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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420792by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:32 PM PST
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says the guy with a redick avatar...

redick has played well this year. I will acknowledge that, however I think bledsoe had a much higher ceiling, and I think doc could have helped bledsoe reach his full potential.



                
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itsLuigi
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420793by itsLuigi » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:43 PM PST
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yeah, i don't get why we had to trade bledsoe? we could have just signed a free agent like mayo or affalo instead of trading for reddick

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420794by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:47 PM PST
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The guy with 81 posts doesn't realize I usually have Credence Clearwater Revival on my avatar and have added Redick as a get well soon tribute until he's back in the lineup.

Bledsoe is a powerful defensive point guard with lots of ceiling and potential. But unless you're thinking about him as a replacement for Paul, what good is that potential on our team. We needed outside shooting. We needed ball movement. We needed to get out of our predictable half court offense we were stuck in last year. Yes we needed defense too, but JJ offers that too. At least more of that than Chauncey or Willie provided. How do people not get that role players are necessary for a winning team?

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420795by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:49 PM PST
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You love Mayo, don't you?

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 420798by pageC4 » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:09 PM PST
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Great post. Bledsoe was a great player with many attributes, but he did not provide the same level of three point shooting that Redick brings. When Doc had his press conference with the Clippers he stated that shooting was his main need. Redick provided that

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420800by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:28 PM PST
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i don't deny it at all, and bledsoe could have been one of the most talented "role players" in the league for the clippers.

Look, I like redick. He's a nice player with a lot of grit. I'm just not so sure dudley/redick was equal value to eric bledsoe.

Everybody needs outside shooting, but you're only looking at half of the game. Defense wins championships and dudley is not a good defender. Redick is pretty smart on defense though and isn't afraid of contact. Bledsoe on the other hand has become a fantastic defender and that's what the clippers are going to need in the playoffs.

I'm just of the opinion that bledsoe could have been the fourth piece to build this team around. Griffin/jordan/paul/bledsoe. That was the ideal nucleus IMO. It's water under the bridge now though and we'll see what happens. The season is young and maybe they'll figure it out on the defensive end of the floor. Ultimately it's going to come down to the blake griffin and deandre jordan. This team is only going to go as far as those two players take it.

Of course, what I really wish the clippers had done was trade bledsoe to get a higher draft pick. I wanted Giannis on this team so badly. The bucks literally stole him. He should have been a top 5 pick IMO

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 420801by Silasie » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:34 PM PST
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LOL ........Voyeur, I don't if you realized but the 2 guys who have posted above your comment both have 81 posts..............so which one are you talking to? When you read them it becomes clear it's not Luigi but at first I thought it was. Weird coincidence hey!

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420803by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:36 PM PST
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81 was a great year!

                
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Silasie
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420804by Silasie » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:36 PM PST
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Damn, chonkyfire has gone and ruined it by posting again, now he has 82........................so maybe it was Luigi you were talking to Wink

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420806by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:45 PM PST
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Look, we all loved Bledsoe. I would watch that guy steal, rebound and block shots and salivate at what he could bring to ANY team. But he was like fitting a really awesome square peg into a round hole. Other teams have a perfectly compatible empty square shaped space just sitting there but we don't want to give up that square peg. It just so happens a player like JJ is that round peg that fits a little better than Bledsoe. Maybe there were other round pegs that are shinier or fancier than JJ...maybe not...but nonetheless we got that round peg we needed.

I can't defend Dudley however. That guy has not paid dividends as yet.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420808by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:07 PM PST
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I understand what your saying, i'm just not so sure that bledsoe didn't fit. I kind of think he did, but i guess that's where we disagree.

We can agree that redick is a very good basketball player. He's physically limited but he's smart and makes up for that way.

We can also agree that dudley has been... a dud. I wonder if there's any way the clippers could trade dudley and bullock for brandon bass. I wonder if it's possible to play DJ, bass and blake all at the same time. It's an intriguing idea to me, but they would be down a 3 pt shooter. I wonder if it would be an elite defensive line up though.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420809by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:11 PM PST
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While I agree with both, and that we have to remember that moves we made to fit what the coach wanted to do, I want to add this:

Bledose could have similar impact to Redick, but in a different manner, disrupting offenses, attacking the basket and causing the opposition more fouls, creating more baskets. You can impact just as much, though in a different way. BUT, 1) he would have to play as many minutes as Redick to do that and 2) the roster would need some adjustment.

If Bledsoe was going to be playing 17-20 MPG, he could impact the game a little more when ON the floor, but if Redick is playing 8 more MPG or so he's impacting the game more overall because he's on the court more.

You can't impact games from the bench for the most part and certainly not Bledsoe. So we can't just brush that aside. Let's be honest, Caron was not working for the team and we would have traded him for a second round pick to use that money elsewhere.

Also, remember that part of what helps Bledsoe and Dragic work so well in Phoenix?

PF's: Frye: 4.4 3PA / 38.7% 3PT Marc Morris: 3.3 3PA / 43.5%

Not to mention their guards 3PT shooting that is a symbiotic relationship with the lanes opened up by the spacing from the bigs and the ability of the guards to shoot.

There's a whole different spacing ball game that the Suns are doing that the Clippers can't do with Blake and Jordan. The team would have to change to maximize Bledsoe and spacing. You would need either a 3PT shooting, or great long mid-range shooting big man as well as a knockdown SF from the FA market.

Caron Butler for Channing Frye if Phoenix wanted that and then sign Dorell Wright is an example of something that you could have done, but straight up sticking Bledsoe with this roster doesn't maximize his or the teams offensive capabilities.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420810by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:12 PM PST
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Yeah I'll take smart over physical just about any day of the week.

                
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Agent0
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420811by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:17 PM PST
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...and best of all both, but like I said, there's a different spacing ball game when your PF's are hitting 40%+ from 3PT range with 7+ attempts a game.

The Clippers offense changes a bit with that luxury. The lanes seem to open up a bit more, the easy baskets on pick and rolls for the big man seem to come more often. Phoenix doesn't have the 6th ranked offense by mistake, it is by fit.

Of course, that's what Doc thought with Mullens, but you kinda want a guy that actually makes, not just takes shots, and doesn't massively suck at other aspects of basketball. Yes, it was a failed experiment, but the idea makes sense, and he should keep pursing it. That's why the Spurs have Bonner for example.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420812by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:19 PM PST
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I'm gonna be honest. The only way Bledsoe would make the kind of impact you suggest, is if he was 6'7. He plays like a forward. Otherwise, no way he makes the kind of impact JJ does at the SG position.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 420813by tense2 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:21 PM PST
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Well we'll never know for sure since he never got that chance.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420814by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:24 PM PST
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Or if the team had a whole different make up that ran the SG differently on offense. Positions are more arbitrary than we think. If you have a SF that can run around screens and move without the ball, then you can play him like that and use a catch and shoot SG. If you have a big man that can shoot three's well, not just chuck them, then your SG's inability to consistently hit from outside doesn't hurt your offense because that isn't his role anymore.

Why? Well if one of your bigs is outside of the paint and has to be guarded out there, then your SG doesn't need to be able to hit shots to space the floor for him. The big is now the spacer.

I think a lot of times people get too caught up on position names and forget that it is just about getting players that compliment each other.

He plays like a Dwyane Wade or a young Micheal Jordan (style people, style, not ability). SG's don't HAVE to be able to shoot 3's. Most teams have that because you'll find more SG's that can than you will PF's or C's. If you have the latter, then the value of an attacking SG sky rockets even if he can't shoot. Your PF will do the outside shooting for him.

Then he's also starting outside the paint despite is inability to shoot, so with the ball in his hands, the spacing increases for your big man who is in the paint.

There isn't only one way to skin a cat, and not only one way to run an effective NBA offense. Good coaches adjust, but GM's have to help with that adjustment in terms of complimentary players.

I think illogical and made up would be better definitions than rhetorical Wink

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420815by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:28 PM PST
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Doc's offense relies heavily on an off the ball shooter. A guy who forces his man to chase after him at an exhaustive level. I'm not sure who you guys have in mind for doing that, if anyone, but I can guarantee it wasn't Bledsoe.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420816by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:36 PM PST
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Like Avery Bradley? Wink

Doc's offense changed when Allen left. It wasn't effective, but that had more to do with Rondo's bad scoring than lack of a runner.

Offense usually works based on personnel. If there's no Redick, why would a smart coach run that offense? He wouldn't, or the options would be different. Doc is a smart coach. He didn't run that offense before he had Allen or in Orlando, so he doesn't have just one offense. At least I hope not.

Just like the triangle changes it's dynamics with Gasol vs Shaq. Jordan and Pippen vs Kove and Shaq. You can have base sets, but change execution based on personnel.

SA's offense is drastically different now and in the past 3-4 seasons than it was in 2006.

A smart coach could run a high pick and roll spread offense. Maybe bring Bledsoe off the bench as a 6th man along with a solid spread big. Have a spot up shooting 3/D two man and similarly at SF in the starting lineup.

So when Bledsoe is on, he's generally on with Paul, and shooters except for one big. Cement his minutes together with the stretch big.

There's options. I'm content with this one, I'm not saying it is bad, but it isn't good because you couldn't make a good offense with Bledsoe. The issue is that Doc DIDN'T want to run an offense that which highlighted Bledsoe's talents, and maybe it is because didn't believe that he could get the necessary players to run that offense effectively.

Gentry does a lot of the offense. Phoenix didn't have a SG like that, ever. Joe Jonson did spot up and iso, Bell was a spot up 3 and D guy.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 420817by tense2 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:37 PM PST
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Disagree...

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420818by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:40 PM PST
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But it's obvious Doc wanted to run that Allen-style offense for some reason. So if he CAN do so, why wouldn't he? Especially when one of the absolute best at that style became available?

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420821by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:48 PM PST
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Like I said! I'm not saying it is a bad option. Here's the kicker though, if Bledsoe could theoretically in he right system produce a similarly potent offense, but also have high defensive impact, then which might be the better option?

That's they why, but like I said, this is a very good option, and we've seen it when he was healthy, and we know one of the things prioritized was constant motion, and JJ helps that.

Of course, again, there isn't only one way to run a non stagnant offense, EG: Portland. They don't really use a guy running around a ton of screens, but a lot of motion, dribble hand-offs, quick hits.

It is probably something Doc had felt comfort with and wanted to continue. I really don't have an issue with it, in fact, I like it and like Redick, but I don't think it was the only possible viable option that could succeed. Of course I've been clear that I've had issues with some of the overall compliments (Mullens, Hollins, Jamison, Barnes for 3 years at his age, Collison to an extent, but that's a bit cherry picking), but we have to acknowledge that it was bound to be a work in progress from that stand point.

Still, half of the rotation guys have missed a good amount of games, what can really be said conclusively?

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420823by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:56 PM PST
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Portland's nice, but they rely too much on jump shots, in my view. Too many players taking too many jumpers. It's nice now...wait until the shots stop falling.

No doubt in "the right system" Bledsoe will be awe inspiring.

But after Chauncey, I think the Clippers' 2-starting point guard experiment came, mercifully, to an end. I'm thankful we have a legit shooting guard. At least up until the injury...

...dammit.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420824by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:04 PM PST
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if he was 4 inches taller, bledsoe would remind me a bit of dwyane wade. He can't score like wade, but me he would if he was bigger.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420825by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:19 PM PST
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I can't shake this feeling Jared reminds me of one of those fast talking used car salesman. Selling how awesome and reliable a car is, only to find out it's a lemon.

Terrible thing to say because I like the guy, actually. And I know he's become critical of his own self. But still, he has that positive, fast talking persona that made me all enthusiastic about what he was going to bring to the table.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 420826by tense2 » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:30 PM PST
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Don't care how he "talked", he's history showed he "walked" a good game. Hopefully he can walk that way again....soon.

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420827by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:39 PM PST
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I think we're all hoping for that.

                
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tense2
Post ID: 420828by tense2 » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:52 PM PST
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Maybe, but some have made up their minds and want him gone now.

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 420829by clipperboy24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:56 PM PST
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You are kidding right? It was working so well until Chauncey's Achilles exploded. If he didn't have that injury who knows how well we could have done in the 2012 playoffs. Once that injury occurred he was never the same player.

Bledsoe and Paul meshed really well together wish we could have played the two together more. 3 point shooting is nice but so is having dual PGs and especially when both can slash and defend very well.

I am happy with what Redick provides but would have been just as happy with Bledsoe. He and Dragic make a great 2 headed monster that could have easily been bledsoe and Paul.

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 420830by pageC4 » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:22 PM PST
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chonkyfire has to rank up there with cleepers as one of the funniest names

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420831by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:33 PM PST
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I'm not kidding. A healthy Chauncey and Paul were okay but not as good as having a legit SG. Paul and Bledsoe worked well in stretches. It doesn't mean it would have worked permanently. I think Doc realized that.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420832by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:01 PM PST
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Blazers are only 9th in the percentage of their shots that come from 3PT line. Now of course, jumpshots are more than that, but jumpshots are about whether you make them, not whether you take them.

Yes, you need to mix something else in with the jumpshots, slashing, etc, but every teams primary way of scoring is jumpshots. There's nothing wrong with jumpshots if they come out of good sets and if you aren't only looking to shoot jumpers. What's the backup? What other shots do the jumpshots open up?

Chauncey's problem wasn't offense when healthy, Chauncey's problem was that he sucked on defense at SG. Bledsoe doesn't actually have a real disadvantage on defense in comparison to a lot of SG's these days (Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, O.J. Mayo, J.J. Redick, Avery Bradley), some guys I'm forgetting are the same / similar effective basketball size at SG.

J.J. Redick is less athletic and has either the same or a bit lower standing reach than Bledsoe. Actually basketball wise, Redick isn't "taller" than Bledsoe because basketball isn't played with the top of your head.

"A legit SG" is what exactly? To me just a guy that can play basketball. Like I said, the labels get out of hand. A legit SG is whatever SG fits into your team. Now, don't get me wrong, on a team with Blake and DJ, neither guy respected as an outside shooter or a great outside threat, then yes, a SG like Redick is better offensively. Really a lot of teams used to just talk about "guards", not PG and SG. Whoever did whatever better did that role more on offense.

...but that doesn't mean a different type of SG isn't "legit". The names of the position were made for fans to understand the game easier, not because they truly speak about what the position should do.

Teams are about fitting other players around your most effective players.

Now, could a team with Bledsoe at SG work on the Clippers? Yea, but the C can't be DJ because the spacing isn't good enough.

If your C is Marc Gasol, Kevin Garnett (a bit young), Spencer Hawes, or someone like that, then yes. Of course Marc and KG are ideal as they are also high level defenders, but with a Hawes, what is the gain offensively vs loss defensively?

That is probably a bit hard to quantify, so that's where hiccups come up.

"The right system" really is just a team with a big man that is capable of consistently making outside shots and respected from out there. That's the extent of the "right system".

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420833by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:07 PM PST
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I don't think we were excited about Dudley because he talked a good game. The excitement was because he played a good game for multiple years. It's not a fluke if it keeps on happening.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420835by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:26 PM PST
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I think you know what I mean by "legit" SG, Agent0. I mean someone who is not a point guard playing out of position... and ideally one who can shoot. You're starting to get cute here.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420836by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:29 PM PST
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But I'm curious what "less athletic" means. Seems to me a guy who runs tirelessly the way Redick does, is pretty damned athletic. I wonder what you could mean? Hmmm...

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 420837by clipperboy24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:29 PM PST
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15-7 and that's with all new players is more than just ok. We were playing very well with both of the together. And what's more important it was a team designed for the big show. When billups went down it really damaged the team, especially for late in the shot clock possessions. Jamal gets it done by needing the ball, billups worked as both able to work with or without the ball. It was a shame he got injured.

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420838by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:33 PM PST
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You really want to go there with Chauncey? How old was he when he joined the team? You don't think injuries and lack of production from him was inevitable?

                
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clipperboy24
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420839by clipperboy24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:33 PM PST
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Actually agent, Chauncey was a very good defender, a little undersized but a solid defender. Better than what we have seen from Redick if that means anything.

Did you actually watch billups on the clippers?

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420840by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:36 PM PST
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We all saw Chauncey play for the Clippers. He started off well enough. Not sure I recall his defense being as good as you say. It certainly used to be in his prime.

But while healthy, Chauncey wasn't that bad...for someone "less athletic".

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420841by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:43 PM PST
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Voyeur wrote:
I'm not kidding. A healthy Chauncey and Paul were okay but not as good as having a legit SG. Paul and Bledsoe worked well in stretches. It doesn't mean it would have worked permanently. I think Doc realized that.

chauncey was useless last year, in fact he was a liability on the court.

I still don't understand why you don't think bledsoe would have worked with CP3. The suns are using him with dragic, and it seems to be working quite well.

clipperboy24 wrote:
Did you actually watch billups on the clippers?

chauncey was good in 2011, but it was pretty obvious he was damaged good last season. bledsoe should have gotten all of his minutes last year.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420842by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:48 PM PST
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^

If you still don't understand why a guy like Redick fits the offense better than Bledsoe does, I can't really help you.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420843by chonkyfire24 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:56 PM PST
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Ok whatever you say. You prefer the inferior athlete with a lower ceiling to the freak of nature who's potential is untapped. I completely understand.

I'm sorry, but if a championship is the goal, then i'm taking bledsoe over redick 10 times out of 10. He's a better defender, a better rebounder, and an overall more dynamic player.

In the playoffs, basketball is all about match ups, and a player like redick is much more exploitable than a player like bledsoe.

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420844by Voyeur » Dec 14, 2013 - 12:08 AM PST
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You wouldn't be the first to underestimate JJ Redick.

                
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chonkyfire24
Post ID: 420845by chonkyfire24 » Dec 14, 2013 - 12:28 AM PST
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i think i'm estimating him just fine. Bledsoe is the better athlete though and with doc coaching him he would have been the better player IMO. I don't see the point in downgrading. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420846by Agent0 » Dec 14, 2013 - 01:17 AM PST
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Maybe we have different definitions of good defender, but Chanucey was not a good defender at SG, and he had gotten slow at PG.

The whole team was bad at defense that year actually, so sure, he was "very good" if the definition is very good is below average.

                
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Steady818
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420847by Steady818 » Dec 14, 2013 - 02:30 AM PST
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Chauncey did a solid job before his injury in defending his man.. Pre Injury Billups was great but that is a long time ago already and doesn't matter. JJ isn't bad either..

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 420869by clipperboy24 » Dec 14, 2013 - 01:00 PM PST
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Dupe post

                
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clipperboy24
Post ID: 420870by clipperboy24 » Dec 14, 2013 - 01:05 PM PST
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Go back and watch the games...

But then again you think Jared Dudley is a good defender. Never mind, s don't worry about it

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420871by Agent0 » Dec 14, 2013 - 01:06 PM PST
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Watch the games to see if the team was good defensively or if Chauncey was "very good"? Not going to waste my time, and great argument, lol

Just sad, good old childish antics, gotta love it.

                
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fullcourt
Post Subject: RE: Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread Post ID: 420879by fullcourt » Dec 14, 2013 - 02:20 PM PST
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Willie and Dudley just don't work and them being on the floor together makes the other one look even worse than they actually are.

Doc basically has Blake and CP playing 3 on 5 offensively for 16+ minutes every game.

                
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