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Clippersfan86
3 Post Subject: I'm Beginning To Think Vinny Wasn't The Problem Post ID: 420650by Clippersfan86 » Dec 12, 2013 - 09:58 PM PST
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As one of the biggest Vinny haters this is a really tough pill to swallow. We got a top 3 coaching staff and you can hear/see they are doing a great job. Problem is we are seeing the same team filled with divas, lacking heart and IQ. I thought a coaching change would fix it, now I really see that the players are/were the issue.

Sure we have key guys out... but our "Big 3" is healthy and we have ZERO freakibg excuse to consistently get owned by lotto teams. This is a very depressing realization for me. Barkley was right all along. Team toughness of a flea.



                
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Agent0
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420672by Agent0 » Dec 12, 2013 - 10:17 PM PST
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Roster still has holes, there have been a lot of injuries, and really we should have anticipated growing pains. The expectations of how the team should start might not have been realistic. I know the losses against certain teams gets on people, though Brooklyn is not the best example since their roster was at it's max tonight, and they have won 3 in a row now.

Toughness won't win games if you don't make shots and if you aren't good. Honestly, things like toughness can be overrated. You don't want to be "soft", but toughness doesn't win games. Be good before you are tough.

Portland for example isn't winning on toughness, they are winning on 3PT shooting and LaMarcus shooting mid-range jumpshots for example. But since they are winning, they must be tough, right?

Sure they could have all played tough, but if everyone but Paul shoots like 4/20 from 3PT range, toughness wasn't going to win the game. Reggie Evans wasn't going to rebound his way into making up for missing 17 FT's and shooting 4/20 3PT or whatever Crawford, Dudley, Green, Jamison, Jackson and Collison combined for.

                
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jarca
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420673by jarca » Dec 12, 2013 - 10:26 PM PST
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I told you guys get a GM. We haven't made a good move since we turned Brian Cook into Nick mutha pooka Young

                
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Phu7
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420677by Phu7 » Dec 12, 2013 - 10:33 PM PST
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Vinny was a part of the problem. We didn't have the movement that we have this season. With Vinny, there was just too much standing around and give it to CP3 and Jamal to create. I still see a bit of the same thing this season when Jamal is out there with the 2nd unit. Players are more of a problem this season than last season.

Dudley is a big problem. He's a shooter, we got him to play defense and hit shots and he's not doing either of them well plus he's a horrible passer and he can't create plays. He shoots 32% from 3s. This might be bad if he was taking Jamal Crawford like attempts (off balance, off the dribble, last second to beat the shot clock) but NO....the majority of Dudley's 84 attempts from deep have been absolutely wide open, squared up, and he still shoots only 32%.

DJ was and is a part of the problem. It's going to be really tough to win in the playoffs with hack a DJ. That is why Lamar played down the stretch last season. Lamar was just the better overall player. I think Vinny was right to play DJ at 25 minutes a game. This season DJ is playing 35 and he looks tired in the 2nd half of games and has his mental breakdowns. The problem is that we don't have Lamar, we have a pick your poison Ryan Hollins or Byron Mullens to choose from. I love that DJ has learned how to use his height and tap those offensive boards out instead of grabbing them. DJ is still DJ, a split second slow at a lot of things and that split second makes a big difference.

The bright side is the schedule. This 7 game road trip looks like a trip that we usually take in February so we get it out of the way early. We have a lot of home games in the 2nd half of the season and that reminds me of how the Nuggets started really slow last season and climbed to take the 3rd seed. We also have a very favorable April schedule which should really help going into the playoffs.

                
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clipperboy24
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420690by clipperboy24 » Dec 12, 2013 - 11:00 PM PST
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Vinny was a big problem just not the only problem. Now our defense is getting better but we got hit with a lot of injuries all at once and we are relying almost exclusively on jump shots which is not efficient enough

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420702by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 12:24 AM PST
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When you bank your entire offense on one guy's off ball talents, and that guy is injured. You struggle. Seems to me we should go down low to Blake OR DeAndre. I don't give a damn who. But as long as we have to put up with spot up shooters, we need our Bigs posting down low and dishing back out. At least until our off ball dude gets back.

                
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TheCalmInsanity
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420703by TheCalmInsanity » Dec 13, 2013 - 12:33 AM PST
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The Clippers started the year playing amazing offense with horrible defense.. Now they switched it to amazing defense with horrible offense. I don't know if the defense is tiring them out to the point where they're going like 2/16 from three, but they need to find a balance.

                
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clippermitch
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420709by clippermitch » Dec 13, 2013 - 01:35 AM PST
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Depth is the issue. Last year's team was a lot better, deeper and more athletic. Factor in injuries, this year's team has a lot of holes.

There's a reason why CP and Blake played in the low 30s minutes-wise last year and the are up to high 30s and sometimes into the 40s. The bench is horrendous!

4th quarter is CP3 time but not when he has to carry the load and play big minutes.

When the team hired Doc, I was really hoping to see what he can do with that same roster. Instead, they traded Bledsoe for Dudley and Caron for Redick. Personally, I thought they could have a better deal with Orlando. Something like Afflalo, one of their bigs (Nicholson), and a future pick or an athletic wing like Harkless.

Redick has been really good for us but the lack of depth is killing us. How is Willie our starter again? How is Mullens and Hollins our only bigs off the bench and both are below average at best? How do we have a 3rd PG on the roster that is prob out for the season?

Our "GM" did a piss poor job filling the roster out.

Luckily all of the players are on one year deals so they can be replaced next year.

                
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ClipsGForce
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420711by ClipsGForce » Dec 13, 2013 - 02:20 AM PST
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Should we have a "Please come back Vinny!" thread?

                
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AirGriffin
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420712by AirGriffin » Dec 13, 2013 - 02:29 AM PST
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this forum is so ridiculous.....I swear a lot of members have been so quick to bash, want change, and just blame, blame blame lately.

Fact of the matter is we just didn't show up to play tonight against the nets, 3 of our f*kkin wings are injured and we have no backup bigs. and not enough time has went by to "master" Docs system. Damn like does anyone not see how we are missing our starter in Redick that gave us 17 PPG? And 2 really solid backup wings in Barnes and Bullock?

Why is it every time I come to this forum to discuss and hear what the clippers can do better it's always what they need to REPLACE or BASH to make us play better.

DJ has been a thousand times improved this season, we have much better ball movement, Blake needs to find his way in Docs system more consistently (he's still playing really well), CP3 has been playing great, and Redick is a much better wing than Billups and Butler. AND we have DOC RIVERS! Why are there so many complaints? If these problems we're having anywhere close to being evident as they are come playoff time, then we should bitch and moan but I don't see the need in always bashing this team and always people giving up faith and start saying "trade so and so" like damn there is no loyalty and trust and it's so disappointing.

                
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Amnesty_David_Stern
Post ID: 420713by Amnesty_David_Stern » Dec 13, 2013 - 02:43 AM PST
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We have no defense. That's the price you pay when you trade away a giant defensive spark and amazing player in Bledsoe for Redick and Dudley.

I loved the Redick part of the deal but Dudley is garbage. When he's not a top scoring option his play goes down a whole helluva lot. We should have kept Bledsoe and just started him next to CP3 and tried to work out some sort of deal to keep him here but we didn't.

Even tho he's undersized, he's a dynamo in many aspects of the game, especially offense which is something the staff seemed to overlook.

This is why I pray we take a good long look at Emeka Okafor if he gets bought out, which I think he will. He'll be returning soon and would be one of the best signings we've had in years if we can lure him here.

Mullens, Hollins and Jamison are trash compared to Okafor's ability to defend the paint and honestly, score better than any of those 3. He hits a high % of his shots and would be a great anchor on that 2nd unit with Crawford and Barnes.

                
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kjavis
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420714by kjavis » Dec 13, 2013 - 02:53 AM PST
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Vinny wasn't bad, but he wasn't great either especially in the PO, that's why we got doc, problem is this season we lost some good players and picked up some bad ones, IMO the biggest screw up is not getting a good wing player for Bledsoe knowing that has been a black hole for this team the last 2-3 seasons. JJ is alright but he is no mayo or derozan type of scorer.

                
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Dunkathon
Post ID: 420715by Dunkathon » Dec 13, 2013 - 03:07 AM PST
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Pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say. I'm pretty sure no one here would rather take Vinnie over Doc Rivers.

Clippersfan86, I'm sure you don't mean to do this, but you're pulling a "Skip Bayless" right now. That is, taking a problem with many causes (in this case, the Clippers struggling) and simplifying it down to a catchy soundbite (in this case, "lack of toughness").

I do think that the team does let bad calls and whatnot get to their head too easy, but to say the team's current struggles are all due to a "lack of toughness" doesn't really get to the heart of why we're struggling right now.

Our issues are fourfold:

  1. Injuries. Dudley, Bullock, Reddick and Barnes. Covered thoroughly.

  2. Learning new defensive and offensive systems. We've definitely improved from the Vinnie ball days defensively, but we're still making tons of mistakes. Lost count tonight of how many times DJ fell for Andre Blatche's pump fakes, not to mention failing to box out Brook Lopez.

These should hopefully come in time, especially once we start getting injured players back. If not, we can start making a crate for DJ while we figure out where to ship him in the post-season.

  1. Lack of depth at key positions. Still need a backup center that has a last name that doesn't rhyme with Cullen.

Small Forwards: Stephen Jackson is only a bandaid until Barnes/Bullock can finally get healthy enough to play. Happy to see Dudley has taken responsibility for his poor play, and I hope he works on bettering himself. That being said, once either Barnes or Bullock gets healthy, bench him so he can get the rest he needs for his knees.

Shooting Guard: I honestly don't know why Willie Green has regressed like he has. Lack of playing time? Just going through a bad streak? Who the heck knows. For now, I say we don't panic and see if he improves or not.

Power Forward: Probably our best position depth-wise right now. Griffin is, well, Griffin. Meanwhile, Jamison is a decent backup. No problems here really.

Point Guard: CP3 is great and all, but it feels like Darren Collison should be distributing a bit more. As is, he feels like a shooting guard. Too often, I've seen him just pulling up in the paint for contested jumpers. Either drive to the hoop, take a three, or get the ball to an open teammate.

  1. Jump shooting. This isn't me saying to not take open shots. When you get open shots, take them. What I am going to say though is that we need to take less contested jumpers, and drive to the hoop more. At least then you can get fouled and eventually start shooting free throws.

On that note, it disturbs me how much we rely on Crawford isos for our offense now. I know Reddick is injured and all, but that doesn't mean we stop all ball movement in favor of four guys watching Crawford make the defense look stupid.

As for trades and whatnot, it's best to wait until the deadline is much closer than it currently is. Closer the deadline comes, the closer we'll have desperate teams willing to make the sort of trades that will benefit the Clippers. It does no good to be one of those desperate teams. At the very least, we can't make it clear that we're desperate.

None of these problems can be fixed in the near future, let alone by Saturday. Mental toughness will take time to build. Injuries will take time to heal. Defensive and offensive systems will need time to be learned and lessons will need time to be learned. Even trades will have to wait until the time is right.

Sucks that the Clippers are sucking right now, but we need to take a step back, do less of mad , practice some patience, and remember that we still have 60 or so games left until the playoffs. After all, I think we could all use some additional mental toughness.

                
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toohipcliptoslip
Post ID: 420718by toohipcliptoslip » Dec 13, 2013 - 04:30 AM PST
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Too hip 3:16 You get points by putting the ball in the hoop. Too hip 3:17 The closer you are to the hoop the easier it is to put it in.

In this whole trip our downfall is shots not falling. We are jacking up threes a la Baron Davis (He's at all the Clip games and wants to play guys). Every time Blake got the ball he got fouled. We then shot threes. Nothing else (a bit of hyperbole- the value of which is always a bit overstated). Before this game I calculated the percentage of threes made. I'm not sure but I think it was around 30%. There is no interior movement. We can't blame it on JJ's absence or anybody elseses Every team plays with injuries. The Lakers are winning with scrubs. We do not have a Klay Curry so we can't depend on threes.

We have deficiencies in the roster not necessarily holes. The Bledsoe trade was a good idea but we do need someone like him. Where would we play him? Bench SG oops - that's Crawford. Starting SG? Maybe back up PG but I'd rather have Reddick. Collison ain't bad but he's not being spectacular. They shut Blake down tonight and except Jamal we only have shooters.

Defense be bug*ered. That's notThis team should be scoring 105 + per game. Our defense is holding teams down to a reasonable level. Philly 94, Boston 95, Nets 93, Cav 88, OKC 91

How many plays are Jamal bail outs? I watched Houston/Portland. They played inside out. The contrast was as obvious as Barkley's obnoxiousness. It's not that we're soft. 3:17. The closer you are the easier it is. It's not that Dudley is playing poorly, it's that he's not what we need.

One can make a reasonable argument why we shouldn't have DJ try to score but the lack of a center or SF who can be an inside threat is killing us. Jackson is a waste of a roster space.

THIS IS NOT A NEGATIVE CRITICISM OF DJ but wouldn't we be better with Brook Lopez or sacrilege - Pau?

                
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Silasie
Post ID: 420720by Silasie » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:34 AM PST
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I think you make some great points and certainly help put things in perspective for me.

But I think its not only this forum or theses fans that react like they have. From my experience of team forums they are all like this. Things go bad for the team people over react want a trade get very negative etc. It is partly as result of a quick fix throw away culture and partly just plain natural venting. Our wives/girlfriends don't want to hear us b*tching about our team so you are bound to get some of this cos this is our place to rant.

                
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ArtMaggot
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420723by ArtMaggot » Dec 13, 2013 - 08:44 AM PST
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I loved my Clippers during the dark decades and I love them now, Go Clippers!

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420724by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:18 AM PST
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Mayo? Really? You wanted another ISO guy? Who, by the way isn't even putting up numbers Redick was before the injury. And isn't anywhere NEAR as consistent as Redick. Not to mention Mayo isn't the type of off the ball guy Doc was looking for in his offense. Doc knew our half court offense needed ball movement and some sort of flow. A guy like Redick makes that happen more than a guy like Mayo.

Seems to me that we got a great player this off season and am a little surprised there's still a few people who don't see that.

                
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pageC4
Post Subject: Re: I'm Beginning To Think Vinny Wasn't The Problem Post ID: 420726by pageC4 » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:20 AM PST
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I have thought about this a lot. Vinny was a part of the problem; he just wasn't the sole problem. Changing the coach was going to solve some problems, but not all. And you have to consider that when we brought in new players we also opened the door for some of these players to not fit well or simply not work at all. We have seen this before, even from Players who were coming off of great years on other teams (such as Baron Davis). Sometimes new players work, sometimes they don't. The coaching change brought many aspects we didn't have before. With Doc we bring in a coach that has reached the finals twice and won one of them. That in itself will be ultimately useful if we ever reach the finals because Doc understands the pressures and challenges that they will present. If we did reach the finals with Vinny it would be a big mystery if he could do the same and overcome those same obstacles. You also see many changes immediately from the start of this new coaching regime. For one, Doc grounds the players. The famous "Doc told me I was nothing" quote from Chris Paul already established a new culture where ego and superstar personas would be quelled. Also, taking the group to San Diego to practice took them away from distractions and served to establish rapport between the players. As I watch Doc I can see numerous improvements over Vinny's coaching. One small example: when other teams go on an 6-0 run Doc will call a time out, Vinny would let the unanswered streak continue much longer. There are numerous changes that Doc has brought that I agree with. When you bring in personnel to a team you go out and try and find the best available person. I feel with did that with Doc, just about all sports writers also echoed this sentiment. In fact, the choice to go with Doc was even so resounding that Chris Paul abandoned his rumored pairing with Dwight to play ball for one of the best coaches in the league and one of the best coaches period. However, none of that changes the fact that so far we are 15-9 and continue to plummet in the standings. It goes to show that coahing alone won't change everything. Coaching changes are just piece of the puzzle, and I can say that this mediocre start isn't all on Doc. If I was to rewind to summer of last year I make the same decision. I ride with Doc

                
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worm
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420727by worm » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:23 AM PST
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The big problem comes from DJ and Blake,defensively they are struggling if they are facing elite players and blake should focus more on post up play offensively because this is the place that he is very good to score more.Focus of offensive play should be more on blake,we are becoming more of a jump shooting team.

                
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FightOnRon
Post ID: 420730by FightOnRon » Dec 13, 2013 - 09:34 AM PST
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Me too,but i didn't think the dark times would be starting over again so quickly.

Of course we are whining about a team that has been sitting on top of our division for most of the season so far,but we all though we would be number one all year. we know they could be a lot better (and i miss Caron too).

But something just isn't right and numbers don't really show what the eyeball test does.

                
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wessleejr
Post ID: 420733by wessleejr » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:12 AM PST
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One thing I don't like Blake is if he gets a rebound he is sometimes act as a point until he lost the ball. Sad

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420734by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:18 AM PST
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I don't recall him losing the ball while running the break last night. Frankly, I like it when he takes the ball down the court. Usually something good comes of it.

                
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Akclipps
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420735by Akclipps » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:27 AM PST
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Yeah blake would grab the board and start dribbling and try to do a behind a back dribble then lose it and other team score rite away instead of them getting an easy basket. suppose to add momentum for us to have runs but it kills it. He did it in Boston and Nets game. Just pass it to cp and run to get a lob or a lay up

                
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23efren23
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420736by 23efren23 » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:33 AM PST
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We need trade blake griffin and dj Dudley we can start by trading Somehow for granger if not for deng even if we have to give up more than we want to

                
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clipper*joe
Post ID: 420737by clipper*joe » Dec 13, 2013 - 10:44 AM PST
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Granger? The same guy who hasn't been able to stay healthy the last few seasons? On top of that, give up more than we have to, to get him? Over pay for Deng who will be a FA next season? I'd hold off on shaking up the team like that for now...

                
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ClipperB23
Post ID: 420742by ClipperB23 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:16 AM PST
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Smh. roll

                
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cleepers
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420743by cleepers » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:18 AM PST
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Vinny got a bum rap. When the team played hard, they won. When they didn't, they lost... same as it ever was.

But seriously, the players' body language when facing adversity seems worse right now than I've ever seen it.

                
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botev1921
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420744by botev1921 » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:21 AM PST
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Basically we are paying for giving a mediocre center 10+ millions with lack of depth and quality. There are more serviceable centers out there for 3 to 6 mil. less than DJ and let's be honest his improvement so far this season is not a game changer. We lack a consistent third option on offense and the bench is now short on any sort of scoring punch outside of Crawford. With JJ and Barnes healthy we will look better, but again won't be a real championship contender. We have no championship-worthy front court. Jamison, Hollins and Mullens are worse bench big guys than most lottery teams have. Last but not least, Dudley has been terrible and worse than Butler. Basically we lost Bledsoe to get Redick and while he is good, he is just not that missing component.

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420745by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:24 AM PST
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Vinny made some huge critical errors I've pointed out numerous times already. It was time for him to go. We just have to adjust to the new coach and his style. To be frank, we are playing like a team missing important players on a long road trip.

                
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Icecoldclipper
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420746by Icecoldclipper » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:25 AM PST
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Still waiting for a consistent adjustment from Doc to stop chucking long balls. It's been obvious we don't have the shooters and when the game is tight make everyone put the ball on the floor and attack. I don't care if someone is wide open, if you are open take control and get to the rim and draw a foul, convert, or look for the bigs and toss a pass. This team is chucking even when the game is still winnable with basic execution on offense.

Doc also has to keep one of Paul or Griffin on the floor at all times. With the injuries how hard is that to do when he already has Blake coming out first some of the time. With the second unit Doc needs to demand the ball run through Blake looking for his and using the other players to get him open.

                
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FightOnRon
Post ID: 420747by FightOnRon » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:33 AM PST
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Um,how about,no.

                
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FightOnRon
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420748by FightOnRon » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:34 AM PST
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PS: But if something better for DJ came along i wouldn't cry

                
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clipper*joe
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420749by clipper*joe » Dec 13, 2013 - 11:43 AM PST
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DJ just made the top 5 on this week's, Shaqtin' A Fool. Congrats DJ!

                
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Clippersfan86
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420755by Clippersfan86 » Dec 13, 2013 - 02:27 PM PST
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I should elaborate on where I stand so it's more clear.

  1. Doc and is staff ARE a big upgrade and it was the right move, I'd make over again without hesitation.

  2. My main point is that the players attitudes and demeanors are FAR worse than I had previously suspected. I thought maybe having a no nonsense coach like Doc would immediately whip it into shape. Now I realize the problems and weaknesses of the team run much deeper and I doubt ANY coach could correct it. It needs to come from within and until it does.. we aren't getting anywhere.

  3. The only reason I'm using Vinny as the example/title is because I attributed most of our issues to him and maybe I overstated it. That being said he was still a mediocre coach no doubt.

                
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pageC4
Post ID: 420756by pageC4 » Dec 13, 2013 - 03:35 PM PST
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definitely clears things up Smile

                
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Jerediscool
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420762by Jerediscool » Dec 13, 2013 - 04:21 PM PST
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Why does everyone bitch so much? Our team is soooo vastly different than last year and everyone should have expected to hit some hiccups. New system, new players, new mentality. It takes time. Stop crying about going back to the dark times or how we are terrible and need to trade Blake. Clippers nation has turned into spoiled cry babies lately

                
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Amnesty_David_Stern
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420767by Amnesty_David_Stern » Dec 13, 2013 - 04:37 PM PST
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As for this forum being ridiculous because people are so quick to judge, this is what happens in sports and hell, even when actors change in movies or TV Shows, or some guy has to step in for a band member who dies or gets sick during a tour.

We are playing bum defense right now, plain and simple. Sure, Blake and DJ are getting boards and Cp3 is getting steals, but our 2nd unit looks awful out there, ESP against Brooklyn last night. We judge because were fans and we want our team to be the best. I've got no doubt in my mind that the team will play better as the year goes on. Our core players of Cp3, DJ, Blake and even Crawford have been together for a few seasons now, their skills and overall mesh with each other will help our team out in the long run. Teams like Phoenix, Portland and others who are playing a lot better than expected aren't top contenders in the West or the NBA. They may make the playoffs, but at some point the teams that aren't as good as ours, San Antonios, OKC etc will start to fall, we won't.

This is why we are a contender and these other teams are pretenders. The West to me, is a 3 team race and perhaps a 4 team race if Houston really turns on the jets. OKC, LAC, SA and HOU are the teams others will fear and have to take out. I can't see Golden State really getting past round 2 in the playoffs if they square up against one of the teams I listed.

Be confident, the West is an amazing conference and we won't have records similar to Indiana or Miami because we don't play sub .500 teams almost nightly in our own conference. I will say this though, Doc better teach these guys some sort of scheme to fix this atrocious defense and fast because were edging closer to the halfway point and times are getting dire.

                
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jarca
Post ID: 420780by jarca » Dec 13, 2013 - 05:52 PM PST
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Now do you see why I complained so much about the Bledsoe deal. We traded our game changer for role players. Stat boys love the trade but let's be honest, we lost because of our defense not our offense

                
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Voyeur
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420784by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 05:59 PM PST
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I'm pretty sure we lost because of both our offense and defense. Nobody was hitting from the outside. Our offense was stagnant and predictable. We've addressed that issue, but injuries have taken it's toll. Defensively we've actually gotten better.

                
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FightOnRon
Post ID: 420785by FightOnRon » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:12 PM PST
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But wasn't the Bledsoe deal more of an economic problem then a player problem? I recall we all knew he was going because he wanted to be a starter and get starter money.

                
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jarca
Post ID: 420787by jarca » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:15 PM PST
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Toney Allen went nuts because Billups was too short/ weak. I don't have to go into the horrible ISO defense on Zbo and Gasol

                
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ClipsGForce
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420788by ClipsGForce » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:15 PM PST
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Most people here are pushing the panic buttons way too often. I don't even know if most of you guys were here during the time we have Baron Davis. The thing about this team this types of mistakes and losses are suppose to happen. You learn your mistake when you lose. Docs are forcing good habits in them, being that championship caliber team, not that 2nd round wander. Doc and the coaching staff knows what to do.

To adjust to Doc system does not happen overnight. It take times. There is no such thing as quick fix. Even Miami Heat team have to take a year to adjust to finally be that championship caliber team. Instead of being outrageous, be rational.

One last thing,

Stop creating trade scenario involving our core player for someone who "used to be " good. Also, stop trading for ex-Lakers like "luke Walton" and "Derek Fisher". My God, what are you people thinking?

                
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jarca
Post ID: 420789by jarca » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:17 PM PST
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Trading Bledsoe was inevitable but we couldn't even get a package with at least 1 defensive player

                
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ClipsGForce
Post ID: 420790by ClipsGForce » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:17 PM PST
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Get out of here! That is such a terrible idea.

                
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Voyeur
Post ID: 420796by Voyeur » Dec 13, 2013 - 06:54 PM PST
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You should have more faith in who we do have (when healthy) instead of who you'd rather have from the trade.

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420802by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:35 PM PST
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No, no, it is because Billups just sucked, and Vinny didn't have the guts to start Bledsoe. I know I keep saying it, and I won't let it go because I really wanted to see Bledsoe start alongside Paul or get 30+ MPG on this team, and that's with the idea of him being a 15-16 pts / 5rebs / 5 assist guy. Well in about 30 minutes, maybe like 13-14 / 4 / /4.

Okay, I'll stop ranting about that for a while.

23efren23 must be a Bulls or Pacers fan Wink

With that said, why are people so crazy? At the first sign of things not going super smoothly, and they aren't even going poorly, people are getting ready to jump out the windows.

I guess it is part of our instant gratification culture that extends to things like this. Team is not perfect, but panic mode is what the bad teams and GM's do. Eg: Otis Smith, change the core players every year.

The smart GM's keep their core guys and keep building and adjusting around them, eg, Dallas and San Antonio, and even Portland who has Ben successful this season has done that.

Here was San Antonio's playoff success before last season: 08-09: 54-28 lost first round 4-1 to 50-32 Mavericks 09-10: 50-32 lost second round 4-0 to 54-28 Suns 10-11: 61-21 lost first round 4-2 to 46-36 Grizzlies 11-12: 50-16 lost conference finals 4-2 to 47-19 Thunder

Some people here would have drastically revamped the roster after 09-10 and they wouldn't likely have their 7 games final series with the Heat. Of course in hindsight they will say "no way, why would you do that". The reality though is that what was said by some fans during that time doesn't support that they would keep the team.The Clippers with Doc haven't even played half a season and the panic button is being banged on.

Unless you have the league's best player on a good team, you just aren't likely going to consistently be getting to the finals. It took years for some teams. How do we as fans of what was in the last 10 years a consistent lottery team start getting impatient and acting entitled?

                
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Agent0
Post ID: 420805by Agent0 » Dec 13, 2013 - 07:41 PM PST
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jarca wrote:
Now do you see why I complained so much about the Bledsoe deal. We traded our game changer for role players. Stat boys love the trade but let's be honest, we lost because of our defense not our offense
This isn't even true. "Stat boys" said that Bledose and Paul were devastating on the court together and that Bledsoe's per minute production was quite good, especially before he got injured. They said that his scoring efficiency had drastically improved and that the team should play him and Paul together because Bledsoe isn't truly any different in size from an Eric Gordon, Ben Gordon, J.J. Redick, O.J. Mayo etc. That's what both watching the game, but seemingly more so the "stats" said.

Problem is that Bledsoe couldn't be a game changer if the coach wasn't going to play him big minutes. You can only affect a game as much as your minutes, and Doc clearly wasn't going to play him at the 2 since he's the one that traded him.

jarca wrote:
Trading Bledsoe was inevitable but we couldn't even get a package with at least 1 defensive player
There was that mid-level exception still available after trading Bledsoe, so what happened to that? Matte Barnes and Collison, a lot of people liked it, I didn't, not because they are bad, but still, Barnes hasn't been healthy, so I can't conclusively judge how much it can help winning unless he's supposed to be out all year, which he isn't.

Bledsoe's value wasn't as high as it could have been because people didn't believe the "stat boys" about his rate of production when on the floor and the things that supported his positive impact. "But he can't shoot and he is wild and turns the ball over, and he's not a "true" PG". Well, that means you don't get the greatest value for a 20 MPG player because "how do we know he can actually play 30+ minutes and produce", and "he just plays against bench guys", and what in the world is RAPM?

Health in April is what will be important, not health in December, though of course it helps.

Remember the cries of "defense on the bench doesn't matter, it is about scoring". Well balance on the bench matters, bench players that compliment your starters best matters, there's no one thing that a bench needs, it is team dependent.

This is what is here, there will be growing pains, and the supporting cast will need tweaks. Just shuffling everything at any sign of trouble is terrible.

                
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kjavis
Post ID: 420848by kjavis » Dec 14, 2013 - 02:52 AM PST
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Anyone see today's game between suns n kings, ebled was beastn with da monster block on cousins, he's definitely playing at an all star level leading a pack of no names, we sure got punked on that trade

                
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toohipcliptoslip
Post ID: 420849by toohipcliptoslip » Dec 14, 2013 - 03:24 AM PST
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Finally coming to my senses we need Bledsoe to start at SG. Question is as a RFA what would he cost? If he started with Paul he would stay.

JJ+Dudley= $10.5 mill. If he monsters out Eric will get $10 mill easy. More like $12. Even if Dudley were playing well he should go. I wish he were playing well so we could get a better player. A SF could create and get to the hoop is what we need to fill the hole. Not a putdown to Dudley.

All we have are good but not great shooters except JC and JJ. Our D isn't that bad when we hold opponents to less than 100 pts. Our offense is bad when we score less than 100 pts. It's stagnant and predictable.

Maybe the problem with the shooters is attitude.

                
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jarca
Post Subject: RE: I Post ID: 420862by jarca » Dec 14, 2013 - 11:00 AM PST
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Agent, I agree with you that Bledsoe should have been on the court more. That's not why I'm complaining. I initially complained because I thought the Bledsoe and Caron wasn't a great trade for tus. Meanwhile stat boys try to justify that it was a great trade by using advance stats. Someone actually tried to use advance stats to try and tell me that Dudley is a good defender. Tell me if you watch Dudley play without using advance stats, does he strike you as a good defender?

                
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