What Is Wrong With The Clippers Bench? (P. 2)

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Icecoldclipper
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Bench had been great with just an off night againt the Nuggets. Reggie did not shoot well but he damn sure hustled in all areas which is all we ever wanted from Dudley. I was amazed when he went up to break up the JJ Hickson lob dunk attempt and for a G/F he is great on the glass. Also have to take into account he had three d.n.p nights after career high against the Lakers and had a better game against the Cavs. He should be commended for playimg hard last game even with an off night.

Glen boxes out and creates space for Granger and Turk to get rebounds. If he could limit the fouls a little more even better. It does look like he would be better paired with a length C but he should be okay come playoffs.

ClipperKyle32
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I think we had better backup bigs last season. Odom and Turiaf were great for us last season. I wish we had resigned Turiaf. He had Twirl that got everyone going. Our bench last season was....

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cleepers
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Merged.

ClipperKyle32, please check if the topic already exists before creating new threads. Particularly when it was you who started both threads.

Thanks.

ClipperKyle32
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Here Are Some Notable Free Agents in 2014 We Could Possibly Look At SMALL FORWARD Point Guards Big Men I really like Jordan Hill. A lot of energy. We should really take a look at him. ....

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jarca
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Marion will fit in nicely with our squad. Pierce is good but I'm scared he might turned into granger when he gets here. So if I'm gonna take a chance with an old guy, I'll stick to Marion who can still play defense

FightOnRon
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So who decides if we can buy any players? I can't see the temp CEO having the right to spend DTS's money to buy us players and we surely won't have new owners in July, so except for those under contract (if they do not walk), who decides what we can and cannot afford? Where would the cash come from ?

pageC4
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There are a lot of problems with the NBA owning a team. Let's hope that the Clippers can expedite removal of the team from Sterling and find a new buyer for the team.

Icecoldclipper
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Lack of length and so many SFs. The Hedo injury may have been bigger than we thought.

itsLuigi
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birdman, jordan hill, livingston and marion would be perfect on the team

ClipperKyle32
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I think its safe to say that we need to reconstruct this team and keep CP, Blake, and DJ. We need a SG with size and a 3&D Small Forward.

I think we need to let DC go, Get rid of Dudley, Barnes, and Granger and Hollins

tense2
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And the ONE trick pony Crawford. Defense, defense.

ClipperKyle32
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I say keep him. Our bench was fantastic last season , but we had defense with it. Jamal was our bench scorer and Bledsoe,Barnes,Odom, and Turiaf played the defense

23efren23
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Trade Blake for David west Paul George and imahimi

tense2
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He's well north of thirty...and he's still a ONE trick pony. Time for change.

tense2
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Indiana shouldn't and wouldn't make that trade.

ClipperKyle32
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Keep DC! I regret saying that

ClipperPostman
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You don't need a 2 guard off the bench that plays d. You need one that can score, and there isn't a better bench 2 then Crawford in the league.

Most role players are one trick pony, but Crawford is not because he can score shooting and slashing to the rim. A one trick pony is more of jj who can only catch and shoot

tense2
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Their both one trick ponies and aren't best suited for starting rolls unless in emergencies (injuries).

Hopefully we can get an defensive starting SG who can also shoot. Then you can keep one of the one trick ponies for off the bench time.

toohipcliptoslip
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Keep Crawford. A lot of our bench fizzled. Remember Jamison? Baby, Hedo, Granger, Jamal, DC on paper could start. Unfortunately the only paper available is Charmin. Granger sooner or later will come back. You can't have been that good and now be that bad as a young guy. He has to improve.

tense2
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Good luck with that theory.

Again, You can afford to keep one of the trick ponies, if you find an above average starting SG who can play defense and shoot.

namzug
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Personally I think Granger was use to getting a bit of star treatment in the past and know he is getting scrub treatment. He get's called for every little touch foul, where I remember that he would get praised for similar plays in Indiana in the past. Not to mention that he probably feels pressure that he has to play well to earn more minutes. He is still doing the little things that we lack a lot of the time, boxing out and plays decently defensively outside of a lot of the fouls.

fullcourt
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Crawford is a above average sg that can play defense and shoot .

Agent0
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Well, I wouldn't really say too much about Crawford's defense, except for when he's contesting Caron Butler's shots, lol

fullcourt
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and I would say that there have been far too many times now where jamal has been on the floor when we needed stops to win the game and we have gotten those stops. Is he the best defender HECK NO but these mythical guards that some people keep insinuating are out there but ARE NOT is just getting ridiculous.

There is only one Tony Allen and ironically the Grizzlies are at home because they didn't have a Jamal Crawford type guard .

We have a sg heck we have TWO we need a sf and the fact that people think there are guards that are better than JJ or jamal didn't watch the NBA this season.

Jamal has 18 pts 5 rebs 3 ass 2 stl and 2 blocks but obviously SG is the issue not the fact that our SF went 0-6

CapsNClips
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Well said. A Tony Allen type player would be great on this roster, but not at the expense of losing a spark plug off the bench in Jamal Crawford.

Tony Allen is great for late game defensive stops. He still can't check Durant for a full game though, Durant was still dropping 30 on him. Chris Paul did his best Tony Allen impersonation tonight and shut Durant down when it mattered.

I'd rather have Durant get 40 and Jamal get 18 than have Durant get 30 and Tony Allen get 5. Sometimes you've got to fight fire with fire.

Agent0
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You're beating up a strawman here as I don't think anyone is suggesting we need Tony Allen, but there are more guys than Tony Allen who can defend. Actually there are guys out there who can defend and aren't inept at offense or shooting. To me it is about balance, so I do agree with tense in that sense. This isn't something I'm just saying now, I said it in the off-season too, and we have overcome it, partly because of offense and because of well, Chris Paul, but we are too easy to get mis-matched against bigger guards and against SF's.

We still need to balance our SG/SF position, it certainly won't be easy, but it isn't impossible, and I'm not saying this to hate on Crawford or Redick or anyone, it is just the reality. If only Jamal was a SG/SF (size wise) with defense, and not strictly a SG who can sort of play PG, it would certainly alleviate a bit of the issues. We'll see how it is handled in the off-season, but yes, we do put ourselves at a bit of a defensive disadvantage with the make-up of the roster because our SG's are both smallish, both average at best to below average on defense, for different reasons, and our SF's can't stick with SG's effectively so we can't just switch matchups easily.

Now, I agree in that since we don't have scoring off the bench from another position, then Crawford very useful, definitely. That doesn't mean it is the best set up. There are a few ways we can aim to "fix it":

1) Start a more defensive / shooting SG who could also has the size or at least tenacity to play SF and Jamal comes off the bench as the scoring threat, then pair the starter up with a more pure shooter or scoring threat type player at SF. Jamal and the SG can be played together, but Redick is already signed long term, so this might not be a real option.

2) Get a better defensive SF that is also quick enough to guard SG's so that when you start Redick, you can put him on an opposing wing based on easier matchup. This is the most reasonable since Redick is signed and Jamal is also here

3) Let Jamal go in the future, get a SF who can create / score to come off the bench (Paul Pierce / Vince Carter type), get a defensive SG off the bench to balance out Redick, and have a long defensive SF in the startling lineup

Of course the question is who are these players?

SG: Arron Afflalo, Avery Bradley, Alec Burks, Courtney Lee, Gerald Henderson (meh 3PT shooter)

SG/SF (of vice versa): Wilson Chandler, Trevor Ariza, Terrence Ross (not happening), Mo Harkless

Athletic / long SF: Marvin Williams, Al Aminu, DeMarre Carroll

Obviously other ones that are probably not going to be let go like Danny Green, Wesley Matthews, Chandler Parsons, etc..

I'm not suggesting these are all attainable players, but these are the non-star type guys out there who could fit the bill

CapsNClips, I'm not the biggest fan of quoting points with no context. 18 pts isn't 18 pts, isn't 18 pts. 18 pts on 18 FGA is a totally different impact than 18 pts on 13 FGA. Also, Memphis isn't at home because they didn't have a Jamal Crawford type guard, lol, they are at home because their whole offense isn't very good, and they didn't have Zach in game 7 too, so who knows what that would have done. If they had Jamal instead, well, Durant's efficiency climbs, and if you're expecting Jamal to match Durant in efficiency to make up for how much Allen limited him, I'm not sure about that defensive strategy.

Really the end is that we should try and achieve better balance, and yes, it is hard to have both Redick and Crawford as your SG's defensively because they both require minutes and you will end up having to go small with one at SF, and it is a mis-match. Is it something we can alleviate? Maybe, maybe not. I don't necessarily think we should move Crawford, but I do believe that it is best for a balanced roster to choose between Redick and Jamal, but it isn't easy. Also, Jamal is a decent bargain in the end anyways.

ClipperPostman
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The problem isn't sg IMO. It's the 3. The top scorers now adays are at the 3 and you need a big strong 3 who is athletic, quick, and strong. We are the only team left in the playoffs without a superior 3 with the exception of Portland and we see where they are.

Who doesn't fit in this picture at all.

Lebron

Durant

Leonard

Ariza

Barnes

That's where the league is going.

Agent0
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Interestingly enough Batum is the only one of Portland's main three guys that has been productive vs SA, there's nothing wrong with Batum, they aren't where they are because of SF, they are where they are because after his first two big games, Aldridge hasn't really been killing it anymore, and it is a lot harder for Lillard against a team that plays defense. So really, just that SA is better.

I don't disagree that the SF is the problem, and I said it in my post, if we had SF's that could defend and then slide over to the SG to take on harder matchups, it changes how we can use these guys. Maybe we'll change that, maybe we won't, but the wing position in general needs to be balanced out, which is exactly what I said, we need to balance out the SG/SF position.

Now, why does it impact SG? Well our SG's make the most money at the SG/SF position, so we might have to shed some salary at SG in order to improve at SF to balance the roster, and there-in lies the issue.

Icecoldclipper
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Free Reggie! Its a serious head scratcher with the lack of production from other guys.

BaadMaster
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Let's be realistic for a change. With the new CBA and the relatively low salary cap -- coupled with players' high salaries -- the days of having an 1980's style Lakers or Celtics team with an All-Star at every position and a elite bench are gone forever. Once you have a high salaried "Big Three," whether it is Clippers, Heat or whatever, you likely will have a "Bench of Bums." That we have the Sixth Man of the Year AND an elite Big Three is unusual.

I think this is about as good a bench as we can conjure up under the new NBA rules. The fact that Granger has not panned out -- thus far -- and Hedo is injured does not impune our bench. It is about as good as you can expect when you have and an expensive Big Three.

BTW, re. starters -- do you really think if Matt Barnes were a 45% shooter from downtown we could afford him?

This is about as good a club as can be afforded under the CBA unless we draft some undiscovered gem. In fact, the team is so good a team of NBA refs has to be unleashed to get OKC to 2-2.

Go Clippers!

Silasie
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Not forgetting that DC is on that same bench too.

fullcourt
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SF is definitely the problem and as I said before this line is thinking is totally unrealistic. You don't need a small forward that can slide over to SG you need a SF that can be a SF on both sides of the ball.

The tougher matchups in the NBA are not at SG they are at SF. But ironically what gives us an advantage on most nights is that Crawford is actually a tough cover at SG but the position is second only to Centers in terms of lack of depth in the NBA. SG is a thin position and we have two of the better ones and they aren't making a ton of money. We are one of the fortunate teams to actually have legit talent at the position

The key going forward for this team is to either draft a SF that we can develop or hope that this season is leaving an impression on would be a free agents and a legit SF agrees to sign here chasing a title.

Agent0
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What I like about a SF that can slide to SG is that is usually means he can also guard PG's, and it means if matchup favors and it will benefit the team, we don't have to make Paul guard the opposing PG for most of the game if we don't want to. So he gets the luxury that a lot of other PG's get against him, which is to rest a little on defense.

In terms on scoring from SF vs SG, it depends on the team.

The East obviously has Wade, but with Lebron also on his team, you put your SF on Lebron.

If we're looking at SG's that can score:

James Harden, Dwayne Wade, DeMarr DeRozan, Joe Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Eric Bledsoe (can include him now), Kevin Martin, Manu Ginobili, Nick Young, Gerald Green, Vince Carter (doing dual position off the bench), Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon (healthy, is that real?), Arron Afflalo, Rodney Stuckey, Tyreke Evans | Young guys: Dion Waiters, Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, Alec Burcs (after the season he just had). Those are all guys that will give you 18-19+ pts in starters minutes. All in the "top 100" per minute scorers in the NBA. That's 19 players, that's not bad at all, and we have two from our team you could add. I don't think SG is doing as bad as people think, it's just because there aren't superstars. Borderline: Avery Bradley, Wesley Matthews, Jordan Crawford all putting up about 17 pts/36 minutes, yea, Bradley has really improved as a scorer. So there's at least 24 players at SG who minute for minute are fairly decent level scorers and J.R. Smith was awful this season, but he would be on there too in a regular year. Really, almost every team has a SG who if they played starters minutes would average 17-19 pts or more. SF has guys that will drop 30, but most teams have SF's who score in the low teen range.

To be honest, I'm actually surprised, didn't realize I've underrated how much scoring talent and not star, but borderline All-Star / above average offensive SG talent there is.

I definitely agree that SF is the top heavy scoring / star position because we have Lebron, Durant and Carmelo. After those three, the next best scoring SF is Paul George, and then someone like Rudy Gay rounds out the not so old list of scoring SF's, with Paul Pierce as probably the only other true scoring SF. We'd also have to add Deng, Jeff Green, and Danilo Gallinari who is currently injured. While SF has 3 guys who are in the top 5, if we're talking night to night, you are facing a tougher SG matchup, but we want to think playoffs primarily. OKC is going to be our competing team, and in the finals, you're very likely to face a Lebron led team, so if we're talking about which position, the it is SF, but players with positional versatility are the best players to have.

I agree that a title chasing SF would be nice, now of course, the title chasing SF's that we can get for cheap who we might have thought would help are:

Danny Granger (who is already on our team and kinda meh)

Paul Pierce

That's why I said if we want to improve the balance, it might be at the expense of a SG. We're paying $11.7M to our SG's and $7.5M to our SF's. Our SG's actually have value, our SF's, not so much. Now, we have the hope of internal development through Bullock or drafting someone this coming draft (do we have our pick) that fits the bill. As much as some of our fans think we can dump our junk and get good players, we can't combine our two mediocre and now well below average (Dudley) SF's to get back a good SF unless it is some special circumstance.

Maybe our best bet is moving Dudley with Bullock (if we don't think he has enough to become our future SF) for cap space, then if there is a SF we want, try and offer a team Matt Barnes (expiring) as a stop gap SF for them in a sign and trade for a guy we want, eg: Trevor Ariza. The reality might just be that we can't necessarily fill the position as adequately as we would like, and that's just what it is.

tense2
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No he's not. But, yes he can shoot and he does without malice, lol. His career FGA per game is 20.11 PER48 (this year 23.2). His career FG% is .411 (this year .416). His career 3PT% is .351 (this year .361). But he does have a killer cross over. Smile

Average SG FGA per game=17.3 (PER48). Average SG FG%=.431. Average SG 3PT%.362. Plus he's a below average rebounder for his position and he turns the ball over slightly worse then the average SG. He is a above FT shooter while getting to the FT line at a slight above average rate of 5.3 to 4.5 for the average SG.

And yes he can play defense, just not very good.

CapsNClips
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Well that slightly above average SG has saved our ass more times than I can count.

57 win season and six playoff wins so far and he's our 4th best player. That's above average IMO.

tense2
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Call it what you want or makes you feel good, it's your opinion and that's cool. But as a guy who's slightly below average for a SG in the FG/3PT%, he'll shoot you in some games/shoot you out of some games. Won't help much in other areas. He is what he is. Just replying to the post.

cleepers
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^ I'm just curious as to how he would rank among bench SG's, seeing as how his role isn't exactly comparable to Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade or James Harden... and neither is his salary.

Taking into account health, productivity, crunch-time poise and "bang for the buck"... I'd be really interested to see a list of more impactful 2-guards who aren't on cheap rookie deals.

I guess Darren Collison counts... if and when he plays the 2. That guy is a flat-out steal!

pageC4
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Hedo adds a lot of versatility to this club. Right before he went down he was nailing shots on a consistent basis. Does anyone have any news on his return timetable? I miss our big Turk.

fullcourt
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This is how I know when people don't understand the game and try to use their ability to read stats as some sort of accreditation that they do.

AI shot 42% and I'm quite sure that is guys like Mo Pete ,Kerry Kittles ,Brent Barry Ricky Davis shot better than him. In no way in this world were they better players

Every Time someone goes into the posting of percentages it screams they have never played because I guarantee you that no coach or player is thinking Jamal Crawford only shoots 41% for his career so we don't have to worry about him we will instead focus our defensive attention Matt barnes whose a 45% career shooter

the inability to put stats in context is what is killing basketball.

tense2
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BS. Been watching BB probably longer then you've been alive, way before advanced stats were invented. Played the game too.

Gave you statistical facts on what an average SG produces as far as FG% and 3PT% as compared to your statement regarding Jamal. If it's your opinion he's above average...fine, what ever makes you feel good.

A.I...we all know what he was really good at...taking shots and a lots of them. But hey I'm still a fan of his. wink

A_DOG_NAMED_BUD
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@Clipperkyle32

Ariza and Deng would be great SFs for our team. I wouldn't mind Marion, but I would've loved that move about 3-5 years ago.

ClipperKyle32
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I might have to revisit about Jamal and DC. I think we could do without them possibly. They are gonna make me eat this later , but I still think we could be a lot....

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