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Clippersfan86
Post Subject: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408475by Clippersfan86 » Oct 22, 2013 - 03:07 PM PST
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http://clipperblog.com/2013/10/22/mythb ... s-edition/

Very good and accurate stuff.



                
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Agent0
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408481by Agent0 » Oct 22, 2013 - 04:49 PM PST
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Some people were mad at me in the summer for saying the exact same thing they said about Mullens actual ability as a floor spacer.

I specifically said that strategically as a team you would rather sag in on Blake (Paul, etc) and weak contest on Mullens than play him tight because Blake scoring inside is like 25% higher eFG% wise than a Mullens three, and Mullens hadn't been a good open shot maker so far in his career. Mullens will have to prove his a high percentage shot maker for teams so stick to him, it won't be the natural reaction for a good defense.

Also mentioned that Mullens stepping in and shooting long mid-range is worse cause then as opposed to his like ~47% eFG on three's (~4.8 pts on 5 three's, 0.96 points/shot) he's now shooting like 32% eFG (~3.2 pts on 5 long mid-range jumpsers, 0.64 pts/shot). So therefore he isn't actually spacing the floor if teams aren't running hard to him and/or sticking to him outside.

I was told that despite him not being a good shooter, 32% is good because he's a 7 footer and not many guys his height can hit that well from outside or something like that.

I feel slighted, tisk, tisk Wink

Shooting is shooting though, a low percentage from outside on many attempts is not less bad because you play a certain position.

I want Mullens to play well as much as the next person because that helps the team, but it's always nice to be able to (and allowed to) both be realistic about the team and the players while also wanting everyone to massively overachieve. We don't have to be massive homers with rose colored glasses about everything the team does.

    I think people say chucker way too much. Jamal is a chucker based on his shot selection and going out of the offense though, but chucker does not also mean bad or unwilling passer. You can be bother, but being one doesn't make you the other.

    Chris Paul has never been "pass first" in the way people understand it. He's a willing passer but also an excellent scorer. A lot of people have mined up inability or weak ability to score with being "pass" first. The best PG's are the ones that both pass and scorer very well.

    Jordan's overpaid label also came from his low minutes (however much is attributed to coaching), and his non-production in the playoffs. C's get paid, true, but people also want production and reliability with that

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CP3Heliflopter
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408482by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 05:06 PM PST
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The absolute worse one aside from all BG does is dunk is definitely the stupid notion that Paul is the best "passing PG" as if he wasn't a capable scorer in his own rite. If he wanted to score he could score on similar volume on higher efficiency compared to his peers imo. I hate the notion of the passing pg just as much as the notion of a "pure scorer". It is a terrible label that often is given to players who are inept scorers that pass a lot(Rondo) and in the case of pure scorer players that can score and do little else(Melo). CP3 is elite in both passing and scoring which is why he is the best PG in the league imo. No other PG has his combination of scoring, shooting, passing, Assist/TO ratio, clutchness, and defense(his defense is overrated but he is still better than most Pgs).

I am already familiar of all the myths in this article but still a good read.

                
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Silasie
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408487by Silasie » Oct 22, 2013 - 05:57 PM PST
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^

It's so true. CP is amazing he can decide weather he wants to score or does he want his team mate to score. He seems to be able to find himself a mid range jumper pretty much any time he fancies it. No wonder he likes to play so much. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if he just decided to score as much as he could.

                
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CapsNClips
Post ID: 408490by CapsNClips » Oct 22, 2013 - 07:05 PM PST
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I agree with everything you said, but why is Chris an overrated defender?

If we aren't talking about steals, you could still say Chris is an amazing communicator on both ends of the floor which is a huge defensive tool that is vastly underrated, also not many PG's can abuse Chris in the low block because of his bowling ball type body.

I guess Chris's one knock on defense would be that he goes for steals a lot, but when you come up with around 2.5 a game it's worth it. Nobody mentions Dwight or Ibaka going after every ball so they can get their blocks. I've seen Chris argue to the refs about a call and they ended up switching the call, I've seen him fluster PG's so much that they use up almost all of the shot clock just trying to get away, I've seen him take charges on guys twice his size.

I'd take Chris on defense over almost any PG in the league except maybe like future John Wall because of his ability to chase down and block a shot, and he's the fastest player in the league.

                
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CapsNClips
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408494by CapsNClips » Oct 22, 2013 - 07:27 PM PST
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Give me 2.5 steals a game from Chris over 4 blocks a game from any Center. Blocked shots don't always result in a TO, they are usually blocked out of bounds. 2.5 steals = 2.5 TO's and with Chris's court vision and speed usually translates to instant points.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 408497by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 07:55 PM PST
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Actually CP3's greatest advantage on defense is the fact that he goes for steals. He generates lots of turnovers without gambling a lot. He is an excellent help defender but his man to man defense is limited due to his size. He is a very good defender but when I hear stuff like he should be in the convo for DPOY I cringe a bit. Generally speaking I think his offense is underrated while his defense is a bit overrated. He is a much higher impact offensive player than guys like Melo for instance.

Overall, I think he has maximized his defensive potential. A guy of that height, with a relatively short wingspan and standing reach is usually a defensive liability but his great anticipation, basketball iq, and lightning quick hands makes him a very capable defender.

Guys I definitely take over CP3 in terms of defense:

Mike Conley Rubio(he is similar to CP3 in terms of his excellent anticipation and basketball iq but he actually has better physical tools) Bledsoe(self explanatory)

Debatable:

Rondo(way too inconsistent defensively in terms of effort and is prone to gambling).

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 408498by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 07:57 PM PST
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True from a pure stats perspective steals>blocks from a pure stats perspective but a great defensive PG can never give you excellent rim protection and intimidate opposing players from driving to the basket.

PGs cannot anchor defenses for the most part with a few exceptions when it comes to big PGs like Jason Kidd and the Glove and they still don't do it nearly as well as the big guys like Russell, Hakeem, Drob, etc.

                
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uncool
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408500by uncool » Oct 22, 2013 - 08:23 PM PST
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Sorry, off-topic but idk where to post this random comment...

I'm watching a DET preseason game and Anndre Drummund looks like DJ's twin. The version of DJ that we're seeing now is basically what Drum already is, and it just makes me hate VDN even more because I feel like DJ had this in him all along.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 408502by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 08:33 PM PST
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They are actually very similar but I think Drummond had more upside to begin with.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 408505by Agent0 » Oct 22, 2013 - 08:56 PM PST
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CP3Heliflopter: PGs cannot anchor defenses for the most part with a few exceptions when it comes to big PGs like Jason Kidd and the Glove and they still don't do it nearly as well as the big guys like Russell, Hakeem, Drob, etc. Or long athletic wings too, they can anchor defenses better also because of versatility. A long athletic wing can guard 3 positions (maybe 4 if they are a big SF), they can cover a lot of ground, they are at times even shot blockers. Most of the time your PG can only guard other PG's, and maybe SG's if he's a bigger PG.

It's not really anything that's their fault, it's just the reality of being little and playing at the top of the defense where you don't have as much vision of all that is going on.

It's sort of the way the fans or media that support that players give them more props than they deserve. No, Rondo is not the best PG, but he is the best "pure" PG, whatever that is supposed to mean (usually that he can pass but sucks at scoring). Carmelo isn't the best scorer in the league when we take scoring rate and efficiency into account, but he's the best "pure scorer" purely based on subjective analysis and no concrete results in comparison to for example Lebron.

It's like the way of ranking a player higher than they should be by adding other stipulations to it. Paul has always been just an excellent PG, there's no label to what he does, career averages of 19/10 is not a "pass first PG", that's a guy that just rocks at basketball.

CP3Heliflopter, I think we are just agreeing on everything. Paul does get overrated on defense when people think of him as a shut-down defender. He isnt, but he's a very good one. Still he struggles from the things related to being small, he can be shot over easily, nothing he can do about it. Conley also has that issue. Bledsoe, Wall, Bradley if you don't put him at SG are all excellent PG defenders too, arguably better than CP, some just do to pure physical advantages.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408506by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 09:00 PM PST
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People say Lebron can guard all 5 positions so you are wrong about only 4!

In all seriousness in terms of defensive impact its usually bigs>wings>pgs but generally speaking in terms of offensive impact its usually Pgs~wings>bigs.

Oh and Lebron can guard 1-4 but 5 is iffy so in my opinion its kind of myth when people say that. Like I said there are exceptions when it comes to PGs only if you are big like Kidd or Payton who can guard 3 positions.

Even the best wing defenders of all time like Pippen, Jordan, Lebron will never be equal to someone like Hakeem defensively. There is just a huge advantage in being big.

                
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Agent0
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408508by Agent0 » Oct 22, 2013 - 09:10 PM PST
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Haha, nice, yea, they do, and I agree, don't really believe he can guard C, there's no reason to even put him there.

One thing I would re-assess is offensively. I would argue that wings might have the advantage in that if they are as good offensively as a PG, again with the nature of being bigger, they just have some advantages in creating shots in certain situations that PG's don't, despite most PG's having superior handles. They also have the advantage over most PG's that they can develop their game to become post players and take advantage of the consistency in scoring and facilitating from the post in ways a PG just can't.

Poor little guys

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post Subject: RE: Clipperblog: Mythbusters Clippers Edition Post ID: 408510by CP3Heliflopter » Oct 22, 2013 - 09:22 PM PST
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That Is what I was thinking but I didn't want to say it. Wing players probably do have a slight advantage offensively though small guys usually are better passers. Small guys really do get the small end of the stick overall sadly but height makes a big difference in basketball. There is a reason elite players who are 6'0 or shorter are an extreme rarity.

                
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