Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread (P. 7)

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Voyeur
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Jared's got his work cut out for him Wednesday with Carmelo. Hope that knee is feeling good.

clipperboy24
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You are usually all about the advanced stats and extrapolated and diving deeper why not here? Oh yes, because you don't want to see find something that doesn't match your point of view. Gotcha. Always thought so but thanks for making it clear.

tense2
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That's funny coming from you, Mr. Match your Point of View with what ever subjectivelty matches your point of view, LOL.

clipperboy24
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Hey if I am wrong I can admit it. The same can't be said about some others.

Dudley was/is injured which I didn't give enough credence to. He also appears overweight and has spent his whole career out of shape. He is also a chronically bad rebounder which I think is a huge liability.

CP3Heliflopter
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^He isn't out of shape. People have different body types. He was not gifted in terms of athletic genes lets leave it at that lol. As for his rebounding. He is below average for his position but he should be averaging at least twice the boards he has now when he is healthy.

DocHollywood
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This article should end any questions or confusion about Dudley. Bullock is also discussed in regards to his present strengths and weaknesses. Both players are depicted by Doc and the author exactly as I and others have been trying to convey to an outspoken minority here.

Silasie
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Isn't that the treatment Kobe had to go to Germany to get?

Agent0
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I actually know Dudley's pain. If you haven't experienced knee tendinosis that isn't just a little minor one, you might not understand but it is actually very annoying. Problem I always had was that there was no specific pattern to the pain. Some days I had good mobility, others it was hurting at every bend or plant. Made me very inconsistent in what I could do on the court on a day to day basis.

Hopefully he can take time off when Barnes comes back, or this therapy really helps cause it's actually very annoying.

Dudley isn't cut, he's in the Paul pierce / Carmelo mold of body type, so he isn't necessarily out of shape. That is his shape.

clipnasty
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Bullock is playing decent, so when Barnes come back some rest definitely may be in order. Dudley can get in the pool to keep his conditioning but rest the knee.

It would be great if we could get Barnes back by 12/7 as we have a little bit of a soft spot in our schedule (as far as the competition goes at least, as it is a 7 game roadie)

clipperboy24
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It always amazing me how people are paid to play a sport and they can't be very physically fit. Carmelo is a perfect example of a player who has been criticized for his weight and shape and still doesn't get more fit.

The idea of that just his body shape is dumb. It may be more difficult for someone to get in good shape but when you are paid to be fast, quick, strong, use your body to make you more successful at your job then you better be working out eating right etc. Many pro athletes aren't that disciplined and they use the excuse that this is just their body type.

CP3Heliflopter
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Oh man you really don't have any idea what your talking about when it comes to the human body cause you are making yourself sound PRETTY ignorant. Dudley is not heavy for a small forward. He is 225 lbs. He is lighter than guys like Kawhi Leonard who is the same height and seems to have a skinnier physique. It has everything to do with body type and genes. You think Dudley is a slacker when it comes to getting in shape based on what? He has a healthy and meticulous diet and works hard on fitness.

As for Melo he definitely puts a lot of work in the gym and anyone who says otherwise is talking nonsense. The extra weight helps him more than it hurts him. It allows him to play bully ball.

Agent0
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Fitness is measured more by ability to avoid fatigue early and how long you can stay on the court than whether you are cut or ripped. Being cut or ripped is more about diet and natural body type than it is about how your cardio fitness or how much cardio / lifting you do.

So unless a guy is just overweight, or the team specifically says he's out of shape, not being cut isn't indicative of your shape. In contrast, you can be skinny and cut and be in bad cardiovascular shape.

tense2
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Stop making sense (ah The Talking Heads) will ya Agent and CP3Heliflopter. Just stop it...Damn. wink

clipperboy24
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Sorry but what you just posted is not even remotely close to reality.

clipnasty
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Clipperboy24 and Agent0 need to have a fitness battle to see which one of them is more "fit." It can be some sort of decathlon-type event with different athletic events, like running, jumping, squats, etc.

clipperboy24
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Haha micro fracture and all I am game lol

CP3Heliflopter
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clipperboy24 wrote:
Sorry but what you just posted is not even remotely close to reality.

Care to clarify your post? I assure you any credible dietitian, physiologist, physical trainer or sports doctor would vehemently disagree with you. What Agent0 said was pretty much spot on especially this part.

Quote:
Being cut or ripped is more about diet and natural body type than it is about how your cardio fitness or how much cardio / lifting you do.

So unless a guy is just overweight, or the team specifically says he's out of shape, not being cut isn't indicative of your shape. In contrast, you can be skinny and cut and be in bad cardiovascular shape.

clipperboy24
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Can you actually quote anyone who would agree with what you are saying? Are you really going to say someone who has a low body fat content is that way solely because of their body type? It could be because of their body type but usually it's way more than that. A fat person or someone trying to defend a fat person usually says excuses like that. It's almost always a combo of diet and rigorous exercise both of which promote strength, endurance, cardio vascular health and overall excellent physical fitness.

For some its just more work than others. That is where J Dud is IMO, and he isn't willng to do what is required to get to the next level as a player

DocHollywood
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People with low/high body fat are often that way because of their genetic body type. I'm not going to bother quoting any doctors or scientists but instead will advise you to just Google "Genetics and Obesity." Thousands of university medical school based studies for you to sift through. "Seven New Genetic Causes of Obesity Identified" looked like a good place to start. Ever heard of ectomorphs, mesomorphs, and endomorphs? I have an overweight friend (endomorph) who eats extremely well and exercises a few days per week religiously. Another friend is rail thin (ectomorph) but eats like a teenage pothead and rarely exercises at all (he's 32 btw). Dudley is a person who without the exercise and diet he has would be very overweight. He works hard to maintain his body as it is.

From Ryan Weisert, a writer for Valley of the Suns .com: "Jared has long been respected around the league for his dedication, work ethic, and persona."

tense2
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And the key word in that assessment is IMO which has no evidence to back that theory up, sorta like when you didn't believe he was dealing with an injury...again subjective. Wink

Agent0
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clipperboy24 wrote:
Sorry but what you just posted is not even remotely close to reality.

http://crossfitchronicle.blogspot.com/2 ... y-fit.html

Quote:
There's a common misconception that a person who looks huge and ripped must be in great shape. This is not always the case; guys who hit the treadmill for five minutes a day, blast their pecs on Tuesdays and work their legs on Thursdays are almost certainly not physically fit. These are often the same guys who, when doing a CrossFit WOD for the first time, are confronted with the shocking reality that they're not even close to being fit..

I'm not really sure I understand your response.

Being skinny =/= being in good shape or having good cardio health. It's why in health care professions, we tell people that just because you are skinny doesn't mean you can't be diabetic or have high blood pressure and therefore don't really need to exercise. Similarly with cholesterol, though there is a genetic component to that where your body just doesn't bind cholesterol well.

You need to distinguish between a "fat" person, eg: Oliver Miller and someone who isn't skinny. It isn't that you are either skinny / athletic or ripped or fat. There's a wide range in there. There are people who are medium sized and not ripped, but their actual cardiovascular health is very good.

Voyeur
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Jared's face is kinda fat.

Sorry, I just thought I'd contribute.

DocHollywood
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Good point Voyeur. He needs to step up his training regimen and start doing those DWade jaw exercises lol

CP3Heliflopter
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It is. lol

Voyeur
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I mean, It's not Zach Randolph level face-fat but still...he should work on that!

cleepers
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My arse doesn't even have as much fat as Randolph's face.

Voyeur
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I'm amazed he found a headband that size. Very Happy

Agent0
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Randolph is another good example. He's definitely not ripped, not close, but he isn't out of shape. Kevin Love before he became skinny Kevin Love also, Marc Gasol too, but those guys are all in better shape than Andre Miller and skinny Lamar Odom at the start of training camp.

Dudley does have a big head though, lol

Those guys probably couldn't last 20 minutes in an NBA game Wink

clipperboy24
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Sorry you still aren't making any sense. There is a difference between being "massive and ripped" and having a low body fat % and bent in good shape. Kevin love is a better player since he lost weight, I bet you would have said that was just his body type and he is much better on defense and running the court.

You act like J Dud is recording great health stats and is very quick and at peak performance. He just isn't and that's how a lot of pro athletes who aren't stars are and unfortunately a few that could be better.

Also are you really trying to just get cardiovascular or overall performance. I believe the two are hand in hand. Also you are very misinformed that a person with diabetes or high blood pressure would be instructed to not work out. They would be instructed to restrict their diet most likely but not limit exercise. Seriously it's very surprising how Much misinformation regarding fitness is being posted.

No surprise America is so obese when this is the mentality.

Agent0
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I think you kinda failed on reading comprehension there if you think i was saying that someone with diabetes or high blood pressure shouldn't work out, lol

Read that again, and I'm neither American or have any weight problems, lol

What threshold of low body fat are you using here? I don't think Dudley has body fat >19%, do you?

Cardio vs overall, you tell me? Are you trying to look good, or be in acceptable shape for your sport? Do they go hand in hand? What body fat% means good shape? How do you know what Dudley's body fat% is? What are the objective signs that Dudley is out of shape?

I act like Dudley is recording great health stats? What in the world? Based on what exactly? All I've said is that he can be in good shape without looking like he's a gym rat. I have no clue about his health stats and I never mentioned them. I said, if neither him or the team is saying anything and if he isn't struggling with stamina on the court, how am I going to claim that he is out of shape? Just because I think so with the evidence of "I said so"?

I wouldn't say loosing weight didn't help Love, it did, but it didn't mean he wasn't in acceptable shape before he lost weight. There's also a difference between being in good shape and being in optimal shape. You can be in good enough shape to perform your sport, but that doesn't mean there isn't a next level. Running the court and defending better are so subjective, honestly I could just say that without it being true. I haven't really seen him going anything better in running the court, but I've seen him gain a bit of explosiveness. His defense is better because he's actually defending, not just trying to get rebounds.

I don't really know what point you want to make in the end.

CP3Heliflopter
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^Nothing. He just danced in circles without ever saying anything really.

clipperboy24
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No circles, it just seems circular to you guys because it doesn't match what you are saying. Dudley could be in better shape which would lead to higher strength, quickness, potentially higher leaping ability endurance etc. it's not about being able to perform, it's performing at your best. Dudley looks like he did his rookie year when he admitted he had diet regulation problems and needed to lose weight. He performed better when he did that. I am saying he could afford to lose more weight and most likely would perform better. It's not rocket science, especially for a sport like basketball which involve so much running and effort.

But it doesn't matter because it will fall on deaf ears, who apparently think having a body fat % under 19 is all that accounts for being in shape. For an average person yes, the standard is much lower. For an athlete? You are paid to be at your physical best. Why anyone would want to defend otherwise is beyond me.

clipper*joe
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Agent0 wrote:
Fitness is measured more by ability to avoid fatigue early and how long you can stay on the court than whether you are cut or ripped. Being cut or ripped is more about diet and natural body type than it is about how your cardio fitness or how much cardio / lifting you do.

Very true but being physically fit ( CB24's context) is just as important. Most players need to get physically fit (drop weight-build stamina-get in game shape) before opening day. Very few players aside from the top stars come into camp "fit" ( your context). In other words, I'm saying your definition and CB24's definition of fit aren't mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. In most cases, when you're slow, out of shape, it has more to do with not getting in the "right shape" to play the sport.

Quote:
So unless a guy is just overweight, or the team specifically says he's out of shape, not being cut isn't indicative of your shape. In contrast, you can be skinny and cut and be in bad cardiovascular shape.

Being skinny, cut, and in bad cardiovascular is a rarity in the sport of BBall.

clipper*joe
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I don't believe CB24 ever said Dudley is heavy. I like CB24, believe he looks out of shape compared to other years he's played. Does that mean I think he's out of shpae to play Bball? No. Does that mean I think his game would improve if he got slimmer and looked a little more stout, instead of looking soft in the middle? Yes.

Since you compared Leonard to Dudley...Do you think they measure up when it comes to playing ball? Who of the two can run the floor faster? Stay in for longer periods of time? Play both sides of the court better?

While they might weigh the same, the slender, more physically fit looking player just looks and plays better on the court regardless of the weight similarity.

clipper*joe
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Genetic body type plays a part on some people but, IMO, most people don't fit that mold. I'm a endomorph and have had weight problems for the first 16 years of my life. I often jumped weight most of my 20's but at age 27, I committed my life to good nutrition and exercise. When I hit 30, I started using supplements and heavy weights. I turned from a 200lbs, size 38 waist into a 210 lbs size 34 waist, 8 % body fat Adonis. lol

Serious though, that is a true story. I had my own doctor tell me for my age, I had a body a teen would die for. My point is that anyone can make changes even with obstacles (body types). Oh, and no, I never used steroids. I used glutamine and creatine only. I also ate 6-7 small meals a day in 2-3 hour intervals.

clipper*joe
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You are aware that knee tendinitis can be a result of the weight you carry, right? Not saying Dudley is overweight but lack of condition, stretching, and being out of shape are causes for tendinitis. So what CB24 believes isn't that far-fetched. Also, I think CB24 posted a video where they interview Dudley after losing weight. So it was pretty evident that at one time, weight was an issue for him. Just saying.

pageC4
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In CB24's defense though Dudley denied injury for quite some time. Dudleys reasons for not stating publicly that he was injured early on are his own, but it was easy for people to assume he wasn't injured. Hell, I asked the guy directly and he burshed off the knee and said "it's fine." The tone Dudley gave me was very terse at the time, and you could tell he was deflecting. Now we see that wasn't the case and he has been battling tendonitis. Still, from the onset there were many theories thrown around as to why Dudley wasn't performing well, which ranged from Chemistry, to not getting the ball enough..etc. So its easy to have doubted an injury especially since Doc didn't exactly pull his minutes early on like he should have.

jarca
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Repped High Quality Post

It's harder to measure value in basketball than let's say baseball.

Would it be fair to trade LBJ for 2 players that statistically give the same value per 36 or advance stats? I don't think any one would do that.

Let's look at the Dudley and Afflalo comparison. Afflalo last year was the go to guy and the focal point of the other team's defense. Being the "guy" comes with the responsibility of throwing up shot when the clock is wining down. Of course that would lower ones percentage and efficiency. Also, afflalo guards the best player on opposing team. So that could impact his efficiency on the defensive end. Would you trade Afflalo for Dudley and Casspi? Same money and almost equal production. Me, personally I wouldn't. In Afflalo, I got a guy who can score off the dribble, post up, slash, and defend. Dudley cannot score on his own, zero post up move, and a snail on defense. Also Dudley played in a inflated stat system in Phoenix.

Now let's look at Deng. How do you measure "value" for someone who lead the league in minutes, can defend, rebound, slash, and score one on one. Would you trade Redick, Dudley, and a throw away for Deng. Even with the penny pinching bulls, I don't even think they'll do that.

jarca
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You beat me to it!

jarca
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Also when comparing Deng to other players, Deng actually play over 36 minutes while the money ball folks use theoretical number like per 36. I would love for Dudley to average 36 minutes a year and see how effective he is!

DocHollywood
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Dudley was a very overweight teenager. He talks about it openly. He worked his ass off to get as lean as he has been throughout his professional career. Like I pointed out, he is admired around the league for his work ethic and discipline- he has to work much harder than many of the more 'fit' looking players around the league thanks to his genetics.

tense2
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The injury discussion was being talked about on this thread since the 9th of this month. So it's been known for a while.

tense2
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Yeah, the same "money ball folks" were using that theoretical number for DJ and how has that turn out so far.

jarca
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So what? Then work harder.

Voyeur
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I feel bad that we're talking about Jared's weight right before the eatin' holidays! It's not fair, really.

pageC4
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it was discussed true, but it was not confirmed by Dudley himself until much more recently. There was much talk about it and Dudley kept brushing it off. There were even some members here who suggested that his injury was not serious, that it was one of those things you could play through and rest wasn't needed. CTB is a forum where you hear a million different things everyday. Until that LA Times article came out where Dudley talks about it himself then it became a real issue, prior to that who could discern the truth. So CB24 had a point in not buying the injury so soon.

jarca
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I don't need money ball to judge DJ. Last year he was trying to get rebound against two people while BG leaks out. I've always blamed VDN for his short coming.

tense2
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That LA Times article came out on Nov 10th. See this thread (page 2).

DocHollywood
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How many dozens of other NBA players have an obviously higher body fat percentage than Dudley? I just cannot believe some people are so caught up in this guys weight. He looks barely winded going into timeouts indicating his cardio is probably fine but his knee is clearly not.

tense2
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Good for you...you da man. Razz

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