JJ Redick or Jamal Crawford Better Fit with Starters

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jarca
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Mike Smith just said that when Jcross starts the defense focuses on Jcross and Paul which caused Dudley's game to explode. Paraphrase it though

Voyeur
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Sounds familiar.

Agent0
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I think he was saying Dudley gets the third best opposing defender. Of course that is the same situation if Redick is playing. I wasn't really paying attention to who was guarding him when Willie was starting.

Icecoldclipper
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I've said it before I think he has found his comfort as the 4th option. With Green next to him expectations are higher for him to produce and now he is just letting it flow.

As for the start of the season the knee may very well been a huge issue. Also during the half time show they mentioned playing for a new team and superstars takes an adjustment.

Kingkanyon
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Great Solid Team win, DJ, Blake, Dudley Damn.......

JC Struggled but he got to the line 11 times, love it 3-0 with JC starting, yeah baby.

Voyeur
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I'm sure even Jamal's not happy with his shooting since starting. But no doubt his presence in the starting lineup has helped...which is why I thought we should start him when Redick went down. He is closer to what JJ is able to do than Willie is.

gman
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SO we try with:

CP, J Craw, JD, BG, DJ

DC, JJ, Matt, ?? ??, pick your poison...or use Jackson, Duds, Barnes, and Reggie as a platoon 3 or 4 of the bench?

Voyeur
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You mean when JJ's back? No way! JJ still starts and Jamal is 6th man of the year. Done deal.

wessleejr
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I wasn't able to watch the game last night, but I recorded it, seems we are pretty good with Jamal as starter, he can run like JJ and can shoot their only difference is JJ is a good defender but Jamal can bring the ball and quick on one on one.

TheDude
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I doubt the players on their team think the same way and if they do, that's great for us. I'd love to be an overlooked underdog again but I don't think it's gonna happen any time in the next 5 years.

Unless Blake or CP miss a lot of time, we're at worst the 3 seed this year. I think we'll be the #2 with OKC #1.

TheDude
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Had to look through because I knew somebody would have said this already. I'd be shocked if he protested this idea. He loses his chance of 6th MOY but whatever, let's try to win some games and anyway I doubt any NBA player has ever complained about starting.

When Redick gets back, he's the 6th man and he plays with Collison. It's probably going to lower CP's assists per game but eventually we'll be more efficient. Obviously our defense hasn't been hurt with Jamal replacing Redick in SL and offensively it's going to give us a lot better balance throughout the game.

Let Collison be who he is and let Redick be who he is too. It's only going to help Collison offensively having a 2 guard that is constantly moving without the ball and creating wide open outlet options for Collison's drives. Willie's been doing better but he'll never replicate the spacing that Redick will provide on the 2nd team.

Icecoldclipper
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JJ is stilI a better fit with the starters in my opinion. JJ does a good creating for others off screens (Crawford is a better passer in open court) and his defense is better than Crawford.

I think Dudley can still flourish when JJ is back if he knee takes no step back. As for Collison and Crawford they can work just fine and they had big games together since Jamison start playing. We were getting strong production from those two with Bullock and believe same can happen when JJ comes back and with Barnes.

Voyeur
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^^ Here we go again. Redick provides better spacing on the FIRST team. We're getting a little carried away at the idea that Crawford has a lot to do with the 3-0 record. He's more of a threat than Willie because he is more similar than Willie to what Redick brings. But Redick is still far better off the ball than Crawford and, as we've seen, better at making opponents pay when they do leave him. Even when Crawford runs through screens, he still seems to hesitate and wait for the more difficult shot. Which is not what Doc wants. Doc....

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Kingkanyon
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OMG Really people, I love J.J. I do, but he will always be a liability on Defense. You say you want us to win a Championship yeah, so what happens when we play golden state and they keep running a switch to put little J.J on Iguadala, what about OKC, what about Kawai, as Hard as J.J. plays on D and he does, Teams are going to expose him. Now as Great as J.J. can shoot, he can't provide much else. You want to know why Jamal is a so much better fit with the Starters than J.J., 1. he's Taller so when he gets switched on a SF were not going to be too much in trouble, 2. He can shoot, but even when he's having a bad night he'll get to the FT line. 3. He makes plays, he can be a second Point guard on the Floor to relieve pressure of CP3 witch has really been the Clippers biggest problem, you double CP3 and they look rather lost, but with Jamal on the Floor and Blake getting better, that gives you 3 playmakers on the Floor. But the Funny thing about all this is that it's completely useless to even argue about who's going to start, the fact will always remain that the best player will always finish and Jamal Crawford is Top 5 in Fourth quarter scoring in all of the NBA....... So that would be Jamal Crawford in the END. When J.J. starts having numbers like Kyle Korver than this will be a legit argument until then this is plain dumb.

Voyeur
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Dumb is using Golden State as an example when we beat GS with JJ as a starter. Dumb is using JJ's 6'4 height as apparently your only real agrument against starting him. Dumb is not believing your own eyes when the team obviously plays better with him starting. And for the record, JJ is known for finishing games too. It's a fact. And, again, it's unfortunate that people like you can't root for a guy who's been helping YOUR team win.

ClipperPostman
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Bro JC needs to start over JJ. I'm a JJ fan, but we are a better team with JC starting. what you fail to mention is Dribble Penetration. To me that's the x factor for JC.

Without crawford we have no one to dribble penetrate but paul. We don't need 2 spot up shooters to start at the same time. If Dudley is knocking down open shots why would you need JJ with the exact same skill set playing the same roll.

Crawford not only brings the shooting, but also the slashing ability, which gets the defense out of position and opens up scoring for everyone else.

The bench will be much better with JJ and collison being able to be the primary ball handler as opposed to crawford.

There is a reason we are 3-0 with crawford starting.

My question is. At what point do you agree with starting crawford? What if we go 8-0? 10-0? 15-0?

And for the record I felt Crawford should have started over JJ since the beginning of the season.

ClipperPostman
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This man knows his basketball!

If you go back to the Miami Heat game, we were doing ok in the first half. Second half they doubled paul immediately and we were screwed. I remember seeing that and thinking they just exposed our greatest weakness.

JC should and will start if we are going to contend.

Agent0
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Yea, but you used stats that weren't basic stats, so all you said doesn't count Voyeur, at least that's what I've been told. I don't get it though...are our memories so short or do people just not want Redick to start and need some reason to justify it?

He's not perfect, but he fills a role and does it well and he works well with the starters. The nuance that people are missing is what Voyeur mentioned. Jamal runs off the ball, but he doesn't catch and shoot, he'll hold, retreat and make a one on one move. Redick runs off the ball and with little space he fires.

Why does this make a difference? Well the defenders know that when Redick catches the ball, he is very likely to shoot right away if open. That draws attention, not only in making his man work harder to stick to him, but also the attention of the man defending the screener because if his teammate doesn't get there he will look to help contest the possible open shot.

What does that mean for the offense moving forward as the guys get more accustomed to each other? Opens up he "dump off" or "pocket pass". A pas you'll see Ray a Allen make a lot also.

Agent0
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One of the problems in sports discussion is always correlation vs causation. Winning with Crawford starting doesn't mean winning primarily due to Crawford starting. It's always hard for this to be separated in sports. One of the biggest ways you see it is a team that wins primarily because of elite defense, and the teams highest scorer, generally a shot creator, who might really only be an average to above average offensive player in terms of actual team impact gets credited as the catalyst of the teams success.

Now of course they are as successful as they are partly because of him because if their offense was atrocious and defense elite, they would only be like a a .500 team, but the ability to lead a mediocre offense is not necessarily anything special in comparison to other high level players.

Problem that happens is that due to team success and the perceived impact this guy must be having since they are winning a lot and he's their primary offensive guy (irrespective of what is actually primarily leading to wins), a similar of even better player leading a good offense (as opposed to mediocre) with similar offensive talent, but an overall mediocre team because of comparably much inferior defensive talent is looked at as not being as good.

Doesn't actually make sense if you think about it, and there will be all types of subjective rationalization a until the situations change, but it is what seems to generally happen,

So I think we should balance out the idea that just he adjustment of starting Crawford magically made everything better. If only just for the additional reason that even with Willie starting, Crawford still got a good amount of time with the starters, but with Dudley not hitting shots and Blake not being as aggressive, those minutes were not producing as successful outcomes.

A lot more than just Crawford starting happened recently, and one of those things was coming back home where the Clippers were already 8-2 before the road trip.

Kingkanyon
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Actually we played GS once, and Klay Tompson Decided not to shoot the ball that night, both Crawford and J.J. Scored 17 points each, CP3 had 40 points and We still gave up 116 points. Also my argument isn't really his height, it's his overall game, it's his ability to guard players in a Iso situation or down low, he is a liability. And don't get me wrong I'm not routing against J.J., I've been routing for the guy to succeed every since he got drafted to Orlando, and I freakin Hate Duke. I wish him the best, but I'm being rational here, he can, will and already has been exposed defensively and those situation's. But I'll ask you the same question, you say you like the team but why are you routing against Jamal.

Clippers with Jamal Crawford PERFECTION.

CP3Heliflopter
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I think the starting lineup is better with Redick in it BUT I think Collison is totally ineffective when playing with Crawford. So I am a bit conflicted. We will see what happens.

fullcourt
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The team defense started shaky maybe because Crawford got stuck playing with 4-5 new bench players who knows however defensively

for the season after a bad start defensively jamal and CP backcourt was 109 Offense and 104 defense .

Jamal and CP since Nov 23 is 111 offense and 99 defense

So defensively nothing is really different between JJ and jamal defensively although I will honestly say that JJ doesn't have the one or two unexplainable lapses per game that jamal has

Last year CP and Jamal was 111 Offense and 101 defense so I can see Doc and his scheme bumping them 2 points

As far as spacing goes it really is this simple

JJ is a elite shooter so you must account for him at all times

Jamal is a great shooter but also a great scorer and so not only do you have to account for him it actually matters who you account for him with.

You can take if you sg is your best defender and put him on CP and put your PG who is quick enough to run around screens on JJ.

However most teams won't dare put there PG on Jamal he demands that you put a good man defender on him. the Spurs game game is perfect example of Jamals presence allowing us to dictate matchups. Pop wouldve wanted to Leonard on CP all the time but then who does he put on Crawford.

Both JJ and jamal bring something the team needs but jamal has been discounted for really no reason.

last year CP,Jamal,Barnes,Blake ,and DJ our best lineup was 115 offense and 93 defense and that was under Vinnie Del Negro and we have yet to even see that lineup for any length of time. That lineup may still be our best lineup.

After a horrible start to the season in which the lineup of CP,Jamal,Dudley,Blake ,and DJ was a huge dropoff from the same lineup with JJ instead of Jamal something like 20 pts defensively it has for nearly a month now been at 108 offense 99 defense.

Voyeur
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You don't think there's a reason Thompson "decided" not to shoot that night? It wasn't just that Redick did a great job on 6'7 Thompson (which he did), but he made Thompson run around and get tired. Just like he did to James Harden.

Be prepared to call Doc Rivers "dumb" when he puts JJ back in the starting lineup once healthy.

I don't root against Jamal. 2 years ago I said we should have gotten him but we got Nick Young instead. Since then I love what Jamal brings off the bench. I'd much rather have an explosive ISO style scorer off the bench. However, it can be more disruptive in the starting lineup than JJ's style.

Agent0
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This is the one area that I'm also a bit iffy about. I wouldn't say totally ineffective, but he certainly plays more aggressively without Crawford and seems more comfortable. Sample size isn't that big though, and he's had good games with Crawford.

I have no problem trying Redick with Collison, but not because I can say Crawford fits the starting lineup better, but because Redick might fit better with both lineups, but the bench might need an aggressive Collison more than the starters need Redick.

Also in the end, rotations can go managed to give him ample time with the starters if you want.

tense2
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Whatever starter combinations that makes the TEAM better should start. Very Happy

Agent0
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Pop uses length on CP, but doesn't usually do it for the whole game.

In terms of your question, mmm...Danny Green of course. Spurs are on team that have the luxury of two long and athletic wing defenders.

This isn't really accurate though because Jamal last year for example was playing a good amount of minutes with the starters, and when he was on, we still saw Sefolosha, Iguodala, etc on Paul, not on Crawford.

While Crawford can create, the danger to your defense is greater with Paul than with Jamal.

Agent0
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Basically. If Redick is better with the starters, but Paul/Crawford and Collison/Redick is better than Paul/Redick and Collison/Crawford, then Redick should come off the bench.

Voyeur
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I think the idea that our bench was ineffective with JC and DC is WAY overstated. They were playing better together, especially once Jamison was finally put in. I'll say it once again. If the Bledsoe-Crawford combo was potent. So can be the Collison-Crawford combo...in fact they've shown they have been. But much like the new starters had to adjust, so did the bench.

Silasie
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Well you guys are certainly passionate about who should start.

But as fullcourt says above "JJ is a elite shooter so you must account for him at all times

Jamal is a great shooter but also a great scorer and so not only do you have to account for him it actually matters who you account for him with."

Now that is a great problem to have, the best PG in the business and either of these 2 guys to put next to him.

For my what its worth I liked JJ starting and Jamal off the bench but if both can work then I'll leave up to Doc and just be glad we are so strong at the SG position. JJ's movement is so constant and dynamic that it creates oppotunities offensivley for everyone but then again Jamal can be ungaurdable. Like I say not a bad problem to have.

Clippersfan86
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Voyeur is putting on a clinic in here, love it! Our team clearly flows better with Redick than Crawford. Talent wise they are pretty equal, which may be the root of contention in this thread. But Crawford is better as our volume scoring 6th man IMO.

Voyeur
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I'm working up a sweat here! Wink

cleepers
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Very true.

Winning with Jamal starting = correlation.

Winning with Mullens DNP-CD = causation.

Kingkanyon
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Talent Wise they are equal........ I'm done.

Voyeur
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I just saw this new thread and thought, "Oh lawed, I'm not gonna have to repost everything all over again, am I?" LOL

david
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Thought this discussion deserves its own thread. It's hard to say if the team will do better with one starting over the other. Redick fits the system better, but Crawford presents a tough decision for the opponents re: who to put their best wing defender on- CP or Jamal. I don't think it's a coincidence that CP & Dudley's scoring have increased w/ JC in there. But I'm pretty sure Jamal is going back to the bench when JJ returns.

The luxury of having both those guys though is if one of them is struggling, you can have the other one play more minutes to pick up the slack. And of course as we have seen in many games they often play together in the 4th quarter.

CapsNClips
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I'm not a fan of the Jamal/Griffin pick-n-roll, I feel Jamal takes the shot too often instead of dishing it to the cutting Griffin. Redick knows how to work without the ball which translates well when you have other scoring studs in the starting lineup like Griffin.

Redick has to be the starter, it just makes way too much sense.

Silasie
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The vid link that Agent0 posted certainly supports your point.

LobAngelesBlakers
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I don't want to take us off topic, but it seems like a lot of players get injured playing against Memphis. Barnes and JJ did and now Kobe is out for another 6 weeks. I think the league should tell them to chill the eff out.

On topic: JJ is better for our starting line up, but I bet with Jamal starting, the atmosphere in the locker room is probably great. He wants to start, and spirits are probably high right now, causing our play to be awesome as well. Just my two cents.

uncool
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The question should be, who fits better with the bench?... I think that's Jamal.

fullcourt
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This is not accurate when Blake runs pick and roll with Jamal he never cuts because he is ALWAYS WIDEOPEN for that jumpshot as is every single bigman we've had since Jamal arrived

I wish someone would chart this stuff if we had Ryan Anderson he would be going to the all star team setting picks for CP and Jamal. They get doubled nearly every time. That top of the key shot for a big is what our offense creates nearly every time CP or jamal uses a screen.

its why Doc got Mullens and jamison thinking they could take advantage of it but it still gets wasted most of the time because we don't have the bigman shooter.

I still remember the Kings game CP missed and Jamal and Blake ran that pick and roll play the entire 4th and Blake was wideopen at the top of the key and just kept throwing it back to jamal or Collison

clipperAndrew
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I actually disagree here. First I would say don't put JJ back in the starting line up if this is working. Second Jamal needs the ball in his hands a lot, which makes Collison useless. You can see and has been said by Mike and Ralph is Collison is better with Jamal not there. JJ could play anywhere because he doesn't need the ball in his hands.

I think I like Jamal in the starting line up because he still frees up Griffin and creates shots...but you know he will always defer the ball to CP3...not so much Collison.

Voyeur
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I haven't even talked about how effective that play is, I don't know what it's called, where JJ runs to a corner and finds Blake sneaking underneath the basket. It's a nice play that seems to work with JJ and we haven't seen to much of it when he's gone.

Oh, and let's not forget JJ has turned into one of the hottest first quarter players in the league!

Greenmonk94
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the offense looked so good with jj in the starting lineup.. but our defense sucked.. with jj coming back to our great defense still clicking we will be a force to be wreckin with.. jamal is a poor mans jj.. in the terms of running off screens and stuff..

namzug
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I don't think the starters really struggle with either of the two starting, and they are good with either or. I think the biggest difference is who works better with DC. I really have been disappointed with DC's play up until Jcross got the start. I also do think that JJ and Blake work a little better together than Blake and Jcross. I also think that JJ's perimeter defense could help on the bench a little more because of the lack of quality defensive Bigs coming off the bench.

So @CapsNClips and @CP3Heliflopter make the best points.

It's not about starting the best player necessarily like @Agent0 and @tense2 said that it should be about what makes the team better as a whole that should work. The starting title is of little consequence to me, it's all about minutes and I don't think that they will split their minutes like those for the bigs. They will each get their fair share and whoever has the hot hand might get the greater share on that night. It could also depend on match ups as well.

@Voyeur and @KingKanyon you both make great points, and I like both players. I would like to see Doc play with both variations and see what makes us the better team. DC and JJ Reddick might be too much of a duo for bench units. Maybe JJ should start but Jamal finish games. There are so many possibilities, and that's what the season is for. The bad thing was JJ's injury prevented us from playing with it too much before the All-Star Game.

As far as when JJ returns I think it would be smart to bring him off the bench until he gets re-adjusted at least for a few games. I'm sure Doc will do what's best for the team.

ClipperPostman
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The reality is Crawford is a better player than JJ. We can't argue this.

The reality is even before JJ went out this board was going crazy

about how bad we were looking.

The moment Crawford went to the starting lineup the entire team did a 180. We have had the 3 best wins of the season, and even SKIP BAYLESS had to give us props.

The fact is JJ is just a spot up shooter. Catch and shoot guy. That's all he has ever been.

Crawford can catch and shoot, dribble penetrate, hit clutch baskets, ISO, and make plays. JJ will never put up 31-7-12. Crawford did that when CP3 was out.

JJ has never put up a 50 point game. He just doesn't have that capability.

Crawford causes matchup problems on the defense because he requires attention even if his shot is not falling. If JJ shot isn't falling he is pretty much useless.

Remember the games he started hot, then disappeared the second half? Some of those games we loss.

I like JJ a lot. His talent is great for coming off the bench. Crawfords talent needs to be starting along with CP3 and Blake, you have 3 of the most explosive offensive talents in the league.

Can't say that with JJ out there.

Crawford Starts - JJ Bench

BringKamanBack
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1.Start JJ

2.take him out at the 6 minute mark

3.Put in JC to play with first team

  1. Take out JC and put in JJ at the 2 minute mark when 2nd team comes in

  2. take JJ out out at the 6 minute mark of the 2nd quarter

Voyeur
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@namzug: Technically Collison's had better games alongside Crawford than the three games JC's started (9.6 points, 37% FG, 20% 3 points, 1 assist while Crawford started)

@ClipperPostman: Just because Crawford's a "better player than JJ" doesn't make him a better role player. One might argue "better basketball player" should also include defense. One might also argue that maybe the bench needs a "better basketball player" and the starters need a "better role player".

ArtMaggot
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Happy to have them both, I will let Doc work out the rotations.

rogmatic
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In theory Crawford should be better off the bench because he can create his own shot and doesn't need Paul to generate offense (unlike JJ, who is just a catch and shoot guy).

JahvonTheClip
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Also on the bench jamal can take advantage of bench defenders instead of the best of the best (sometimes)

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