Blake Griffin vs Kevin Love (P. 3)

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Agent0
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Both these guys have been killing it lately. Love's last 7 games:

30.6 PPG, 13.7 RPG, 4.3 APG, 51.8% FG, 38.5% 3PT, 84.2% FT

...and people still complain about the quality of big men in the league, lol

WinningBasket
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Why is there such a love fest for Kevin Love? Lol He seems to be the media darling too. I get that he has great stats, but he doesn't strike me as THE player who could carry his 15-15 team on his back on a consistent basis whereas Blake has the potential to take the Clippers to a much higher level.

Agent0
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Meh, honestly, who knows, he might, he might not, but there's certainly no real evidence for the latter. Good production is good production if there are no confounding things like being a ball hog. All the other arbitrary things are not as important if one is producing well. His offensive production is impactful, clearly since their PG is immune to scoring. An efficient 25+ PPG benefits a team whether you create shots or are even assisted on 100%, and of course we know he can create quite well actually.

The questions are how does he impact a defense and can he close games? Of course defensive rebounding helps a defense, and he is playing extensive minutes on what is currently a 9th ranked defense with no shot blocker in the starting lineup, so something has to be happening that is right, and he doesn't seem to be screwing it up. Minnesota reminds me a bit of Denver last season in terms of how they started with a mediocre record due to schedule and their record wasn't indicative of ability.

In terms of closing games, really, as a big, it's fine if you aren't amazing and Dirk Nowitzki as long as you have guards that can do it, but it isn't like you can't design plays in which he gets the shot, and it isn't like he lacks capability.

I dislike the "does he have it"', "can he carry his team on the back" type arguments because they're similar to ones people would want to say about Blake, and many times too arbitrary. If you're scoring 25+ PPG and 30 PPG over a 10 game span, it is really hard to not be carrying your team on your back at points through that.

Minnesota is 9th in Ortg and 9th in Drtg. They have an expected record (based on production) of 19-11 but are 15-15. Their differential is +4.1. If their play continues at the same level, their record will most likely balance out to a 50 win team since through 30 games they have the 6th best differential in the West.

FightOnRon
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Because he doesn't play in the west and in particular in Los Angeles.

CP3Heliflopter
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WinningBasket wrote:
Why is there such a love fest for Kevin Love? Lol He seems to be the media darling too. I get that he has great stats, but he doesn't strike me as THE player who could carry his 15-15 team on his back on a consistent basis whereas Blake has the potential to take the Clippers to a much higher level.

Replace Love with BG on the Wolves. Can you honestly say that team is better than 15-15? They are comparable players. I think Love is a bit better right now but Blake has more upside.

FightOnRon wrote:
Because he doesn't play in the west and in particular in Los Angeles.

Love doesn't play in the West? Confused

Silasie
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"Love doesn't play in the West? "

Where does he play then????????

ClipperKyle32
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Repped High Quality Post
Blake Griffin and Kevin Love do the same thing just a different way I told a bunch of fans of the Timberwolves on Instagram this: Blake and Kevin both SCORE but differently, Blake scores in the post....

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WinningBasket
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I get what you guys are saying about Love. I agree he is a much better player than Blake at this time, having been in the league longer than Blake. Kevin Love may or may not end up carrying his team to a better record and to the playoffs, but it's a given that he is overall a better player for now. However, I prefer Blake and his potential of what he could ultimately become. To have a front row seat, so to speak, as a Clippers fan and see his growth in what we hope he could really be, that superstar with all-around skills, is more intriguing to me.

Don't shoot this poor newbie, lol.

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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The midwest.

Very Happy

Agent0
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I wouldn't say he's "much" better. They are comparable players, someone can make a solid argument for Love being better, but you can also make an argument for taking Blake because he's not far off and due to greater defensive potential and potential in general.

toohipcliptoslip
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Interesting. You made what initially seemed like a sojourn into the land of the oxymoron a very well thought out post. Blake is now playing like a beast. Blake anyday

ClippersDA
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I'm bored and have been reading fans of other teams perspectives on blake. I don't understand why other fans who discuss potential trades for blake would want to immediately flip him for picks and expirings. It's very odd, he is a high scoring and very efficient player who is only 24. His image is improving but fans of other nba teams seem reluctant to part with the narrative that he is a one trick pony.

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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Games lost choking at the FT line in crunch time this season:

Love - 1

Griffin - 0

Amnesty_David_Stern
Clipper All-Star
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DeAndre Jordan VS Dwight Howard

Chris Paul VS Russell Westbrook

Jamal Crawford VS Manu Ginobili

JJ Reddick VS Kyle Korver

Ryan Hollins VS Towel Boy

Voyeur
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Ouch. lol

On a sour note, Skip Bayless last night tweated that Splitter outplayed Blake. Games like that make me WISH we were playing more man-to-man defense, but that's not the way it works.

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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^ Yeah, I heard about that tweet. Something tells me that Skippy "skipped" over Love's collapse at the line and hasn't been updating his idiot disciples on Blake's best in career numbers for the previous couple of weeks.

#Hater

Voyeur
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Surprisingly, Skip is no fan of Love either. Calls him someone who disappears down the stretch. Even made a crack about that last night against Durant.

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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^ My bad...

#EqualOpportunityHater

Silasie
Clipper All-Star
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K.Love was the polar opposite of clutch last night....................clutchless, unclutch, non-clutch............................................................ ...................or maybe just good old fashioned choked. Wink

I think the TWolves have the worst record for tight games in the NBA or something like that?

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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^ Automatic transmission - No clutch?

Silasie
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^

yeah but those free throws certainly weren't automatic Wink

jazclipcity3
Clipper Rookie
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Haha towel boy...hands down. ...he knows his role and he executes night in and night out.

toohipcliptoslip
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This is somewhat on point but it isn't a comparison between the two as to who is better.

Big Baby gave Blake fits. Baby is stronger and bigger so Blake can't out muscle him. Baby got him into foul trouble. This is where BG should have been able to use his quickness and fundamental skills including good footwork and torch him. This is why he needs to study. Love has these fundamentals. BG's done a lot so far so asking him to learn this RIGHT NOW is a bit much but let's put it on the laundry list.

Again not making a value judgement.

ClipperKyle32
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Question because I would like to revisit this topic. If many Cleveland fans and NBA fans are reluctant to trade Wiggins for Love, then Love obviously isn't the best Power Forward in the NBA as many....

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JQuick32
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I would take Blake, Davis, LMA, Dirk, and Duncan over Love. Love is a loser with empty stats.

dom1
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Honestly this upcoming season i think Anthony Davis makes that leap into best power forward conversation. That kid has the total package on both ends of the floor

Bingo3
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I agree. I think he's going to be the PF in another year or two. He's already a beast on the defensive end.

ClipperKyle32
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Yea. If he can actually play PF with Asik behind him. NOLA has about as good a big man rotation as us and the Spurs.

Clippers - Griffin/Jordan/Hawes/Davis

Pelicans - Davis/Asik/Anderson/Ajinca

Spurs - Duncan/Splitter/Diaw/Bonner

da11da
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Blake>Davis>Love

SamMays
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Blake and Love are both great players who play the position in very different ways. I won't bother to state those obvious differences, but if they were both draftable now I would suspect Blake would go first for most teams. Other teams might find a stretch-the-floor PF a better fit for them. In any event you are comparing two great, great players.

ClipperPostman
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IMO Cavs front office are really dropping the ball. I'd trade wiggins in a heartbeat for

Kevin Love to play with Lebron.

Wiggins in decent, but he plays similar to Lebron, and he is a rookie. Kevin Love is a beast no matter how you slice it. Averaging 26 12 in this league as a PF is huge regardless of what team you play for. He also is shooting 37% from 3 as a PF. With Lebron and Kyrie that would be a deadly team. Not sure who in there right mind would blow that opportunity for an unproven rookie, who honestly doesn't look like he will be the next durant anytime soon.

Agent0
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The thing about potential is that you never know, so it's not an easy choice for everyone because you're thinking "what if Wiggings becomes a superstar". Also the Cavs could technically wait it out, renounce everyone but their main guys and sign Love next season.

Would Cleveland trade Wiggings for Blake? No, because there's the option of Love, and Love and Lebron fit better than Blake and Lebron.

Aldridge? Would Portland? Anthony Davis? That's an easy one, not because Davis is better than all the other guys, but Davis is going to his third season and is 21 years old, and is actually producing. Wiggins value is not as high as 1st picks who are already playing at star / superstar levels UNLESS they want to leave their team.

So the actual question is whether those teams would trade those guys for Wiggins, and the answer is no. Blake was a 1st pick and is playing like one, you don't know what Wiggins will be, Wiggins value is far below Blake's. Davis, Love, Aldridge are all playing like players that could also have been picked first, Wiggins value is below. Portland has an established team trying to do big things. The only reason Love is being offered for Wiggins is because Minnesota doesn't believe they can keep him, if not, there wouldn't be any discussion. They are trying to salvage a bad situation.

Also there are rumbles that Minnesota is asking for more than Cleveland is willing to offer, that is more than Wiggins.

It's always a hard choice, but teams have missed out on good talent because of their love for "what if", and "what could be". Love is established, he's a star, he's highly productive. Wiggins could be a start, could be a superstar, could just be like a 17-18 PPG guy who defends really well, like a better scoring, worse ball handling / passing Andre Iguodala. We really don't know. So it's a cross-roads.

Agent0
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Why exactly are his stats empty? What are empty about the stats your consider empty? Were Dirk's stats in 12-13 empty? What about LMA in 11-12 (20-23) and 12-13 (33-49). I really do think that people throw out the phrase empty stats way too much just as a parroting of it because from what I would consider empty stats, that is the ones that look good when you just look at PPG/RPG/APG like a lot of people like to, until you go beyond the simple counting stats and it's not so pretty. For example:

Ricky Davis 02-03:

20.6 / 4.9 / 5.5 looks great, then you look further and you see 3.5 TPG / .485 TS% / 98 Ortg and what looked like "elite" production because of people's fascination with "20/5/5" really isn't having the same impact as a guy putting up only 18/3/7 but taking care of the ball, shooting effectively, etc.

Or

Antoine Walker 04-05 (ATL):

19.1 / 9.0 / 3.4 looks really good, then you look further and you see 3.3 TPG / .478 TS% / 94 Ortg. Then it's like are you really benefiting a teams offense by using 18 FGA to score 19 PPG while averaging 3.3 tov to your 3.4 APG? I have some questions about that on what was the league's 29th ranked offense, but of course to be fair, it was a bad team, but Walker is one of those guys where it wasn't him being "forced" to play a bigger role than his skills, that was actually how he had played for most of his career.

That's empty stats, I just can't see how a guy who's team produces vastly better on offense when he is on the floor, and actually they are also better on defense when he is on the floor. Maybe that says more about their sucky bench than anything, but I don't understand a guy who has that AND produces his numbers efficiently, so he isn't just using a lot of possessions to accumulate stats, he isn't a ball hog, etc, etc. I don't understand how his stats are empty, just doesn't make sense. I mean I know some people do the foolish "well his team didn't make the playoffs, so therefore his stats are empty" which is obviously just stupid and is not analysis at all. Some people will say "well he pads his defensive rebounding stats", so take away 1-2 RPG (if that many), but that's still just rebounding, and then you'll have to criticize Reggie and Rodman too. Still it isn't empty because he's still a very good rebounder, and the rest of his stats don't fall into there as he still scores and gets assists and is efficiency, is he padding his efficiency by making too many of his shots?

I just don't get it. Why are they actually "empty" unless his production in itself is hindering winning. Is it?

kjavis
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Love may have inflated stats being on a bad team but I don't see his averages dipping to drastically if he went to a contending team. Love is similar to Melo, he can just flat out score, long shots, mid shots, hustling offensive boards for putbacks etc etc. If I were the Cavs and wanted to win NOW then it's easy I would trade Wiggins for Love

JQuick32
Posts: 3385

I wouldn't want Melo either.

Far too many times, I've seen Love get into rebounding position early instead of contesting a shot or fighting his own teammates for rebounds. I really don't see any case against him being a stat-padder.

realbull17
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I'm for BG32.

Agent0
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That's only rebounding, so what about everything else he does? All you're saying is that you think he pads his defensive rebounds, well guess what? He doesn't only rebound.

I agree, he doesn't contest enough, fighting teammates for rebounds is not really an issue, that happens everywhere, I can't imagine he does it more, and you're probably seeing him do it more if you do because of confirmation bias. How is he padding his scoring, his efficiency, his passing, the fact that the team is better on offense, and actually also one defense when he is on the floor. Now of course the bigger problem is that you said his stats were empty, but how are they empty? Just doesn't make sense.

BaadMaster
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The beauty of us second-guessing is that not only are we always right, we bear no consequences when we are wrong. A GM can make one bad call -- picking someone instead of MJ or choosing Greg Oden #1 -- and instantly become a GM pariah. One stroke of luck -- trading for Kobe -- and Jerry West is a "genius." Thus, worlds are turned on these decisions. And it is not our worlds -- it is the world of high salaried GMs.

If KLove gets injured and Wiggins becomes the next Kobe, there would be one GM with egg all over his face. It already looks like the executive who took Exum will have the biggest washout of this years draft. But maybe not.

That is why the draft is both exciting and infuriating. You are dealing with kids who become instant millionaires. Some opt for drugs and women -- like the late Len Bias (if you are too young to know who he is, look him up.) Others become obsessed with becoming great and work hard -- BG, Kobe, LeBron, et. al.

Me, I would not trade BG for KLove under any circumstances. But, I would really look long and hard at Wiggins. Is he the "next big thing?" If he is, nix on the trade. Will he become a solid NBA player? -- then you get Love.

And that decision is a tough one.

kjavis
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Fair enough but just because you don't like em doesn't mean 20 other teams wouldn't give their left scrotum to have a top 10 player in their franchise

ClipperKyle32
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Baad I have always said, if Wiggins is traded. He will become the next Kobe. That Is just how I feel. I'd give him two or three years , but now there is even more....

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kjavis
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Lebron is 30 now, so realistically he is got another 3-5 prime years. Its a small window, one that doesn't accommodate a developing rookie. Whether Wiggins becomes the next Kobe is one thing but what you get with Love is a player who already produces close to Kobe numbers, factor in the rebounds and he is off the charts. Cleveland has already signed Jones and Miller, it only makes perfect sense now to add the final piece to form the Big 3 of Lebron, Love and Kyrie. That would put the Cavs as instant favorites to come out of what is still a weak Eastern Conference and challenge for the championship

ClipperPostman
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I'm not sure why people think this, but there has never been a Kobe type player that was "good" before the pro's and exploded into a top player in the league. It just doesn't happen, but for some reason people think it does.

Let's look at history.

Players who are on Kobe level or slightly below in the last 15 or so years.

  1. Kobe

  2. Lebron

  3. Jordan

  4. Durant

  5. Melo

These are in no particular order.

Everyone of these guys had ridiculous college/High school careers. Kobe and Lebron came straight from high school. You don't go straight from HS unless you are already showing the potential to be the greatest player in the world.

Durant, Jordan, and Melo were all monsters in college, which great numbers to back it up. They didn't make a huge Quantam Leap in the pro's. They killed it in college and went on to kill it in the pro's as expected.

Now at times we are somewhat disappointed when someone kills it in college and get to the league and doesn't quite pan out. That happens. But I've never seen a player who was decent/good in college and turn into one of the best players in the league. Just doesn't happen.

Wiggins college career was decent/Good. He isn't great at anything. He isn't a great scorer, he is a mediocre 3pt shooter, and I guess a pretty good rebounder if you consider him a 2 guard.. But nothing says he will be the next Kobe whatsoever.

BaadMaster
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Interesting debate and good analysis. BUT (in caps) there have been many who had ridiculous H.S. careers, showed potential to be great, came straight to the NBA and flamed out. Kwame Brown comes to mind; there are others.

The fact is, there will be another stratospheric superstar. It could even be Blake Griffin -- depending on how hard he works and his ceiling. Griffin was better in college than Wiggins. Does that really predict anything? I am not sure.

If this prediction stuff were easy, Jordan would not have wound up with Chicago, Kobe would have stayed in Memphis and I would have bought Apple stock when it was 14 bucks.

Me, I would likely trade Wiggins for KLove. And look like a fool in three years.

JQuick32
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If he's the next Kobrick, then I'd trade him in an instant. Smile

JQuick32
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The rest of his stats are inflated by being the first option on a bad team when he wouldn't even be close to a first option on a championship team.

ClipperKyle32
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Cna they trade us Wiggins for Jamal? LoL

Scplum
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Someone posted Lebrons window being 3-5 years and for this reason you go balls out and put it all on the table to create the best team possible to try and win it now. KLove gives you the better chance now, Wiggins may turn out to be great even better but he will take a few years so keeping him would be ideal but Minnesota wouldn't do the deal if he's not part of the package so he has to go.

Can Cleveland win it now with Love? : Varejo/Love/James/Watters/Irving , bench: Miller/Jones....

Any team with James has a chance, adding Love gives you a true big 3, Watters worries me for some reason but maybe he gets in line with Lebron on the team. In the east ....they may be ready.

CapsNClips
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ClipperKyle32 wrote:

Cna they trade us Wiggins for Jamal? LoL

It's the T Wolves. Of course that can be arranged.

Agent0
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He would be an option 1a/1b or a second option, not really "not close" wouldn't you say? On the Clippers he would have the same role as Griffin, so still the teams leading scorer. On Golden State again a similar role. Both teams also use their PF's as playmakers.

The only place he'd score less is playing next to Lebron and he'd still be putting up about 22 PPG if you are using him correctly as his efficiency probably goes up so he takes less shots but scores more pts/shot. Noneof that makes his stats empty, that just means Love would be most successful if he had a better or equal player on his team which is true for a lot of players.

Love's teams problem isn't his inability as a first option, I think that's the problem here. People immediately think that because the team isn't doing so well it must mean he is failing. Love in his ability is doing what he can. Could you build a championship team with Love as the first option? Of course, but you don't build a team like Minnesota. Love needs to be paired with a defensive C, a two way SF, and another player that can create from the perimeter, and all teams would like nice role players that compliment their starters.

Look what Minnesota has: A PG who can't shoot off the dribble or finish at the basket well, a SG who can't create off the dribble despite being a decent scorer, a SF who's offensive skills aren't so good and hasn't gotten close to his defensive prowess of college and an offensive C. Teams are as much about fit as they are about talent. All those players aren't bad, but they aren't the right combination.

Imagine we had:

Isaiah Thomas

Iman Shumpert

Evan Turner

Blake Griffin

Brook Lopez

-Dante Cunninghan, Jose Barea, Girogio Dieng, Luc Mbah A Moute

That team is really not that good. There are some okay players there in certain team contexts, but the team just doesn't compliment each other well. That team likely doesn't make the playoffs in the West. Blake likely puts up the same numbers, and then someone like you would say "he puts up empty stats", "his stats are inflated", etc. We have to look at context and actual ability, not be Skip Bayless and have no perspective.

Defensive C: Bogut, two way SF: Terrence Ross, Perimeter shot creator: Goran Dragic, decent SG: Wesley Matthews, good bench creator: Paul Pierce, decent backup PG: Devin Harris, decent backup big: Brandon Bass

Goran Dragic / Devin Harris

Wesley Matthews / Francisco Garcia

Terrence Ross / Paul Pierce

Kevin Love / Brandon Bass

Andrew Bogut / Gorgiu Dieng

Now suddenly Love is the leading scorer on a 50+ win team, actually with the right coach that team can contend and putting up the same numbers. Minnesota just did not build the team well. When you have a PG who is a poor scorer and can't score out of isolation, you need to pair him with a SG or SF that can create off the dribble, not two that need to be created for. The high level PG's are all good isolation scoring options, that's part of what makes them so good. When you have a short armed unathletic PF who will never be a defensive anchor, as good as your C is offensively, you need to build around your PF and trade offense for defense. Dallas figured this out when they got rid of guys like Jamison and Walker and got Dampier. Minny should have traded Pekovic for a defensive C. You also need solid wing defense. I suppose they tried with Brewer, but he's just not that good a defender. The team partly didn't succeed through poor team building, and their bench was awful anyways.

Agent0
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I believe Postman actually addressed this. He basically said the guys who killed it also killed it before the NBA, and there were other guys who killed it before the NBA and still weren't good, but there weren't really any guys he can think of who were mediocre before the NBA and then just exploded to high level superstar.

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