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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jamal Crawford is the Problem,or Rather, How He Post ID: 413119by Voyeur » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:10 PM PST
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Hey Dudley had some TIMELY baskets tonight. I ain't complaining.



                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 413120by chonkyfire24 » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:11 PM PST
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I've watched him every time the clippers played the suns, he was nothing to write home about.

Keep making excuses, it's fine with me. I'm the one being objective here, sorry. If he had a high ankle sprain, that's one thing, but tendinitis should be more than manageable.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post Subject: RE: Jamal Crawford is the Problem,or Rather, How He Post ID: 413121by chonkyfire24 » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:12 PM PST
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That's my point. He's still playing because tendinitis is a minor injury, it's not an excuse.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 413122by tense2 » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:15 PM PST
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And what about the times when they weren't playing the Clippers, like the other 78 or so games. And you're being objective, lol.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 413124by chonkyfire24 » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:19 PM PST
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oh i didn't realize you watched all 82 suns games last season. My mistake.

well at least his tendinitis excuses his poor defensive play. It's too bad he doesn't have access to a staff of trainers and state of the art facilities to rehab things like that, oh wait. never mind he does.

                
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DocHollywood
Post Subject: RE: Jamal Crawford is the Problem,or Rather, How He Post ID: 413126by DocHollywood » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:24 PM PST
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ChonkeyFire, are you high like Bob Marley right now? LOL

                
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tense2
Post ID: 413131by tense2 » Nov 09, 2013 - 11:31 PM PST
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Oh well, your mind set is what it is. It's tough trying to convince a guy who:

  1. Believes Dudley wasn't an upgrade from Butler, which I clearly showed with the links I referenced that he was....you did look at those didn't ya?
  2. Thought Afflalo would have been better, which again I clearly showed that wasn't necessary so, particularly for the $.

Sometimes, most often actually, it's tough to break though to someone who's living in a bubble.

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413135by DocHollywood » Nov 10, 2013 - 12:03 AM PST
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You must have missed my comment earlier where I told you how that was FALSE. Lebron got past Dudley ONCE and made one three while Jared was guarding him. FIVE POINTS for King James. He scored more then that in 2 minutes against Willie Green. Think what you want, and I'm sure you will, but you're living in in a fictitious reality. Go to espn and check the play-by-play log for the game instead of daring to try arguing about this.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 413179by Agent0 » Nov 10, 2013 - 12:07 PM PST
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What does Paul George have to do with anything?

Suns starters for most of the season: Groan Dragic P.J. Tucker Jared Dudley Luis Scola Marcin Gortat

Defensive rating and RAPM are both based on the opposing team performance, not on your individual matchup. So if the fictional Paul George on Phoenix was guarding Lebron, but Dudley was always on the court at those same times, it would have the same effect on his rating as if he was guarding Lebron himself. That is besides the point as Dudley was the primary SF on Phoenix and guarded Lebron, Durant, etc.

We can't watch all the games of every player that's why we have statistics because our sample sizes are not sufficient to make conclusions about everyone. We could watch a guys best or worst game and if we make conclusions based on that, it obviously isn't representative.

If a Knicks fan took this sample he would be a star:

Link

From December 9 to December 29, 10 games he averaged 18.4 pts, 5.0 rebs, 4.2 assists, 53% FG, 35% 3PT, so what would your perception be if you watched Dudley through that span?


Why did Dudley become a main topic even, what did he do? I actually forgot how this started.

I also thought I was the only one that was wondering where the

Blake guarded Lebron because Blake physically is basically the same profile as Lebron, it makes sense actually, and I've said it before to friends that Blake is more similar to Lebron than to normal PF, he's undersized.

Not sure how that means Dudley is a below average defender. Doc has said he wanted to do this even before the season started, probably because he saw how a bigger forward like Jeff Green can be a pretty decent matchup guarding Lebron.


Dudley had 15, 3, 19, 8 if we are just talking scoring vs the Clippers. 8 pts was in 18 minutes in a blowout. Not really bad production, basically had one bad game with the 3 pts in 25 minutes where he shot 1/5

Overall: 11.3 pts /2.5 rebs / 2.5 assists / 51.9% FG/ 50% 3PT in 25.9 mpg

Guess the expectations for role players must have gotten much higher

                
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tense2
Post Subject: RE: Jamal Crawford is the Problem,or Rather, How He Post ID: 413194by tense2 » Nov 10, 2013 - 02:26 PM PST
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One last thing on Dudley's injury for good measure. He's apparently had this problem (knee bruised or tendinitis??) since August, but has continue to try and work though it due to the injuries in the preseason/season. Knee is about 70%. Tough to be at the top of your game on both ends of the court in that situation. http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clippers-fyi-20131110,0,310321.sto ry#axzz2kHAOMjyy

                
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david
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413197by david » Nov 10, 2013 - 02:41 PM PST
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Split out these posts from the Jamal Crawford topic thread into a new Jared Dudley thread.

                
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tense2
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413198by tense2 » Nov 10, 2013 - 02:44 PM PST
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Thanks David.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413199by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:05 PM PST
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If only Dudley had the winning #s to prove everything you are saying. Problem is he doesn't and as you admitted he is out of shape which to me is disturbing for any player and shows a lack of commitment and displays laziness. He is very slow on defense and is a terrible rebounder. Both of those are strong negatives.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 413200by tense2 » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:09 PM PST
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If you look at the all the numbers, you'll see he does. And I never said he was out of shape, because that's his "shape", lol.

                
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ClipperB23
Post ID: 413201by ClipperB23 » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:13 PM PST
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Exactly! His 'shape' is kind of like Paul Pierce, now an out of shape player would be Oliver Miller, Boris Diaw, Raymond Felton, etc. Dudley is going to be great for us, give him some time people!

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413202by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:25 PM PST
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He has been in the league 7 years and hasn't provided anything close to Paul Pierce #s I would understand the love so many have for him. Being that he is a fringe starter and not somebody who has little to prove he should be in incredible shape, doing anything he can to be a top notch player. Watching him play feels like I am watching the game in slow mo.

                
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ClipperB23
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413205by ClipperB23 » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:31 PM PST
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I never compared his #'s to Paul Pierce, read my post again.

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413208by DocHollywood » Nov 10, 2013 - 03:46 PM PST
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Dudley's defense both under normal circumstances and right now while injured are well understood. You think it's horrible while the rest of us know otherwise. Regarding his rebounding, Caron grabbed boards for us at almost exactly the same rate, only he's a much worse shooter who costs twice as much. Dudley was top five in fg% amongst small forwards last season and he's awesome for what we're paying. That's a key point you should bare in mind. If you think it's wise for us to try trading Dudley plus other pieces for an upgrade at the SF, that's fair, but who is it you'd replace him with in what sort of trade?

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413213by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 05:07 PM PST
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I know that is the problem. If he provided anything like that you could say oh he is out of shape but produces good #s. he doesn't produce good numbers though so there is no excuse for him to be out of shape.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413214by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 05:14 PM PST
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Haha that's hilarious saying he rebounded at the same rate would be akin to saying someone who replaced deandre Jordan shot ft's as well so it's no big deal. The point isn't to have the same level of non production, you want positive production. Great fg% was low, did he always guard the sf? How much did their team defense help? Too many questions to ask to only use one stat.

The proof is in the pudding, sf is once again our biggest weakness.

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413215by DocHollywood » Nov 10, 2013 - 05:40 PM PST
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I clearly said Dudley was top five in fg%, meaning he scores and shoots very efficiently lol. THE "POINT" IS THAT HE'S A CLEAR UPGRADE FOR HALF THE PRICE. For some mysterious pathological reason, you don't seem to appreciate that. Since when is rebounding at the 3 a huge concern for any team, especially when elite perimeter shooting is exactly what we needed? My question stands: who would you package Dudley with to acquire a substantially better SF?

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413216by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 05:44 PM PST
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I also have been very clear, I think the answer lies in playing bullock more minutes and developing him and also Dudley getting in better shape and learning to rebound.

Rebounding is a must have and we need that better rebounding production. There is a reason they drafted bullock: he gives us both of our needs rebounding and outside shooting.

                
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DocHollywood
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413217by DocHollywood » Nov 10, 2013 - 06:02 PM PST
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Since when is rebounding at the SF such a major factor in any teams roster building lol? We're outrebounding our opponents as it is already man. Bullock plays like a 26th pick in a weak draft as he clearly demonstrated yesterday and throughout the preseason (-18 in 9 minutes with zero points last night). If Bullock is your only alternative to Dudley your whole argument is laughable.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413218by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 06:13 PM PST
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Sorry in that post above I thought you were talking about defensive fg% my bad. I like Dudley's shooting and was very excited when we signed him. What I had thought we were getting more of was defense and playmaking but he really is not great in those departments and has lived up to his horrible reputation as a rebounder.

I think you combine that with having another sf in reggie bullock who provides many of the same characteristics in the positive but actually rebounds, is young and has upside I would like to see him get minutes.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413219by clipperboy24 » Nov 10, 2013 - 06:25 PM PST
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Lets just see what the season holds. Like many stat lovers on the board say you can't just judge one game so -18 in one game shouldn't mean anything but here is the crazy part he outrebounded Dudley 3 to 2 when Dudley played 3x the amount of minutes.

Rebounding is important especially when you have a lot of jump shooting happening and when you defense allows a lot of 3 pt shot attempts and when the sg and pg are not that great of rebounders.

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413220by DocHollywood » Nov 10, 2013 - 06:29 PM PST
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His D and his rebounding will improve with his right knee (read the LA Times link above if you haven't already). His passing and playmaking will come with more time gelling with the other starters- he's made some great plays, but sometimes the timing and communication haven't yet been there. That was one of my favorite parts of his game in Phoenix was his creative passing and playmaking.

Reggie should get minutes to help him develop, but it's tricky putting him in right now. His abilities and especially his BBIQ are nowhere remotely close to Dudley's at this stage. The bench sucks so bad that Reggie is just going to struggle out there. He's just plain not ready to play with the starters against premiere wings. Once we shore up the bench I think Reggie will get more opportunities since we won't be blowing huge leads.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413224by CP3Heliflopter » Nov 10, 2013 - 08:19 PM PST
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http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clippers-fyi-20131110,0,310321.sto ry

                
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tense2
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413225by tense2 » Nov 10, 2013 - 08:25 PM PST
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^Don't think some poster's read that when I posted it. Maybe this time will be better. Very Happy

                
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pageC4
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413227by pageC4 » Nov 10, 2013 - 09:07 PM PST
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Dudley needs to sit out ASAP. I would rather Green and Bullock get some time at SF until Barnes and Dudley are fully healthy. A player playing injured is a bad thing.

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 413230by CP3Heliflopter » Nov 10, 2013 - 09:15 PM PST
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Barnes isn't healthy either. Bullock didn't really poorly in the minutes he got. If we blow a team out he can rest. We don't have a choice but to play him for now.

                
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Kingkanyon
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413244by Kingkanyon » Nov 10, 2013 - 11:57 PM PST
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"Hi", I'm a new user here, I've been reading things from here for about 4 months and I like what you guy's have been saying (minus a few things) so I decided to join.

So here goes.

I know Dudley hasn't played great thus far, well he's had 3 bad games already, but I think he'll get it together. Plus I don't think bullock is ready for any real minutes yet and I love Willie, but if he's playing at SF, then we will really be in trouble, that's what hurt us in Miami, He could maybe survive on Monday vs Corey Brewer, but he and Reggie has no shot against KD, unless KD lets them of the Hook by Shooting J's, but I don't see that happening. With Barnes out, we don't have any other viable options.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413246by clipperboy24 » Nov 11, 2013 - 12:12 AM PST
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He really didn't play bad on defense. Rematch the game and see who's guys scored. Crawford got torched bad and bullock was playing the 4. For all the attention you say you give the game I would have thought it easy to notice it was a bad lineup and situation he was thrown in.

He will prove the naysayers wrong, no doubt.

                
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david
Post ID: 413249by david » Nov 11, 2013 - 12:44 AM PST
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Welcome to Clippers Topbuzz, Kingkanyon- looking forward to seeing more of your posts!

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413250by DocHollywood » Nov 11, 2013 - 12:46 AM PST
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Welcome! I agree with everything you said, so I hope you stick around lol. Wednesday against OKC is not going to be easy without a healthy Barnes or Dudley, that's for sure. Maybe KD will eat some bad seafood the night before....

                
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CP3Heliflopter
Post ID: 413251by CP3Heliflopter » Nov 11, 2013 - 12:59 AM PST
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I never said he was bad on D just that he played poorly overall. He still lacks experience and shouldn't be playing heavy minutes. He was decent on D but missed some easy looks. I expect him to be a decent role player in time but I wouldn't throw him out there and make him play heavy minutes so soon.

                
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toohipcliptoslip
Post ID: 413254by toohipcliptoslip » Nov 11, 2013 - 01:10 AM PST
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You guys have never had tendonitis. It can be as painful as a broken bone but if it's not treated with rest it doesn't get better or can get worse. There are some types of tendonitis that are treated by splinting just like a broken bone. If it's caused by repetitive injury you have to change your body mechanics to avoid getting it again. Tennis elbow comes to mind

A broken bone requires a cast and a few weeks. He's better off playing with that than a bad flare up of tendonitis

                
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slestack11
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413255by slestack11 » Nov 11, 2013 - 01:31 AM PST
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I'd like to see a potential Jamal Crawford for Danny Granger trade later this year (pending Granger health) and having Dudley and/or Barnes fill in as a backup swingman to cover J-Crossover reserve role. With Granger, it will shore up our starting five going into the playoffs.

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413260by DocHollywood » Nov 11, 2013 - 03:06 AM PST
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Granger is a $14 million dollar injury prone liability. Crawford is our $5 million dollar sixth man of the year. Not gonna happen. Clippers need to get a nice 4/5 3rd big if Crawford is traded, not a SF. I know Granger's contract expires but I still don't want him. His famous left knee is bothering him again as of today.

                
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Kingkanyon
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413261by Kingkanyon » Nov 11, 2013 - 04:53 AM PST
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I feel you on that one.

I like Granger, but he's a volume shooter, not to mention Jamal Craford has been super efficient this year. I would never trade the guy, he plays hard enough on D for me, plus I feel he save's us allot of night's. it's highly unrealistic that a trade like that would even go down, the Pacer's lack a PG, not a SG, they're pretty stacked when it comes to those position's.

But knee Tendinitis's never sounds good..... still wouldn't trade for a SF. If it's that bad, and Barns can't play, I'd just Start Bullock or Crawford and let them two split time, Defensive wise I think Bullock could do fine their, Plus it'll be good for him to get more time on the court.

Even with bad knees though, Dudley is still shooting 48% from the Field, and 41% from the 3. That's a great percentage.

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 413262by Silasie » Nov 11, 2013 - 06:34 AM PST
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But then we'd have nothing off the bench. You have to have some offense off the bench.

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 413264by pageC4 » Nov 11, 2013 - 08:49 AM PST
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we do have a choice actually. at 4-3 we aren't exactly creme de la creme at this point in the west. Dudley isn't exactly all that effective and by continuing to play him while he is injured we run the risk of losing him for the year. also if you read my post I also said the same about Barnes. a few games without Dudley in the lineup is better than the risk of losing him for longer. He needs rest.

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 413269by Silasie » Nov 11, 2013 - 09:47 AM PST
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Can Jamison play SF?

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413275by clipperboy24 » Nov 11, 2013 - 10:08 AM PST
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Every player misses some easy looks. That's the thing that perplexes me. Everyone is saying oh give Dudley time, give Dudley time but bullock doesn't deserve the same leniency, it makes no sense. He missed a few open shots. Lillard went 1-15 the other night it happens. If its a consistent trend that's a problem. You guys won't even give him a chance even though he has shown good defensive, spacing and rebounding skills. But if anyone criticizes Dudley they are so blind.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 413276by tense2 » Nov 11, 2013 - 10:08 AM PST
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He can. His first 7 out of 8 years in the league were at the SF spot.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 413282by tense2 » Nov 11, 2013 - 10:25 AM PST
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Don't think Doc really cares what "us guys" think about giving Bullock even a chance. Doc's history of playing rookies or not is quite clear, so I'm sure his reasons are much more though out then "ours". wink

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 413283by Silasie » Nov 11, 2013 - 10:28 AM PST
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Well if Barnes and Dudley both need some proper recovery time then surely we should utilise Jamison!

                
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Icecoldclipper
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 413290by Icecoldclipper » Nov 11, 2013 - 11:15 AM PST
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Dudley has to become more confident in his game and cut down the sloppy turnovers. His defensive awareness on rotations can improve as well not terrible but can do better. If the knee needs rest best to get it done after this home stand.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 413294by clipperboy24 » Nov 11, 2013 - 11:37 AM PST
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Hey you never know Wink. He played bullock after all my posting Smile

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 413295by Silasie » Nov 11, 2013 - 11:40 AM PST
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LOL..............I am sure he is checking up on this forum all the time to get some advise Wink

                
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DocHollywood
Post ID: 413296by DocHollywood » Nov 11, 2013 - 11:45 AM PST
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Bullock is a rookie who has done nothing but clank open shots and grab a few boards from preseason up until now. Dudley is a very high BBIQ veteran who has been hitting his shots as expected. BIG DIFFERENCE.

                
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