Blake Griffin Gets Lot of Blame While Chris Paul Gets a Pass (P. 2)

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clipper*joe
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I disagree. BG's best year was with Baron and he isn't like any of the PG's you mention. BG needs a PG who will play to his talents and if it means being creative with the ball more, taking chances with passes, and giving him those lobs to make him happy. That's how you get the most of out him it seems. Playing with CP3 has made him more of a finesse player which isn't a bad thing but you have feed the beast more like BD did.

Agent0
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Westbrook doesn't dominate the ball? That's the first I've heard of that. Curry has become more ball dominant with Jack gone, but they do use Iguodala as a set up guy to get Curry open jumpshots.

Not really getting why those guys would specifically benefit Blake's effectiveness.

clipper_joe, that's an interesting thought actually about rookie Blake vs now, people kept reminiscing last year about it. It was certainly his most aggressive year offensively, but that was also team dynamics in that the team wasn't as good, less options during the year because of injuries to Gordon.

Baron pushes the pace, a lot, and he's not as safe as Paul, but then while Baron might benefit a player on offense, Paul benefits the whole teams effectiveness positively. Clippers were 12th in pace in 10-11, 92.8 possessions/game though I feel like it was faster when Baron was actually on the floor (yes, I could be wrong, anyone have the numbers on that?). This year the team is 9th in pace at 95.8 possessions / game. So I guess even if Baron was faster, he might not have been more than the 95.8 so far this year.

It was certainly his best year in terms of raw stats, but it's hard to say it was his best year. Offensively of course, there's always the hard task of deciphering between scoring more pts, etc and actually being a better offensive player for a good team. 1) He was admittedly less focused on defense, it was the worst defensive year or his career, but being a rookie, it makes sense 2) He was playing more minutes that year than any other year, so we have to take that into account in terms of production 3) The last two seasons, especially last year he's been more efficient on offense without scoring much less when he's on the floor, much better on defense, and last season was his best passing season of his career.

I think last season he had the best combination of all-round play except for his lack luster defensive rebounding.

CP3Heliflopter
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Westbrook doesn't dominate the ball? Now I have heard it all.

clipper*joe
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Agent0 wrote:

clipper_joe, that's an interesting thought actually about rookie Blake vs now, people kept reminiscing last year about it. It was certainly his most aggressive year offensively, but that was also team dynamics in that the team wasn't as good, less options during the year because of injuries to Gordon.

Agreed, different team dynamics and less options but he was still more aggressive. Not so much as aggressive as taking the bulk of the shots, but more aggressive at how he went about his offense.

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Baron pushes the pace, a lot, and he's not as safe as Paul, but then while Baron might benefit a player on offense, Paul benefits the whole teams effectiveness positively. Clippers were 12th in pace in 10-11, 92.8 possessions/game though I feel like it was faster when Baron was actually on the floor (yes, I could be wrong, anyone have the numbers on that?). This year the team is 9th in pace at 95.8 possessions / game. So I guess even if Baron was faster, he might not have been more than the 95.8 so far this year.

I wasn't necessarily talking about pace, I was talking about the way Baron was able to create plays for Blake that no one else has been able to, or unwilling to do because it wasn't safe. take for instance, Cp3 has never thrown a lob to BG where BG spins off his defender for a basically, a unstoppable play. Cp3 is unwilling to do that and proof is in watching BG the last 2 seasons (not this one) every time CP3 would turn away. Again, it wasn't the pace i was talking about, it's about the way Baron made sure to create offense for BG in such a way, that to me, seemed like it made BG happy.

clipper*joe
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I think the OP was talking about raw stats. As far as points, points and offensive raw stats kinda does say he had his best season. we can talk about the nuances of a player getting stats on a bad team or good team but nonetheless, statistically speaking, he did.

I do agree, we're seeing a more refined and expanding BG but he has lost some of those attributes that made him a beast. I love how he's expanding his range as well as getting back to getting on those boards.

tense2
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Speaking about CP3 feeds to Blake, here are the 5 best Paul to BG assists so far this year according to Eric Patten:

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/friday ... ists-blake

CP3Heliflopter
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tense2 wrote:
Speaking about CP3 feeds to Blake, here are the 5 best Paul to BG assists so far this year according to Eric Patten:

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/friday ... ists-blake

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Through 20 games, Chris Paul has connected with Blake Griffin for 77 assists, the most by any one player in the league to a single teammate. That's 46 percent of Griffin's field goals.

A telling stat. BUT CP3 doesn't feed Blake at all. Baron did a better job!

Baron does throw riskier passes but that also means more turnovers.

clipper*joe
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CP3Heliflopter wrote:
A telling stat. BUT CP3 doesn't feed Blake at all. Baron did a better job!

CP3Heliflopter
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The fact is Blake's reduced scoring has nothing to do with PG play it has to do with the fact that he is on a much better team with much more capable scorers. Before he was on a bad team so he had to score a lot more. When you play will other stars/scorers your scoring will go down. Look at how many shots Lebron took in Cleveland in comparison to when he went to the Heat. Blake's scoring has went down a bit but his efficiency has improved.

That being said it would be nice if Doc ran more plays for him in the post.

pageC4
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I will agree with you on this. I think there were a lot of dynamics going on that last year that Baron was here. For one he viewed Griffin as the ultimate weapon to feed the ball to. Also, they were both at completely different stages of their career: Blake Griffin barely breaking into the NBA, and Baron Davis likely on the way out. I think this definitely set the stage for Baron to completely defer to Blake. Baron was not that effective at that point in his career, but he was wisely making sure that he would not impede Blake's growth and let it be known that Blake was the star of the Clippers.

I think there was definitely a genuine desire on Baron's part to ease Blake into being the star and catalyst of that team. With CP3 the situation is different. Paul came onto the Clippers roster at the peak of his career, not on the twighlight of his career as Baron did. So quite possibly Paul wasn't quite ready to give up that control yet, or he probably didn't see the need to be so centered on developing Blake as Baron did. Whatever the reasoning was, yes you are correct in arguing that Blake did seem to happier with his arrangement/chemistry with Baron.

I even remember one game where Baron even rushed in to shove an opposing teams player because he was getting too physical with Blake. You don't quite see that relationship between Blake and Chris though, but clearly Baron was looking to cater to Blake

Agent0
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CP doesn't like to thrown the spin pass, you could see Blake get a little frustrated sometimes when he would go for it and Paul would be like no. Paul has thrown it to him before though, just not often. Andre Miller is a guy who is great at that, Mo Williams was quite willing to throw it also. Baron did do a play like that more often, but Paul feeds him in some other ways that other guys wouldn't find him. Play no3: http://www.nba.com/clippers/friday-five-chris-paul-blake-griffin-no-3 Is exactly the play you are referring to. It's not that Paul doesn't do it, he's just more....

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MartyKahn
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taking a lot of shots isn't the same as dominating the ball. Westbrook gets his shots, but he doesn't just dribble 20secs of the shot clock away. And the attention Curry gets would really open things up for Blake. Blake needs to be in an O with more freedom.

clipper*joe
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I thought about that stat a bit and I think a good portion of those connections come from feeding him out on the perimeter. BG, according to Mike smith, is shooting 40+ from the perimeter this season. I'd say just about all those shots are assisted by CP3.

Anyway, I did say I like the refinement of BG this season. I especially like that he's working hard on the boards again. Something he seemed he lost last season, at least to the naked eye. That was also the season where reports were out about BG and CP3 not being on the same page.

I stand by my original statement though...BD knew how to set him up and knew how to get the most out of him. CP3 is doing a fine job too, just in a different, and safer way.

clipper*joe
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You pretty much filled in the gaps as to why this was happening. Nicely done.

Oh, that altercation was during a Clippers/Lakers game. That was Odom and BG.

pageC4
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ah, yeah correct it was against the Lakers. That was an interesting game. I remember that whole season long Kobe was trying to recruit Blake. You could see him talking to him and putting his arm on Blakes shoulders lol. The moniker "Black Mamba" is perfect for kobe and his sneaky, snake-like ways.

Agent0
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taking a lot of shots isn't the same as dominating the ball. Westbrook gets his shots, but he doesn't just dribble 20secs of the shot clock away. And the attention Curry gets would really open things up for Blake. Blake needs to be in an O with more freedom.
Well Paul also doesn't just dribble 20 seconds of the shot clock away. You don't have a good offense by doing that, and Westbrook does dominate the ball. Really only him, Durant or Reggie Jackson have the ball in their hands significantly on the team, and Durant does more off ball stuff. NBA.com....

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tense2
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^Yep, using meaningful data to backup a thoughtful response in a discussion seems to me to be the reasonable right way to go. And as always you do a pretty darn good job of that.

clipperstown
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blake gets his touches, you can tell just by watching the game. difference is, blake's role on this team isn't to just score and rebound. he's needed as a facilitator in the post, that's why his touches don't end up in buckets. that's why a lot of the time he gets the ball in the high post. Also, i don't think he's completely learned about positioning yet. if he wants to score, he needs to establish positioning in the low post and then ask for the ball, and use his jumper only in pick n pop situations.

lucas26
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Cp3 is emotional and likes to play martyr and Blake is just Blake. Paul always tries to lay blame on himself but doesn't really mean it.

MartyKahn
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After the Cavs gm, please delete this thread. Blake sux and probably should be a bench player somewhere.

10pts vs the freakin Cavs.

lucas26
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Actually, I'm starting to question Paul's leadership skills. He maybe selling but not a lot of buyers.

Agent0
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Generally what happens is that leadership is good when you win and bad when you loose. Honestly people would call Duncan a "bad" leader if he wasn't on winning teams / playing with Pop. I don't get too worried about how good of a leader a player is perceived to be, it just becomes such a trivial guessing game discussion.

lucas26 wrote:
Cp3 is emotional and likes to play martyr and Blake is just Blake. Paul always tries to lay blame on himself but doesn't really mean it.
Well he better have meant it last night with his awful shooting

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After the Cavs gm, please delete this thread. Blake sux and probably should be a bench player somewhere.

10pts vs the freakin Cavs.

Bad teams aren't necessarily bad defensive teams, eg: Bobcats this year. Of course there's nothing that say having bad games against a bad team isn't possible either.

I've always found it weird when people say "against this team or that team" as if even the players on bad teams generally still aren't NBA players and that on any given night a team can play great on either end. Not to mention that sometimes it is just a matchup / adjustment (lack of) issue.

P.s. - Interesting that after getting rid of Mullens, despite still sucking massively on offense, Bobcats so far this year went from horrible (last, 30th out of 30) on defense last season to being the 3rd best defense giving up only 99.7 pts/100. CRAZY! (It's not all Mullens, but just had to put that in there)

That Jeff Adrien guy is pretty good, and Al Jefferson the previously known defensive sieve is now helping a team to play great defense. Crazy!

Laak
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Paul does make mistakes sometimes and might of cost some games, but it is incomparable to what he contributes.

Without CP3, I don't even think the Clips would be above .500.

I don't know why you guys want BG over CP3 to have the ball during clutch time...

You can never rely on someone who doesn't have a good post game, free throw shooting to lead your team. And that's what Blake still is right now.

He can put up 20, 30 points for the majority of the game. But I guarantee you during clutch time, when teams ACTUALLY TRY to defend, they'll read Blake inside out, and he'll have little success.

He's much better than last year, but still needs to improve for me to trust him down the stretch.

namzug
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I think wanting Blake to have the ball in the 4th right now is more about having more than one option during playoff time.

I think Blake's biggest problem is a confidence thing, where when he is feeling confident he can be dominant. Working on things like getting good position and making teams double team him will only free up CP.

If we rely solely on CP then I can tell you every teams plan come playoff time. Stop CP and there it is. If Blake starts getting involved in the 4th and becomes a force who do you go after. You can't double two players during the playoffs, this is a big reason why OKC lost last year without Westbrook.

Silasie
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Good post.

Voyeur
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If CP3 becomes our only offense down the stretch in playoff games, it'll be his own fault. With Redick, Crawford and Blake, he's got the weapons.

Unless for some reason NONE of those weapons shows, which seems unlikely.

pageC4
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I don't see this as happening to be honest. Paul seems more willing than ever to defer to other players offensively at least. Even at the start of the season he seemed to say things along the lines of that the Clippers will only go as far as Blake will take them. At this point in his career I don't view him as a player who wants the challenge of trying to be the best offensive weapon on his own team. I think the bigger challenge for Chris now is will he be able to contribute offensively if a defensive team like Indiana or Memphis takes our other weapons away.

It seems at least that the biggest obstacle for him is motivation to be that killer we saw against Golden State. I love that version of Chris

namzug
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I agree @Voyeur, what I like is specifically about Blake is he brings a different type of offense. Looking back at this recent stretch it's not unconceivable that we can have bad shooting stretches as well injuries. Blake is the one player on that list that could eventually demand a double team any time he touches the ball within 12 feet, or even has a defensive player guarding someone else tentative to leave Blake's defender alone with him from further out.

I only have a problem with CP not treating Blake like the star that he is. If Blake demands the ball you should feel inclined to give him the ball, Blake is a smart player that knows when he has an advantage. I did see this more during the Cleveland game where Blake would ask for the ball and he would be passed up. If CP's shot is not falling in nothing really happens, if Blake's is not falling in he doesn't get the ball as much. This is partially on Blake, because Blake has a tendency to stop going to the basket as well as not shooting open shots when he is having a bad night on occasion. Example is if Duncan demands the ball from Parker, Parker is going to give him the ball regardless of who might be the better player at this point in their careers.

I sometimes feel like this is the elephant in the room. I think both these guys are great, and feel that Doc will address this in his own way. I do think CP says all the right stuff, but I think that he also wants to be the guy. In my opinion to really be able to win a Championship, I think Blake needs to be the guy; unless we are playing lockdown D and team ball like the Detroit Pistons.

CP3Heliflopter
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It was the case last playoffs with Crawford being a no show, Billups being horrendous and Blake being limited. Heck Barnes was our 2nd best player during the playoffs.

itsLuigi
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only reason i'm on the trade crawford bus

part of the fault was del negro's but still

Voyeur
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Yeah, I can't explain Crawford, hopefully he'll redeem himself. At least this year we won't be forced to start Chauncey (let alone play him in the 4th quarter of Game 5!). Hopefully Blake won't sprain anything (he's due for a healthy playoff appearance). And I'm excited to see what JJ can contribute in the post season.

ClipperDB
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I think CP WANTS to give Blake the ball. I think the problem is Blake doesn't want the ball. In the 4th qtr of a close game, Blake becomes a passing "role player" - not a "Star"

ClipperDB
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and when Blake is being single-teamed, he does not "punish" the defender, like Charles pointed out.

Voyeur
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He should also WANT to give the ball to Jamal, or JJ. That's my point. No excuses.

CP3Heliflopter
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Since when has he had a problem giving the ball to Jamal or JJ?

Voyeur
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He hasn't so far.

But down the stretch in a playoff game? We don't know yet.

Voyeur
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How about some love for Blake during this streak? His numbers during the 5 straight wins:

24 points, 51% FG, 82% FT (nearly 9 FTA's per game), 10.8 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 1.4 steals!

Silasie
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Yeah man, he's stepping up!

Voyeur
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I wonder if he'll have another shot at West Player of the Week? His numbers aren't as gaudy as Love's for the last 4-5 games, but Love has a lot of losses. Aldridge only has 1 loss, but his numbers aren't necessarily up there with Blakes for the week. Durant also had a loss last night. Maybe someone else could win it, but those are the usual suspects.

Icecoldclipper
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Blake has been doing a great job finding the perfect blend of getting his often but getting others shots. Paul seemed to have come back down to earth the past two games on his percentages and assertion scoring wise. Even when matched up with JJ Barea he seemed passive.

Agent0
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If you look at his years in Atlanta his 3PT shooting was consistent, he was still drawing some fouls, but his scoring inside the arc was not as effective. Still altogether he can produce about average, a bit below average offense in the post-season, down from being more of a good offensive producer, but not bad.

Looking at his years in ATL also:

Regular season (09-10):

20.9 pts/36, 38.2% 3PT, .573 TS%, 114 Ortg

Playoffs:

18.4 pts/36, 36.0% 3PT, .499 TS%, 103 Ortg

Regular season (10-11):

16.9 pts/36, 34.1% 3PT, .545 TS%, 105 Ortg

Playoffs:

18.6 pts/36, 35.0% 3PT, .521 TS%, 105 Ortg

Now look at the opponents. Jamal is not Chris Paul, Paul can produce similar to his normal against elite defense, but that is why Paul is an elite player and elite level scorer. Jamal is not despite his dancing abilities. Still, look at 10-11. Same overall Ortg as regular season against the 3rd and 1st defense, higher 3PT%, barely dropped in TS%, and he did this with a higher scoring rate.

He played:

-Milwaukee (2nd Drtg), Orlando (3rd Drtg)

-Orlando (3rd Drtg), Chicago (1st Drtg)

-Memphis (2nd Drtg)

So in ALL 5 playoff series', Jamal has played against a top 3 regular season defense. That will definitely mess with you efficiency.

So in that context, his playoff production is actually not that bad. I'm not saying you want to produce poorly against good defenses, but these teams were holding opponents to very low production, he was producing at or a little better Ortg than these teams allowed the average team. In that proper context, I can't say he was playing poorly, he's a good scorer, but not a superstar, and it's already a hard thing for superstars against those types of defenses.

Against Memphis, he ran into Tony Allen, and before game 6 where he went 0 for and never got back in the game, he was at a somewhat similar production rate to his previous seasons.

13.0 pts in 29.8 mins (15.7 pts/36), .526 TS%, 30% 3PT, 112 Ortg

He wasn't turning the ball over at all (3 in 5 games). He didn't shoot great, but he was 33%+ from 3PT in 4/5 games, the 1/6 in game one made his shooting look worse from 3 than it was over the first 5.

He was 0/5 in the first 12 minutes of game 6 then never got back on. Since he was playing with all bench unit, he had Tony Allen stuck on him more than he needed. If he was on with Paul more, since they were using Allen on a Paul at decent amount, it could have given him some relief.

Voyeur
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Forgot about Damian Lillard. They lost a game this week but his performance may have earned him that West award.

pageC4
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thats a huge problem with chris. last night he was in single digits up until late in the game. you can tell that sometimes Chris being better offensively would win the game. especially last night the OT was not necessary, and a better offensive game from Chris in regulation would have prevented that.

still, I think that my wanting chris to be a better offensive player is an opinion that's of the minority.

fullcourt
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This is good stuff its easy to game plan for him when he comes off the bench like that especially for the elite defenses.

What we are seeing now is a good example of why VDN should have started him in the playoffs instead of seeing 8-15 mpg of our 4th quarter lineup teams are getting 30+ mpg of our 4th qtr lineup and with that much time on the floor together CP,Blake ,and jamal eventually figure out how you are playing them and exploit it.

Its much easier to shut us down when we separate our best weapons and lineup like that for long periods of time .

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