Darren Collison vs. Eric Bledsoe: By The Numbers

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ClipperKyle32
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Collison vs. Bledsoe: By the Numbers By FlyByKnight Jan 26 2014 Collison vs. Bledsoe: By the Numbers "Last night in the Toronto recap thread Citizen kirbs rather innocently asked if anyone had analyzed Darren Collison's numbers as a starter....

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Voyeur
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Yeah Bledsoe is a bad boy. And he totally deserved to put his athleticism and beastliness on display as a starter for some team. Phoenix is kinda the perfect team to do that. Although I could see Bledsoe helping a team like the Knicks also. But I like DC better as a back up to CP3 who can come in and lead the team if needs be. He's just kinda smoother as a point guard. He won't necessarily be a game changer, but he won't do much to hurt the team either. He's just been solid.

jtwinnaz
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All I have to say is we had Vinny last year...

Bledsoe is a much better player. There is no argument, but DC is playing just as most of us expected, pretty good.

fullcourt
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Id say this comparison is ridiculously unfair to Bledsoe. Bledsoe played under VDN and Collison gets to run Docs offensive sets there is no fair comparison there since neither player got to play for both. All I have to say is Avery Bradley to tell you that odds are that Bledsoe wouldve been incredible in Docs system. Bledsoe was a big reason that there were times where we could go to him and Crawford and the backcourt and not have to bring CP back in.

wessleejr
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I like both this guy, seems we did not lost Bledsoe, He is very athletic but his negative is he has no control of his speed like a freight train who lost his break, Collison doesn't have the speed as Bledsoe but has more control going to the hoop. but both guys when hot they are hot, another thing is Bledsoe always smiling in anything.

I dont want to vote since they played in different coaches with different system.

ClipperKyle32
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Speaking of Point Guards

@BA_Turner: Clippers didn't sign Darius Morris after his 2nd 10 day contract expired. Morris a free agent. Clips roster at 14

Akclipps
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Bledsoe has more athletic ability and can block Lebron or D wade but has no control with no jumpshot. Dc knows how to use his speed by getting foul and shoot freethrows. I like Darren cuz he fits more in doc system and his jumpshot 50x better than bled.

TheDude
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Bled might be better this year but Collison of this season vs. Bled of last season is clearly an upgrade. Collison is under control, makes good decisions, handles better and just plays so much smarter. I feel a lot better with him at point vs. last year with Bled.

10 years from now, probably Bled will have had the better career but this collision vs. that Bled, I take this Collison.

what_up_clipnation83
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DC was playing very well when CP first went down, before the big toe injury. I think he was averaging something like 17 and 7. DC numbers dip since the sprained big toe. His defense has suffered as long as his quickness.

Diamond909
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DC is an upgrade in the since of directing players in the right location and being control. Bledsoe was fun for us, last year. But at the same time we couldn't trust his judgment down the line.

Laak
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Offensively Bled form last year and Collison this year's pretty similar. But nobody can play play D like Bledsoe.

GhostShip
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Bledsoe and its not even close

GhostShip
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Collison is a borderline starter. Bledsoe when healthy he was a borderline all star this year.

cleepers
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Funny how nobody is mentioning money... which is the only reason we let Bled go in the first place.

JJ + Collison > Bledsoe... that's the choice we had to make in the real world.

clipperboy24
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Not really. We could have done a s&t with Bledsoe after this season was over and we had bledsoe at a cheap salary and he could have played sg/pg just like Phoenix is using bledsoe and dragic and it works unbelievably.

This article really doesn't present an accurate picture or a fair benchmark.

The reality is though, if we weren't going to make bledsoe a starter he needed to go somewhere else. Unfortunately him and Paul played really well together, and it would have worked great if we picked up a big time 3 point shooter like a Korver.

Diamond909
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Thinking about what happen to Bledsoe, kind of remind me of the situation with The Thunder, and Harden. Money issues, needed to shine more so they shipped him which set them back from winning against The Heat, that's just my opinion.

Harden is over Bledsoe of coarse!

I just hope we just not pass the first round but go further.

cleepers
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Not sure why any team would want to S&T for him since he'd have been unrestricted and they could just pick him up anyway. Unless of course they wanted to offload a bad contract... or if either team was over the cap, which is prohibited in the new CBA anyway, right?

FightOnRon
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Exactly. If not for money,Bled would be running this team now. But I am happy with the way it worked out with DC and JJ

tense2
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I agree.

FYI, tax paying teams (not teams over the Cap) are subject to more restrictions:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q23

Agent0
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I'd prefer Bledsoe as my 6th man off the bench in a Jamal Crawford type role, playing close to 30 MPG. He can play PG and SG and guard the SG position well enough where it isn't an issue. If I just want a backup PG to play when Paul isn't on, I'd prefer Collison at <$2M/year in that role.

In terms of record, we do have to be aware of who we are playing. I can't remember the teams we played last season, but the best wins we've had since Paul has been out is Dallas the game he went out, and again beating them by 2.

The other wins are teams in like to .300 - .400 winning percentage range. A 21-20 Bulls team that just traded Deng so I don't know if they are a .500 level team without him, and a 22-20 Raptors team that lost DeRozan and Patterson half way through the game so that obviously hurts. I don't want to check who we played with Bledsoe cause I'm lazy, but it's hard to make a conclusion on such a sample.

That's first, second, this season we have a much better coach, a much better DeAndre Jordan, Griffin is better, and we have that J.J. Redick guy who came back just as Paul went away. So it's not like we're making a direct comparison. If you're saying transplant this same team with Doc, DJ better and playing more, Redick at SG, but just switch Collison and Bledsoe, yes, I think they are still about 9-3 without Paul (if we count the Dallas game as without Paul though he was there for part of it).

The other wins outside of the okay ones were: Boston, New York, LA Lakers, Detroit, Orlando. The best record was Detroit 17-23 (.425). The Clippers with rookie Blake and when Gordon was healthy, with Vinny coaching were better than a .425 win percentage team. So better Blake, better Jordan, fat better coaching, Redick, Crawford off the bench, and whether it is Bledsoe or Collison at PG, that team is most likely going to beat 5/6 of those teams (lost to Charlotte).

Agent0
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Money was only an issue because they didn't see him as a starter or high minute backup. They saw him as a backup PG who was probably maxing out under 20 MPG and paying $6M+ for a backup PG made no sense if he's playing less than half the game.

Money isn't an issue if you saw him as your starting SG or as your PG/SG 6th man off the bench playing 28-30+ MPG (like Ginobili's role). Fit was also an issue in that Doc really wanted a Ray Allen type runner at a wing position for his offense, and if you start Bledose at SG, you don't get that, and there aren't many SF's let alone available ones who can play that role.

cleepers
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^ Personally, I don't dig the idea of a starting backcourt under 6 feet tall and I like what Jamal brings as a 6th man and 4th Q scoring option, so I think we made the right call.

In terms of bang for the buck, I think Collison's been incredible.

CapsNClips
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Just wait til you guys see how good Collison will be next year when he's playing for a contract.

Diamond909
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^ hahahaha!

Steady818
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In essence he has a player option for next year so this is pretty much another contract year for him..

tense2
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Don't think it would have been an issue (with the way he's playing with GD), but the Clippers obviously felt other wise. Anyway happy we have DC as our back up PG. He's been an excellent value.

Agent0
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Bledsoe is 6'0 without shoes. I think many times we focus too much on head height when basketball is played with your arms / hands, which is why people get confused about short guys who play bigger than their height and taller guys who play smaller than their height. That's why Elton Brand was never actually undersized and isn't undersized even as a C really.

Redick:

Standing reach: 8'1.5"

Wingspan: 6'3.25"

Bledsoe

Standing Reach: 8'2"

Wingspan: 6'7.5"

If they both put their hands up, Bledsoe's hand is 0.5 inches higher. Redick has a wingspan shorter than his height and 4.25" less than Bledsoe. Bledose has more length both vertically and horizontally. He also has a higher vertical. So if you're talking about defense, Bledsoe is contesting shots better, he's higher up, he can contest from a bit further away because his wingspan is 4.25" longer. Bledsoe is the same/similar effective basketball height as all these SG's: Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, O.J. Mayo, J.J. Redick, etc

So despite the head height making us think we are less undersized at SG, we are actually more undersized at SG because no one is contesting shots or shooting with the top of their head.

I like what Jamal brings too, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and by that I mean a good team is able to win in multiple ways, not just reliant on one style. Of course the easiest way is to have a 3 Guard rotation of CP/Bledsoe/Jamal. Bledsoe goes out early and Jamal comes in, then when CP goes out, you have Bledsoe and Jamal with the bench.

Then you just get a third PG in case of injury and your PG/SG rotation is:

PG: Paul 36 mins / Bledsoe 12 mins

SG: Bledsoe 20 minutes / Crawford 28 mins

Total: Paul (36), Bledsoe (32), Crawford (28)

Now am I mad or discontent? No, I'm not, but like I said in summer and I've said many times, I still would have loved to see that Paul/Bledsoe backcourt because they are a terror defensively together, and would be even more so with a rejuvenated DJ and Doc coaching. Of course my idea also included packaging Caron with our 25th pick to get another SF like Ariza, or go after Frye as a backup PF/C and then bring in a free agent 3/D SF.

Collison is great value though. He might be a one year stop-gap because obviously he isn't planning to be underpaid forever, hence the player option next year, but for this year it is great value.

Icecoldclipper
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The way he is playing now I think he is more likely to opt out this year. He talked about money before he took the chance this year but he rebuilt his stock playing with Paul hurt.

Miss Bled and in hindsight we did not have to trade him and could of got more and just done a lone Butler for JJ trade. Love the defense from Bledsoe but I like the fact Collison seems more in control more often and that mid range J helps the second unit.

pageC4
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Well put. I think we have a tendency to remember the good things about Bledsoe, such as the amazing defensive plays and speed. However, we conveniently forget that his passes were out of control and led to turnovers.

The way I look at it is that we did exactly what the Oklahoma City Thunder did when the dealt Harden away and found a great replacement in Kevin Martin. Like Harden, Bledsoe was bound to get a payday elswhere and a starters role. And like the Harden situation, we found someone to give similar production at the position we needed. Kevin Martin may not have been the same player that James Harden was, and Collison is not the same player Bledsoe is. However, for the production they both gave their teams didn't suffer for it.

Credit our front office for getting Collison.

DocHollywood
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I agree with everything you just said, except where did you hear the Bucks would have traded Redick for Butler straight across?

CP3Heliflopter
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That deal was never on the table so never.

Anyway I am happy with Redick + Collison vs just Bledsoe by himself. Wouldn't be surprised if some team threw a big contract at Bledsoe too.

clipperboy24
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Bledsoe is restricted. Otherwise I would agree. High profile restricted free agents have proven to be worthwhile.

CapsNClips
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How much longer do we have to talk about Bledsoe and that trade? This is probably the first time in forever that Clipper fans don't have to reminisce about "what could've been" in regards to our team and we can actually enjoy what we have.

We have the best PG that's ever donned a Clippers jersey on our team for the next 5 years, yet we talk about that other PG more.

tense2
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Yep, absolutley never. Don't know where that rumor came from.

ClipperPostman
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Bledsoe as a starting 2 sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

A Shooting guard who can't Shoot. Who would want that?

Honestly I liked bledsoe, but I'd take JJ redicks shooting

over Bledsoe coming off the bench anyday.

We got killed last year because we couldn't shoot. Teams

just pack the paint on blake, and that is it.

Now that we have legitimate shooting threats I see us

actually being able to win a Championship.

Doc noticed this as well which is why he kept trying

to find a Shooting big man. The first 2 didn't work out,

but Turk looks like he will fit nicely.

We can now put 4 shooters around blake. Something

we have NEVER seen before.

And with Blake dominating everyone in 1 v 1 in the post

at this point, that strategy could work to perfection.

Icecoldclipper
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The Bucks absorbed Butlers contract a month after the trade to Phoenix because I guess they want the veteran leadership and wanted to bring him home. Phoenix only took Ish Smith a player making under a mil to dump Butler and with the Clippers they did not demand to get Bledsoe (if they did they caved) and in the three team deal they only got 2 2ND ROUNDERS. Phoenix should of never been part of the deal looking back and could of been Butler and a couple of 2nd rounders for Sign and Trade JJ Redick. To add to that the Bucks gave the Suns a C prospect from overseas to get Caron Butler in Viacheslav Kravtsov in part of the Ish Smith deal.

It may have taken longer but if the Bucks wanted Butler they could of dealt with us for JJ and been a much more simple deal. Its not about keeping Bledsoe but now taking his potential and value and getting any SF wanted in the league.

Look at this as is Bledsoe by himself equal in value to a Jared Dudley? I mean in a stand alone trade the Clippers better come out with a Suns first rounder with the potential Bledsoe had going.

Its all hindsight now but in truth Redick was the major target, we gave Phoenix Bledsoe for taking the contract of Butler but in the end it looks like it should of never happened

Icecoldclipper
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The deal did not happen but it could have based on Butler now being on the Bucks. They traded for the guy a month later. It would be different if they sold a longer contract to take Butlers expiring but they gave up two much cheaper and younger players. With us they could of got Butler and some 2nd rounders.

MunoValente
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The timing of the deals was important, they only wanted Butler after they completely struck out in free agency. At the time the Bledsoe trade was made Jennings and Ellis were still free agents and the Bucks had enough space to go after outside free agents as well. Only after they failed utterly in the free agent market did they agree to trade for Butler. Redick was in high demand and would have been long gone well before the time the Bucks gave up and took Butler. They didn't really want Butler, they basically just took him because nobody else was left.

MunoValente
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He was pretty much playing SG for the Suns, Dragic is a PG. As long as the PG can shoot it is fine and Paul and Dragic can both shoot.

Redick is fine though, Bledsoe was inconsistent, has been injury prone, his contract situation is up in the air and nobody really knows if Doc would have trusted him to play bigger minutes as SG.

DocHollywood
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The Bucks were never open to trading Redick for Butler as the three team trade was coming together. They realized they wanted him much later on unfortunately.

Icecoldclipper
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I realize its about timing that is why its all in hindsight. We could of waited and JJ walked elsewhere but would of been nice if the Bucks told us they had interest in Butler.

Clipperjan
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Found the following article on Collison. What do you think at this?

NBA

NBA Rumors: Darren Collison could opt out of contract

BY BRYAN ROSE - JAN 24TH, 2014 AT 4:09 PM

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When Darren Collison signed with the Los Angeles Clippers this past offseason, he knew playing time would be limited. But for the chance to backup Chris Paul on a Los Angeles Clippers team that had title thoughts? It was worth the downgrade in floor time.

Little did Collison or anybody else know that Paul would miss an extended period of the season and the backup point guard would now be flushed into a starting role.

Not only was Collison given the starting nod with Paul out, but he's flourished in it, which has Jeff Caplan wondering if Collison will opt-out of his contract at season end.

Collison's deal was for two years, but includes a player opt-out clause after the first season. Given his successful play, it would see difficult to think Collison would accept a small increase next year when he could likely secure a much bigger deal.

Collison signed a two-year deal with L.A and has been a steady reserve. He is earning $1.9 million this season and holds a player option for next season with a slight raise. If he continues to play well as the Clippers' starter and then again when he returns to a reserve role, it will be interesting to see if Collison chooses to opt out, and if so, if another team attempts to make the third time the charm for the 5-foot-11 Collison as a starter.

Topics: Darren Collison, Los Angeles Clippers

Silasie
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^

That is one of the dis advantages of a player playing well..........kind of ironic.

tense2
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They were only interested in Butler when they couldn't attract anyone else. Our timing was perfect.

uncool
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Collison alone isn't better than Bledsoe, but Collison, JJ & Dudley at $4mil/per is way better than Bledsoe, Chauncey & Caron at $8mil/per!

Agent0
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Repped High Quality Post

Basketball positions don't really have any true meaning. It's about getting complimentary players.

A SG who can't shoot? Cool, get a PG, SF and PF who can shoot and it's no problem.

Dwayne Wade played for a good amount of time as a SG who couldn't shoot, still isn't much of a consistent outside shooter, so Miami got players like Jason Kapono (of course they could have gotten better options) at SF.

Part of why Bledsoe also works so well in Phoenix is that Channing Frye is one of the best shooting PF's in the game and then off the bench, you have the Morris brothers as two PF's who can shoot also! So he wouldn't have that same luxury here on the Clippers and wouldn't be as effective.

Still, there's no actual issue with a SG who can't shoot as long as you balance your team right. It is only a problem if someone is building a team and they have no clue about complimenting players.

The only time you throw out fit and complimenting is if the talent level of the players are so great where their ability outweighs any fit concerns. EG: Lebron James and Dwyane Wade as teammates.

Agent0
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Well, we sort of knew the situation going in that he was taking a pay-cut, so I can't expect we would be surprised if he opted out to get more money. Now if he opts-in to make less again, that would be nice.

He can certainly get up to $4-5M somewhere else as a cheap starting PG, or if they have a big starting PG, as a high minute backup PG, and then the starting PG plays next to him at SG.

I don't know if any team has a starting PG big enough where they would want to do that though.

CapsNClips
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Collison really throws the term "blessed" around loosely, doesn't he.

ClipperSam
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I like DC but hands down Bledsoe is by far the better player.

Here are players the Clippers should have tried to keep

Zach Randolf

Eric Gordon

Recently

Nick Young

Reggie Evans

Eric Bledsoe

I believe if we had these players with the current squad we would be even much better

Mistwell
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We would not be much better with Eric Gordon. Please....

As for Bledsoe, remember he costs much MUCH more than Collison, with similar production. I think people forget, we're paying Collison Darren $1.9 million. Bledsoe is going to demand a very VERY high contract. Even if Collison opts out, take whatever he will get, and double or triple it for Bledsoe's contract.

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