Clippers Vs. Hawks Official Game Thread 2013-12-04 (P. 5)

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Icecoldclipper
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Don't have to bother it just get into him and he will pass it. Korver is not a guy that will break someone of the dribble especially with the quickness of Paul faced up. Its basic defense.

Like I said its the team overall needs to improve on defense. Each man is struggling to contain his assignment.

pageC4
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yeah, this is a bad effort. For once I'm glad I don't have prime ticket to watch this. I'm very dissapointed

Agent0
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He does pace himself too much, but is that really the issue when you don't play defense in a game? You can't as a team rely on just you offense to win, even Phoenix could pull out some decent defensive nights.

The Hawks shot 51% FG, 52% 3PT (23 attempts). I'm more worried about defense in a game like that then whether or not a guy is being aggressive enough.

We'd like Paul to play aggressive all the time, but you can't argue offensive results. It's about whether you score well in the end, not as much about how it happens.

Also we can't mix being aggressive with attempting shots

FightOnRon
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ON the plus side,we don't have to listen to Fat Ass Barkley rip us a new one tonight.

ClippersDA
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Our shooters aren't good, our bigs can't grab rebounds or play defense, the guards can't stop penetration...so what exactly are we good at right now? Paul going cold is another issue.

gman
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The way this guys were "guarding" him (Green, Jamal, CP) you can just put JJs name next to him. Heck, JJ would been closer to him from where ever he is at than the Clippers SGs today.

CP3Heliflopter
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Nice offhanded comment based off of nothing. Again has nothing to do with the loss but do try again.

The primary reason we loss this game is because we let role players like Korver and Carroll(who the hell is that?) go off. Korver scored 23 points on 12 shots and Carroll scores 12 in 6 shots. Not to mention Milsap and Horford also went off.

You can't expect to score 100+ points every night that is why good defense is so important and our D was just putrid.

Clipperfn4lf
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Is a coincidence opposing PF **** on us? Or is it Blake's defense?

Markojaric
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did mullens actually have a nice 15 ft shot?

Agent0
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If you stick to him, you can keep him in check, but Korver can move off the ball and Korver can put the ball on the floor against a hard close-out and hit a mid-range jumper or soft shot closer to the basket, so even if you stick to him, a guy like Paul can't ever guard a Korver because as soon as he gets some space it's too easy to shoot over Paul.

That doesn't negate that Paul was helping one pass away, not sticking to him, but it was a terrible defensive matchup any way it is sliced

Icecoldclipper
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6 shots with Green, Dudley, Jordan and Griffin (only taking 5 himself) is not enough. These two need to go into Durant and Westbrook mode how the team is configured and being on the road. On the road stars have to go the extra mile.

gman
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I would not blame Blake all alone tonight. We know he is not a great defender, but he made Milsap work for his points. When he gets blown by, where was the help?

It should be a team based defense. We do not have a lockdown defender. They should help each other out.

Agent0
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I previously said "If you stick to him, you can keep him in check"

Of course if a player is stuck like glue on a shooter to neutralize him, it's all about the offense taking advantage of one less help defender and attacking the basket because it should lead to better spacing. So a shooter is still valuable if he isn't scoring because the opposing defender is super focused on him.

Gman, and even if he was a great defender, it doesn't mean that he couldn't get torched on a particular night, because even great defenders get torched once in a while.

CP3Heliflopter
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That would not be smart at all. No matter how you try to swing it BG and CP3 are nothing like that duo and going WB mode isn't exactly smart with his poor shot selection. Don't confuse aggressiveness with shooting a lot.

Again has little to nothing to do with the loss. We struggled because our defense was poor. The difference between us and teams like the OKC, Spurs, Heat and OKC are that they are all top 5-top 10 defensive teams.

gman
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Did we attempt a free throw in the 4th quarter?

We got killed on 3s.

Can not play defense for a long period of time.

They shot 51% from the field and 52%!! from 3s.

-24 from 3S that is how bad it was.

Icecoldclipper
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When we help teams make the extra pass and we get mad at players for getting open dunks. We rarely if ever help the helper. Its either got to be Dudley or JJ canceling out the extra body but either it never happens are we are not physical enough to stop the play. The defense is struggling and the offense has taken a huge dive.

Agent0
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I think this is what the whole media, and even Clippers fans loose sight of. These teams aren't better just because of some magical way of playing offense. They are better because when they play mediocre offense, they can still win games. I think when you watch your team so much and not other teams, you make assumptions about them that aren't true.

OKC has a lot of bad offensive games, even SA has bad offensive games where their fans are probably saying "why is Parker trying to be a hero and taking these shots", "what is wrong with Pop leaving ___ player in".

OKC is 11th in Ortg and still doing well because their defense is 5th. It was 4th last season. That means in a game like this, OKC is more likely to have won not because they scored better, but because Atlanta only scored 95 pts. Same thing with SA, Miami, etc, they can win on both offense and defense.

I agree Gman, there's hardly ever a night to blame just one player. Sure Millsap was great, but the game was won here for Atlanta:

Korver:

8-12 FG / 6-9 3PT / 23 PTS

Carroll:

4-6 FG / 2-2 3PT / 12 PTS

Total:

12-18 FG / 8-11 3PT / 35 PTS

You defended the role player and specialist better, and the game is closer and it might be a different story

Icecoldclipper
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Without question the defense was horrible but the offense was bad in itself. Westbrook is a top tier player player and to dismiss the formula is crazy considering their success. Its not about being OKC its about being more aggressive in their own style when the team needs it.

CP3Heliflopter
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^Those two role players scored nearly 2 points per possession. That was a huge difference maker.

CP3Heliflopter
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You are missing the point you can never be good offensively every night. Look at any team in the league and they have low scoring nights at some point. The Thunder have multiple games where they score in the low 90s-mid 90s but they hold the opposing team to less points.

Icecoldclipper
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I agree if this was on occasion but ever since Jamison started playing and the bench has improved the starters have struggled starting games. I fully recognize the defense is terrible and certain nights you need it to win games. What I am drawing attention to is that the offense has also been an issue as of late. We are a jumpshooting team and when you can't get easy buckets you leave long rebounds and get beat and leave the defense exposed as well. We had trouble in transition and now we are grinding and losing steam again in the halfcourt defense.

Agent0
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The formula also works because Durant is a legendary level scorer in terms of volume and efficiency.

The formula is much less effective without a Durant. Of course the Clippers "formula" is even more effective with a Durant. I love Blake, but switch Blake with Durant and the team is easily the best offense in the league. Add Ibaka at PF to stretch the floor and finish on offense and to be a defensive anchor on the other ends, and it's hard to not be good with any high level creator.

Paul and Nash are in a league of their own when it comes to shot creation amongst player (how much creating they are doing). Westbrook is good too, but not at their level. So you put a Paul with that and it also works, even better.

Westbrook though is not a bad offensive player, he's actually good despite being average / a little below average in terms of efficiency (of course this can hurt you sometimes). He is not the best half-court or isolation player out there, especially in comparison to other top tier PG's, but he's the best fast break PG in the league, and he is effective for how many possessions he uses and creates for others well.

Icecoldclipper
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If we lose to Memphis without the bigs all hell should break loose.

Icecoldclipper
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I was thinking Paul could be in that Durant role that kills you throughout the game and Griffin being that athletic bull. Its part of their games already we just need both to be more selfish especially with the struggles of others and no JJ for hot shooting starts.

Even last year we would rely on Butler for hot starts to get his and then they fill in as the game goes on. We don't have defense to grind out games so we need that offense and selfishness from jump ball.

Voyeur
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I didn't see this game, so I can't speak for it. But I saw Pacers' West hit some difficult shots when Blake played him well. But he also got easy baskets when Blake made his rotation to another player, but nobody (DJ? Jamison?) rotated on West. Gotta remember, a lot of these guys play UP for Blake. Usually Blake outplays most PF's if you look historically. I'm almost wondering about this rotation defense stuff Doc has us doing.

pageC4
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sometimes the team needs to lose in a bad way to bring attention to how bad these pieces really fit. I think presently since we are still in playoff contention it is giving many in the organization a false sense of security. But the way we are playing I wouldn't put it past this team to lose tomorrow as well. I hope the front office has been watching with diligence, and I hope we make some major moves. We are in danger of becoming the New York Knicks of the west

CP3Heliflopter
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So you expect Paul to play a role similar to arguably the best scorer in the league and the be best facilitator in the league at the same time? lol

Your expectations are ridiculous. Paul is not a 6'10 SF with great athleticism. At the end of the day he is a 5'11 PG who has to work harder to score than his larger peers.

pageC4
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The Pacers game was a solid game. We came up short without our best shooter and Matt Barnes. Based on how well we played the best team in the league at the time conventional wisdom would suggest we could beat the Atlanta Hawks, or at the very least fight tooth and nail. But quite the opposite happened tonight. I just don't understand how we can do so well against such a great team like the Pacers and just blow this one

Agent0
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You know, I'm not sure if it is that we relied on Butler's hot starts, or if it is just that Paul went to him to get him shots and keep him happy.

The offense wouldn't have had issues if Butler wasn't scoring, they would have just come from somewhere else.

Paul is the creator though, so I can't see how it would work with him playing a role like Durant. Blake would be the one that makes more sense playing that role, but he's just not that good.

Icecoldclipper
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By far worse DJ game with being Chicago. Even in the Chicago game he made little plays and bigger plays late to cover some of the bad game. This one he looked confused and unsure. The team as a whole probably should burn the tape on this one. We are going to need homecourt to get out of the first round as of now. Sign Ivan Johnson, Kwame Brown and get Barnes starting could be the change up the team needs.

Agent0
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Like this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30MIA.html

Can't get too worried unless it becomes a consistent thing.

Voyeur
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Y'know the folks at Clipperblog said it and it's true. JJ and Matt are easily our best perimeter defenders (who thought that would be the case with JJ?). Killed by 3's tonight. But that shouldn't stop us from playing harder on defense. Offensively, it looks like Blake and Paul showed up (correct me if I'm wrong as I could only see the box score). Wings still struggled, apparently? What are we going to do about this?

pageC4
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Chris Paul is 6'

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2779/chris-paul

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_paul/

CP3Heliflopter
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Depends if you are talking about with shoes or not regardless I have no clue how or why this is important. 5'11 or 6'0 the difference is minimal. You still have to work harder to score compared to wing players.

pageC4
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Yup, my wife and I are season ticket holders. We are always amazed at how much of a hustler JJ is on the defensive end these days. Sometimes he will let the adrenaline get the best of him and foul though, but its a good sign because it shows he is committed to defense and wants to be more than just a 3 point shooter.

CP3Heliflopter
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JJ is a smart defender and puts in the effort even though he is a bit limited athletically. However, this says more about how bad our other perimeter defenders are than how good JJ and Matt are defensively. Both of them are averagish defenders. Matt might be above average maybe.

Really wish we got Ariza since he is a very good wing defender + he has improved his 3 point shooting.

pageC4
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Is Ivan the one playing overseas or is that Shavlik Randolph? I can't remember. Anyway, those are some cheap alternatives for us right now. Although I can only hope the pool gets bigger. What I would love to see is Okafor get healthy and fall into our laps. That would be sick to have him and DJ rotate at the Center position, or even try having them both on the court at the same time for limited moments for defensive stops that would be interesting

Icecoldclipper
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Repped High Quality Post

You saying Chris Paul is not an elite scorer? I just said as well Paul should just be more aggressive its not that difficult not be Durant but selfish when needed. Guys like Parker, Lillard, Rose and Westbrook are scoring guards and Chris Paul is a better than those guys as a scoring threat and more capable of getting shots off in so many different ways its the reason he is the league best PG. Trying to use 5'11 as an excuse is weak so please stop he has already proven to be an elite shot creater and shooter. All that was said is to take it up to a more aggressive level with the struggles and injuries on the team which any team would ask of star player. Also yes as a facilitator I not mind if he played more selfish ON THE ROAD WITH THE INJURIES AND STRUGGLES.

Voyeur
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Not to pile on with DJ but the problem I have had with him (and it appears this season will be no different) is no matter how many blocks he somehow ends up with in the box score, NOBODY is intimidated by going to the basket on this guy. Anybody can post him one on one and he's just not a strong presence guarding the rim. Look at how much havoc Hibbert wreaked with his presence for Indiana. The intimidation factor of the centers of old...Hakeem, Patrick, Alonzo. Those guys were great shot blockers to be sure, but they intimidated shots by just BEING THERE at the rim challenging shots. I just have a feeling Doc is going to come to a sad reality about just how much DJ can really do.

I must give respect, however, to DJ's rebounding. He really has stepped up in that department.

Agent0
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I would argue that it is a bad sign for this team if they are saying that Paul should be scoring similar to a Durant while leading the league in assists. That's the sign of a bad supporting cast, an unbalanced team and a team that might not be primed for playoff success.

If your team needs that to win, then there's a problem somewhere. Great teams can win in multiple ways. Even if you are a team that wins mainly on offense, you should be able to win in multiple ways on offense. The best is to be able to win with offense, with defense, and in those avenues, with shooting, with inside play, with spread out scoring, etc, and on defense by forcing turnovers, limiting FG%, denying the 3PT line, etc, etc.

Icecoldclipper
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Okay rely on may not be the word but it helped with Paul looking to get his team going first before he got his own. Same thing with JJ when the offense was flowing at high levels. JJ would have like a league best 1st quarters or half Blake would do work in middle of games with some here and there from Paul and then Paul would finish and be aggressive in the 4th. I just want Paul and Griffin to continue until more help comes back to assert their dominance on offense with the defense struggling.

pageC4
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I always feared that DJ's offense would come back down to his career average. It seems to be the case with DJ to always start off hot then come down offensively. Defensively he has always had the problem of going for blocked shots while sometimes letting basic defensive fundamentals go out the window, and other players see this as well which is why they don't fear him like they do other centers.

Although you do raise a good point in that his rebounding has been amazing this year, which basically somewhat makes up for the lapses on the other areas we talked about.

Agent0
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Yea, it did, the perfect balance of when to shoot, when to pass (edit*) is hard. Also we usually decide whether the player made the right decision based on hindsight.

I think there's some adjustment time needed with the injuries. We really can't be too worried about this teams offense though, they are playing good offense overall, and have to 3 years. They have even had good playoff offense in 2/3 series' despite different obstacles. We need to keep worrying about the defense, especially after giving up 50%+ FG and 50%+ 3PT to a team.

The difference between the Clippers and the other teams people talk about in the upper echelon is that the Clippers are the worst defense of all (and the team is up to like 15th or 16th in Drtg now too). Still, a far cry from being top 5.

You're most capable when you can win in multiple ways.

Voyeur
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Um, should we just go ahead and start Jamal until JJ gets back? I get it. I know he's our spark off the bench. I will forever be a proponent of Crawford coming off the bench otherwise. However, my confidence in Willie is shaken big time right now.

Icecoldclipper
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That is the team we have right now. lol I'm not saying even do it the entire year but come on people Dudley is struggling, Green is cold, Jordan will give you limited points and Griffin is more in a jump shooting mold now. I look at it is adapting to the team needs. We need Griffin and Paul to put up 20+ shot attempts until we find our grove and get some players back from injury.

We are on a long road trip you have to find ways to get a W and get the long term things figured out later.

On nights when none of those things are working defense, 3pt, and etc you got to tell the stars to just keep going until something clicks. The stars are the ones you want taking the shots how come we can ask it of Crawford but its wrong to ask Chris Paul and Griffin? I understand Griffin is not the natural scorer as Crawford but just keep feeding him and if we fail we let our stars pull out all the stops.

Agent0
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Does it change anything? Jamal played 30 minutes tonight for example. Just means that the bench doesn't have Jamal and instead has Willie with them. Not sure if that will be the best.

The starters are still playing a decent amount with him.

Voyeur
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Not sure. Maybe we start off hot. If we have a good start, it could make a difference overall. Maybe it's just a spark. Who knows? Just throwing it out there.

Also, do we think this rotation defense stuff is working? Should we try man to man instead? I'm just asking legit questions because I truly don't know.

Agent0
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The defense is a man to man defense, it's really just about the help principles out of the man to man. A straight up man to man defense without help principles would get picked apart in the NBA though.

Agent0
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Yea, it might be needed, I think we just take it game by game, adjust to what the defense gives and play good basketball on offense.

Also. I shouldn't really comment conclusively on the defense because of one game, they had been on a rise over the past couple of games. Up from almost last after the first 5 or so to an average defense now.

Icecoldclipper
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I think the intimidation part is there and strong. I have seen many times this season Jordan run a player off his shot or force a player to make a pass while going up for the shot. Seen altered shots and well contested (they still go in see Cousins) but a big problem is the second part of what I was saying he will run them off the shot and they make the pass. Someone has to help the helper, I Paul or Dudley yell "DJ help" and he comes over someone has to pick up the big or its a basic drive and kick.

The biggest worry I have for Jordan on help defense is on the pick and roll. He simply is not getting back fast enough consistently and he should never look to trap. I can nervous as hell when Jordan sags off his man to try to keep the perimeter player honest of the lane. It only leads to a player getting beat off the dribble and him coming over and then making a pass with no help. Better yet he rotates and if he gets there in time to not only alter but block the shot the defense stops the teams gets the ball back and get a wide open jumper. Overall team defense needs to improve.

Doc needs to call Lionell Hollins or someone because the team is starting to get worse before better.

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