Doc Rivers Has Been A Mediocre GM (P. 3)

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MunoValente
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It's too bad we don't have anyone shooting as good as Green did last year, his three point shooting is down about .100 this year.

Butler had a good 3pt% last year, but his two shooting was weak. Dudley's overall shooting numbers are better than Butler's, even though his 3pt% is worse, because he's been much better on 2 point shots. He's been good at making pump fake, step in twos. His career 3 point rate is about what Butler did last year, so hopefully he can get his crap together and get back making threes at that level. Looking at his shot chart his year, it looks like a lot of his drop off is from the left side of the court, I wonder why he would be struggling more from one side of the court but not the other.

Would be nice if Chris Paul could find his 3 point shooting touch from his last couple years in New Orleans.

cleepers
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I don't think we should be looking at our 3pt shooting in a vacuum...

J.J Redick - 63/159 - 39.6%

Jamal Crawford - 126/350 - 36%

Jared Dudley - 69/195 - 35.4%

Matt Barnes - 38/125 - 30.4%

Chris Paul - 42/119 - 35.3%

Darren Collison - 41/109 - 37.6%

Byron Mullens - 13/39 - 33.3%

Antawn Jamison - 8/41 - 19.5%

Willie Green - 25/77 - 32.5%

Reggie Bullock - 11/34 - 32.4%

Blake Griffin - 10/33 - 30.3%

Hedo Turkoglu - 3/9 - 33.3%

Two of the worst offenders (Mullens and particularly Jamison) are gone now. If JJ had been healthy, he'd have at least as many attempts (and probably a lot more hits) as Jamal. Reggie and Turk's sample is a little small to draw any solid conclusions, but for those who want to give Reggie more minutes, pause and look at those numbers.

Bottom line... Barnes needs to stop jacking them up, CP3 will hit them when it matters, Blake's are usually on busted plays, Willie and Reggie won't be relied on come playoff time (we hope), Dudley usually gets better looks when JJ is on the floor and JJ is the first option from deep who brings the whole team's averages up.

All of this, and we still shoot them at the "massive" disparity of 1.5% better than our opponents.

3pt shooting is not an issue for this team... rebounding is.

Kerley
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I think Reggie suffers from lack of rhythm. It's hard for anyone to get their stroke right when they barely play. But his form and shot are damn near perfect. His release is just as fast as some of the best shooters I've seen. His problem isn't skill, it's time. Ironically Bullock reminds me of the player Barnes looked like last year. Scrappy defender, good 3 point shooter and great slasher.

I think the way to fix Dudley is to just make him shoot those long 2's. His step in jumper is pretty nice and it looks almost automatic. He could be useful here until he gets that 3 point shot back. The only way to fix Barnes is to not quit on him. He's the kind of guy that gets in his own head. I'd just ride it out with Barnes.

Icecoldclipper
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By the sample size and added minutes compared to Dudley and Barnes he should be able to surpass them as a deep ball shooter.

Agent0
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I agree Sacks hasn't proven anything, but are these knocks on him?

Reggie was also moved due to minutes issues, he wanted more minutes than he was getting and we got a future second round pick out of the deal. I don't know if it revisionist history or what, but Reggie played 56/66 games due to some DNP's, and 13.8 MPG.

There's sort of this weird aura around Evans, but he had DNP's in 5 of the last 25 games. He played 9.8 MPG over the 20 games that he played and 8.2 MPG over the last 10 games he played. He averaged 1.8 fouls, 1.6 pts, 3.3 rebs, 0.6 assists and 0.6 turnovers over that span. 2 fouls every 10 minutes is a foul out in about 30 minutes of play. The team went 16-9, a 52 win pace which was ahead of the 50 win pace for the season while Reggie played a minimal role in those last 25 games, and Paul missed a couple of games there.

Reggie matched up well against a guy like Randolph but was useless against the disciplined Spurs and hurt the team on offense in his minutes that series because of the lack of spacing. He wasn't and isn't this super instrumental missing bench / big man piece people keep making him out to be. He fouled too much, clogged the lane, couldn't finish, was a poor defender at C because of his lack of height and length and against quicker guys at PF he fouled too much. A post injury Randolph was a good matchup for him, but Reggie isn't a player that is a staple in your rotation because of his poor offense, both from a spacing and finishing stand-point and the fact that he's just an average defender despite all the physicality. Great hustle, rebounding machine because that's all he focuses on, and set good screens when he wasn't fouling, but he's always been a better fit with a big who plays more of an outside game.

Good GM's have some sort of connection with their coach because you don't want to sign players the coach won't play. The signing of Odom had he panned out replaced the need for Reggie or Martin really. VDN wanted a player who could defend but also help stretch the floor and take pressure off Blake and Paul, especially with the view of how the Spurs defended the Clippers that past playoffs where they packed the paint and said "okay do something".

Nick Young was replaced by a better Jamal Crawford. Crawford scores better, passes better, and is just plain better on offense. Both are equally poor on defense, so not really sure why that is a big deal. Having both would be unnecessary, only one made sense for this team, so that was a good move.

The Mo Williams trade? Odom was a risk, but an expiring one, Mo Williams trade value wasn't anything impressive because teams would rather just wait until his a free agent and sign him. Odom was one year removed from being 6th man of the year and going back to LA which was supposedly part of why he wasn't as productive. He didn't need to reproduce that, but he just needed to give like 10 pts, 7 rebs, 2 assists, 47-48% FG, 32-33% 3PT and solid defense in about 27 MPG as the primary big man backup. He came in fat, now we know he had drug issues, and he never found his offense and shooting, but the defense and rebounding was there.

MunoValente: Actually I think he'd be even worse as a GM, VDN reminds me of Isiah Thomas, all likability and people skills, but absolutely no substance.

Really? Hmm....

For example, Crawford signing as a 6th man, that was a logical move to get him instead of bringing back Young, which ironically I just mentioned in the previous post. VDN was part of that. Matt Barnes late in the season and for the price, great move, and I don't believe if VDN was in the mix Barnes would have been re-signed for his current contract. I think as a GM you have to know when to let go, even if a player has played well for you previously. Willie Green as a cheap plug in SG? Another good move. The Turiaf/Hollins combo as 3rd string C's seemed decent at the time. The finisher, and then the more defensive guy, but that wasn't so successful.

Lastly, Grant Hill again, that looked like a good signing at the time because we needed a defensive wing, and he had been playing that role well despite his age. Constant injuries obviously limited that, but in terms of the specific players abilities, the signings made sense in terms of trying to address the teams needs. Wing defense, floor spacing and more offense from the big man positions and more shooting.

The Lamar Odom signing was actually a smart signing if it had panned out, it was a risk, but he was an expiring, so the risk wasn't a prolonged one and Mo on the team was extremely redundant, so keeping him was of no value. If Odom hadn't been an idiot, that would actually have been a great trade.

Think of the Spurs trade for Boris Diaw. People praise it now, but at the time, Diaw was still known for riding his segway to practice and living in Charlotte restaurants or whatever. His FG% and 3PT% had dropped two seasons in a row, down to 41% FG and 27% 3PT while his turnovers had gone up, but he didn't have the mental and other personal issues of Odom that weren't specifically clear or easy to predict since Odom had been doing well for some years now.

FightOnRon
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Not to infringe on your first amendment rights,but would this not be easier if you just started the annual FIRE (Insert name here) Thread?

For this year the name will of course be Docs. Then we could have fun with that thread and get all these things (complaints, rants, defense of,praise for) under one thread then spread out over 3 or 4.

MunoValente
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I don't think VDN had much power over personnel decisions. He might have been part of sales team convincing guys to play here, but I don't he was the guy identifying who to go after in the first place.

Diaw was acquired for nothing, he was released by the Bobcats. I think giving talented players a chance with little to no risk is usually for worth it. It would be like giving Granger a go this year if he's released. He's mostly sucked this year, but there is always chance he bounces back. I think Odom was a great pickup last year, I think he played really good defense, he was our only big who combined playing smart on defense, with the length to challenge shots and the ability to rebound, we were something like 9 points per 100 possessions better on defense with Odom on the floor last year. Again though I don't know how much that has to do with Del Negro.

Agent0
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HCA

When you get to the higher rounds, HCA helps. When there's a match-up of evenly matched teams, any little advantage matters. You want to try and have as many advantages as possible. The fortitude to win a road game is also important, but with HCA you don't have the pressure of NEEDING to win a road game in order to proceed.

Last year

I thought the flaws were evident all season last years still, and the the downward trend in defense during the regular season was troubling. Last years hope mainly came from the fact that we probably could have beat Memphis with some better adjustments and if Blake didn't get injured, despite our poor defense. We lost because of defense, forget all the shooting, etc, you can't suck massively and defense and expect to win.

...still, last year's hope came from the fact that we could have beat Memphis and then OKC was missing Westbrook in the second round. We had no chance against SA again without proper perimeter defense and no big man who could spread the floor which means their defensive scheme would be more effective.

3PT shooting

It's a bit of a mixed bag, the difference in a minimal percentage 3PT shooting over a season could be the difference between winning one or two more games, and one more game might mean 2nd or 3rd or 3rd or 4th in the West, which also determines your first round opponent, etc, etc. So those little things end up mattering despite how seemingly insignificant. The team has good 3PT shooters, and it is true that since Barnes has attempt the 4th most three's on the team, he is hurting the numbers.

Without Barnes, the team is up 0.5% and at 34.8%. It is also true that if you take out Barnes, Jamison and Mullens, we're at 35.4%. We can't take out Barnes though because he is still here and will probably still keep chucking, but his numbers have been better (37%) as a starter, which also correlates with him getting healthier, etc. If he can balance out to about 34-35%, then that won't be bad. The thing is that despite less attempt's combined than Barnes, due to Jamison's 8/41, if you take out him and Mullens who are now gone, the team has shot 34.9% 3PT, not to mention Jackson's 1/14 and Morris' 0/7 which puts the team at 35.4% which would rank for 17th in the league and tied with OKC.

Now, that's not good enough, ideally we want >38% 3PT shooting from both SG and SF and want to be shooting 37% or higher ideally as a team.

Agent0
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I remember talks of Vinny being the main guy wanting Odom, and his increased role in directing the management in terms of who to go after last season. I don't think he has a bad eye for team needs. Even when you heard him speak, he knew what the team needed, whether or not he could coach it well enough is another story, but he was aware of the holes on the team, even some that people didn't give as much credence too.

He was a very mediocre coach though, but that's okay.

clippermitch
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My only gripe about Doc and the front office was trading Bledsoe too soon. He could have waited to see how Paul and Bledsoe could have played together.

If it didn't work out, he could have done a better trade at the deadline for Bledsoe and Caron's expiring deal.

Jerediscool
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^ I thought that whole topic was dead. For the millionth time, it was a money issue. As it was Bledsoe was already inline to get 7 to 10 mil a year, which we couldn't pay him. Better to get rid of him then when we could still get a JJ back. What if Bledsoe had gotten hurt (like he did)? We wouldn't be able to trade him for Jared Dudley alone! Bottom line, Doc made a choice and it worked out better than it could have, stop saying what if. All you "What-Iffers" are just eating away at yourselves living in a fantasy world of what could have happened. Doc is doing fine in his first year making personal decisions.

And to everyone who's still upset about the Mullens thing, who cares? We might get a second round pick out of it. If not, doesn't matter! He's gone.

CP3Heliflopter
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I think you underestimate how bad of a GM Isiah Thomas was. I don't think VDN would be nearly that bad.

clippermitch
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I'm not talking about what ifs. I'm talking about Doc's moves.

Bledsoe and Caron for JJ and Dudley is a wash.

Hedo for the rest of the season instead of a 10 day? Questionable.

10 day contracts to Sasha and Morris? Two scrubs!

Backup bigs Mullens and Jamison are now gone. Both were busts!

So what exactly has he done as a GM that's good?

clipperboy24
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You have a different opinion than many others get over it. I am of the opinion that Paul and Bledsoe would have been a perfect fit just like Dragic and Bledsoe are. Then we could have just kept Butler and has Crawford coming off the bench, signed Collison and drafted Reggie. Would have been a great lineup and we could have signed Earl Clark to come off the bench instead of Barnes, Ivan Johnson, James Johnson, and even Ryan Hollins if we needed to.

Also we could have resigned Bledsoe as we would have his bird rights.

Dunkathon
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The Bledsoe trade is done, and there's nothing we can do about it.

If anyone needs to get over anything, it's you.

Agent0
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Well, it maybe wouldn't go that way just because of minutes. If you keep Bledsoe, Collison is a different decision cause you now have another PG. Ideally you would go with a 3 guard rotation at PG/SG with Bledsoe and Paul staggering minutes a little so one is always on. Paul can play 34-35 MPG, Bledsoe 31-32 and Crawford 29-30 and no one has to play SF. You add Collison and now when healthy you have to find minutes for him as opposed to him at least automatically having the backup PG minutes. So Bledsoe would be the backup PG. So you'd probably get a PG requiring less minutes. Probably try and package Caron with Reggie for a player.

Too many variables though, but yes, that is past. If he wasn't seating, keeping him wasn't an option and Doc didn't have that vision.

Clipperfn4lf
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Honest question not trying to hate, but what is with the mystique of Doc as a coach. He was basically nothing before he got KG and Pierce. Not 100% sure why people thought he would be a huge game changer.

cleepers
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LOL at mentioning James Johnson. Guy lights us up for one quarter and all of a sudden people are talking like he was a desirable player last summer and we missed out on him. Revisionist history at its best.

kjavis
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TBH its to early to judge, ultimately Docs success/failure as a GM/Coach will be measured by our success/failure in the PO

06clippersfan
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A lot of people on here are overreacting.

I bet if Granger gets bought out and signs with the Clippers and if Big baby signs with the Clippers everyone on here will change their opinion on Doc being a horrible GM.

  1. People criticize Doc BC of the Dudley trade, Yes Dudley sucks but NO ONE saw that coming. Not his fault.

  2. We didn't trade for any big men. Why? BC we don't have anyone on this team with trade value!!!

If he doesn't address the SF and C position during the offseason then we can say Doc is a bad GM

MunoValente
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He was a good find for Memphis and I think he and the types of guys the Spurs pick up are why you want to for younger guys trying to catch break for your bottom of the roster spots rather than washed up veterans, because there is always a chance on the younger guys break out and become pretty good, unlike the Awtawn Jamisons and Turkoglu's of the world.

cleepers
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^ Seems like he was a good find for them, but I don't see how that is relevant to Doc's competence as a GM. He was waived by the Hawks during training camp and 29 other GM's ignored him - including Buford in San Antonio - until Memphis took a chance.

I didn't hear anybody on here screaming to sign Johnson in July, August, September or October, so it's disingenuous to insinuate that he was some coveted prize that our shitty GM let slip through his fingers.

If not picking him up is an argument for us having a crap GM, then 27 other GM's are equally crap, Danny Ferry is substantially worse for letting him go, and even Chris Wallace in Memphis is slow to act, since he left him rotting in the D-League for a month and a half before pulling the trigger while the Grizzlies slipped out of the playoff picture.

The knock on Olshey for missing out on Paul George is valid because many fans saw his potential, but this situation is nothing like that. Johnson is an inconsistent, borderline NBA player who struggled to make the rotation of 4 teams in 4 years, was repeatedly traded for low picks, eventually fell into the right system and is having a good run lately. If anything, he's been disappointing so far considering his draft position. By comparison, Bledsoe was taken 2 picks later the following year and is running the offense of a playoff-bound team now.

I guarantee that if Johnson had been a summer pickup for this team, the overwhelming reaction would have been: "WHO? WTF is Doc doing? We need proven vets!".

Hindsight is 20/20, but Doc has to run a team in real time.

Griffinforpresident
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With Big Baby on board and possibly Granger, I believe whoever created this thread is eating crow right about now.

calipublicist
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Definite misfires on Jamson, Mullens. I won't say Dudley has been a bust until the season is over. I think he needs more time to be healthy. Let's not forget, Olshey was the guy who signed Ryan Hollins and Willie Green. Y U C K !

WinningBasket
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Doc's signing of Glen Davis is redemption for the Mullens-Jamison experiment. There are two more roster spots left. Let's see what Doc has up his magic sleeve.

wessleejr
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A lot of us here think they are better than Doc in decision making.

FightOnRon
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I know I am better,

then my wife,at decision making. If I were better then a sports GM,I wouldn't be sitting here typing this on my computer while watching Blade Runner.

FightOnRon
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I think one thing about Doc is he obviously knows where his mistakes were made and seems to be fixing them or trying. With our payroll there is only so much to be done. I do wonder how much of the current roster was also influenced by CP3 and part of getting him to sign,and maybe CP3 is the not so great Gm , just the best PG in the NBA.

Silasie
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He's certainly looking a bit better in the GM department after signing Big Baby!!

tense2
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Sometimes it takes a little time to get the nuances of the job. He's trotting in the right direction...at the moment.

toohipcliptoslip
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Repped High Quality Post

Bad GM?

  1. Jamison was a good gamble. He did OK for LAL last season. He COULD score. He is a year too old. Good gamble

2 We all knew Mullens was a long shot gamble (pun intended?) We lost

3 Dudley was a great acquisition. he just took a dump in his shorts. You can't predict that. What if he were the old JD? We would be applauding.

4, He miraculously managed to flush the above which is a miracle comparable to walking on water.

5 He took his time with LO rather than panic

6 We will be pleasantly surprised in the next 7 days

cleepers
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This week:

Mullens out, Big Baby in. 'Nuff said.

calipublicist
Clipper 6th Man
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Rivers brought in two players and shipped them out while saving cash... How is that being a bad GM?

JamFan
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I haven't had time to read all the comments on this thread but I think there are at least a few of you who are going to eat big time CROW. It's obvious that Gary and Doc have a crafty plan. One of the best plans I have seen. They gave up two players they weren't using to open roster positions and a little cap space. Why, because they knew it was going to be a big buy out year. Now they have the back up big they were looking for with another couple of moves yet to be made. AND THEY DIDN'T GIVE UP ANY KEY PLAYERS TO GET THIS DONE. Addition without subtraction. They have something that many fans don't have....patience.

The whiners on this site can now bow down to Gary and Doc.

FightOnRon
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I like number 3. Plus with him sending the 2 away,seems to have woken up Barnes. BArnes and Dudley have to know who is next on the list so maybe they will up their games to try and keep out of the doghouse.

Jerediscool
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I just don't get the whole love fest with Bledsoe still.. Yes he was good for us and was lighting it up in PHX before getting hurt, but he's always hurting his knee... we would essentially be in the same place now with JJ out but we likely wouldn't have collision. So many people living in the past and using hindsight as a reason to look negatively on our current situation. We are a better team this year than we were last year, especially with the big baby signing.

Clippersfan86
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If he adds two more good role players like say Ivan Johnson/Granger I'll own up to being wrong.

Clippers_FTW
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If he adds Granger then he's the mid-season winner lol

Clippers_FTW
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Granger is Younger, Taller, Longer and when he's wide open (like he would be on the Clippers) a better shooter. He's a scoring threat also so you "have" to guard him.

Clippers_FTW
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http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -24-hours/ probably bought out in the next 24 hours.. that would be nice.. hopefully he can see the help he could provide to this team.

A7XDreamTheaterClipps
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Some of you need to do some homework on Clippers history before calling Doc a bad GM.

wessleejr
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Is there a clippers history books now in barnes and noble so they could start their homework? wink

CapsNClips
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Doc's best judgement call so far as our GM was not trading DJ. He knew what we had.

ClipperDB
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that is correct. I was convinced Doc was crazy to keep DJ, but DJ is a different player with Doc's guidance.

berzain23
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My trust is in Doc. He knows what he is doing. Remember this a 3 year project.

Silasie
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3 year project? I haven't heard that before, where did that come from?

berzain23
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He signed a 3 year deal. He has them heading in the right direction with his game plan but they are not quite where he wants them to be yet. Might take a couple of years.

FightOnRon
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My wife and I were just talking this one last night. Everyone wanted DJ gone (most everyone) but Doc wanted him to stay because he saw something. Shows again we are not GMS, we just play it on our computers and evidently not as well as many think we do.

tense2
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I agree, many wanted him gone, but a few who wanted him to stay. wink

clipperboy24
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We are better because Blake has gone into beast mode and Deandre has turned into a legit center, not because our roster is better. The pieces we added in Mullens, and Jamison are gone. Dudley has been terrible and our record with and without JJ is the same.

Bledsoe has the rare star potential that doesn't come by every day that's why he had so many fans and many felt we got hosed in the trade.

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