Clippers Vs. Grizzlies Official Game Thread 2013-11-18 (P. 8)

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clipperboy24
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Wow that game was frustrating. How do you play Dudley for that many minutes he looks so fat and slow its disgusting. I really believe if he had g en bullock 10-15 minutes we would have won solely based on his defense compared to Dudley's. River just coached like a fool and got way too caught up in the "rivalry" we have with the grizzlies.

Voyeur
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I've had time to mull this game over. Though I was pretty angry our big guys couldn't stop their big guys I must admit, they are great players (much as I dislike them) and can score on basically anyone when they are aggressive. Also it difficult to guard when officials handcuff Blake. However, I'm not so sure their big guys could have stopped ours either. Early on, Blake had nice inside position against Z Bo and scored easily a few times, even drawing a foul. Maybe that's because so much attention was being paid to our shooters. I honestly believe DJ couldn't have done the same on Gasol. I remember the last regular season game at Memphis, DJ had a monster game. Which means the actual point of our offense was working. As long as they were doing a good job on our shooters, Blake and DJ were in good position. It means absolutely nothing if we don't keep going to them.

Now Doc said he didn't want to play THEIR game, but if our best chance to score is inside and we might actually be able to get their big guys in foul trouble, why not stick to it? Then when someone helps out, Blake fires to an open JJ or Jared. It may be basic and predictable, but it seemed to be the only thing working last night. Blake would end up with 21 attempts but a lot of those weren't really in the post.

Of course none of this would be as necessary if CP3's offense was going or if JJ and Jamal weren't cold all night.

xldicelx
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why wasn't willie on the floor.... the game was close all along... play others to see if we can get any sort of push....

was last night cp3's worst game so far? just curious...... I was there and i wanted my money back..... i don't mind a lose if the game was interesting but it was boring no defense what so ever.....

Silasie
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I didn't see the game last night so let me know if I have missed something, but if JJ, Jamal and Chris are all cold aren't we going to lose to most playoff teams.

And we only lost by 4.

Voyeur
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True. When you put it that way it does put things in perspective.

Silasie
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As I said I didn't see the game as I usually don't (time difference) and I woke up this morning eager to find out we had got a bit of revenge on the Enemy. Of course I was disappointed and tried to piece together what had happened. And frankly it sounded like we just had an off night. Some people seemed to think that Doc made some bad decisions and D was not good. But lets face it, our shooters shot badly and we lost by 4. At least we didn't play well and lose like the TWolves did against us.

Voyeur
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So do you think Memphis really might trade Z Bo? I wouldn't necessarily bet on it, but just curious.

Akclipps
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I was kinda disappointed that we shot a lot of 3's when were supposed to keep pounding them inside to get zach and marc in foul trouble. We shot 23 three pointers only made 7, our first option need to be scoring from the inside first then outside. I'm pretty sure doc has an idea now on how our team match up with memphis. We played bad but only down by four I'm not mad

CP3Heliflopter
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The thing is we should have won even if they were cold but their bigs trampled all over our bigs as per usual including Blake and DJ. We are still ranked 29th in the league defensively.... If we even play average defense we win no problem.

Most teams that have won chips were ranked 10 in the league defensively at the very least. In recent memory only the 01 Lakers won but they were in reality an elite defensive team that coasted in the RS and the 95 Rockets butchered their roster to get Drexler.

So really its top 10 defense or bust and were nowhere close right now....

Silasie
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Well Odom could certainly help. Also our D is good at times but inconsistent. Was Blake and DJ's D bad all night?

CapsNClips
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No, they started off incredible on D. They were doubling Randolph and Gasol before they'd even touch the ball and forcing them to pass it to a wing player. Then they just stopped, not sure why.

tense2
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Yup. Here's a good breakdown on just that from WoW:

http://wagesofwins.com/2012/11/13/does- ... pionships/

Silasie
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It seems like it will take a while for the D to be played with focus and intensity all game long. If we can do that we have an offense that could go far.

ClippersDA
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I love how first take compared us to brooklyn in terms of stumbling out of the gates. Why us? Why not the rockets? We could play way better but 7-4 isn't terrrrible. I am very disappointed in The loss yesterday.

LobAngelesBlakers
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This is not a knock on our current coaching staff whatsoever, but that type of mentality is what I liked about Vinny. He was not afraid to find who was hot on the roster, Doc seems to have the old school mentality, that there are 15 people on a team, and 9 of them play.

But I can see where both styles have their pros and cons, I am more liking Doc's style, but its night like this where I wish he would be more open to play Willie and Bullock, there could be a highly efficient scorer riding the pine, and we wouldn't know the difference.

Voyeur
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Once Blake collected 3 fouls (2 VERY questionable ones), he couldn't defend like he would've wanted.

xldicelx
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Exactly... it was a given by the third, that the clips just looked out of it. tired? etc. at that point pull the plug on your game plan and experiment. it's just another regular season game (at this point - but not saying losing is ok) but try it... if it doesn't work pull the plug too and don't let CP3 and blake play 500mins and we get a loss (it ain't the playoffs) either way I was upset it wasn't a hyped game..... (since i was there and wish I didn't go)

Heediot
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7-4 with the toughest strength of schedule so far isn't too shabby.

Heediot
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Repped!

Agent0
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In terms of game planning for Memphis, I don't remember how SA and OKC played them, but one thing the Clippers haven't do e much is look to get the ball out of Conley's hands and not make the pick and pop / get the ball to Gasol so easy. Make Tayshaun or Allen have to do so e set-up work. I think it would help disrupt their flow.

Miami's defense has struggled at times when they are chilling, but when they lock in, they seem to always be able to bring it. One position they usually defend well is the PG position.

Watch how Bosh hedges the pick and roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxvWIC5vZB4

Watch how he contains and positions himself based on reading the play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxiaFkc-n2w

I think reading the play might be the issue sometimes, the bigs are thinking hard hedge, but sometimes you don't need to do that

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waklfbK4F2I

And another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQZZndWhpQQ

Here's a clip of how rotation and recover should work. Bosh' man is picked up halfway, then Bpsh recovers and the helper gets back to his own man

Bosh's advantage on Blake is that he's so much longer, it's hard to split the defense against him or get around him. Boss's advantage on DJ is better lateral quickness but also that he plays in better defensive stance and is much lower to the ground.

I think as the season goes on, these guys are capable of getting that well, but that doesn't help the bench defense issue.

Icecoldclipper
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Next day feeling better about the team biggest worry is on the road. Team seemed to be very flat on the road outside of Houston game.

CP3Heliflopter
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Odom can help a lot but not THAT much. If our defense was average for instance he could MAYBE make us close to top 10 defensively since he way better than our bench bigs defensively.

Odom can only help so much.

What bewilders me is why people even talk about our offense like it is an issue. Redick, Paul and Crawford were ALL off and we still managed to score at a very nice clip against an ELITE defensive team.

On the flip side, we made a POOR offensive team look like an ELITE offensive team. If we even played average or slightly below average defense we would have won handily against the Griz. The problem has always been defense just like last playoffs.

We are a top 2 offensive team and with Dudley playing way below his norm.

toohipcliptoslip
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Agent0 that's far too much information. Couldn't you just say Bosh is long and ugly?

What beat us was Gasol. He for a spell was totally unstoppable. He has been our problem in the past. He's so long that he shoots over anybody.He has a good set shot and is a good FT shooter. He so big that once he gets a head of steam you can't keep him from the rim.

tense2
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We stopped him for more then a spell...he was 8-22 for 23 pts. Not very efficient. Think Zack, Conley and Koufos did a lot of the damage.

CP3Heliflopter
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Zack and Koufos were a lot better than Gasol last game actually. Koufos was like 5/5 or something.

Zack outplayed BG. 9/15 and 16 boards I think.

tense2
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^Worse or better, lol. Think you meant better.

Agent0
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Haha, I actually like Bosh, I think he's a lot better player than people think as a member of the Heat and his defense is much better than most think. He's arguably an elite pick and roll defensive big man.

Gasol wasn't that great, he did facilitate well, but I wouldn't say his individual offense was what killed the team last night.

ClipperPostman
Clipper All-Star
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Willie isn't that good. I watched every game and Bullock has not been a game changer whatsoever. For a rookie he's been "Decent" at best.

Doc knows what he is doing. Building a team for the playoffs isn't about rotating guys in just to try to get an early season win.

It's about getting your core units to keep playing and getting better together. I never liked that about vinny. Keep your rotation solid so they can grow together.

The only thing I didn't like in this game was when blake had 3 fouls and they iso'd Gasol on Blake, their was no double from DUDley to make Gasol make a play.

The hardest place to make a passing play from is back to the basket iso where everyone is on the opposite side of basket.

Agent0
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My question is always how is SA so good at not fouling AND keeping opponent eFG% down so well? (I know it is discipline and a little bit of respect from refs). I know Popovich is one of the "don't foul" coaches because FT's are too efficient, but SA so far:

Opponent FTA/FG: .140 (lowest in the league)

Opponent eFG%: .461 (5th best)

DRB%: 78.7% (best in the league)

Here's an interesting theme though. There are 6 teams under .190 FTA/FG:

San Antonio (.140)

Minnesota (.154)

Philadelphia (.168)

Atlanta (.175)

Indiana (.179)

Chicago (.186)

3 of those teams are the top 3 defenses in the league:

1) SA (94.2 Drtg)

2) Indiana (94.3 Drtg)

3) Chicago (96.0 Drtg)

and one is 6th

6) Minnesota (100.7 Drtg)

Minnesota is only average (.493 opponent eFG%, league average = .493 eFG%), and are below average (73.4 DRB%, league average = 74.2) on the defensive glass, but because they don't foul, second least fouling team, their defense is good. FT's are just super efficient points. Now, I won't say really low foul rates correlate with good defense because it depends on if it is discipline or if it is just moving away from players going to the basket, but it certainly helps if it is the first.

At a league average of 75%, the average team scores 1.5 pts/possession on FT's. The league's best offense according to Basketball-reference is Miami. They have a 113.5 Ortg. You only need to hit about 56-57% of your FT's to match Miami's overall offense. If Miami played a whole game and fouled you every possession, you only need to hit 56-57% of your FT's to match their offense!

Fouling is BAD defense! Clippers of course, continuing the pattern are the second worst fouling team in the league. The difference in the Memphis series last season was FT's if we really want to just break it down to the simplest thing, it was the FT's. You would have been better off letting Marc Gasol hit 48% from 16-23 feet than hit FT's.

Of all the teams above .230 FTA/FG (11 teams) so far this season, none of them have an above average defense. Not because it isn't possible, but because it is much harder. The closest to average (104.1) are Dallas (104.8 Drtg | .256 FTA/FG), Boston (104.5 Drtg | .240 FTA/FG) and New Orleans (105.1 Drtg | .257 FTA/FG).

Last season had a similar theme. Of all the teams above .210 FTA/FG (9 teams), only two teams, LAC and Boston had an above average defense.

It's certainly not a final word, but the pattern is there that fouling more does make it harder to limit the opposing offense. Like I said, FT's are just too efficient. On the other side of things, I wouldn't say fouling at an extremely low level = good defense, I haven't looked into that more than the pattern this season, but fouling A LOT hurts defense.

    *the FTA/FG numbers aren't the same across seasons because I'm picking a cut off that is representative of about the bottom third of the league, and the FTA/FG average isn't consistent from year to year

Voyeur
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Well in SA's case I think they have a really solid "system" of defense that doesn't necessarily rely on individual defense. Kinda like their offense. Everything is just a well oiled machine. I think that's where Doc wants to take us. But imagine Pop joining a team for the first time and trying to implement his system, especially with key young guys. It wouldn't happen overnight. I think your right. I've never believe you have to foul to play good defense. Just like I don't think forcing turnovers is the key to good defense either. It's nice when it happens, but it won't win playoff games honestly.

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