ever. With Bullock and Barnes playing that should give us some better defenders out.

CP3Heliflopter
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The problem is how will Bullock even get minutes? We have a rotation of Dudley and Barnes at the SF AND Redick/Crawford/Green at the SG position.

ClipperKyle32
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For you who missed it! The highlights really don't even come close to the excitement of the real game but here they are

pageC4
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Bullock provides solid defense. Its up to Doc to use him as he sees fit. I'm not suggesting using Bullock as the second unit SG, but if for some reason we need a stopper at the moment he would be a better option than Crawford.

tense2
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Well, I guess if your definition of a really good 3pt shooter is someone with a LT shooting percentage of 33.9% (Caron) rather than a 40.5% (Dudley) then I would say yes, LOL.

Caron was a nice guy and a good Clipper but one the weakness links (below average for his position) in the starting 5 last year.

Agent0
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To be fair and more accurate of what a Clippers fan perception of Butler would be, he shot 37.5% 3PT on 4.2 3PA in his two seasons as Clipper. That is quite good an above league average. His 3PT shooting has definitely improved from his first 5 seasons where he shot 30.3% on 1.3 3PA.

That's scary because he's been just as bad a mid-range shooter as a 3PT shooter over his career, so at least he's better off taking the ones that gets more points. He does need to you know, move towards the rim more often, and he certainly needs to contribute in other areas when he isn't shooting on offense.

...but again, we did understand that he was low risk with possible decent reward, so the baseline expectation certainly should not have been that he would be a good player in general, let alone right away.

CP3Heliflopter it's not even the scoring, it's just pushing the ball and playing in a manner that makes the other team feel that he's always a threat to score. It just opens up his game more. Also, really if you're so injury prone that you're going to get injured, pacing yourself will preserve stamina in a singular game, but I don't think it's going to stop you from getting any injury that you are susceptible to.


Lastly, I think we should all look at some of these pre-season numbers as we make our pre-season conclusions:

Lebron James: 12.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.4 apg, 47.2% FG, 25.0% 3PT, 63.2% FT, 24 mpg

Joe Johnson: 8.6 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, 2.2 tpg, 44.4% FG, 27.8% 3PT, 22.2 mpg

Paul Pierce: 4.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.3 tpg, 26.3% FG, 18.2% 3PT, 19.8 mpg

Ryan Gomes: 12 mins

Last year pre-season: Jeremy Lin: 6.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 6.0 apg, 28.3% FG, 23.1% 3PT, 25.3 mpg

Okay, I just had to throw the Ryan Gomes one in there.

It is definitely pre-season though, and teams are trying some things out, players are getting used to each other, some plays are being tested to see how they work, shot distributions aren't exactly how they will be in the season, some guys are given more leeway, some guys are trying to gauge how they fit around everyone.

Alright, it's all good Smile

CP3Heliflopter
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People really should have realized a long time ago preseason games don't mean squat when it comes to star players. They are barely trying and they use it as a warmup. Its not really a good indicator of anything.

Anyway I don't really agree with the notion with pushing the pace. Its overrated and stars always say they will push the pace but don't end up doing it. I think Lebron and Paul who love playing at a slow pace have done quite well with themselves when it comes to running their team offenses. Playing slow has its advantages as well. Of course this does not mean pushing the pace isn't good depending on the situation but lets just say if the Clippers are a below average pace team yet again I am not complaining. If Paul was a bit more aggressive/shot the ball more it would be nice but I think most Clippers/CP3 fans feel that way.

Agent0
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It would be nice for him to push the pace more for everyone else, mainly his athletic big men than for himself. In the playoffs, that will be one of the ways to have DJ actually be more useful on offense.

There's certainly benefits to both methods, but when you can push the pace effectively and are a player / team that can execute well in the half-court, you have the best of both worlds. Paul obviously is that type of guy. SA for example has actually been a fast paced team the past few seasons (7th and 6th in pace), but they are also excellent in the half court. Best of both worlds Smile

CP3Heliflopter
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That Is why I said it is situational. Paul should definitely push the pace a bit more and play more aggressively but I don't expect him to run a team with top 10 pace or anything like that. I expect Collison to push the ball a lot since its his strong suit while I expect Paul to run a bit more than he usually does.

What I mean is he should push the pace IF in that situation it would be favorable/advantageous to do so. Some teams constantly run. I don't want us to be one of those teams.

Agent0
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You talking smack about Denver?

I get what you are saying, and I agree

CP3Heliflopter
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I know its a rhetorical question but no. Denver's team was built for running and not a good half-court team. Not to mention it was advantageous to run a lot at home due to their altitude advantage.

Playing at such a ridiculous fast pace did lead to more injuries and makes it harder to get back defensively in time. On the flip side it helped Denver overachieve in RS(the coaching was good too).

uncool
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NBAtv just showed the worst clutch time (final 5 minutes within 5 pts) 3pt shooters in the league & Jared Dudley is 3rd worst at 3/19, 15.8%... Maybe Barnes should close games...

Voyeur
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He probably will. Or we might see the 3 guard lineup at the end.

pageC4
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Wow, Dudley is not exactly starting off hot. I just hope that people here are right and that Dudley will heat up in the regular season

Agent0
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Yea, like I said, Pierce for example is shooting like 20 something percent, so it shouldn't be a worry. Dudley has 376 games and 1069 3PA sample of 41.2% 3PT shooting. I think we should trust that sample size over a couple of pre-season games Wink

It was more of a facetious statement than a rhetorical question, lol, I was just joking.

We do have to also give them that Danilo got injured, and Faried too in terms of their playoff performance. Also a healthy Bogut did change the level of play of Golden State.

Also we have to take into account that:

SA: 6th in pace / 3rd in Drtg

OKC: 10th in pace / 4th in Drtg

The top 4 defenses split with 2 top 10 pace teams and 2 bottom 10 ones. Going against the grain OKC and SA.

Pace and defense are not mutually exclusive though, you can do both, depends on coaching, personnel, etc. Some paced teams now have defensive struggles not because of not getting back, etc, but because they sacrifice size and rebounding for better shooting and do small ball.

Some of the worst and below average defensive teams, Charlotte, New Orleans, Portland, Detroit, etc were all below league average pace. It always depends if a team is giving up defense to play faster or giving up defense for offense.

I don't know about saying pace causes significantly more injuries though (is there a study on this?). I agree in a large scale (high school pace to NBA pace difference for example), but in this context, we're talking about 2 more offensive and two more defensive possessions a game as the difference between being 19th in pace last year and 10th in pace. It is a difference, that's 4 more possessions a game, but I don't know if it is an injury risk difference.

Denver had 6 guys play 79+ games and 8 guys play 70+ games, that's a healthy team. Also they were a decent defensive team when we take into account personnel and defensive coaching.

With that said, I'm not thinking the Clippers should do some balls out run and fun stuff. Even Phoenix actually did a lot of secondary break, quick hitting stuff in half-court, and it really wasn't just this transition always stuff people perceived it to be.

We also have to think that if you play with pace as the Clippers you also play CP about 33-34 MPG instead of like 36 MPG. Might balance out right? CP though has been overly committed to half court, for two reasons, 1) his stamina hasn't always been at the level he would need to play faster consistently 2) he likes to minimize mistakes, and what better way than to be slow.

Unexpected pace does have it's value though. That is running when the opponent won't expect it, it's always good to throw that in every one in a while to keep them honest. If not for that, Westbrook would hardly be a good PG, lol

...but seriously, why you hating on Denver?

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