Doc Rivers vs Vinny Del Negro (P. 4)

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cleepers
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That's idiotic. The Clippers organization did EXACTLY what Joe and I proposed. They waited for a clear upgrade instead of taking YOUR view that even a monkey in a suit is better than Vinny, so we should fire him prematurely.

If they'd listened to you, we'd never have gotten Doc.

jarca
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That's just Jamal being professional. You want players to be professional right? How did Jamal feel about VDN after Memphis series

jarca
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You woulda traded half this roster Razz

Starting with DJ

cleepers
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DOC wanted to trade DJ!

The deal was that he brought Garnett with him and Pierce would follow after being bought out.

jarca
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But He said he wanted DJ all along To paraphrase: You don't give up on a guy with that much talent so quickly. He said it not me

cleepers
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You screamed "Fire Vinny" for 2 years. Joe and I said "wait for something better than what's available right now".

The front office agreed with us and the team got better because of it.

You were wrong... suck it up, dude.

cleepers
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AFTER Stern nixed the Garnett deal... to quote a recent post of yours... "he was just being professional".

jarca
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Ummm we were on the same page the first year CP got here. Remember the good ole days when we used to share the same opinion. I started screaming Fire VDN last year after I saw him make zero adjustments to our bigs development and his rotations.

jarca
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Nope... He said it he didn't want DJ to be included and he insisted unless you got a direct quote saying other wise.

cleepers
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You mean when Doc wasn't available?

When we'd have had to settle for one of the lesser coaches who were?

OK, if the F.O. had listened to your advice last year... who would you have had them hire who's better than Doc?

cleepers
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DJ was the only piece Ainge wanted for Garnett... and Doc was prepared to sign with us in a DJ/pick for Doc/KG trade. The deal was done until the league stepped in.

How was he against trading DJ when that was the deal HIS PEOPLE f**king negotiated?

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts".

namzug
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So it's you with the crystal ball? You knew that Doc Rivers was going to be available. You guys are taking credit for knowing the right move, but are the ones arguing that we are not better until we prove it.

So are we better now or not?

Grant Hill sure seemed to be rolling his eyes after Charles said that the organization threw him under the bus, that could mean a ton of things but it sure doesn't look like a positive for Vinny. Jamal was worried that Doc was going to put a leash on him, and also knew that Vinny relied on his Iso play. Vinny had a tight leash on the younger players and let the veterans loose. Doc has seemed to be very similar with Big Baby, Dudley, Reggie, and everyone else.

@Jarca, just pointed out that Doc said he didn't want to trade DJ that he had no say at that point. He wanted KG, but not at the expense of DJ. It may have been smoke and mirrors, but those were his words. He also seemed ok with trading KG for DJ during the prior season before he was part of the package, so maybe he just saw something you, Vinnya and Clipper*Joe didn't.

jarca
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I ask for a quote and you can't even give me one. So how does that become an opinion when you're the one making an assumption.

cleepers
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^ It's not an assumption. The deal was done... it was presented to the league, and THEY were the ones who squashed it.

How about you find me a quote from before Stern shot down the deal that says: "I want to coach the Clippers, but only if Kevin Garnett doesn't come with me"?

See how that works?

CapsNClips
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The "my dad can beat up your dad" argument has a better chance for resolution than this one.

Get out while you still can gentleman.

jarca
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Was VDN contract not renewed. Were they already interviewing because there's a job vacancy? So did they really waited after VDN was officially out until they started interviewing. You're making it sound like the clippers were holding on to VDN until Doc became available.

namzug
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DJ was the only piece Ainge wanted for Garnett... and Doc was prepared to sign with us in a DJ/pick for Doc/KG trade. The deal was done until the league stepped in. How was he against trading DJ when that was the deal HIS PEOPLE f**king negotiated? You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts".
maybe this will help: It was a side deal that the NBA nixed because such side deals go against league rules. Rivers said he's happy the deal fell apart. He had hoped there would be a way for the Clippers to land Garnett, but not....

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cleepers
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Nobody knew Doc would become available. We simply took a "wait and see" approach instead of flying into panic-mode and saddling the franchise with a long-term coach who may have only been a lateral move.

It turned out to be a good call. Simple as that. Even though we were attacked for it non-stop for 2 years.

Do I think we're better now? Yes, I do. But we've also gotten better in ALL of the previous 3 seasons, and the way some people bemoan Vinny's abilities on here, his ineptitude was the only thing holding us back from reaching the conference finals. If we don't make it this year, that statement is undeniably false.

cleepers
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Notice that quote is from 4 months after the trade was nixed. Was he supposed to say, "Yeah, I wanted KG, but I'm stuck with DJ so I guess I'll just make lemonade from that lemon".

He obviously wasn't against trading DJ or he wouldn't have agreed to come here with DJ going the other way!

How can you not see that?

Sure, he'd have loved to have both... but that was never an option.

clipper*joe
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DJ was as good as gone and you know it. If not for Stern blocking additional trades with the celtics, DJ was a goner. So who was right on DJ before Stern blocking the trade? Me , Doc, and the organization or you?

Razz

clipper*joe
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Oh Jarca, before you come out with, "but who's right now about DJ", spare it. That was a blessing in disguise and it worked out. But lets be honest, Doc, Sacks, and the Clippers were more willing to keep Bledsoe ("Not Bledsoe but you can have DJ") than DJ. So yeah, it worked out in the end but it doesn't change the facts.

clipper*joe
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I don't know something they don't, I ain't that smart but I do have common sense. Can't say that about some people though. You don't make questionable moves unless you know for a fact that it's clear upgrade. Doesn't take much intelligence to know there wasn't a clear upgrade until doc came along.

jarca
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maybe this will help: It was a side deal that the NBA nixed because such side deals go against league rules. Rivers said he's happy the deal fell apart. He had hoped there would be a way for the Clippers to land Garnett, but not at the expense of Jordan. "I couldn't get involved in that whole thing," Rivers said. "That was the strangest thing in the world. I was seeing the trade talks and I was saying, 'Wait a minute! We don't want to give away that guy!' We wanted that other guy too. That was the home run to get....

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clipper*joe
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I took it as Hill looked very uncomfortable when Barkley pulled his covers on national TV. Great find!

You know there is truth when the guy starts squirming in his seat and has bulging eyes but stays quiet. But most importantly, did you hear what Barkley said about them being "wussies" and throwing VDN under the Bus?!?!

You sure you thought about putting that video up before posting? That's for the help. Very Happy

clipper*joe
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Maybe if DJ and the rest of the guys showed up things would have been different. Injured BJ had to guard Gasol cause our center couldn't.

jarca
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So Doc was working with Sacks before he even got here? Where did you hear that. Back it up please

clipper*joe
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It's called damage control. he did the same thing when Barnes and Collison were almost traded right at the deadline. Doc not only works on his players, he has fans believing it too.

cleepers
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No jarca, the FACT is that if David Stern had allowed the deal to proceed in it's original form, DJ would be wearing green and Doc would still be the coach of the Clippers.

He agreed to coming here even if DJ was going the other way... that is a FACT.

clipper*joe
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Well, if THEY agreed to trade DJ, wouldn't it be Doc, Sacks, and the Clippers agreeing to trade him? Was Sacks only responsible for that trade without Doc knowing it? Remember, Ainge allowed the Clippers to talk with Doc before the trade. Add it up...

jarca
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IF IF What IF... now we're playing the hypothetical games again.

First you said Ainge wanted DJ "only piece Ainge wanted"

Then Doc wanted him gone for Garnett

Which one is it? You're changing your stories but my has remained consistent that Doc wanted him here

CP3Best
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I just have to say that we would've lost by 40 if Vinny was coaching us tonight, down 17 nothing going our way, offense, defense, calls, and we still came back to win, I was ready to close the game, till I thought let me just see how it goes in the 4th. Doc has taught this team toughness, Mental toughness, to come back from 17 down and somehow win!

CP3Best
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BTW AM I the only one who saw those clear path fouls? Damn refs 1st one Could be debatable somehow although or player was still in front OBVIOUSLY, but the 2nd?!?! Griffin was CLEARLY ahead of the whole pack! Those refs even know what a clear path foul is?

namzug
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Oh Jarca, before you come out with, "but who's right now about DJ", spare it. That was a blessing in disguise and it worked out. But lets be honest, Doc, Sacks, and the Clippers were more willing to keep Bledsoe ("Not Bledsoe but you can have DJ") than DJ. So yeah, it worked out in the end but it doesn't change the facts.
So wait, DJ was a blessing in disguise; but Doc becoming available was what you guys had in mind the whole time. Wait @Clipper*Joe, are you SirCharles in disguise? He goes over the deep end all the....

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cleepers
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Your post makes no sense.

Ainge wanted Bledsoe and Jordan for Doc and Garnett. Clips said no to Bledsoe. Ainge settled for a pick instead and tried to fob us off with Jason Terry or Courtney Lee's bad contracts. Clips said no again.

The deal that was finally presented to the league was Doc/Garnett for DJ/pick. Clippers, Celtics, Garnett (no-trade clause) and Doc (3 more years) all agreed. League said no because you can't trade a player for a coach.

Doc was coming here with or without DJ staying. Those are the facts. Deal with it.

jarca
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Teams are allowed to negotiate. Just because Ainge wants something doesn't mean Doc wants it. Just because Ainge wants something doesn't mean it's final. Even when Clippers were throwing DJ into the mix it was never final. Was deal ever struck and reported as final and then Stern Veto it like CP trade? I don't remember the two teams coming into an agreement only for the league to veto it.

ClipperKyle32
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My face Every Time I see that we are debating Vinny Del Negro vs Doc Rivers Grant Hill's face after Chuck saying the Clips through VDN under the bus https://vine.co/v/MqBW3WnX25M I mean come on there in no....

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namzug
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Those are your words. Show us where Doc had agreed with it, other than assumptions from stuff going on(we all know what happens when you assume things). I showed you the quotes where Doc said that wasn't his deal. You guys keep speaking on things that unless you work for the Clippers organization have no real substance and are just stating opinions.

Maybe Doc did want his old star player with him for DJ, maybe he didn't want to give up DJ. He might have been ok with a different package getting KG for Bledsoe. What he said in what I quoted was that he didn't want to give up DJ, that's not my opinion those were his words in print. I don't see any quotes in your posts.

CapsNClips
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Weren't you the one who said Grant Hill disliked Vinny because he rolled his eyes on camera? There are no quotes stating Grant's distaste towards Vinny, that's just your opinion.

It seems very hypocritical to demand concrete evidence on one subject, but ask people to look past the lack of factual evidence on another because it helps your argument.

cleepers
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Those are your words. Show us where Doc had agreed with it
This is ridiculous. How could the Clippers and Celtics even pursue the deal without Doc and KG's consent? The teams awoke Thursday, sources said, close to an agreement on separate transactions that would land Garnett and Rivers in Los Angeles. The first is a proposed one-for-one player swap that would send Clippers center DeAndre Jordan to Boston for Garnett, who would waive his no-trade clause to clinch the deal. The second move would require the Clippers to convey two first-round picks to Boston as compensation for the Celtics....

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Mistwell
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I agree, and said the same thing when it happened.

namzug
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Where are you quoting Doc's approval?

Doc is being traded in this instance, how does he get a say in what the Clippers do before he is there in regards to trading for other players? Doc could say I won't play for you if trade for me, but outside of that I don't think he could much else unless he had permission from Ainge. Doc works for Ainge at the moment this is going down. I'm sure he is telling Ainge, oh hell no you better give me KG. Either way close to an agreement is not Doc saying that he was down with the whole thing.

clipper*joe
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So wait, DJ was a blessing in disguise; but Doc becoming available was what you guys had in mind the whole time. Wait @Clipper*Joe, are you SirCharles in disguise? He goes over the deep end all the time, and I would take more weight in Hill's reaction to something that of an analyst on the outside looking in thought. "Charles has his opinions," said Del Negro. "And sometimes they aren't very accurate." http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/06/sports/la-sp-simers-clippers-2 0130307 LMAO, ok so now we are a better team. This argument started with you guys saying we haven't proven anything and aren't a better team until that happens.....

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clipper*joe
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Cause Ainge allowed the Clippers and Doc to negotiate a contract! lol

Oh, and just to refresh you memory, the same thing happened before CP3 came here. CP3 was still under contract but the hornets allowed CP3 to negotiate with the Clippers. Cp3 asked for Caron Butler and keeping DJ before he would agree to a trade. If a player under contract could do that, why couldn't a coach do it? Think about it...

cleepers
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Where are you quoting Doc's approval? Doc is being traded in this instance, how does he get a say in what the Clippers do before he is there in regards to trading for other players? Doc could say I won't play for you if trade for me, but outside of that I don't think he could much else unless he had permission from Ainge. Doc works for Ainge at the moment this is going down. I'm sure he is telling Ainge, oh hell no you better give me KG. Either way close to an agreement is not Doc....

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jarca
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This is ridiculous. How could the Clippers and Celtics even pursue the deal without Doc and KG's consent? The teams awoke Thursday, sources said, close to an agreement on separate transactions that would land Garnett and Rivers in Los Angeles. The first is a proposed one-for-one player swap that would send Clippers center DeAndre Jordan to Boston for Garnett, who would waive his no-trade clause to clinch the deal. The second move would require the Clippers to convey two first-round picks to Boston as compensation for the Celtics agreeing to let Rivers out of the three years and $21 million left....

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cleepers
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^ Because if he said that, he would be a f**king idiot. If the only evidence you'll accept is a quote that nobody in their right mind would make because it could come back to bite them in the arse, there's just no helping you.

jarca
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back to square 1 I guess. Let's just read minds and ignore the facts ayyyy Sad

cleepers
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^ What facts?

The fact that Doc isn't stupid enough to say "Yeah, I didn't really give a rat's arse about keeping DJ"... because that's the only fact I see. Doc is a smart guy and knows how to make lemonade from lemons. That's why he gets the big bucks.

And no, we're not back to square one. Doc HAD to give his permission for the Celtics to release him. News was everywhere of a KG/DJ trade. Doc still gave his permission.

Show me where Doc said keeping DJ was a prerequisite to him coming here BEFORE Stern nixed the KG deal. If you can't find that quote, you've got nothing.

=Om@R=
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Uh .... Duh ?

namzug
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It's not that all we'll accept, it's that anything else is an opinion.

Of course he had agreed to be traded himself, but making decisions for the Clippers before he is even on the team is what I'm talking about. You guys keep throwing in these assumptions, and say that we are the ones full of opinions. @Clipper*Joe, yeah it could have been very likely that he discussed what he wanted to do, but it could also be likely that he was more concerned with being named Senior Vice President of basketball operations to make sure Sterling didn't mess with his process.

@Cleepers, You mad bro? I'm not trolling you, I'm just arguing my side. I've actually liked your take on previous topics, we just don't agree on this one. I don't need help, I just refuse to assume (assume = to make an 'a$$' out of 'u' and 'me').

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