Jared Dudley Performance Discussion Thread (P. 17)

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letitbled
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Dudley is who he is....a mediocre forward. He'll probably be closer to a minimum salary player once this contract runs out.

MunoValente
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The main reason he's paid a little more than Barnes now is that he's younger, once he's older he'll be paid less, they are roughly over the course of their careers the same caliber of player and younger guys get paid more. How much less depends on whether the rest his contract he plays more like this year or more like he did with the Suns and how his health holds up.

How he does this year won't be as important as how he does in his contract year though, as a future money goes. Hell maybe he has a good contract year and the team does well and he cashes in late in his career like James Posey. I don't think it will happen, but it's not impossible either.

Laak
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is Barnes starting for Dudley a permanent move?

clipperboy24
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It seems like people on this forum are finally coming to grips with the fact that Dudley is mediocre at best. With that being the case, why should the clippers give him starter minutes?

Even as a rookie, the bar reggie bullock has to go over to equal Dudley's current production is almost a no risk situation.

itsLuigi
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we have two backup small fowards playing starter that is our main problem. i think its time for a trade. dudley and half the bench need to go. thunder got rid of ryan gomes, how hard can it be to get rid of mullens.

DocHollywood
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Dude, you're reaching.

Most people here had much more reasonable expectations of Dudley going into this season then you, especially after hearing about his knee. You seem to have expected a major upgrade over Caron for half the price. His numbers are now very similar to Caron's from last year btw.

I'm still all for packaging Jamal with Barnes to acquire a high level sf in the $8-$9mil range.

And Reggie clearing the bar Dudley has set this year for him is nothing but a leap of faith lol. In 177 NBA minutes, he's been HORRIBLE. That's not to disparage the guy, he's a 25th pick who might bring it all together eventually. Just like with Dudley, most people had reasonable expectations. Stats have already been posted for both players if you have not yet read or adequately internalized their contents. Our young rookie has a long way to go before he meets or exceeds Dudley's stats from this year, let alone his career averages.

DocHollywood
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With his shooting, not a chance. Shooters get paid (Bonner, Novak, etc). This assumes he fully regains his normal athleticism and shooting.

itsLuigi
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jeff green?

DocHollywood
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I vote YES. Green's defense and 3pt shooting have both really improved these last couple seasons. Can't trade with the C's until next year though right?

I'd be willing to trade Jamal with Dudley, but I'd rather it was Barnes. Once he's completely healthy and dialed in to Doc's system I think Dudley will be more valuable to us than Barnes (as our backup sf).

itsLuigi
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i thought it was only a restriction on pierce and garnett?

DocHollywood
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I think you're right actually. It works on the ESPN Trade Machine so it must be David Stern approved! LOL

clipperboy24
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Haha funny guy. Have you seen his per 36? (a stat I really don't care for). It's nearly identical to Dudley, so are you saying Dudley has been horrible? (Not trying to disparage the guy).

namzug
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If we could get Jeff Green, I would be all for it. This would make us a better overall team, defensively as well as offensively. His athleticism would be such an upgrade over Duds.

I'm still pretty sure we can't trade at all with the Celts for the entire season, but if we could I'd be ecstatic to see Jeff Green here.

namzug
Clipper All-Star
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Trade Machine will also let you trade for KG if you try.

Agent0
CTB MVP X2
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Wait, since when did we think Dudley was more than a mediocre forward? Who expects to get players for $4.3M who aren't on rookie contracts that are more than mediocre? Dudley is a really good shooter when healthy. Even this season he's shot as a good shooter that's the extent of any skill he has ever had that was above mediocre. Thinking otherwise is not understanding what kind of player he has been.

Are the clippers in the position to invest $9M on Green even if it was possible? Is it worth that much of an investment over other athletic SF's that can hit the three like Ariza or Chandler, etc who would be $2-3M cheaper, again, if those were even possible?

Still, it's more about compliment a fit than just who is the best player you can think of. This is why all summer while people still wanted Barnes (who, I really don't mind, just not at $3M+ at his age for 3 seasons), I said sign Aminu (assuming it was even possible) because he compliments Dudley in terms of he's a young, long, athletic SF who rebounds, but also has the length to play PF.

clipperboy24
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Honestly if people really thought he was only a mediocre forward then I stand completely corrected. From the way this thread went and the defense people had of him it seemed most thought he would have a good impact much better than caron butler and was much more than a mediocre forward.

So now that we can agree he is only mediocre lets give bullock more of a shot since he would only have to be mediocre to poor to equal Dudley's performance

MunoValente
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It's not like Bullock has been completely shut of minutes, he's played more minutes than Mullens or Jackson, and has just been poor. He's shooting 38%/29% and none of his other numbers stand out either. For as many injuries as we have had if Rivers thought he could help he would played him more, but so far he hasn't even really beat out Willie Green minutes, nevermind Barnes or Dudley. Also even if Reggie Bullock had played well enough to earn minutes, he might not necessarily take them from Dudley, Barnes started last night, but Dudley got the bulk of the minutes, despite still being not 100% physically.

TheDude
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If Denver falls out of PO contention we should offer Dudley/Mullens/2017 1st unprotected for Wilson Chandler. I wouldn't want Jeff Green for 9mil and anyway we'd be forced to send out an extra rotation wing to make the money match.

It's Dudley's fault we lost yesterday. If CP would have played that wouldn't have even been a game but we would have won anyway if Duds just hits a few wide open shots.

TheDude
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Really bothers me now more than ever that we probably could have done the Redick deal without sending Bled out for Dudley. Milwaukee got 2 2nd round picks, one from us and one from Pho. We could have easily offered the extra 2nd rounder and just do the s&t Caron for Redick without giving up our last trade chip for Dudley.

MunoValente
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Milwaukee took only Butler at the end of the free agency period after Ellis and Jennings both bailed on them. At the time they made the deal with Redick they wanted cap space in order to either re-sign those guys or go after another big money free agent. Only after they completely struck on the free agent market, did they bring in Butler as short term filler and at the point of the free agent period Redick would have been long gone.

clipperboy24
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Mullens gets destroyed on defense and is overall terrible and Jackson was a shell who couldn't hit a shot.

Now if you tell me under 10 mpg in 18 games is giving solid playing time the. I just disagree. And for bullock you need to look at the stats a little more. He is shooting 52.9% on 2pt fg attempts coincidentally the same exact % as Dudley and what would be Dudley's CAREER HIGH!

Bullocks 3pt shot has taken a little while to fall but he looked like he was starting to get in a rhythm before the injury. Dudley was at under 30% and everyone was saying just give him time. Bullock has 28 total attempts and many don't want to give him a chance even though he proved to be a sharpshooter in college and has shown glimpses already in the pros.

MunoValente
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Or Barnes or Crawford or Redick or Morris. Lot of guys missing shots they often make yesterday. And of course we were -5 as a team the 2 minutes Mullens played. It was a straight up team loss but we likely would have won if Paul was playing.

Diamond909
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Why are people always saying "we would of won with Paul"? We had lost a lot of games that we could have won but didn't with Paul.....including the Golden State game when Paul missed a wide open layup. Could of, Should of, Would of....... win ball games despite who's missing smh YOU TRY EVEN HARDER AS A TEAM! not use excuses

namzug
Clipper All-Star
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I am a Green fan, and even though I agree that 9 million is steep; I compare it to paying Caron 8 million. I like that he is versatile and can play both the 3 & 4 positions. I like his defense, and clutch abilities. I think his defense is a slightly better version of a younger Matt Barnes. I know that it is not the best defense available, but I do like his defensive abilities.

I don't think Dudley is playing horrible, and definitely don't think we should start Reggie. Dudley is playing his role, and his shooting % is going back to normal if I'm not mistaken. I just feel we are still missing the role of perimeter defender. As much as I like JJ and Jamal, neither is a great wing defender. I want a better wing defender.

I really like Wilson Chandler as well. I think of Wilson Chandler more as a JJ Reddick and Green more as a Jamal, when it comes to offense. They don't have the same game, just speaking of their composure.

MunoValente
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If it's enough to time cut somebody it's probably enough to tell if someone should play more and despite a bunch of injuries he's not played more.

Doc has said repeatedly he'd like to rest Dudley more so he can be healthier for the playoffs, so clearly the other guys haven't inspired enough confidence for him to do that on a regular basis. I'd settle for Barnes playing as well as he did last at year point and running him out there for 30 minutes a game while Dudley gets himself together, but Barnes has been bad, Bullock has been bad, Jackson was bad, Turkoglu is bad and Green has been bad.

Dudley has been a big disappointment this year, but despite that he's still probably been our 7th best player.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
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That's the thing when given more minutes bullock has played solid on both ends of the court and that is with crawford acting like bullock is completely invisible out there. Sorry but if you are going to keep using the injury excuse for Dudley they may as well give the minutes to bullock who has shown he can at least match that crap production and he is a much rebounder and a better defender.

Let Dudley rest. The problem is doc is too committed to, like a few other coaches, not play rookies unless forced to. It took him 40 games to finally pull the plug on Dudley as starter... Shows how stubborn he is

MunoValente
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This particular game stood out as one where Paul would have helped because our offense lost all it's structure at the end the game and Crawford just started jacking in shots. We were making stops and even a slightly more composed and organized offense, would have big difference.

Obviously you do your best and try to win anyway, but commenting that a particular player would help isn't the same as excusing what actually happened.

MunoValente
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That's just not true about Doc. All of Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo, Jared Sullinger, Glen Davis, Leon Powe, Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson and Greg Stiemsma have gotten minutes as rookies for him. If he thinks a rookie can play, he'll play them.

pageC4
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speaking of Chandler, how does Denver feel about him? would they deal him away because those raw stats are very good.

clipperboy24
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All those rookies he had no choice but to play them because the team had no other players at those positions.

namzug
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I'm not sure, but with Galinari out for the year there is probably less of a chance now to get him than before. Unless they are trying to tank, which in turn would probably mean they are looking for picks anyways we have slim chances of getting him. I haven't heard any trade talks involving him, so I don't really have any expectations regarding trading for him.

If we could I would be all for it. I don't hate Duds, but don't like the lack of rebounding.

Barnes has been disappointing lately which I think is due to a lot leaking out, I hope refocuses on being a high energy defensive player.

MunoValente
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Not really. Davis earned minutes for the 07-08 Celtics championship team that had Garnett, Perkins, Powe, P.J. Brown, Scalabrine and would often use Posey and Pierce together. Sullinger got minutes on a team with Garnett, Bass, Wilcox and Jeff Green all who can play at PF just last year.

Agent0
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Repped High Quality Post

We did expect better impact than Caron because he had proven in more than one season and more than one caliber of team (implying consistency over different situations) to be a superior shooter and showed consistency going into the post-season. The reason he was liked so much over Caron is that he does the exact same things impact wise (style wise might be different) except historically shooting much better and being more efficient, but more importantly, makes half the money. A player of Caron Butler's caliber shouldn't be making $8M on any team trying to win.

The expectations were (or should have been) a glue guy shooting elite percentages and effficiency from the field, doing all the little things, minimal turnovers and giving effort. Anything more than that is gravy.

Dudley's best career per 36 numbers project a 15/5/3 player, but that's if he gets the ball more. On a team like the Clippers, he isn't doing as much playmaking, so he would project more as a 14/5/2 player. Doc doesn't have his players stay around for offensive rebounds, so now he projects more as a 14/4/2 player based on his best seasons, if he was playing 36 minutes as a starter on the Clippers.

So I mean we have to have understood the caliber of player coming in to the season unless you will disappoint yourself with unrealistic expectations.

Now, he's underperformed, and somewhat understandably so, but relative to what he could do at his best, it's not wild. This season he's 11/3/2 per 36 with lower shooting numbers, though still good, with a 55.8 TS%. Taking injury regression into account, then sure, we can understand. If he's fully healthy, he should be more of a 13-14 pts, 4 reb, 2 assist per 36 on this team with a TS% between 58-60 percent.

In his current minutes, that would mean instead of:

8.6 pts, 2.2 rebs, 1.6 assists

He should have:

10-11 pts, 3-3.5 rebs, 1.6 assists

Bullock will get minutes if he shows he deserves it. He's shown flashes, but is still young, inefficient and a bit more mistake prone than the other guys. There's no rush to give him minutes really, and he's still small bulk wise for the SF position.

MunoValente
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My concern about someone like Green or Chandler is that other than their minutes played, their numbers aren't really all that far removed from what Dudley or Barnes did just last year. Barnes and Dudley might be having their numbers suppressed from some sort of systematic thing going on with our team or they are just in temporary funks and will bounce back anyway, so there is a chance we would trading for someone of basically similar quality but giving up additional assets to do so.

tense2
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Personally I think he'll more suited to the SG slot.

clipperboy24
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Sullinger I will give you (20 mpg) even though Garnett was in his twilight and couldn't even play 30 mpg and Jeff green played sf more under doc.

But glen davis? He played 13 mpg. That's 4 more than reggie is getting, that's not a lot of playing time. Gomes had 22 mpg, rondo 23 mp and everyone else you mentioned under 17mpg (Leon Powe only played 11 mpg). I don't think there is a strong precedent that he gives a lot of minutes to rookies.

Agent0
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Well rookies minutes always depend on the rest of the team too. In general rookies aren't playing a ton of minutes anyways unless they are stand out guys, and were any of those guys really stand out rookies? Not at all.

Jeremy Lamb is looking nice now, but last season played 23 games, 6.4 MPG and was in the D-League. There's really no rush for Bullock to get minutes. The expectations again need to be tempered, he isn't going to get minutes, explode and be the teams savior at the wing.

clipperboy24
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I hear ya and agree each rookie situation is unique. I don't think reggie will be our savior but I like his defense, rebounding and movement better and feel it would better help the team. Also I would like to see him developed for the future. It's been a long time since we have had a good sf (bobby simmons last?) and its a very strong position in the NBA

MunoValente
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Thing is even 13 or 17 is more than Bullock is playing despite Barnes being out a while and been playing bad and Dudley being banged up and playing bad; you would think Rivers if really rated Bullock right now he'd find a way to play him as much as fairly unremarkable players like Gomes or Sullinger. Players can make an impact in short minutes and if they do they will play more, Bullock clearly hasn't done that.

jarca
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Repped High Quality Post

Anybody sees the Jared Dudley NBA special commercial on TNT. Guess what's it's about? It's freaking Dudley eating food and his love of food lol. No wonder why he came in out of shape

clipperboy24
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You must not have watched rookie year Gomes, he was a very mature player right off the bat and was much better his rookie year than when we had him. Also Sullinger came in with high expectations as long as his back was not injured, he was one of the best players in the nation and they clearly had to get a pf in there as Garnett's tenure as nearing an end.

I think he could do the same thing with bullock but he wants to play Dudley so much because he really thinks he is going to contribute at a high level when the reality is probably not. The same with Barnes, both of those were supposed to be impactful acquisitions/resigning, you don't think he has the pressure to a show those were the right decision? You are trying to say how bad bullock has been when he has given what Dudley gave through 20 games except he is a better rebounder and defender and a worse facilitator and Dudley shot better from 3 pt land 34% to bullocks 29%. But also remember Dudley is a 4th option out not he court as he plays with the stars so often has less defensive pressure on him. All of these things seem to be ignored by the Dudley supporters and its amazing how much people rip on bullock when he has shown solid outings when given the opportunity and promise.

DocHollywood
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You're intentionally being daft. I'm not into finger painting basketball stats with you any more. You understand perfectly well just how superior Dudley's shooting has been to Bullock's without reaching for per 36 stats. Unfortunately, you'd rather troll then just accept the facts and move on. If it seems to anyone that I'm being overly harsh, read from the beginning of this overgrown thread and count the number of times this guy has very clearly intentionally taken my words out of context and tried to throw them back at me. It just pollutes the otherwise mature and constructive dialogue a majority of people here enjoy having.

clipperboy24
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Here is the funny thing, I feel the same way about you so agree to disagree I guess.

You know his 2pt shooting is identical to Dudley's right? The only thing Dudley is currently doing better is shooting the 3 ball (which bullock only has 26 attempts, which please that is a very small sample size) and assisting of which Dudley is barely even doing so please to look at the facts again. I am not trolling but am frustrated with what I see and what I read with people who are to me hypocritical in attacking bullock but defending Dudley. Bullock has barely gotten a chance but so many want to shut him out but Dudley deserves all the grace when to me he hasn't proven much in his career.

Also I have contributed a lot more to this site than you so it's ironic you are stirring things up and then calling me a troll when I have been on here contributing for over 5 years.

DocHollywood
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Nothing hypocritical about it dude. You, not I, try to provoke people by purposefully pulling the straw man on them. I'm done with you.

david
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Let's not be calling any other members here "daft". If you can't debate without personal attacks, please don't do so at all.

DocHollywood
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That's cool. I will not be engaging in conversation with Clipperboy24 any more so I shouldn't have any reason to feel provoked. Thanks!

pageC4
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great points CB24. I think in this debate many things are being cherry picked to support a side. the truth is there are pros and cons to each player, and its good to see that Dudley is not as perfect as some paint him here.

MunoValente
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That's not the point though, you said Doc doesn't play rookies, he clearly does. He has standards about what expects from a rookie and Bullock hasn't met standards, but Gomes and Sullinger did. Bullock isn't sitting simply because he's a rookie.

namzug
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Personally, it's not my problem with Dudley. I definitely don't think Bullock is ready for that, and why put him under that kind of pressure. To start in front of both Duds and Barnes would be one hell of a pressure cooker. I also don't need stats to see that when Reggie has gotten his shots he still isn't comfortable, lets them go but not as smooth as in college (something doesn't look right yet, probably has to get comfortable with nba speed).

Let's not pretend that Dudley isn't a 3pt specialist that is average to good at just about everything but rebounding. His rebounding numbers are terrible, taking into consideration how many times he's been in the line up as a small ball 4. I know I checked a few weeks ago and he had the worst rebounding percentage of any starting small forward, and was close to the bottom of all small forwards period. To put it in perspective, Barnes and Butler have played half of the minutes Duds has and they both individually still have more rebounds than him. His 3pt shooting has gotten better since that first 7 game road trip, and his mid range game is really good in my opinion. I don't consider him a strong finisher, but think we all know that.

I don't have a problem with starting Barnes, and giving more minutes to Bullock. I don't have a problem with keeping Duds in the starting rotation, if we are certain it is an injury related problem that he will improve. I also am not opposed to trading any of them to get a better option. If we could get Kyle Korver (which I wanted in the offseason, but was satisfied when we got JJ), would be great. You can add Chandler, Green, and Ariza to that list.

Just in case you want to look up what he looks like in comparison to a few other small forwards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... mp;y6=2014

ClippersDA
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I like reggie but I'd trade him if we had a chance to upgrade at that position. We would get the most back for him rather than Dudley barnes.

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