Blake Griffin's Shot Regression

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Clippersfan86
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I know there is a rebounding thread already but they aren't the same obviously, so I wanted to talk about it. Anybody else noticing that this preseason and game 1 that his hitch has returned full force? I don't get it. He has a full time shooting coach he works with... and instead of a permanent improvement it's a bunch of up and down on the shot. Some games he will hit 5 jumpers.. some he will go 1-6 from midrange. Some games he will hit 8-9 free throws.. some he will hit 3-10.

What's more confusing to me is... he's such a hard worker so why has it been so slow to improve? Ibaka had a shot as bad as Blake and in just ONE summer.. he came back a money midrange shooter. Why can't Blake do it in one full summer too? Maybe he needs to stop working on 7 things at once and really put 110 percent into one or two things each summer?

Silasie
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People are different and they learn differently and at different rates. What Ibaka did doesn't have all that much bearing on Blake's progress.

I don't know what is going on with Blake's shot but as you say we do know he is working hard.

jarca
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People always say he's working hard. He's the hardest working player that keeps regressing. Hope he proves me wrong but I was very critical of him doing more commercials and Jordan tour than actually spending time with Hakeem

jarca
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Rick Pitino once said this about Antoine Walker and I think it applies to Blake as well. He said that Antoine Walker is a gym rat that he stays in the gym from 10am-4pm. But he never saw any improvement on his game because he never works on his weakness.

Like Blake shunning Hakeem so he can go to Europe, make commercials, and promote his brand. I don't doubt that he's a gym rat but what is he working on? Hasn't he been working on his jumper since his rookie season?

uncool
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I think we're overreacting... It was one game, he had a really bad game and scored 19. that means we'll probably see a lot more 30 point games from him than we did last year. And Doc is force-feeding Blake now because he knows he's not polished yet, and it might cost us a few reg season games, but unlike VDN, Doc knows that the only way to really improve is to fail, sometimes repeatedly, in games, and by the playoffs, BG and all of us should reap the benefits! I know it sucked to lose to 'them' but let's chill out, we're a good team but we're not great yet, with so much turnover, which we wanted and needed, it'll take at least 20 games to really start clicking.

IN DOC I TRUST.

ClipsGForce
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IT'S ONLY ONE GAME!!

hibachiballer00
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I would be satisfied if we just improves his ft % from 30%.

hibachiballer00
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sorry, I meant he improves his ft %

ClipperPostman
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Really? Another blake thread after one game. This is a silly thread honestly. Wait until

the end of the season and lets see whether blake has "Regressed". He scored 19

points in his first game.

How many did Lebron score in his first game?

How many did howard score?

How many did wade score?

Alright then relax and be a REAL fan.

Phu7
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Yes, it is only one game but his shot wasn't pretty in the preseason too.

namzug
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Yeah I agree with @uncool and @clipsgforce, it was one game where the whole team seemed tight and wound up. They seemed to be forcing a lot, and didn't play well due them trying so hard at showing their new stuff.

He did have that hitch again and seemed hesitant, but that will go away once he builds some confidence in his shot. I think we all saw him shoot much better up until this last game, so I will wait to see how his shot looks once he gets a few to go in and builds some confidence. I don't expect his free throw percentage to go down from last year so I'm not going to worry to much over one game; if it is the same after a month or two then maybe I'll panic.

uncool
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His mid-range and ft's didn't look that bad preseason, actually I got excited about his mid-range in a few games...

Clippersfan86
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Did you read my post? I'm basing this on all of last season, playoffs, summer, preseason AND this one game.

uncool
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I wasn't calling you out specifically, a lot of people, I feel, are being impatient with Blake. It was only preseason & a game so far under Doc & I'm seeing positive signs. Attacking from more efficient spots, shooting his midrange w/o pausing, giving effort on D... I know it didn't all come together but if he gets beat up this much after a 19 pt 7 reb night, I can't wait till he has good games, or even average games!

CP3Heliflopter
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I am really disappointed in his progression. Most superstars make large leaps already by their third season or at least by their fourth season. BG on the other hand has not made any noticeable leap and has regressed in certain areas like rebounding. I don't mind if his raw ppg goes down but I expect numbers around 20+ ppg with 10+ boards on very good efficiency(better jumper, post game and fts) with solid-good defense. Right now I am seeing 20 ppg with a mediocre jumper, an ok post game and not sure about fts yet. His defense is still inconsistent at best. In terms of boards I am not sure if he will reach double digits this season which is disappointing to say the least. He does not box out well enough and doesn't hustle enough on the boards or defense.

For those people who say ITS JUST ONE GAME. No I am not referring to "one game". I am referring to how much he has progressed in the three seasons I have seen him play and lets just say the progression hasn't been anything to write home about and no it has little to do with playing with another star in CP3. That is no excuse for not crashing the boards and being an inconsistent defender and it has nothing to do with how much his jump shot, post game, and free throws have improved.

If he doesn't take the jump this season I am afraid the criticism of Blake will just increase. It doesn't matter how "hard you work" if it doesn't lead to tangible results. I am not trying to put Blake down or anything. I have been a firm supporter and defender of him but his progress has just been disappointing. My hope is that he proves me very very wrong this season. We will see.

Clippersfan86
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Even if he had 25 and 7... it's not about his stats. It's about how poorly he played and his mental focus. Numbers can be good but have low impact and that's what it was for him. He made too many errors to count. It's not impatience at this point. Most guys make the leap in their 3rd year, this is Blake's 4th... if I don't start seeing a big leap this year or at the very latest next year... we need to think about lowering our expectations of Blake A LOT and making some moves on the team to get to the next step.

Agent0
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1) It's one game, so we can't say if he's improved or not

2) I actually think his problem is that he's listened too intently to the current general teaching on shooting and tried to be so precise which isn't a good thing. Sadly, this teaching does not make you a great shooter. If you shoot perfectly square, shoulder width, don't dip, your shot won't work, and actually not dipping a little can cause you to hitch on your shot, which might be why Blake can't "ditch the hitch". What you find is that players who shoot in a more natural way with some of the principles are the best shooters

3) Even if he improves, I can't see consistent shooting with his mechanics right now

I said it in the other thread, Blake needs to get the guys from pro shooting system. It isn't that Bob Thate is a bad coach, he's probably great if you have so e shooting feel and don't do everything by the book. The issue might be that he's living in the shooting fog:

So a guy like Blake without a natural feel who is just trying to textbook (and the textbook is wrong) everything, the improvements just aren't going to come like you would expect based on his work.

Blake has a stiff shot, he shoots straight up and down, so he gets a lot of front rim and has bad arch. Blake doesn't dip the ball when he shoots, he's probably learned the keep the ball high method, and it's just not a comfortable and extremely effective way of shooting.

These are Blake's issues:

Wrong practice -

Starting position of the ball -

Straight up and down -

Possibly the turn, I haven't watched closely -

Maybe shoulder width too -

Now, if Blake just had one issue, he would be fine, but he has multiple. Ibaka was used an example, and he's the difference.

Here is Ibaka shooting:

Ibaka turns his feet, Ibaka dips the ball as opposed to keeping it straight up, Ibaka has a bit of a sway and Ibaka has no hitch. It has little to do with who practiced their shot more and all to do with who has better shooting mechanics. Bob Thate is most likely teaching what the majority teach, but sadly it just isn't correct, and many of their players don't actually shoot "square, straight up and down, keep the ball high".

Here's Kidd:

He turns his feet, he dips the ball, and he has one motion on his shot. I'm not sure if he sways, we would need to see a different angle. It's just more natural to do those things and not stiff.

Here's a better one for Kidd:

Turn, dips the ball, one motion, feet go forward

This is from a couple of months ago, but watch Blake:

No dip, keeps the ball high, which will naturally cause a pause/hitch at the top when he's now "starting his shot", no turn, both feet are square to the basket as opposed to his shooting hip and shoulder. Now of he shoots a jump shot, he's going straight up and down. You can't have almost all the things that make your shot not work so well and be a consistent shooter.

If Blake started his shot from a dip position, then there's no need to pause and get the ball into a ready motion. As he's bringing the ball up after catching, he's thinking shoot and firing the ball.

You see him trying to set the ball high before shooting, and that's where the hitch comes from. That one fix will increase his consistency and accuracy and make his shot more comfortable.

You also see that it looks more natural with his left hand and when he goes to range and isn't as focused on keep the ball high, etc, but you still see him shooting mechanical in terms of straight up and down and shooting square?

Add the turn fix to get his shoulder and hip square, it increases even more. Add the sweep and sway and his jump shot accuracy / consistency goes up too. All three and you're making a good shooter. He keeps practicing the same way and consistency is just never going to happen.

renshaibob
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from prvious post Agent Zero.....Bob Thate is most likely teaching what the majority teach, but sadly it just isn't correct, and many of their players don't actually shoot "square, straight up and down, keep the ball high".

man i always think this when i see an old guy teaching young kids how to shoot, i had a coach like that trying to teach me the 1970's proper form of shooting being all stiff and rigid and it just didn't work for me, it worked for a teammate of mine but was to rigid for me. my natural form was with elbow cocked out a bit. I would say that Blake may just need a new coach, nothing against Thate it's just his style may be to rigid and form fitting for Blake, Blake shot does look awful it's all jerky and rushed at certain spot's it's really hard to look at. He would be better suited with a Reggie Miller let it fly approach. Some times it even looks like he is pushing the ball at the end of his stroke and that may be causing some of his elbow problems.

ArmoClipFan
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Blake is not a superstar. He Is not gonna be that mvp we hoped he would become. He's the third or fourth best player on a championship team. People don't see but Deandre has a much more positive impact on the game them blake. DJ's defense has been phenomanal so far. It's his FIFTH YEAR ALREADY... CLIPPERNATION NEEDS TO REALIZE he's not gonna improve anymore, it is what it is, he's a one dimensional player with an incredible ability to playmake and dribble for his size. His short arms have fucked him, he's not able to score over peope.. Dj though is on his way up.. I have high hopes for dj #top5center

Agent0
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The problem actually comes from the fact that the square way of shooting that is taught came from two handed shooting. If you are shooting two handed you need to be square cause both hands need to be lineup up with the basket.

Oscar Robertson actually started the turn and he was one of the early super successful one handed shooters. He didn't shoot square because shooting square with one hand doesn't actually make sense. Some people would think Oscar's form was unconventional, but for one handed shooting, he was a genius.

So yea, it isn't that Thate is bad, it's just that Thate is teaching what he knows. The coach in that video taught all those same things but he realized that it just wasn't working for every player, and the ones that were shooting well weren't actually following the rules. He saw players doing things that don't fit into teaching but were better shooters than those following the teaching.

It's not just him talking, it's him showing countless footage of great shooters using the mechanics that are against what he actually used to teach. If this is how the great shooters are shooting, then I'll take that over "well this is how basketball coaches have always taught shooting".

I actually had the same issue that I would shoot turned and dip and I was a good shooter and people tried to make me "even better" and have me square up and keep the ball high and it made me a worse shooter. I've gone back to how I used to shoot more naturally now though. I'm not mad at anyone, they thought they were helping, but it set my shooting back for a couple of years in my youth. It was frustrating.

CamoCLip
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This is most definitely Blakes make or break season. I just don't get why he still takes that deep two. Maybe he hits them all the time in practice but he sure as hell is inconsistent in games. He should of concentrated on refining his post game to the point where he's a serious threat down low instead of focusing on his shot for three seasons straight and getting nowhere with it.

uncool
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You say "most guys make the leap in their 3rd year"... Okay, but what if he's a little different? Seems like DJ just made a leap in his, what, 5th year? Most guys don't spend their 1st 3yrs with a moron like VDN as their coach either! So as for me, I'm choosing to give him another 41 games to show me something. And what choice do we really have? 98% of us would've been pissed if we moved him for Aldridge. We also forget that he's the reason CP3 wanted to come here & probably 40% of why Chris stayed. Maybe trade him for KLove even though I don't trust his health. But that's the only move you can sell me on, otherwise let's sit back and watch Doc work.

uncool
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Its DJ's fifth year and Blake's forth year of playing. Blake's development still probably has 1 huge leap coming.

ClipperPostman
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Lets not forget clippers just won the most games in franchise history

with blakes "Regression". I can't tell if this is a Laker fan site

or a clippers fan site.

uncool
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THANK YOU! Look how spoiled we're getting after 2 good years...

pageC4
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we just have higher goals now. Those goals won't be achieved if growth of skills do not happen. The game against Lakers was telling for various reasons. Horrible free throws by our bigs, bad shots by Blake, terrible 3 point defense from the entire team..etc. It's not bashing on the clippers, its holding people accountable and discussing deficiencies so they can be corrected.

CP3Heliflopter
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Well for Lebron and Durant too but neither are realistic. Razz

I don't want him to be traded. I want to see him take the next step. Our window isn't that large. CP3 won't be in his prime forever.

toohipcliptoslip
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While the closest to a basketball shot that I can do is tossing a peanut in my mouth I did for over ten years study Samurai sword and other Japanese weapon. The shooting form they espouse is very similar to sword.

In archery they teach perfect form first. They don't care if you hit the target or the wall. Only when your form is perfect do they shoot at a target for real. If you are off two inches to the left you move your body two inches to the right but keep your form.

With a sword the cut is started at waist level keeping totally relaxed and allowing the body to do as it will. Perfect form will put the body in perfect position without thinking. This causes the blade to move. You don't guide the blade or interfere with its motion at all. Perfect form takes care of that. When the sword is at eye level you put the right foot forward and dip. You straighten your legs the end of the cut you pull your shoulders back. This allows you to engage your back muscles for more power.

It's like a ball rolling down hill. It's easier to make fine adjustments when the ball is rolling than when it is at rest. If you notice you use your lats, the powerful muscles in your back to lift the sword (ball) from waist to to eye level. You can't make fine movements with your lats. Until this point it's almost impossible to use forearms and wrists and you don't care about accuracy .When the sword is at eye level you can now use your triceps forearms and wrist to slightly move sword (Newton's inertia). The turn allows the sword to move in its own natural arc so it doesn't lose power. At the end of the cut the coup de grace is the fingers and wrist only. My buddy James Williams can cut the top off an egg.

In other words good swordsmen (like good shooters?) become "one with the sword" meaning perfect form. Then they help the sword cut they don't cut themselves.

The Samurai have known this for 800 years

Make sense? It's all physics and kinesiology.

cleepers
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^ Then there's Shawn Marion.

Nobody knows how or why it works, but it does. Bottom line is, one way or another, Blake has to shoot without thinking about shooting.

Agent0
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Well I think Blake's shot without thinking isn't actually good, because his natural shot just isn't good at the moment so that probably won't solve his problem.

Marion has some issues that make him incapable of shooting off the dribble, but he has a lot of things that make his shot good:

Marion slightly turns his feet to square his shooting hip and shoulder to the basket, he has a one motion shot without a hitch, and he shoots with a sweep and sway where he lands further forward than where he started. Marion's only problem is that his release point makes his shot ineffective against a close defender, but he has a fairly consistent release.

It's actually not as bad a shooting form as one might thing because a lot of components of his shot are good. He shoots like a lot of good shooters until he gets to the release point, which is why when he misses, it is usually short. If he did add the other components, he would actually be a very good shooter, and more capable of off the dribble shooting.

Voyeur
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Sorry I'm late but um...ARE YOU F@CKING KIDDING ME WITH THIS THREAD???!!!

MartyKahn
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LOL, so after 2gms people think DJ is better than Blake.

Yeah, ok

cleepers
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Couple of years ago, he was hitting that Timmy Duncan 12-foot bank shot just fine for my liking. Didn't look like he was thinking too hard about it, either.

Clippersfan86
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Blake's shot is still suspect, I don't even think he attempted a midrange jumper tonight. So not going to take that back because I meant it that I was concerned about it. That being said he was amazing overall in a bounceback game, great job Blake!

Voyeur
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He took one and nailed it last night.

Clippersfan86
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Hmm I don't remember. Either way though I think we all agree that he's become to jumpshot happy anyways so what we saw last night was outstanding. Only take the occasional jumper, go in the paint more as your bread and butter.

Voyeur
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^

Well, that's what I want. Not sure the organization wants it though.

Silasie
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I presume the idea was that if Blake had a money jumper then defenders could not sag at all and then he can beat them with his quick first step. Which of course is a brilliant plan but if it is not working by now it may be better to re-assess.

Clippersfan86
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Pretty much. It's good in theory but until his shot is money... go inside more, just like he did. Had he not fouled out with almost 5 minutes left.. I think Blake finishes with like 27/12/3. People don't realize Blake only played 34 minutes last night and had 23/10/3 or whatever. CP3 only played 37 to drop 42/15/6!

Voyeur
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Here's the rundown of BG's scores. Aside from one jumper and those 3 lobs, his other 5 baskets were pretty strong moves in the paint. He only missed three other shots. But I guess it's better television if TNT talks about one bad play by Blake than the good stuff.

CP3Heliflopter
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Its not only for the sake of Blake but for the sake of other players as well. The Miami vs Spurs series is a great example of this. The Spurs packed the paint when Lebron and Wade were on the floor and sagged off both of them. This killed the Heat offense when Lebron and Wade couldn't make jump shots and make the Spurs pay. When Wade wasn't on the floor the Heat offense thrived because of the Lebron + 4 shooters lineup which made packing the paint ineffective.

We are usually going to have DJ and BG on the floor at the same time so we need one of them to have a decent jump shot and I don't think its a good idea for DJ to be that guy. Besides pretty much all of the all time great PFs had a decent jump shot. Obviously Dirk is money but KG, Duncan, Barkley, Malone had jump shots. Both the post game + jump shot is important for Blake.

Voyeur
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Personally, I think Blake should take those shots a little closer to the basket. Hell, try some runners and jump hooks. Even some turnaround jumpers. We've seen him do ALL those things. So we know he can do it. It's possible he has too many options. Maybe he needs to settle on 1 or 2 patented moves while in certain spots on the floor.

Clippersfan86
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People need to stop being pricks regarding Blake. If you're going to pick apart the flaws, talk about the good too. Pay me 100k a year to give the half ass analysis ESPN and TNT give. The only real crew left who actually knows the game is NBA TV.

tense2
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Yep and a mid-range shot is all that is needed with the post moves to command a double team and moving him towards superstardom.

Voyeur
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I sure hope he has a big game tonight against the Kings. It's a back to back game so you never know.

Clippersfan86
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Blake I pray goes for 30/13 tonight or something. I just want him to shut these fu**ing haters up man! It pisses me off. TNT guys didn't get off Lebron's back until he exploded into a 30 ppg scorer and got his team to the finals. BTW anybody notice how much better the synergy between CP3/Blake is this year? Smoother PNR and better give and go between them.

jarca
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What they say

Clippersfan86
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Just in general Jarca weak analysis. They stereotype teams and beat a deadhorse about things that aren't true. Bruce Bowen on ESPN today said Blake has made ZERO improvements in his career to his skillset. TNT guys keep talking about Blake not getting double teamed which is a boldface lie, he gets a second defender regularly. They say we are a fastbreak Run N Gun team despite being one of the slowest tempo teams the last two years.

CP3Heliflopter
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Most TNT, ESPN analysts don't know more than the casual nba fan. Their analysis is not much better than LOL BG cannot dunk.

People can say I am being disrespectful but its true. Just because you were/are a great player on the court does not make you a good analyst which is why Chuck, Magic, and Shaq are pretty poor analysts.

I don't take any of them seriously. The thing I hate most are insider articles. The articles are generally rubbish and not any better than the regular articles and people expect payment for that crap?!

Clippersfan86
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Agreed. One good crew is NBA TV's crew though. Greg Anthony, Brent Barry and Steve Smith are almost always fair and knowledgeable. They don't attack teams or kiss teams asses the way ESPN/TNT tends to.

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