Danny Granger or Matt Barnes or Jared Dudley to Start @ SF? (P. 5)

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ClippersDA
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I am not judging him off of one play off series. He struggled in the post season with the Hawks also. He did not have one series where he over .400 and his career shooting percentage in the playoffs is around .38. I mentioned his struggles in the playoffs a few times in this thread, it's just you only read my last post. You guys are over-valuing his ability to create offense. It's a different animal in the post season, that's why even a guy like Harden can be taken out of a series. I am not saying these....

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ClipperKyle32
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I think the answer to the actual question of this thread is easy.

Who would you rather take the game winning shot from their position. Barnes Granger and Dudley.

namzug
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Wait are we talking about Crawford or Griffin? Is there some confusion going on?

Griffin is irreplaceable. Paul is irreplaceable. Crawford is not irreplaceable and neither is Danny or DC. I think a good balanced small forward is harder to find then a scoring guard.

Crawford is a scorer. Yes, he is a great scorer. Is he there with Kobe, Harden, KD and Carmelo as far as scoring goes? Not quite, but a good back up plan if you don't have those guys. The only problem is wouldn't you rather mimic the Spurs type offense instead of last years Knicks. Individual scorers are great, but if we can get a system that works wouldn't that be better. I think @Heediot is getting to that point (correct me if I'm wrong); Jamal is great but wouldn't we rather have players that fit the mold Doc for his system.

I say let's just keep an open mind as long as it's not concerning Blake then depending on the return everyone can be mentioned. Paul for KD or Lebron is really the only way I'm bringing Paul into the conversation; so he's pretty much untouchable too.

Heediot
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@Namzug

Yeah that's about right.

CapsNClips
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There's a difference between irreplaceable and untradeable. Jamal is not untradeable, but he is irreplaceable.

There's nobody in the league that can do what he does and who's willing to do it off the bench. No matter how much money we throw at a player or no matter how great we draft, we will never be able to duplicate what Jamal does for us off the bench. PERIOD.

Heediot
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That just makes him unique rather than irreplaceable. There are a lot of guys willing to jack up shots like him, they just don't have his quick release, natural instincts, and handles. I guess from the way you define it, irreplaceable might fit the description.

Agent0
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Jamal after about 08-09 went from just jacking up shots to actually doing it efficiently, that is when his career changed and he became a more valuable player.

Jamal despite the general thought has never been a great scorer in his career. This seasons 21.9 pts/36 is his career high scoring rate. He didn't reach a scoring rate of 20 pts/36 until I believe his first season in Atlanta. He's generally been a guy hovering around 17-19 pts/36 most of his career, but that year in ATL and then the last two seasons in LAC have been his only three seasons with scoring rates of 20 pts/36 or higher.

His ability to explode and get hot as a scorer has been confused with being a great scorer, but great scorers are more consistent than what Jamal had shown through his career, which is actually what made coaches think the bench role was better. He was/is a ball dominant guy (though he can catch and shoot very well) who didn't give enough consistency as a scorer each night or playmaker and didn't defend well enough nightly to easily justify starting him.

The consistency we are talking about doesn't mean every single night, but a general consistency, which is why their averages end up being high because most nights they are in the range. So while great scores have their hot games and cold games, night in and night out, they generally give a good rate of scoring. CP is not as explosive in terms of a one game blowing up scorer as Jamal, but he's easily been a better scorer for their careers for example, but most people wouldn't think that based on perception, but night in and night out in their careers Chris is a guy who has produced superior scoring production.

I think Jamal plays a very nice role for his team. I wouldn't say he is irreplaceable in the way CapsNClips is saying because we have Manu Ginobili, Nate Robinson, J.R. Smith, and before he declined to suckitude, Ben Gordon was also a player capable of doing the same thing and willing to come off the bench who would fit based on the team need / dynamics. Now I know not all those guys (eg: Smith) are playing well now, and Robinson is injured, but Smith has fit that role well in the past and Robinson was good for the Bulls.

Also we'd have to give mention to guys like Rodney Stuckey on Detroit, Dion Waiters on Cleveland, Tyreke Evans on the Pelicans who are all playing similar roles in terms of scorers / ball handlers / playmakers off the bench, though I'm not claiming equal effectiveness from all.

I can't gauge all of their willingness to come off the bench either, though we at least know guys like Manu, Smith, Gordon and Robinson are content there, and at least in the right situation I'd imagine at least 2 of those 3 other guys are also.

I'm just mentioning guards, I supposed Blatche and Amare are also 6th man like scoring big men though the guards seem to get more of the props for that role.

I would easily argue that a guy like Ginobili not only replaces, but supercedes Jamal as a superior playmaker and defender while being a similar level scorer and shooter, and capable of properly playing the SF spot and not being undersized. Of course his recent finals blunder still is remembered by the masses, but that doesn't make him any less good. Now of course I don't think we were talking about any realistic ability of getting these said players that could replace his role, just whether there are such players, and there are.

Agent0
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Well this is an oversimplification because we can obviously think of situations where such a comparison doesn't work. Essentially that asks who is the best shooter this season, not so much who is the best guy to start for this team in terms of balance, fit, etc

Laak
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What? No...

I'd take Kobe taking a game winning shot over Lebron any day. Does that mean Kobe's the better player?

ClipperKyle32
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I'm not saying that I said from their positions.

LeBron vs KD on the same team. Who takes your game winning 3! Kevin Durant obviously so wouldn't you start Durant? Wouldn't you want to start a player who can start and close games for you?

Agent0
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Wait, what? Lebron isn't inferior in closing games because Durant is a better 3PT shooter. Also it's about who will help me the most over the course of a game, I'm not going to simplify a game to final possessions when plays made before those possessions can determine whether I'm up 4 or up 2, or whether I'll even need any sort of game wining shot to close out the game.

Neither am I going to simplify offense to just shooting when there's playmaking, or impact to just offense when there's also defense.

Btw if you have Durant and Lebron on he same team you start them at each of your forward spots, you don't bench in of those guys

Laak
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Steve Novak takes my game winning 3. I'll start him over LeBron, KD.

Agent0
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Kyle Korver would start Wink

Just teasing Kyle, but oversimplifications don't always work

ClipperKyle32
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Okay unlike others on this thread I will admit that argument is invalid and will raise the white flag lol

fullcourt
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You are wrong ...again. You talk about the Hawks but against against Orlando in Jamals second playoff series he shot 43% from the and 46% from three and averaged 20 ppg off the bench. He closed out one of the games with this shot.

Jamal has only played in 4 playoff series and in 2 of them he faced 2 of the best team defenses in the nba at the time the Bulls and The Grizzlies and I Have already posted his defensive rating for the year which is a 102 which is more than respectable.

You have seemingly put your two horses in the race and based on absolutely nothing are claiming what they will bring while at the same time devaluing what Jamal is bringing. It makes no sense until your horses actually do something to justify the claims you are making no coach in the league would go the ridiculous route you are talking about. Granger and Collison play a different position than Jamal but no coach in the league considered either of them better options at Shooting guard. To make that type of argument that either in the playoffs somehow turns into a better shooting guard than Jamal Crawford is ridiculous and I know that you know this.

Jamal is not irreplaceable but the fact is that there are very few bench guys that can do what he does. There is a reason why you don't hear of any other bench players in the league leaders in 4 quarter scoring because its hard even for starters to score that consistently down the stretch of games. Once you add in the three point shooting ,ft shooting ,the ability to create his own shot and the ability to pass its very hard to find someone who can do that is not starting.

I love Manu but lets be real here if you put Manu on this team and gave him Jamal's role he would be out like Chauncey was his body couldn't handle it. The guy is struggling with 22 mpg and struggling to hit double digits most of the time. They have 4-5 Willie greens on that team just so they don't have to rely on him as much as they did in the past.

There is a reason Jamal gets so much love from the coaches because they know who and how they are game planning and just how crazy what Jamal is doing is. This argument now is no different than the one people were making at training camp about how Willie and Dudley could replace what Jamal is giving us .

kjavis
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We are going through a mini slump 1-2 out of the last 3 games, i say its time to change it up and start granger in place of barnes

namzug
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The argument wasn't about Jamal sucking or anything like that. It was more towards would it be worth trading Jamal and Dudley to retain Granger and get a back up center?

There were other variables involved such as; how does Danny look in the playoffs? Performances in the playoffs all together? What kind of money is being asked for? Is age an important topic to be viewed? Can we unload Dudley with Jamal, have enough money to sign Danny and get a back up Center? Would Reggie be able to fill in the back up SG role? and so many more...

This became Jamal is irreplaceable. If we get into semantics over the word irreplaceable and untradeable we will be here a long time. Nobody is really irreplaceable, since there is only one of each of us on this earth to my knowledge; so I will switch to untradeable. Which I don't think anyone is untradeable except Blake (CP3 is only on the table for Durant or Lebron).

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