Danny Granger or Matt Barnes or Jared Dudley to Start @ SF? (P. 4)

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jarca
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looks like Turkoglu already took over what little minutes we have left for your boy Dudley

MunoValente
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Yeah Turkoglu played over him last night, which is different than Doc was doing before. If Dudley wants minutes though, those are ones he needs to fight for, Granger isn't going anywhere.

Dudley's situational use at the end of the half was odd. He came in for Jordan to spread the floor, seems like we could have used Granger or Turkoglu for that.

relevant
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What's the chances of us keeping granger for next year?

Icecoldclipper
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Going against all these big 2's Doc should be able to get Reggie some burn maybe cut about 4 mins from Collison and Green let him stay warm. Had a strong shooting game against the Lakers hate to let his shooting just fall away.

Agent0
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When he was signed, the keeping him next year was the main thing I had higher hopes for as how he could play this season wasn't clear. Should be quite high, he isn't likely going to demand a high salary, neither is it likely for any team to be willing to pay him more than about the MLE just because of fear. Then again, you never know.

ClippersDA
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He's a great fit and as I have said since he was traded, physically the perfect small forward. Length, strength, and still

Some athleticism. I mean just compare him physically to Dudley.

Wgreen
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Granger is a great player if he stays healthy. That was a pretty good pick up. What did you give up? I wouldn't start Dudley or consider it. You'd want Barnes for his toughness. Dudley is for depth and eating up minutes.

Icecoldclipper
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If there was a move to get Dudley somewhere for cap space would be a huge money boost for Granger.

Wgreen
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Well resigning Danny will be key

namzug
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I love the combo of Danny and Barnes. It's deadly because they have similar toughness but play so differently. They both play solid D, but it's so different. Barnes is a pesky defender that keeps bugging you, where Granger is just moving to the right spot. Barnes is quicker, but Danny makes it up with length. Barnes cuts at the most opportune times, and Danny moves to that open spot on the perimeter.

Having to switch from guarding one to the other would have to be such a pain.

itsLuigi
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i love the line up from last night Paul, Barnes, Granger, Griffin, and DJ. some defense right there

Agent0
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Danny Granger 10 games in:

9.4 PPG, 2.6 RPG, 0.8 APG, 0.3 SPG, 0.3 BPG, 1.0 TPG, 16.8 MPG

Danny Granger per 36:

20.1 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 1.7 APG, 0.6 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 2.1 TPG

Danny Granger shooting:

45.5% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 85.7% FT, .565 TS%

10 games is still small, but it is a good sign so far. The scoring rate wasn't expected, but since he has had a decent amount of minutes with the bench and with Crawford out, it makes sense that the shots are there. His efficiency so far is nice, that would be great if it maintained in the post season, but even just in the .540 TS% range would be acceptable.

In terms of firepower, this team if healthy has a lot of guys with high scoring rates. Clippers per 36 scoring leaders:

Griffin - 24.3 pts (career high)

Crawford - 21.9 pts (career high)

Granger - 20.1 pts

Redick - 19.6 pts (career high)

Paul - 19.4 pts

...and we know Paul has a tendency to get that in the 21-22 PPG range if healthy and if needed in the post-season. Not to mention Collison at a solid 15.8 pts/36.

That's a solid core of capable scorers which allows the team to be even more cognizant of focusing more on defense.

ClipperDB
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I prefer to keep Jamal on 2nd team. Also, I don't like playing Collison as SG -he should only be PG on 2nd team. So if this means playing Barnes or Granger or Bullock as SG, I am all for it.

ClippersDA
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I love granger. He has a calming presence

relevant
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when everyone's healthy, collison, crawford, dudley, granger, and davis looks pretty cool to me. small ball?

ClippersDA
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I want to try starting granger. Just try it. Barnes not playing great and it's work a try

Icecoldclipper
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Maybe Doc is waiting for JJ to return so he can get the Granger starting thing going. The. DC/Crawford/Barnes cab run up and down as suspected to do.

ClipperKyle32
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You can run Granger off screens like Reddick and he can make those shots like Dudley was supposed to. I think having two scorers like Reddick and Granger who can run off screens can cause....

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namzug
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I think it might be good to keep Granger coming off the bench. I'm only speaking for the sole purpose of resigning him during the offseason. If we start him that might boost his asking price out of our range. If we keep him scoring off the bench he can help us get the Championship this year and then we can resign him and he could help us repeat next year.

MunoValente
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I like Granger off the bench better as well, he's mostly been a volume scorer and I think there is bigger need for that off the bench. Barnes offensive rebounding and transition scoring lets him chip in more when Griffin and Paul dominate the ball.

Laak
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I see it as 1A, 1B with Granger and Barnes. I initially thought Granger was wasted. The Pacers are a very smart organization, there should be a very good reason (salary should never matter to a championship contending team) for them to not want him.

His play so far is definitely proving me wrong, but then again let's not go nuts, it's only been 10 games.

Both players contribute differently, yet equally well with the starting role. However I think there's no question that Barnes benefits much more than Granger in playing with CP3 and Blake.

My only concern with Granger being in 2nd unit is whether he can play well with Jamal. I can completely see these 2 playing like the 2011 Heat, where Wade and Lebron just take turns with the ball.

CapsNClips
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I wonder why we had a team meeting. I think I smell a big win streak coming?

06clippersfan
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I have the same concern with Granger being on the bench. I've noticed he likes to post up and Jamal loves the ball in his hands. If Redick comes back then Collison is going to need the ball in his hands when he comes off the bench. I just don't see all 3 of them being able to play together. I think we should start Granger when Barnes completely cools off.

If we play the Warriors and Granger is starting then they won't be able put Iguadala on CP3.

If we play the thunder granger is a bigger body and KD won't be able to post him up.

Laak
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Even though I said that, I can't decide which options better. We both worry about the ball dominant situation for Granger and Jamal. But I can also see a case where Granger would benefit Jamal.

Crawford is our Melo or Kobe, he can get hot and take over games, but he can also shoot us out of games. There have been many cases this season where he shot numbers like 4-14, 3-11. Granger can divert some attention off of Jamal, as well as allow our 2nd unit to stop relying on Jamal so much. If Jamal is struggling, there would always be Granger whose capable of fulfilling the task.

Clippers_FTW
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Start Granger

Clippers_FTW
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If Jamal is going to be in the 2nd unit then Granger needs to be in the 1st.

namzug
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Hopefully we get a fully healthy squad soon so we can see the options, and Doc can try them. I just don't want to see what happens to Barnes if he gets benched, I feel he lets his emotions get the best of him.

fullcourt
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I don't think Doc is waiting on JJ. Of course he knows JJ wants to try and return but is probably not sure if he will be able to contribute anything so he can't focus on the maybe. The only reason jamal is not in the starting lineup now is the 6th man award and the fact that we are playing weak teams. If the the playoffs started tonight then jamal would be in the starting lineup and I don't think Granger will start anytime soon unless Barnes play falls off the planet like Dudley's.

06clippersfan
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I remember earlier in the year Barnes said he does not care if he starts or comes off the bench. He just wants to be in the game the last 2 minutes of crunch time.

aksel
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Agreed i think dc jamal barnes and baby can hold the bench

Heediot
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I think we would be ok without Jamal since Granger is on the team, just my opinion. I would look to trade Jamal, Barnes & Dudley to open up flexibility.

ClipperPostman
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I need a sip of what you are drinking?

Are you seriously saying Granger a guy who has done well so far, but in reality

has come off the bench averaging 6-8ppg like 15mpg could replace Jamal

  1. Our second leading scorer

  2. Averaged 25ppg over a span of 19 games

  3. Top 3 4th qtr scorer in the entire LEAGUE

  4. Hit so many big 3's in clutch situations

  5. When Paul went down combined with Griffn to average

like 60-70ppg. Which is the only reason we are in the third seed.

If you really think we don't need Jamal because Granger is on this team, I honestly

don't know what to tell you.

Absurd

CP3Heliflopter
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Unless were getting a king's ransom hell no. lol

Laak
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Don't judge a player based on their previous reputation. The only thing that should matter is how they're playing right now. Granger's played only been 10 games, don't get carried away.

Heediot
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Y'all sipping on the Jamal Kool-Aid because he got hot before he went on the injured list. The guy is streaky. He always starts off the season hot and then cools off, the difference between this year and last year is he got hot again. Wait till he gets cold, he has a tendency to shoot the team out of games. In the playoffs he has been non-existent for us, and has a tendency to disappear against tighter post season defenses in general.

Another thing he may score in bunches but he renders others less effective when he comes off the bench. Collison has proven he can hold his own without Jamal (off the bench or starting). Jamal treats Bullock like the invisible man, looks for his own before creating for others. Collison is a willing passer and looks to create opportunity for others unlike Jamal who pads his own stats or has tunnel vision because he can beat most guys on iso's and 1 on 1's. I bet a bench of Collison-Bullock-Barnes-Big Baby has more then enough offense. If you trade Jamal for a solid backup 5, that's pretty much sealed. Just look at how much better Collison and Bullock do without Jamal. The former is also playing solid as the starting 2 as well.

I am not saying Jamal is not valuable, but his value can be replaced easier then people think and it's inflated. Granger and Collison can create their own shots, that's why losing him with those two on the roster is not as big as people make it seem. People are just stuck with the what have you done for me lately syndrome and y'all caught Jamal when he was on a hot streak.

namzug
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I wouldn't say it's absurd. Really have to see what Danny has, and that at the very least will take the rest of the season to get a small picture of what that actually is.

If Danny is returning near All Star Danny, I think it would be much more difficult to get a that type of player over a scoring specialist (Jamal is probably one of the best scorers in the league). There is also the fact that he is a long Small Forward that can play defense and is essentially the player we have been missing. Jamal is great, but he is also 33 opposed to Danny at 30.

Stats favor Danny and if we can get a large chunk of that it could be what we are missing. I'm not trying to undervalue what we have in Jamal, just pointing out that he is 33 and that he will be on the decline sooner than Danny in my opinion. In Jamal's defense, Danny hasn't shown the best durability in his last few years. This option should be evaluated thoroughly in the offseason as well as any option to unload Duds.

I just think it's more difficult to get a well rounded long Small forward as opposed to an offensive minded shooting guard.

Heediot
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If it was up to me to keep Granger or a combo of Crawford and Dudley, I would take Granger. Jamal can net you a solid backup center. My thinking is that re-signing Granger trumps keeping Crawford, and we get another bench piece with different variables-skills to boot.

Heediot
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Some solid points here as well.

I think for Doc's system, Granger can play the Pierce role just as Reddick can play the Allen role. The one concern is we have the injury prone version. My gut tells me Granger will work his way back to being an above average 3.

ClipperPostman
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Heediot sorry bro none of your arguments make any sense

whatsoever.

1. Crawford is streaky - Dude is on fire and has been for

months prior to injury. I'll take that streak.

2. Crawford in playoffs - To be fair he only played one playoff

series with the clippers, and no one not named blake in the first

2 games really did anything that series. Bledsoe, Jordan, butler, etc...

so to just name him is unfair.

3. He can shoot you out of a game... Show me one game this season

under Doc where he has "Shot us out of a game". I have seen every game

this season and have not once saw any evidence of this.

4. The bench plays better without crawford? Dude WTF are you watching??? Without

crawford the bench has been horrid, and has almost cost us a few games to sorry

teams.

5. Collison looks to pass more than crawford - Dude he is the PG

that's his job. Not to mention him and crawford both avg 3 assists a game. Not to mention

Collison is a shoot first PG, and from what I've seen hotdogs just as much as crawford.

Again WTF are you talking about???

6. Really a backup big for your second leading scorer on the team, and closer.

Yea bro this isn't an argument because what I'm saying makes

sense.

fullcourt
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This is ridiculous as is said in previous post. Jamal hasn't just been a good reserve he is been a TOP TEN SG In the nba this year. Where does Granger rank? RIGHT NOW I'm sorry Granger and Collison does not bring anywhere close to what Jamal brings. Collison has proven nothing other than he is a good backup PG. They contribute but Blake and CP are forced to do much more than they would with Jamal in the lineup. Jamal allows either CP or Blake to take a game off and can still close it out.

Wait until he gets cold? can't that apply to just about every non superstar in the nba considering he is been productive pretty much the entire season. People will say he was struggling with his shot in December after first moving into the starting lineup but probably played the best defense of his career in that same month.

Jamal's role is not to look for Bullock offensively he has the most responsibility on this team behind Blake and CP. His job is to produce no excuses and he has done that. Before he got hurt jamal was top 25 in free throw attempts in the league, top 30 scoring, top ten in 3pt makes , top 5 in 4th quarter scoring I could go and on with facts and somehow you think Collison,Barnes,Bullock,and Big Baby somehow more than make up for that? Seriously no one is inflating Jamals value he is actually doing these things you are over inflating the value of your fab 4 bench.

Heediot
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1. Crawford is streaky - Dude is on fire and has been for

months prior to injury. I'll take that streak.

That does not mean he can't get cold. Would rather have more consistency.

2. Crawford in playoffs - To be fair he only played one playoff

series with the clippers, and no one not named blake in the first

2 games really did anything that series. Bledsoe, Jordan, butler, etc...

so to just name him is unfair.

Career .380 fg % in the playoffs, not one year above .400. His numbers in general go down in the post-season.

3. He can shoot you out of a game... Show me one game this season

under Doc where he has "Shot us out of a game". I have seen every game

this season and have not once saw any evidence of this.

Just scroll down his game logs this year and you'll seen a 20 games with with 1/3 fg percentage or worse. We didn't lose most of them, but that doesn't mean he can't hinder the team with his chucking. Only 24/63 games he shot better than .438 and 18 games shooting over .500.

4. The bench plays better without crawford? Dude WTF are you watching??? Without

crawford the bench has been horrid, and has almost cost us a few games to sorry

teams.

He and Collison together are a bad fit together, if you can't see that I got coupons for laser eye surgery for you. The reason why the bench struggled without Crawford was when Collison wasn't playing with the unit.

5. Collison looks to pass more than crawford - Dude he is the PG

that's his job. Not to mention him and crawford both avg 3 assists a game. Not to mention

Collison is a shoot first PG, and from what I've seen hotdogs just as much as crawford.

Again WTF are you talking about???

Yeah Collison looks for his shot, but he also looks to create more. What I am saying is Collison can replace a fair chunk of what Crawford could do in addition to creating for others.

6. Really a backup big for your second leading scorer on the team, and closer.

Yea bro this isn't an argument because what I'm saying makes

sense.

I can see how pieces fit together, I am not saying Crawford isn't valuable but the variable and dynamics he brings can be replace with some other pieces on our roster if you shuffle things around in relation to context.

Heediot
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"This is ridiculous as is said in previous post. Jamal hasn't just been a good reserve he is been a TOP TEN SG In the nba this year. Where does Granger rank? RIGHT NOW I'm sorry Granger and Collison does not bring anywhere close to what Jamal brings. Collison has proven nothing other than he is a good backup PG. They contribute but Blake and CP are forced to do much more than they would with Jamal in the lineup. Jamal allows either CP or Blake to take a game off and can still close it out. "

OK I'll give you that Jamal is better right now then Granger. You can hold that against me, but my gut says Granger will become an above average 3 again, not all-star but above average. Out up Collison's numbers as a starter and usage % starting on and off the bench.

"Wait until he gets cold? can't that apply to just about every non superstar in the nba considering he is been productive pretty much the entire season. People will say he was struggling with his shot in December after first moving into the starting lineup but probably played the best defense of his career in that same month. "

Look at his game logs the guy has 40 percent of his games where he shoots less than .440 and a weak percentage shooting over.500. I bet his shooting ratios is one of the worse in terms of consistency (guys with his usage percentage).

"Jamal's role is not to look for Bullock offensively he has the most responsibility on this team behind Blake and CP. His job is to produce no excuses and he has done that. Before he got hurt jamal was top 25 in free throw attempts in the league, top 30 scoring, top ten in 3pt makes , top 5 in 4th quarter scoring I could go and on with facts and somehow you think Collison, Barnes,Bullock,and Big Baby somehow more than make up for that? Seriously no one is inflating Jamals value he is actually doing these things you are over inflating the value of your fab 4 bench."

We have a ball movement offense, if Collison runs the 2nd unit, the ball moves around and guys get good looks. Crawford doesn't give guys good looks. He has the ability, but he just looks for his own and unless there is a shi!t shot, he'll chuck it. Who gives a funk if he plays the 4th quarter give me his shooting numbers and clutch numbers in the 4th. TO his defense Doc let's him play his game, but with the other 4 guys Doc can run the system over catering to Jamal.

fullcourt
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Heediot -

OK I'll give you that Jamal is better right now then Granger. You can hold that against me, but my gut says Granger will become an above average 3 again, not all-star but above average. Out up Collison's numbers as a starter and usage % starting on and off the bench.

Crawford is better than Granger and Collison right now he is a impact player that just must be game planned for. Collison has played very well and Granger is coming around I don't dispute that the scouting report on this team reads Blake,CP, Jamal and when JJ comes back he can be added to that but everyone else on this team is here with the sole purpose of finding a role around those guys

Look at his game logs the guy has 40 percent of his games where he shoots less than .440 and a weak percentage shooting over.500. I bet his shooting ratios is one of the worse in terms of consistency (guys with his usage percentage).

44% doesn't mean much when talking about a player like jamal because he shoots a ton of threes and he gets to the ft line. So when comparing him to everyone else at his position his numbers are more than good even though he shoots only 41% this year. Again if you are top ten in made three and top ten in ft attempts at your position the overall shooting % means very little. Ex: Jodie meeks is shooting 45% this season is he having a bigger impact on games than Jamal ?

We have a ball movement offense, if Collison runs the 2nd unit, the ball moves around and guys get good looks. Crawford doesn't give guys good looks. He has the ability, but he just looks for his own and unless there is a shi!t shot, he'll chuck it. Who gives a funk if he plays the 4th quarter give me his shooting numbers and clutch numbers in the 4th. TO his defense Doc let's him play his game, but with the other 4 guys Doc can run the system over catering to Jamal.

Jamal is apart of that ball movement offense that is what makes him valuable. You don't watch the games if you think that somehow Collison was setting guys up better than jamal. He sets up people just fine but when he is in with the bench players his role is to attack and the other guys are supposed to fit in with him not the other way around and those are Doc's words actually not mine. as for the 4th quarter I remember watching that game against OKC and Van Gundy mention that Jamals play across the board gets better as the game goes on and in the 4th he is lights out. Doc would just as much laugh you out of the room Ill run the system with 4 guys because What were we running while jamal was out?

Your argument that somehow the potential of fab 4 bench is better than the proven play of Crawford is flawed.

I think you greatly undervaluing what jamal has brought to the team especially this year.

Here is a comment from Doc

One thing that has gotten completely dismissed is that Crawford is not a home cooking type of player. Sure he has more highlight plays at home but he tends to play better on the road and I'm sorry but I don't see any one of your fab 4 going into place like OKC and going head to head with Durant like jamal did and until ONE of them shows that type of ability let alone the group Ill bet on jamal

Your argument wouldve had more weight last year with with Bledsoe and Odom in the mix but this year just ...no .

ClippersDA
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Crawford has disappeared in post season a lot and I just can't trust him as a result.

Heediot
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JC's TS% is close to Collison. Doc planned to have Crawford revolve around his system at first and when it did not work out in pre-season he let Crawford be. Doc also says a lot of things to the press and a lot of it is smoke and mirrors. I do believe some of what he says about Crawford is true.

I respect Crawford's ability to create offense, but if you have a good system creating one's own offense is over-rated. Even the lowly Lakers can make scrubs look like all-stars on any given night. They scored 51 last night in 1 q. The Spurs system also makes players more effective or allow for easy looks. Our team has a potent system where we don't need to rely on JC's iso skills.

Like I said I'll give you Crawford being better now, but I instinctively feel Granger will get back to being a more valuable player. It's not like DG and Collison are scrubs creating their own offense either. Yeah we will miss Crawford's ability to bail out clock expiring shots, but it's is replaceable. I won't argue the age factor because I think Crawford's game can age fairly well. He can play at a good level for 2-3 more years at least.

I am not even going to mention the defensive side of the ball...

Look if we didn't have both Collision and Granger, I would be hesitant to move Crawford. But with all the pieces we have and the system we have in place he is replaceable and I would rather take the other variables/dynamics that Collison and Granger brings then Crawford.

It seems to me people keep on ignoring the Collison factor in assessing bench play. How does the bench play with Collison while playing without Crawford?

The big/main thing we will miss most from him is his ability to get to the line, and to a small extent his bail out shots.

namzug
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I'm not sure why people get so offended when the "idea" of trading Jamal comes up. I love what Jamal brings to the team. I think we lost the idea of JJ and Jamal being on the team together. I think at some point we have to think that JJ is going to be healthy, and then Jamal and JJ bring a very similar thing to the team.

If Granger is healthy and is looking to be back to his normal self or very close to; I don't understand how the idea of having a good small forward plus a good shooting guard is not as good as having two good shooting guards. If we have to face off with OKC, GS, POR, HOU, IND, MIA, any team with a good to great SF; in the playoffs or finals would you rather have JJ and Jamal or Danny and one of those two matched up?

Is it early to judge Danny? Yes, but hopefully we have a championship run and an offseason of celebrating to assess him. Would it be great for Jamal to give us a discount and allow us to resign Danny? Yes, if that is an option then we'd be stupid not to take it. Are JJ or Jamal able to fill in realistically at the 3? No, at least I don't think this will be good in any playoff match up.

We are talking about this offseason anyways aren't we, no one is suggesting we release Jamal right now. Let's look at the options before we just say "oh there is no way we can trade Jamal".

ClipperKyle32
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Just Stop!!!! You can replace a Darren Collison or a Danny Granger , but there is no other player in this world like Jamal Crawford. He is irreplaceable. He is clutch. You are judging one....

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namzug
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@Heediot, I agree that Jamal's game could very likely maintain with age; but I think Danny's can too. I think him posting up on smaller players as well as almost being a spot up shooter can keep him spry for a few more years. We are also talking about 3 years which in the NBA is a long time. I do think Jamal relies on his quickness to an extent, but don't think that will be an issue since it's his the quickness of his shot that is really remarkable.

Heediot
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I am not judging him off of one play off series. He struggled in the post season with the Hawks also. He did not have one series where he over .400 and his career shooting percentage in the playoffs is around .38. I mentioned his struggles in the playoffs a few times in this thread, it's just you only read my last post.

You guys are over-valuing his ability to create offense. It's a different animal in the post season, that's why even a guy like Harden can be taken out of a series. I am not saying these guys don't have value, but you are severely over rating his impact in the playoffs.

Granger and Collison bring something more important come post season. Defense. They are not world beaters on that end but they can be effective in certain situations. Crawford won't give much on that end in the post-season where defense is in-valuable playing in half-court sets.

Edit: Who says Granger and Collison are irreplaceable? We are arguing the merits of which players better fits for success.

Heediot
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I think once Granger is fully comfortable physically he'll be a solid starter.

I think I share a simliar opinion as you, I have nothing against Jamal and his value is relative to the make up of the roster is all that I am trying to state. Plus he has disappointed when the games matter more.

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