Clippers Vs. Wizards Official Game Thread 2013-12-14 (P. 3)

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gman
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Why Vinny benched DJ?

Agent0
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All Washington did is get themselves over the limit with no DJ on the floor

gman
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Welcome back CP. Where have you been the last couple of weeks?

Agent0
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That was a tough one by CP

JahvonTheClip
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Wizards are dumb for that lol, Chris Paul's rip over for the win

jarca
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Hoping CP3 will have a similar game on. Monday against the spurs

FightOnRon
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CP3 En Fuego

gman
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Heat Check for mr. Paul.

Agent0
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Okay, now CP is just toying around

Icecoldclipper
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lol Paul got heat check greedy.

pedroskinny
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Man Mullens is so trash..

Icecoldclipper
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kind of hope he saved a game like this for SAS but he can have games like this often. He is a master of getting his shot off and creating space.

CP3Heliflopter
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He is our human victory cigar.

CapsNClips
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Was I right?....Or was I right?

WinningBasket
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Wow, great win! Their plane ride home is going to be sweet, lol.

CP3Heliflopter
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Wall is not even close to the 2nd best PG in the league. Best in the East sure but that is only because the East sucks. I take Curry, WB, Parker handily over him and a quite a few others are debatable.

He isn't an efficient scorer and has no jump shot to speak of along. A team that has him dominating the ball that much won't be successful. He isn't good enough as a scorer or as a playmaker.

Jerediscool
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Kyrie is the best in the east, don't even pretend wall is up there. Wall isn't even top 10 in the league

CP3Heliflopter
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Its debatable. Regardless neither of them is even top 5 in my book. Kyrie is a mediocre playmaker at best, a putrid defender and the Cavs do just about as good with him injured than when he is healthy. Also right now even with his statpadding games against the horrendous Knicks and Magic he still has mediocre stats.

He is shooting 41% and 32% from 3. He isn't even shooting 80% from the line and he is boasting a terrible 102 offensive rating.

All flash, little substance.

Wall is actually putting up better stats with better team success. Regardless I think Wall and Irving are overrated as heck. Neither of them are even better than a rookie Paul in my eyes.

CapsNClips
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WHAAT??? Y'all are trippin' or have never seen Wall play this year other than this game. He's 2nd in assists, 3rd in steals, passes more than anyone in the league and is scoring close to 20pts, he's the best PG defender in the league.

Curry, Parker, and Irving couldn't defend someone to save their lives. I think I'll stick with Johnny boy.

Icecoldclipper
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Wall is the best PG in the East and Irving has regressed. His leadership issues and making his teammates better problem reminds me of RG3.

CapsNClips
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That's a sad...yet very true comparison. Spot on spot on.

CP3Heliflopter
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Vasquez was 2nd in assists last season as well. Raw stats don't mean much. He is on a bad team where he can put up nice raw numbers but that is it.

Also ignoring the fact that he is a terribly inefficient ball dominant scorer with no jump shot and is turnover prone.

Might as well say Demarcus Cousins is the best Center in the nba by far since he puts up amazing numbers.

A great PG has to run a great offense. Something Wall completely and utterly fails at because:

1) He is a terrible scorer/shooter. Yea 20 ppg on way below league average efficiency is actually a negative not a positive....

2) Turns the ball over way too much.

3) Not good enough as an offensive player to warrant dominating the ball as much as he does.

and so on. I saw him play against Denver when the game was on the line. He was struggling due to being afraid to shoot and made terrible decisions. He cost the Wizards the game.

CapsNClips
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Curry is leading the league in TO's. Wall is a better facilitator with less weapons to pass it to than Curry.

So Curry is a better scorer and turns it over more...sounds more like a SG to me.

Wall's shot has been getting better and better recently, and my favorite part about his game is that he's a really good defender, you can't really say that about many PG's anymore....especially Curry and Tony.

I'm more into a players all around game instead of just his offensive game. Wall is the best all around PG not named Paul.

Agent0
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I'm just going to take this wild stab and say that the 0.7 more TPG or whatever is countered by being a vastly better shooter and not just a better, but a far more effective scorer.

The Warriors aren't the 8th ranked defense because Curry sucks on defense. Also, being a jack of all trades and master of none is not as useful in basketball as some might think. It's hard to see the argument for Wall because Curry's scoring ability is a large gap than any gap Wall might have in defense or not turning the ball over.

If you're talking about numbers, it is a:

24/4/9 player vs a 19/4/9 player. We aren't even looking at shooting ability, and scoring effectiveness, but are we going to use a 0.7 turnover difference as the factor here? 9.2 APG to 9.0 APG, that's not enough of a difference to claim any significant discrepancy in facilitating, not to mention that even that needs to be examined, but both guys can create. Curry is better at creating in the half-court, but Wall is a more explosive drive and dish passer. Then defense, let's say Wall is great, Curry is good.

CP3Heliflopter
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The problem with your argument is Curry is 10x the shooter/scorer Wall is period and he plays off the ball a lot more than Wall and scores more so naturally he averages less assists per game.

You are comparing a player who is a putrid scorer in terms of efficiency to a super elite scorer in terms of efficiency. Its like comparing Rudy Gay to Durant scoring wise. The gap is ridiculously huge. Walls other strengths don't make up for it. He is the better defender sure but Curry is so much better offensively that it doesn't matter.

I like all rounders too but Wall's shooting is extremely suspect which is why he scores at such terrible efficiency even though he is a great finisher.

CapsNClips
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^ You lost me at "Curry is good" on defense. Good thing you said it at the end or else I would've just stopped. Anyways, like I said I don't think scoring is a great indicator of who's a better PG, if you guys think that, than Curry's definitely your guy.

Chris scores less than both of those guys and he's still the best PG by far. I like defense, you guys like offense. That's where we're gonna have to stop this debate. There's no way I'm gonna change my mind.

BTW I'd also take Rondo over Curry, Parker, Westbrook. So obviously I like a certain type of PG, whether he's inneficient at scoring or not.

CP3Heliflopter
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Chris is a superb scorer along with being the best playmaker in the game and a good defender which is why he is easily the best PG in the game. Its not about volume its about efficiency. Wall and Rondo are not good scorers which is the crux of the problem. There is a reason why they lead terrible offenses that are ranked at the bottom of the league and its not only due to personnel.

Being a good scorer=drawing defensive attention and being efficient naturally helps your team offense better just by virtue of being efficient.

A guy like Rondo will have guys sag off him defensively which leads to 4v5 basketball at times. CP3 draws much more defensive attention and is a much better scorer.

CapsNClips
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Yeah, but how were those Celtics teams defenses? Not too shabby if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure I can make this any clearer, but I'll try one last time and then I'm done. I love a PG who can play both ends of the court, especially defense and assist making.

I'd think since you've watched enough Knicks basketball in the last couple of years with Melo, that you might get the importance of being able to play both ends of the court.

Magic couldn't shoot a lick his entire career, Thomas was a defensive PG who wasn't efficient at scoring. Both were multiple time Champions and MVP's

david
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What a job by the starters tonight. Especially Chris Paul- what a great game shooting & setting up his teammates. He *dominated* when he was in there, and on defense did a very good job on John Wall as well. Nice to see Jared Dudley step it up- he not only made shots in the first quarter, he also did it in the second half. Hopefully that consistency will be there more often than naught. Good games too by Blake, DJ, & Jamal- they all did their jobs well.

Definitely a much needed move moving Crawford into the starting lineup. Better late than never, but having a great scorer like Crawford to take pressure off of CP & Blake, it opened things up for everyone from the get-go. There were more open 3's and way more lob-dunk plays. Willie just wasn't producing enough, but hopefully he feels less pressure w/ the second unit and will be able to perform better.

david
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LOL

CP3Heliflopter
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Magic was a 6'9 PG who had an excellent post game and was an excellent scorer. Isiah at his best wasn't efficient but was fairly good which is a whole lot better than what Wall and Rondo are.

Not sure what you are trying to say in regards to Rondo defensively because the Celtics excellent defense over the years has very very little to do with Rondo. He isn't even the best defensive guard on the Celtics. Bradley is and the historic levels of defense in 08 was largely due to KG.

Of course two way impact is important but who would you rather have Nash or Rondo? Most people would pick Nash. Superior offense for a PG trumps defense. PGs are not centers. They do not anchor defenses(unless your a big PG and still not as well as elite defensive centers) but they can definitely anchor offenses.

Anyway I get your point lets agree to disagree.

CapsNClips
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^ Agree

pageC4
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Clevelands players as a whole are regressing. That organization has made some horrible decisions, and bringing back coach Brown...my god. I kind of wonder if J.Andande is right and that teams always getting top five draft picks should have a limit. Cleveland, what a mess.

paradoxguy
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I have a question for those with higher basketball IQ's than I (which means about 90% of the forum's members) regarding what determines +/-'s for players for a given game. In this evening's Clippers-Wizards game, as per ESPN, Jared Dudley had the highest "+" of 38, considerably higher than Chris Paul's +24, despite CP3's stat line being notably higher than Dudley: CP3: 38 points, 12 assists, 3 rebounds, 3 steals, 0 blocks; Jared Dudley: 16 points, 3 assists, 1 rebound, 0 steals, 0 blocks. In addition, Blake Griffin and Jamal Crawford were both assessed as +22, almost....

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Voyeur
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I had to miss the game, dammit. But sounds like our stars came to play, especially Paul. I like that Crawford started. In fact, I remember suggesting he start while JJ was out if only to add a little energy to what we were doing.

Kingkanyon
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Those stats a merely based on points scored or given up while a given player was in the game. I don't believe in that stat all that much, but it holds some value as far as lineup's.

Jamal Starting- I don't think that was an energy thing, I think it was more of a spacing thing, Willie Green is shooting horrible, so bad that with him and Jared shooting bad there is no space on the floor for Cp3 and Blake to work the Pic and Roll, kinda why we've been struggling. On another note I don't think Jamal is a typical Bench guy, he's good enough to make it work, but he provides no energy to a game, he's just good.

ClippersDA
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This was more like it! The energy, the crispness, the focus - all there. Great bounce back game for Dudley and even really Paul. Liked crawford starting, but he needs to go to bench when jj returns. Nice shake up by doc. Now let's hope Dudley can string two good games in a row. I thought the Chicago game was a turning point and I was wrong,

itsLuigi
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Chris Paul: "We just wanted to win...It's a long flight home & we've got a lot of sore losers on this team."

Kingkanyon
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I don't think Jamal NEEDS to go to the Bench when JJ Returns, I think JJ would be just as good if not better off the bench.

Flushyriver
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I like JJ in the starting lineup and I'm pretty sure he'll go back to joining the starting rotation when he returns. I don't doubt that Crawford can produce with our starters, but I think they both fit their roles currently without a need to switch. Yeah there's the argument that Redick's been a bench scorer most of his career, but neither JJ nor Crawford have had higher PER 36 scoring numbers in their career than to start this season (21.1 points per 36 for Crawford; 20.1 points per 36 for Redick). If it ain't broke, right?

I don't think that's an immediate concern anyways since Redick's return is probably still over a month away. What I'm looking forward to is Barnes to come back, possibly some time in a week? Would love to have him for 20 minutes in the Christmas game.

Steady818
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Wasn't able to catch the game today but it seems like the team came out with more energy and actually got things done offensively!! All i want to see is W's...

ClipsGForce
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When JJ come back, JJ should be in the starting line up. JJ is like the diesel that keep the engine running and Jamal is like a good transmission oil that you can accelerate when he's hot. I'm excited when JJ come back, this team will be so good!!

Kingkanyon
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JJ should go to the Bench, I'm just saying it isn't that big of a deal if he does. But an argument could be made that it's better to have 2 play makers on the floor at the same time as oppose to 1, as well as Redick has played this year, our best line-up will always consist of CP3 and Crawford weather Crawford is at the 2 or 3.

DeadPoet
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btw. can we expect Barnes recovery soon?

I liked the team effort in this game. Only one time we saw the typical Clippers who lost their confidence a few minutes completely before CP3 took over again.

a lots of assists and plays. I liked the three time scoring passes with CP3, Blake and DJ. So its a bit more creativity in their plays.

Now we need Collision with hopefully more self esteem and Dudley in this form to have a chance against the Spurs.

Flushyriver
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Yeah I honestly thought Collison would be an asset with our new look bench squad. Had modest expectations for 10 points and 4 assists a game playing 20 rotational minutes a game. Yet, so far, he's averaging 7 points and 1.8 assists in 17 minutes a game.

Not his fault for only getting 17 minutes of playing time a game and in his defense, he's taken more 3s per 36 than ever before and his 3pt shooting percentage has stayed pretty consistent. Clearly he's adjusting to playing alongside CP3 and Crawford and adjusting to playing off the ball.

Nonetheless, he's shooting a career low in FG% and assists per 36. I know he's a good enough player to lead the secondary unit sooner than later. It doesn't help that pieces like Barnes and Bullock are out and shooting poorly when they're in. People overlook how important Barnes was for that secondary unit and maybe when those around him return to contributing, Collison can actually be a valuable piece.

And for the record, we definitely have a chance against the Spurs.

Kingkanyon
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Nawwwww.... We need to let Tony do his thing, let him score 40 if we must, but for the love of all that is holy STOP THE 3 POINT SHOOTERS.

Voyeur
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Yeah, I love that Crawford started, but there's no doubt Doc will start JJ once healthy due to his movement and (dare I say) defense.

What I love is Crawford seemed to play even better while backing up JJ. It's like some unspoken competition between the two. I like it.

Silasie
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I am very relieved that we had a decent game yesterday, seems like quite a while since our offense was actually working. And I've got to say that I love it when CP just goes off. This was good timing because otherwise I reckon the Spurs game could have been brutal. Hopefully it gives the players enough confidence to actually win. But at the least it feels like we will compete.

CP3Heliflopter
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The thing that worries me must about the Spurs is their bench. In my opinion they have the best bench in the league(stats agree with me). The biggest reason for the Spurs success this season is actually their bench. Their bench is scary defensively(like ours last season) but it is also good offensively too(not the case with our bench last season).

During the Minnesota game last night for example. It was the Spurs bench that kept the Spurs in striking range. Otherwise they would have been blown out and have never had a chance to come back. The Spurs bench has a ridiculous +/- statline.

Voyeur
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Yeah, I don't hold out much hope we beat the Spurs Monday. We just aren't healthy enough. Maybe I see it happening if Paul, Blake and Jamal are playing at their absolute best and DJ is protecting the basket and rebounding like never before. Otherwise...

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