Doc Rivers vs Vinny Del Negro (P. 3)

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Silasie
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Doc vs VDN? Now that's just not fair.

namzug
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So are Vinny and Thibs on the same level? Vinny got the Bulls to the playoffs, and so did Thibs. With more time Vinny it can be said that Vinny would have gotten farther too. Would he have the best defense for years too come, probably not. Would a fully Vinny Bulls be as scary as a fully healthy Thibs Bulls? I don't think so. Don't results and context have to be intertwined somehow?

I would bet a lot of money that Bulls fans wouldn't want Vinny back, and I'm hoping that is the case here too. I don't have a problem putting Doc over Thibs as a coach, I wouldn't say that Vinny is in the same conversation with either of those guys. My argument is that we are better off with Doc and it can seen now. If you want we can wait for the playoffs for me to repeat this.

clipper*joe
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I agree, it's not fair. It was never about who was better ( No Brainer), it was more about people saying it was all VDN's fault. The argument was about putting Doc under the same microscope if we end up the same under the old regime.

CP3Best
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I can already count all the things we were so unhappy with VDN that Doc immediately IMMEDIATELY changed.

  1. Begging VDN to do something about our 3pt defense next to last 3 years running till Doc put us 1st in 3pt%

  2. Lack of development from our young bigs frustration no playing time, Doc comes, we get 1st in rebounding and 3rd in blocks.

  3. MENTAL TOUGHNESS, didn't have it before, we have it now, last year we would've folded without our stars, now were missing 2 stars BG, and JCross and role players and we still won over the T-WOlves, who had our number before.

namzug
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It's not about being all Vinny's fault, it's that we weren't going to be able to take the next step with Vinny. It's that we are a better team with Doc. Vinny supporters are saying we are the same with Doc since we haven't done anything in the playoffs. My argument is that we are better team with Doc and that we are actual contenders instead of the pretenders under Vinny.

Vinny had his hand in the downfall that was last season, but of course it wasn't all his fault. He was supposed to be steering the ship, and the captain is supposed to go down with the ship so that's why he gets the majority of the blame. The last two seasons when things got tough in the playoffs we were closer to a mutiny than coming together to pull it out. I don't see that happening this season.

cleepers
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^ Nobody's saying that we are "the same" with Doc as we were with Vinny, merely that it is very difficult to go to the WCF and beyond, and that if we can't manage to get there this year - with a proven winner steering the ship - then saying that our "blind", "stupid", "inept" coach was the thing "holding us back" for the past 2 years is an oversimplification of the issues.

And for all those who were screaming for Vinny's head ever since CP3 got off the plane from New Orleans... What if the front office had taken their advice and fired him 6, 12, 18 or 24 months earlier? Who would be our coach now? ...One of the Van Gundys? ...McMillan? ...D'Antoni?

No... They waited for a clear upgrade to become available - as Joe and I advocated at the time - then pounced... and the team is better off for it.

Maybe in future all the armchair coaches and GMs we have on this forum will learn their lesson and have a little faith in those who know what they're doing instead of demanding blood at the first sign of adversity. But I doubt it... one has only to read the comments about Jared Dudley - or the utter panic that surrounded the trading deadline - to see that they'll never change.

clipper*joe
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You still don't get it. it's not about being "Vinny supporters", it has nothing to do with that. Until you get past that, you and I are wasting our time. last season's downfall was due to our bigs, Jamal sucking on the big stage, and CP3/BG being hurt. DJ couldn't even defend Gasol so he had BG playing center. Oh wow, even Doc uses BG as center at times against bigger centers. Go figure? Doc also platoons the bench a lot with staggering one starter. There are a lot of similarities between both coaches people refuse admit. I get it, Doc has changed the mindset of some of our players but Doc "hasn't proven anything yet"... Just like Doc said to CP3. Lets calm down and wait what Doc can do cause after all, he was brought here to take us to the next level.

namzug
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Let's agree to disagree then. (I actually enjoy the back and forth, I'm guessing you are stubborn as I am when you think you are right)

Vinny supporter is only based on this argument. He had his share of blame, and that's what irks me about this argument. You act as if it would have been the same outcome last year with Doc at the helm from the beginning. That is an invalid argument on both sides since it can only come down to opinion, even if I think it's clear that Doc would do much better.

My argument is that we are better team now then last. Vinny's faults where detrimental to the team, and had their play in the bigs sucking and us relying on Jamal and CP3 playing too much hero ball.

I guess we will find out soon anyway.

jarca
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Vinny supporters arguments

  1. Billups was sucking- Ahhh who decided to play him so many minutes in the playoff. Wasn't minute management and rotations the coach's job.

  2. Jamal Sucking- Vinny made zero adjustment when it came to Jamal. He made him play ISO ball and didn't even design double picks to get him free. Memphis adjusted, how come we didn't.

  3. Our bigs sucks. Vinny decided to not play DJ all season in the 4th and then expected him to play big minutes in the playoff. Did Vinny prepare DJ for this all season?

  4. "It's really difficult to get to the WCF"- Last year was the easiest path to the WCF but we blew a 2-0 lead because the coaching staff didn't make any adjustment. He couldn't even bench Billups. OKC with Westbrook> OKC without Westbrook.

david
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^^Jarca- I edited your post to use the new feature Smile. All I did was change the 1) to 1. and so forth.

jarca
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thanks....

cleepers
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Regarding Chauncey: Chris Paul publicly stated numerous times that he wanted his "big brother" starting alongside him. I wonder... if CP3 had left in free-agency because the organization disrespected his wishes, would you have posted the comment: "it sucks that CP3 left, but at least Vinny made the right call in the playoffs" ...that would have been fun to see.

Regarding Jamal: He was always complimentary about Vinny, mostly because Vinny let him do his thing. Over the summer, he was known to be unhappy because he believed Doc would try to make him change his game to resemble JJ's. Then Doc clarified that "I want Jamal to be Jamal". And who is Jamal? an isolation scorer, so no difference there.

Regarding DJ: There is a concept in sports - as in ALL business - called "being a professional". Perhaps you've heard of it. It entails doing your job to the best of your ability regardless of who you work with and not blaming others for your shortcomings. Do I think that DJ prefers Doc over Vinny? Absolutely, but like you, he'd have preferred literally ANYBODY over Vinny.

There's a guy who took Orlando to the finals, but he couldn't get along with his pouting, immature center either and he also got canned. Does that make him a terrible coach? I congratulate Doc on DJ's improvement, but DJ himself has said that he has matured this year. Let's not forget that Doc wanted him traded for Garnett... just like Vinny did, so once again, not much difference there... except that DJ now knows he was on his last chance with this team, and with the weight Doc carries in the media, if DJ had pulled that petulant sh!t with Doc, the media would have crucufied him and his arse would have been out the door. We owe just as much to Donald Sterling and David Stern for blocking the proposed trade, and to DJ for finally growing the f*ck up, as we do to Doc.

Regarding WCF: It's never "easy". It's all about matchups. Westbrook has actually averaged negative-6 points in +/- in three games against the Clippers this year, so your saying that we had any better chance of beating them last year as opposed to this year is pure speculation. And if a team is automatically weaker with their 2nd best player injured, then we were weaker with Blake playing on one leg... so that's not on Vinny.

Did I miss anything?

You can believe what you like... ignore facts and logic and live in your own little delusion. I guess you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

ClipperKyle32
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I hated Vinny's offensive schemes, rotations, and a lot more , but I do not think he is a bad coach as some of you say. We can't just blow off this guy because we....

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cleepers
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.333 against the Grizz in last year's playoffs.

.333 against the Grizz this year.

It seems they match up well with us no matter who's coaching.

jarca
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Cleepers

  1. Dunno why you brought up CP3 wanting Billups alongside him. That just proved my point that VDN was horrible because as you said he acted as CP3's puppet instead of being a coach.

  2. Jamal just said on a recent 980am interview that he is shooting more set shots this year than ever before. Look at how easily he broke last year's 3 point record even with injuries and all.

  3. DJ was professional. Has he ever been disciplined or kicked out in the locker room or refused to come in the game like KMART? How can he do his job if he's not properly trained?

  4. Anybody who says OKC is better without Westbrook are just reaching too far....

Agent0
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CP wasn't hurt in the post season last year was he? Cause if he was he certainly didn't show it with his performance against Memphis. Sure he had the one dud game, but he scored 23+ in 4/6 games, one other was a 19 pt game and averaged 23/4/6/53% FG, if that was hurt, then what is healthy? I don't remember him being injured last year, two seasons ago, yes, but we would have lost to SA whether he was healthy or not, they were a more talented team, his health would only have helped prevent a sweep.

BG's injury last season gets ignored too much. He didn't even play half the game in game 5 and 6, he played an average of 17 MPG, and Odom was looking worse and was a non-factor on offense all season already.

Jamal is an interesting one, Tony Allen was a bad matchup the whole way, I think we kind of sense that. We couldn't expect him to put up his season averages easily against the #2 defense and a very good individual defender like Allen (though Allen was on Paul a good amount when Jamal and Paul were on together). In his defense, the last game did screw up his averages. In game 1-5 he wasn't anything to get excited about, but he still did average 13 ppg in 29.8 MPG without turning it over (0.6 TPG).

Now, while there were issues, let's not take blame away from Vinny. He was at fault in a good amount of it. He didn't adjust his lineups. He should have started Barnes and Bledsoe, and I'm not saying this in hindsight because I said it even before the series started. He didn't have a counter way of using Jamal if it wasn't isolation. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't iso, but when it isn't working, at least mix it up. He played Billups much more than he should have of course.

Ah well, it's over. Vinny is an average coach, but I just don't get people making it seem like he was horrific.

namzug
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@Agent0, I actually really liked his hiring when it happened (even though I thought the intention was to save money). I just don't think he was the coach we needed once we got CP3. I didn't want him to get an extension the first time, and was actually hoping Olshey would win that battle.

With that said, I just never thought he could mold us into contenders. With the core of players we have and had I thought this was the best window. Those types of windows don't stay open too long, and I thought Vinny would be wasting valuable time. Without CP we would have had to be a lot more patient and probably be where Portland is now. I feel OKC is wasting valuable time with Brooks, he's a guy I'd love as an assistant just not the head coach (maybe if he brought in someone to run the offense for him it would be a different story).

cleepers
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Sums it up perfectly. And because the front-office held onto a known quantity and waited for a real upgrade rather than rushing into panic mode, firing Vinny and hiring the first guy who'd come in for an interview, we now have Doc Rivers instead of another average coach... or worse.

Well done, Donald. The chicken-littles didn't getcha!

cleepers
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Yeah, a REAL man would have completely ignored the wishes of his soon-to-be-free-agent superstar and said: "it's my way or the highway" and then when CP3 walked because his opinion wasn't worth a pinch of sh!t to the Clippers and Vinny was fired for letting him go and no respectable coach would be caught dead on our sidelines because we were the "same old Clippers" - that clusterfuck organization that threw away two elite point-guards in two years - it wouldn't have mattered at all, because you would have kept us all entertained between the end of the regular season and the draft lottery with wonderful posts about how much you respect Vinny for standing up to a superstar player on personnel decisions... just like Phil Jackson did to Kobe when he demanded that Shaq be traded.

Oh, wait... that didn't happen. Maybe Phil is just as much of a pu$$y as Vinny... or maybe free-agency is the only time great players hold all the cards, and the smartest coaches, GM's and owners do whatever they can to make them happy.

But, Oh... what might have been! Why, oh why did the Clippers make Chris Paul feel like he was actually worth something?

tense2
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This and more of this. Plus what Cleepers said^

ClipperKyle32
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This is what I believe about Westbrook. He makes the team better ,but makes Durant worse. He hinders Durant , but liberates the team

proverbs
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Newb here, but long time fan and lurker. I think the main reason why Doc is a better coach is that he has experience deep in the playoffs and has won a ring. Another thing that I don't think anyone mentioned was that players WANT to play for Doc, so it's not just CP3 doing the recruiting anymore. But I did think that VDN was a great coach too. He did let Chris and Jamaal really roam free, but that's what I thought was great about it. If you have the best PG who happens to have the highest basketball IQ in the league, you can let him run the show most nights. And I think his record speaks for itself. Some of my buddies that I watch the games with complained about VDN ALL THE TIME, and I really didn't think he deserved all the hate. As long time Clipper fans, I really think they were just used to complaining about something. Yes, we did get knocked out of the first round, but that was with a hobbling BG. Having your best or top 2 player injured in a playoff series is more to blame than the coach. And let's give the Griz some credit, because teams did NOT want to face them in the playoffs last year. They went all the way to the WCF, and yes, they did get swept by the Spurs, but 2 of those games went to OT and could've went either way. I'm also not so sure we could've taken the Spurs last year even if we were fully healthy.

The reason I thought we needed a coaching change was because it seemed like VDN lost the locker room a bit. Doc came in with championship experience, and that demands respect. Now this team has a decorated coach and another year of experience playing together and some nice new pieces. I think this propels us forward to our first title, either this year or next. Although I do feel if VDN was still coaching, the extra year of experience of playing together would have made the team better and we would've still had a great shot at the finals, I think that Doc brings that extra push that we need.

cleepers
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^ Welcome, mate. Great post. Hope to hear more from you.

Agent0
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I think that's a fine opinion. I don't think Vinny can win a series against a guy like Pop if all things are equal because I don't think he can win the adjustment game. I don't think he had enough versatility as a coach yet (maybe he learns later) to be able to adjust enough, and he didn't have enough clout or history of success to get his players to buy into what he was doing all the time.

I think we all agree he wasn't a championship level coach, mainly in terms of defensive coaching, because if he was an elite defensive coach, the Clippers if healthy could have survived with the level of their offense. The problem is that people want to hate on him so much that they don't give him props for what he did do well, especially for an average coach. He won 56 games with the team, sure, adding Paul alone basically made the team a 50 win team (which was the winning percentage in 11-12, approximately that of a 50 win team), and yes, his defensive system wasn't stable and wasn't one to rely on in the post season (similar to the 90's Sonics under George Karl who played a similar trapping / pressure defense that relied on forcing turnovers and in the post-season against the better teams it generally was not so good anymore despite the regular season ranking suggesting a fairly good defense), but from 11-12 to 12-13, he made adjustments that made the team better. What more can we ask from an average coach than for him to improve?

If Vinny had gotten the stretch big man he wanted and if the team had guy on the wing to defend well, even with his faults, a lot of what he implemented would have worked better.

The defense changed, he went to the hard hedge / trapping defense, that yes, while it has playoff faults and faults against teams that won't succumb to the pressure and turn it over, it was a very good early season defensive strategy and killed teams with shaky ball handlers. Jamal Crawford was great with Atlanta, but was terrible with Portland. Vinny put him in a role more conducive to his playing style. Barnes actually had a pretty good year in LAL till he got injured, but Mike Brown limited what he was allowed to do, and Vinny made him more comfortable and had him be maximally productive. He added some different elements to the offense such as using the Paul mid-post iso more which every CP coach ends up using because Paul is so good at it. He inserted some nice set plays with BG, he got the team to do more of the drag screen, had Blake/Paul pick and roll where Blake was the ball handler. He tried to push the pace more and though he didn't fully succeed he got the team playing faster than 11-12.

Yes, he did not know how to coach defense at an elite level or to make the 2nd and 3rd adjustments on offense consistently (not never), but if he did those things then he wouldn't be an average coach, that's the whole point. If Vinny was able to do all the things mentioned then he'd be one of the league's best coaches.

A clear difference between Vinny and Doc can be seen in the current starting lineup and similar to what a few said all last season. Doc is starting Collison and Paul, both much smaller and much less capable of guarding SG's than Bledsoe. Vinny did not have the vision to start Bledsoe and Paul last season while Billups was out despite their high effectiveness together on both ends. Those little differences change things. You want the most minutes to go to your best players, and Doc said despite the height disadvantage, the best way to have my best players on the floor as much as possible is to start Collison. That doesn't mean Vinny is horrible, but yes, he's not a great or very good coach, he's about as good as the average guy, but we've never really claimed much more.

Yes, in the right situation, even an average level coach can win a lot of games:

Mike Brown:

66-16, 61-21

Avery Johnson:

60-22 (Finals), 67-15

I guess people consider D'Antoni average because he can't coach defense, but to me when he has the right roster he's a genius offensive mind, but you do need to coach defense.

jarca
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Oh wait So CP is all of the sudden this coach killer who it's his way or the high way? So basically you're saying that CP put a gun on his head and say put Billups in I don't care if we win or lose. That's just your speculation or imagination. The fact is Billups played significant amount of minutes when he shouldn't have. Bledsoe and Paul starting line NEVER happened like CP and Collison back court.

Oh wait all of last year, the substitution and rotation were controlled by CP. That include EBled not getting enough minutes.

Damn, it's either CP is a cancer to this team or VDN has lost complete control of the situation

Which one is it again?

cleepers
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No, those are your words, not mine.

Vinny did what made CP3 feel comfortable. Maybe it wasn't even in the best short-term interests of the team... I won't even speculate on that. But the best floor general on the planet is going to be wearing a Clippers jersey long term... and I for one am happy about that.

As I already said... the smartest coaches, GM's and owners will do whatever they can to keep their best players happy. Especially when free-agency is looming.

Agent0
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I just said it in my previous post, but Vinny just didn't have the vision to make the change, but to be fair, most of the fans here didn't want it either, and there were only a few of us who felt that it was the best move as most people were to worried about how the shooting would be affected. Maybe Vinny felt pressured, though I'm not even sure it would be by Paul, but by Billups himself because Billups was a leader of the team and a leader in the locker room and you didn't want to just remove him from your rotation or cause any issues there.

Paul and Bledsoe should have been starting for the 50+ games that Paul/Green started together, that's one that I will say is a showing of him not being more than an average coach to not see that, but that doesn't make him horrible either. After Billups came back, not wanting to "mess up a good thing", Billups should have been the backup PG playing Bledsoe's role, which would work with how many minutes they wanted to give him and put him back in a more comfortable role where he's the primary ball handler.

Part of being a coach is being a good salesman to the players, and he needed to have been able to sell Billups the advantages of coming off the bench (primary ball handler, restrict minutes to prevent injury, etc, etc, whatever you need to tell him), but you need to put your best players and do what is best for the team.

jarca
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That's called having a communication with your player. So is CP truly unreasonable that a coach cannot approach him and have a sensible conversation for what's right for the team. You're making CP look like a monster here.

You do know Shaquille got traded after losing to the Piston right and the coach was no longer Phil?

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I don't think Vinny felt pressured by Paul, but I think he felt pressured by the possibility of losing Paul.

CP had said numerous times that he felt more comfortable alongside Chauncey. My guess is that he trusted Chauncey's customary "conservative" style of running an offense more than Bledsoe's 200mph, somewhat turnover-prone style... but I'm just speculating. I feel like he just thought Chauncey was a safer bet to help him conserve energy through games and series.

I think Chris was just too close to Chauncey to accept that he was no longer the player he used to be.

If Vinny had had CP's signature on a long-term deal, or his own future with the club secured, or both... maybe he might have been a little more experimental. Maybe not, but the one absolute was that he would definitely get fired if CP left... so he kept him happy and the team is better off today because of that.

When I look at how far this ball-club advanced during del Negro's tenure, I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and wish him well. Some of the bitterness shown towards him on this forum smacks of ingratitude and hastily-developed sense of entitlement from the "nouveau riche".

clipper*joe
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http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... rays-clean

proverbs
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Honestly, I'm not a man that likes to argue much, so I'm just trying to understand. I do think Doc is a better coach, but I don't think I agree with the way most people here think VDN is a total bum. My question is, if Doc was coaching the Clips last year, would the team's end result be that much different? Would they have gotten past the very physical Grizzlies with an injured BG and a banged up CP?

I think the team is better this year because of them playing another year together and because of Doc. But if Doc was coaching last year, I'm not so sure the results would have been much better.

The_Blake_Show
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Doc vs VDN? Really? Is VDN at fault? Yes. Without a shout of a doubt.

VDN didn't have the knowledge to guide the Clippers during the regular season not to mention the post season where it's all about X's and O's.

VDN doesn't have a system, VDN doesn't focus on defense, and it seemed like VDN wasn't the main voice in that locker room.

VDN, at the end of the day, just wasn't enough and i'm glad Sterling pursued Doc.

Doc is more than just X's and O's Doc is here to establish and cement the culture change around the Clippers organization and eliminate all that negative history surrounding the Clippers organization.

Even if the Clippers get knocked out in the first or second round (Highly doubtful) Doc has done much more in a season than VDN did in his whole tenure with the Clippers

Just look at Blake's and DJ's confidence and progress from one season to another. The teams morale when struggling but still capable getting the win.

Doc can not be harshly judged after one season But this is L.A. where everything gets blown out of proportion right?

cleepers
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^ Funny, I didn't see the posts where anybody is judging Doc harshly, or the ones where anybody said they weren't happy that we have Doc now.

roll Yet another person who can't see the forest for the trees.

During Vinny's tenure, our W/L%, ORtg and DRtg improved every single year. Not just when CP3 arrived, but the season before and the season after. So just to reiterate... the Clippers got measurably BETTER every single year that Vinny was in charge.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your preconceptions. If your gut feeling that "he just sucks" is good enough for you, that's fine.

namzug
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Wait Vinny was only here one year here without CP3. That would play a part on his team improving every year. The first year with CP being a short season due to the lockout.

The feeling is not that Vinny sucks, it's that he's not a championship level coach. I think it's crazy to be able to think that he would be able to win one a title. I would bet a lot of money that he never gets to an NBA finals as a head coach. I wouldn't bet the same thing against Doc. Vinny peaked last year and it was a good thing we moved on, because I think the majority of us want to be a championship team not a regular season team. I would say that Vinny sucks in comparison to Doc or Pop.

We are a better team with Doc. We have a better defense with Doc. We have a better offense with Doc. I don't see the similarities in last years team and this years team other than the players. You could show me stats all day, but we all know of those are inflated by the great run in November. This year consistency has been there. Perfection is being chased. We look more and more like a great organization instead of one trying to get it together. Moving to Doc from Vinny was vital in this happening.

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I think Del Negro sucks relative to other NBA coaches. I also think Mike Brown sucks despite whatever success had in Cleveland. I think people to tend to significantly overstate the difference between a good coach and bad coach. Most of the time coaches are marginal improvements, and that matters in the playoffs when the teams are extremely closely matched, you need every tiny edge you can get, but most of time it's not as big a deal

VDN did some things that were poor, like how he distributed minutes to guys like Bledsoe, Jordan or Barnes last year. He also did some things that were short sighted like yanking Jordan whenever he was struggling and wasn't willing to suffer through Griffin learning to play better at the end of games. Rivers has let Jordan play through and learn from his mistakes and forced Griffin to step at the end of games. These decisions might have hurt us some short term at the start of year, but they are paying now and will continue to payoff.

clipper*joe
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Great post!

repped.

cleepers
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Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_04

How are those stats "inflated" by a winning streak? They are games we WON!

Vinny should be penalized because he presided over the longest streak in our history? Would it be more meaningful if he'd have broken it down into maybe 4 x 4-game streaks with a loss or two in between each?

If you think that was a "soft-spot" in the schedule, that's fine... but that only means that the rest of the season was against that much more challenging opponents.

And the trouble with saying that he sucks "compared to Doc or Pop" is that they were never the options to replace him when everybody here was screaming for his head. Just like this whole season when people have been dogging Dudley... of course everyone would rather have LeBron or Durant at the SF, but it's not a realistic option.

I willingly named coaches who I thought were better than Vinny on the "fire VDN" thread ad nauseum, Popovich and Doc among them. And if I'd read any credible report that Pop wanted to coach the Clippers, I'd have signed up in a heartbeat and advocated paying Vinny to go away... but it never happened.

People here wanted Vinny dumped for unknown commodities like Shaw, Budenholzer and Malone... wanted us to bring 71-year-old Jerry Sloan out of retirement, when even the Bobcats wouldn't hire him... even wanted us to throw money at the laker-owner's fiance!

But no, Joe and I strongly advocated standing pat with a guy who was steadily improving the team until a definitive upgrade was available instead of just "marrying the first guy who smiled in our direction". We got tons of sh!t for it from all directions.

Now tell me you'd rather be locked into a 3 year deal with Brian Shaw right now instead of having Doc... I dare you!

jarca
CTB MVP X2
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Great Post. Repped. All Star becomes superstars immediately after he leaves and the team becomes instantly better.

namzug
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No, but if the choice was between Vinny and those guys I'd take my chances with the field. I would take Sloan over Vinny in a heartbeat, and Mike Malone too.

clipper*joe
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And We (Cleepers and I) said skip them and wait it out. People were actually crying a river cause the coaching field was drying up. I was stoked we got Doc and said it was the right choice. Now tell me, who was right? You or Cleepers and I? Don't bother answering, it was rhetorical. Any answer besides saying I was right is a lie.

cleepers
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For the rest of time, right next to the very first time the Los Angeles Clippers ever won anything (2012/13 Pacific division champions) will be the words "coach: V. del Negro".

Hate on the man all you like... but nobody can ever take that away from him. If I were Vinny, I'd smile every day thinking about how much that eats at the haters. Very Happy

Thanks, Vinny.

namzug
Clipper All-Star
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Hey if Doc gets one that has "NBA Champions" next to Docs that is great. You guys take this all wrong, we got the peak out of Vinny that's great. It was time to move on and we did, things fell in place to get a certifiable great coach. You two are the ones that were saying he hasn't proven anything yet. Now it's you two that had someone like Doc in mind the whole time, LMAO! You guys are also still claiming that we aren't a better team than last year.

@Clipper*Joe, you must have known something then (let me borrow your crystal ball, so I could get the next Powerball numbers). You were right it worked out very well for us, because now we have one of the best coaches of this era instead of a mediocre one.

clipper*joe
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No, I don't have a crystal ball but just about anyone with any semblance of smarts knows you don't dump the coach who just broke records galore (still holds them) for a unknown commodity or a tired old reject and think things will be better. It's as simple as that...Really.

jarca
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But you two were the ones who were also putting most of the blame on players and making excuses for VDN. Well players like DJ are still here while VDN is gone. So who was right? The clippers organization and 98% of this forum posters or you two?

namzug
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
Location: So Cal
votes: 10

Except for us, Denver, and Memphis. You better go fill your resume out you are a shoe in, you know something they don't. Vinny is great if you all you want is divisional championships while having one of the better rosters in the NBA.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10703 ... n-magazine

namzug
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look at what Grant Hill thinks about your argument.

cleepers
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Yes, we still have many of the same players and a couple of them improved drastically... and now we got rid of SUCH a bad coach (who was "holding us back"), WCF should be a piece of cake, right?

Because as we already know, your method of judging coaching performance allows no excuses for injuries, players underperforming or anything else of that nature.

We SHOULD DEFINITELY have gotten there for the last two seasons regardless of those factors, and now that the only impediment has been removed... what's stopping us?

namzug
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1056
Location: So Cal
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Let's hope so @Cleepers. I mean not a piece of cake with a healthy OKC but getting there, but at least not getting swept after a two game lead in the first round. It wasn't all Vinny's fault (but he did have his part, how big that is can be argued some other time), but I would argue now that we are better suited for the playoffs this year over last years team.

I think the goal is the NBA finals with a championship, not the WCF.

cleepers
CTB MVP X2
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Oh, a stink-eye! Discussion over. No matter that Jamal constantly praised Vinny... only players who agree with you know what they're talking about.

Maybe Grant shares your opinion of Vinny abilities, maybe he just dislikes him personally... or maybe he just has indigestion from a dodgy f**king burrito!

You're really reaching now.

jarca
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 7991

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Did I miss something? Last I checked that Pacific Division champ that you guys bragged about only gave us a first round exit. So why WCF when we didn't even make it out the first round.

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