Danny Granger or Matt Barnes or Jared Dudley to Start @ SF? (P. 2)

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jarca
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Obviously 50ppg is an exaggeration to demonstrate a point. 1. Your post is false. I haven't questioned anyones fanhood. But there is a reality with this board that I've noticed which are unrealistic expectations then turn around and abandon players, coaches, etc... when they don't meet them. Do you need examples? 1. Trashing DJ and talks of trading him were all over this board. Even after he was putting up great numbers, he was still being trashed by many members because he hasn't turned into Dwight Howard, and defensive player of the year in one season. 2. Doc Rivers - Many members started to turn on Doc as....

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Clipswhit
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There is, hold your vote until you're more certain Smile

Clipswhit
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I'd be happy wth 12-5 with good defense. Any defense and rebounding from the wings is much needed relief at this point.

ClippersDA
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Barnes has really elevated his play but I still think he is better with the second unit.

ClipperKyle32
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Look, Matt Barnes is playing great , but he is an energy guy. A guy who comes in and ignites a team. Granger will start. Just because he has in the past and when you see....

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DeadPoet
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I don't know if Granger can play the fast break points like Barnes with his current condition but they very important for us.

I think it's a battle between Granger and Dudley. My expectations aren't so high.

ClippersDA
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Barnes has come off the bench his whole career. He isn't a starter. As well as he has been playing, he just seems hot too. Granger is a more imposing presence and I think will fit great with starters eventually. People should be at least open to it, or I think they will be disappointed when it happens. Doc said that is his plan if at all possible, so we know that is what doc wants.

wessleejr
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If Granger will show up and decided to stay, I think Doc will trade Dudley on summer to give the starting spot for Granger, But as of now I want to see if he can play better than Barnes.

ClipperKyle32
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Danny Granger was set to make his debut for the Clippers on Saturday, after signing with L.A. following a trade from the Pacers and a buyout from the Sixers. But a mistake by Doc Rivers when....

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MunoValente
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Just because other coaches had him behind worse players doesn't mean Doc should do it. This year he was terrible when he coming off the bench but has picked up his game as a starter. His years in Phoenix and Orlando he was starting over half the time and those were first years in his career he found consistency. Last year he started a few games and was fine those. With the Lakers they were just deep. There is little evidence he can't perform as a starter. If he's the best of the three and right now he is by a lot, he start and get the most minutes. We'd been better off last year if we sent Butler to the bench for him.

MunoValente
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It depends on how well Granger does. He will probably cost us a lot of our MLE, but we need to re-sign Collison or another PG and could still probably use another big as well. So it will depend on how Granger and Dudley play the rest of the year. If Granger only plays as well as he did in Indiana he's probably not worth not filling holes in other areas.

ClippersDA
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My point is I like physically what granger brings defensively in terms of his height and length. I think he and DJ together on the court would be very Imposing. I want to at least try starting him. Until a few games ago, barnes was just awful. I'm still holding my breath.

wessleejr
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With Granger in the roster, i think it's more fun for them to compete each other, I think Barnes was intimidated when he learned that Granger is coming to the clips, that he elevated his last four games to the next level. Don't know if I am the only one noticed, last night game of Jared is a lot better.

Agent0
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I don't think we should look at just the scoring in isolation. I won't be happy with 12 pts on 12 shots. 12/5, good defense ad at least fairly decent shooting percentages. We don't really want someone chucking a meeting some arbitrary scoring threshold that now means they are positively producing.

Agent0
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Honestly, one of the weirdest things NBA fans say is the whole "blank player has played off the bench for this or that amount of time and therefore they aren't a starter". Is every situation really the same like that? Is a player just stuck in this static role / box no matter where they go? I don't see much concrete stuff in that assessment. He's starting but playing the same amount of minutes as if he's coming off the bench, of he fits with the starters, it's the same situation.

Sure, he's just a passable player and you'll be looking to upgrade in the future, but that doesn't mean if he's your best choice he now can't start because he's always come off the bench. Seems a bit weird

Now, for this team, he can work with both the bench and the starters, so it actually doesn't matter, it's about who he fits better with, or maybe even more so who Granger fits better with, since Matt can do both. So maximizing your players is the goal.

clipperboy24
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The same mentality just inverted role could be said about Dudley. Everyone assumed he should be a starter and would be a great fit because he had started for the Suns. Clearly that was not the case. Matt's a decent player I just don't think that he is really a championship level player and Granger is a better fit than him. Career wise matt isn't the best outside shooter and he can be very volatile out on the court as well as just overall inconsistent. Those are difficult qualities for a starter to have success with. Better to have a guy who averages 16 a game consistently than the guy who averages 20 but one game he scores 35 and the next 5. Teams need to be able to rely on starters. Bench players can get away with that inconsistency.

ClippersDA
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Dudley came off the bench too with the suns. It was t that he was the obvious starter except at the end. I just have a hard time believing barnes is a starting 3 on a championship team. He is playing out of his mind, but it might not be sustainable. I think granger should get his chance too. Dudley had his.

Agent0
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Dudley was a bench player on the Suns and a starter, he did both and was consistent in both. People thought he was a starter because he shoots like 40% 3PT in his career and we wanted shooting around CP and Blake, not because he was previously a starter, that means nothing really, he's not a star, he earns his role, doesn't just get plugged in.

    If last season's stint as a starter is any indication, Dudley is undoubtedly the right choice at two guard. In 15 games as a starter last year Dudley averaged 16.3 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.2 assists and 2.1 steals, while shooting 51.8 percent from the field and 46.4 percent from three in 34.1 minutes.

    http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/12/18/s ... non-brown/

That's Dudley starting vs bench before:

As well as this in terms of his positive effect on Phoenix:

    The criticism I have of Dudley as a starter is that he's not aggressive enough in looking to score. He shoots at a high percentage, he can draw fouls, and has a little "old man's game" going to the hoop. Maybe it was because it was his first season with the starters, but he deferred on some open shots. If you're the best option, fire away!

    http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2012/ ... red-dudley

Sound familiar? It's the Boris Diaw curse

So yea, it goes both ways, of course, why wouldn't it, but Dudley isn't the good example for that, he's been a bench player more than a starter, he's played very similar both ways. Yes, just because you started before doesn't mean you now must always start. There's no logic to that when situations change and team needs change.

Granger is in theory a better fit, just like Dudley was in theory a better fit as a 40% shooter who was a consistent player, but we still don't know what Granger we are getting, so we're not sure yet, but well try and see, and if not, it is what it is.

Consistency is definitely what we want from the starters, and from the bench, just that part of why some guys go to the bench is that they aren't consistent, but you don't relieve them from the pressure of being consistent, and not specifically in scoring, but overall. That's primarily where Dudley failed the most. Barnes too has been inconsistent, but both their overall seasons have been poor. 11-12 Dudley averaged 12.7 pts and scored 10+ points in 45/65 games (69%), last year he averaged 10.9 pts and scored 8+ pts in 54/79 games (68%), that's what we hoped for. That's basically 7/10 games you are within 2 pts or your average or more. 100% consistency doesn't happen, of course wee not saying that, no one obviously just scores within a very limited range every game because situations change too much, but we want relative consistency.

Injuries are always an enemy to consistency though because you feel good one day, not so great the next, terrible another, so that's why we can't be super certain about Granger yet. If he's still suffering a little, then he will likely be wildly inconsistent. Of he averages like 10-11 pts and floats around 8-9+ points in 65% or more of the games, then he will be good. I'm saying 10-11 pts because I don't presume he's going to be tossed out there to play anything more than about 25-26 MPG, scoring is relative to playing time.

MunoValente
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I wasn't posting on this board at the start of the year, but I think Dudley became the starter because people thought a lower volume higher efficiency player would be better with the starters, however Barnes was the better of the two last year and his offensive rebounding and transition scoring fit well with the starters too. For the most this year we've played defensively as a team with Dudley and better offensively with Barnes, but lately Barnes has upped his game and has been clearly better.

What I was kind of hoping for if they both played well this year is that they would both play about 24 minutes and we'd just play one or the other based on who was hot or was a better matchup for our opponent. Both of them struggling and dealing with injuries messed that up. Right now though with Barnes playing like he is, I'd be fine with him playing 40 minutes in the playoffs if he could sustain it.

Akclipps
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Dudley is starting.... Starting at the line to get ice cream lol

clipperboy24
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Oh man that just made my night. My 3 month old son is getting surgery tomorrow morning, thanks for the laugh it is much appreciated.

Akclipps
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Lol Ur welcome @clipperboy

CP3Heliflopter
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Makes me so sad when I think about how mediocre Dudley has been this season :/.

mj_shoefanatic
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Granger gotta earn it. Dudley NEVER. Barnes if he continues playing the way he's been playing.

clipitgood
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  1. Barnes - Best wing defender, provides toughness, and has been on fire lately.

  2. Granger - We need to play him to see what we have. Would be glorious if he surprises and earns the starting spot.

  3. Dudley - Feel for the guy, but playtime shrinks unless Granger disappoints or further injuries occur (Would rather see Bullock pick up any spare minutes at SG.). Btw, is he in shape?

CapsNClips
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I think the real question is, do we sign Matt Barnes to a $20mil contact extension or just a $16mil extension?

MunoValente
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I don't think his playtime shrinks too much if Granger does well, he'll just take minutes from Turkoglu instead; when Granger played last game it was him and Dudley as the forwards with Turkoglu on the bench.

Dudley is clearly in much better physical condition than at the start of year, his defense and rebounding is way better lately, unfortunately he's still in a shooting slump, although he shot ok last game and against Houston.

Barnes clearly deserves the most of minutes of the group right now though, he playing the best by a mile.

BringKamanBack
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hope everything went well

kjavis
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This, Granger will thrive more playing with the starting unit, especially CP who will be better at spotting Granger up for open shots.

IMO Barnes playstyle is the same regardless as a starter or coming off the bench but clearly for the teams success he is better as the latter because he like the energizer bunny and the bench need that cause they just look flat against PHX

MunoValente
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Barnes does some things that work well with the starting unit too, he's the best of our SF in transition which works well with Paul and Griffin. He's also the best offensive rebounder of the group, so he can contribute to the half court offense even when Paul or Griffin dominate the ball. Granger needs to show more than he did in Indiana to really deserve any of minutes Barnes is getting.

CP3Heliflopter
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Barnes until Granger proves himself. Barnes has been great and deserves the starting spot unless Granger or Dudley(yea right) prove otherwise with their play.

fray_27
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Why not just start both matt at the 2 and granger at the 3 so that way Jamal is still in contention to win six man

wessleejr
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i think Granger just need more exposure so his confident will come back, it will not comeback by playing few minutes. Doc should give him more minutes when we are playing a team with no defense like the lakers wink

toohipcliptoslip
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Is this a question of who starts or who fits best where? Are we talking about starting or minutes? With JJ back I could easily see Granger starting and Matt off the bench but sharing minutes

Baby

Hedo

Matt Rebounds, defense. He knows Doc's system better than Granger.

Jamal

Collison

DJ

BG scorer

Granger??

JJ scorer

CP scorer

Laak
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Why does everyone prefer Granger starting over Barnes? Yes, Granger has much more individual skills than Barnes, but Barnes fits the system much better. He has a better basketball IQ, knows when and where to cut, has decent defense, and commits hard fouls. These attributes are much more valuable than Granger's ability to create and score since we already have Cp3 and Blake for that.

If JJ is healthy, put Granger in the 2nd unit so can be the 2nd or maybe 1st option along with Jamal. If JJ's out for the season, put Granger as SG, Barnes SF. Either way, I prefer Barnes starting no matter what.

itsLuigi
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i think granger would probably have easier time playing with the starters than the bench. barnes already knows how to play with jamal and collison. i think it would probably help build the chemistry faster.

namzug
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We still have to get a good idea of what Granger is bringing to the table. I love old Granger, but we don't really know what kind of Granger we are getting. He should back up Barnes for now and just keep taking some of Dudley's minutes. If he starts playing like old Granger than we it might benefit to start him, but the way Barnes is playing right now he will probably have to resort back to All-Star Granger to start.

Chemistry can be the topic a few games from now, let's just get him some minutes at this point.

Agent0
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I don't think roster decisions should be made based on trying to get players to win awards

CapsNClips
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It's only been a small sample size, but is Matt Barnes playing the best ball of his career?

I hope it carries over to the Playoffs.

ClippersDA
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Happy for barnes.

backinblue
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me too. Kudos to Barnes! great energy he brings to this ballclub

kjavis
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Once Barnes cools off start granger

jarca
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Love how Doc handled the Granger and Davis situation. He is slowly integrating them and making them earn their minutes. That way he doesn't alienate Barnes or Dudley. For the last two years, DJ was treated like a door mat by VDN. He played 30+ minutes in the beginning of the season then as soon as we got KMart, he lost his minutes quickly. Same thing happened last year except it was Odom. Glad Doc is handling each ego

Silasie
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^

That's one of the main skills that coaches need in any top level team sports. The players are super rich and some are superstars, so man-management/ego-management is really important. Looks like Doc knows how to do it. Good news for the Clipper Nation.

pageC4
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great post. I agree

wessleejr
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With Danny Granger started to eat Dudley's minutes due to injury ( I don't know how long), Matt Barnes will show everything he has to hold his starting job. And Granger will do everything to get his old play, so it's like a tug of war. Now this is fun. Everybody now want to score. Smile

GrangerFan
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First post for me. Sorry, but I'm a Pacers fan and have followed Granger since he was drafted. I just wanted to see what Clippers fans thought of the move. I think you guys got a great addition in Granger. He's always been a slow starter for any season but really picks it up as the season moves on. Combine that with recovery at the age of 30 from a knee surgery and you get what the Pacers have from him to this point which really wasn't bad in limited minutes. I think you'll see continued improvement from him as the season progresses and he should be a huge asset come playoff time. Right now you're getting a very good defender, willing passer and a shooter who's still trying to get his 3 point shot back. I think he could start or come off the bench here for up to 25-30 minutes if he's needed that much. I really don't know enough about Barnes to know if that will happen so I was very interested in reading this thread to see what your thoughts were.

I'm glad he chose the Clippers because it looks like he could fill a real need here. I'll be rooting for you guys to come out of the West.

jarca
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Welcome. Good post. Rep

toohipcliptoslip
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If you are an Indy fan you HAVE TO love the Big O also the Van Arsdale twins. (Wes Montgomery). White Castle hamburgers on 16th st at 1am Dairy Queen and Steak and Shake. A dozen White Castles and a good Beaujolais!

GrangerFan
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Thanks for the welcome guys. Love the the Big O, loved to eat like that when I was 20 but that was a while ago. Who hasn't had a late night capped off by a dozen sliders.

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