Doc Rivers vs Vinny Del Negro (P. 7)

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MuteHaitian
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Actually, I'd argue that the recipe for long-term success does indeed start with switching out a single person. His name is Donald Sterling.

CP3Best
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Doc traded Bledsoe cause we needed someone other than DAMN Billups to start. Dudley has been a flat out dissapointment, he was supposed to be goo and start. Barnes was put in the starting lineup out of necessity. You're trying to twist my words, truth is we would have lost in the 1st round with Vinny, cause it was a constant adjustment battle between coaches. Vinny would have never given a chance to DJ to be so good, our 3 pt defense would still be the worst in the league rather than BEST and our offense would have no flow. Jameson, Mullens=Dissapointments, they were supposed to be good, and our big men off the bench. Honestly I have no idea what you're trying to say... If you're saying that Doc is not better than Vinny you're delusional, give Doc at least one more year for the players to memorize the system, they said it themselves they barely got to know what kind of team they were till the playoffs with all the personnel changes.

CP3Best
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Truth is we go as far as our superstars take us... Blake won us game 7, CP3 won us game 1, Defense won us game 4, CP3 lost us game 5, team lost us game 6...

Steady818
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Starts with the 5 players on the court. Any coach can set up a gameplan, it is up to the players to execute that gameplan. I am pretty confident doc was yelling at CP3 to turn the ball over late in the game. I am pretty sure he didn't yell at CP3 to foul Russel while he shot that 3. It comes down to how the players execute every play. Obviously to be a championship team you need a identity and that identity is yet to be determined.

As i said when VDN was our coach and i will say it while Doc is our coach. The players are the ones who aren't getting it done, and without VDN as an easy scapegoat some people are coming around to what me, you joe and a few others were saying back in those days. It's very easy to blame the coach and think changing him would have changed everything. But its very apparent now that the flaws fall around the core set of guys we have. I still find DJ as a liability for us no matter his improvement and i still think we need 2 elite wing defenders and the 2 and the 3 spot. The problem was never our coaching it was our surrounding of players and that in my eyes is still there.

clipper*joe
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"Truth is" nothing...You don't know when we would have lost in the playoffs with VDN. That's your truth...errr...Opinion. I never said VDN was better than Doc. Didn't you read any of my posts...That's plain ignant.

cleepers
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Touche. While I would always advise caution in using the "anybody but _______" philosophy, I do agree that there are many, many more clear upgrades available at the owner position than there ever were at the head coach position.

Steady818
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That is just out of necessity at this point. It has to happen, if our owner is not forced out and gone than following this team will be impossible. As long as DTS owns this team we won't even have half decent players come and sign with us. If he remains the owner i will not just go and follow another team, i will stop following basketball in general.

Steady818
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Doc traded Caron for Reddick essentially. He could have kept bledsoe and stayed away from Dudley, but he didn't. He replaced Billups with Reddick. Doc made every deal happen. He put a core together that he thought would work. It didn't, how could you sit there and give him so much praise for getting us to where we got this year yet not point out his obvious short comings as well? WE were supposed to be in the conference finals, ask some we were suppose to be a championship team. We fell short, whether we get there with VDN or not is a moot point he is not our coach and it doesn't matter what he could've or couldn't have done.

POINT IS DOC AND OUR PLAYERS FAILED..

CP3Best
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I DO know, cause lat year we lost in the 1st round, and previous year we got swept in the 2nd... roll

clipper*joe
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So in order to take what you said seriously, did you guess that we would lose in the first round last season, and second round the year prior? Cause if you didn't, what you just said makes absolutely no sense. lmao stone

ClipperKyle32
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Can we really blame Doc for Dudley's shortcomings? I mean at first glance it was a great trade. Dudley and Redick were knock down shooters that shot close to 40% from deep. Doc went off....

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clipper*joe
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What about Mullens?

Does Jamsion count?

According to your rationale, coaches should not be held accountable for any player that doesn't produce the same as he did the year prior. Not buying that. Those are the types of moves coaches get fired for.

CP3Best
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Vinny had a damn limit! That's what I'm saying! And had not CP3 turned it over we would've been up 3-2 in the 2nd damn round. Doc took our next to worst 3pt defense and turned it to the BEST (by the numbers). With Vinny's game to game defense change Golden State would've run away with the win. IN THE 1ST ROUND! That's how I KNOW Doc is better.

clipper*joe
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Vinny had a limit? Are you a moron? How the **** do you know? And speaking of stupid, explain this sentence:

"Doc took our league next to worst 3pt defense and turned it to the BEST (by the numbers)."

I assume you meant Clippers, not league....Is that right, stupid?

ClipperKyle32
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The coaches only responsibility is to put the players in a position to succeed. The rest of it is on the players to actually capitalize on thise opportunities... If they do not. It's not the....

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ClipperSean
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ClipperJOE: What's your answer to the poll question in this thread?

Steady818
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Repped High Quality Post

The argument stands as is. When VDN was coach everything was pinned on him and the players were only being held back by him and than a change of coach would magically make us champions.

Now here is where things get tricky here for a lot of folks. Doc comes in, his team comes up short and he manages to only accomplish what VDN had accomplished here in L.A. but all of a sudden Doc is being praised and that all the short comings fall on the players.

What's my point? Why is there a double standard when it comes to judging people. Obviously the problem wasn't just the coach that is all that is being presented here. All i see is people flipping words here and trying to pretend we are arguing VDN is a better coach, when in reality were just saying that the coach wasn't our one major flaw from when VDN was around.

clipper*joe
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I didn't take the poll. But if you like to look, I answered it on several posts in this thread.

ClipperSean
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I agree. There are/were more factors in play. My point is that, Doc earned the right to get the "benefit of the doubt" and VDN hasn't and did not get it. With that being said, if he under performs year after year, he doesn't get a pass or anything.

You are right, the coach wasn't the only major problem we had. BUT the coach was the only major problem we could easily change. Which we have. Which is one big step in the right direction.

worm
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The only difference between the two coaches, the players respected Doc Rivers they believe in him while Del Negro the players threw him out of the bus when they are losing even the culprit why the Clippers lose the series because of the players always choked.

CapsNClips
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A coaches job is to get the most out of his players.

DeAndre Jordan got exponentially better under Doc.

Blake Griffin jumped into the elite category under Doc.

Chris Paul became a better team player this year and trusted his teammates more.

Jamal Crawford won 6th man this year under Doc.

Darren Collison proved he can be a starter this year as opposed to last year on the Mavs.

Matt Barnes became a starter and made a huge impact later in the season.

JJ Redick proved to be an important piece for a title run even with an injured back.

All those players got better from the previous year.

Can he draw up a play to perfection?....Check. Can he create the deadliest offensive/defensive combo system in the league?....Check. Can he get his players to believe in a system?....Check. What more does a coach in this league have to do before the blame can be taken off his shoulders?

This is the a National Basketball Association. There are no guarantees in this league. Sometimes **** just happens and we happened to draw the short end of the stick.

ClipperSean
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I was hoping you would spare me.

ClipperSean
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And having a coach that players respect is extremely important. Probably the most important attribute a coach can have.

ClipperKyle32
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I have never said Vinny was a bad coach. I agree with you. Vinny was the scapegoat. Similar to how Scott Brooks is with OKC. If they get bounced or lose a few. Its never....

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CP3Best
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League worst 3pt defense ie worst 3pt defense in the league, that was his "limit" along with not developing an offensive system. 3 years under him, 3 years no halfcourt offense, and no 3pt defense = LIMIT what else would you call that HUH? Limit, Weakness, Incapability, Incompetence, Ineptitude SAME DIFFERENCE! Now can you stop lobbying for Vinny? His agent paid you or something?

cleepers
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Dude, that's a warning.

I let you get away with the STFU stuff once already on this thread because you've been here a while and I know that Joe has no problem taking care of himself, but any more posts like that and you're liable to be banned. If you can't debate without insulting other people, you need to either brush up your debate skills or re-examine the point you're trying to make.

And Joe, there's no need to respond in kind.

CP3Best
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Sorry, didn't really intend it as an insult. I'll remove it straightway...

Agent0
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We are in full agreement here. 11-12 we were at best a second round team, bad defense, stagnant offense, CP gets injured at the end of game 5. We were already severely disadvantaged vs a team like SA, and the 1-2 wins we could have gotten in a 5-6 game series loss died with the CP injury and non-existent defense on every Spur not named Tony Parker.

Last season, again, going into the playoffs, and with Billups was back starting and not being so good, I said this team only goes far if everything works out perfectly (when does that happen?). If Billups played like 11-12, if they figured out defense and if Odom's shot starts clicking (lol). Primarily though I said what I always say, we had to defend. We were the worst defensive team in the playoffs and wasted two great offensive games by Paul in game 5 and 6 because of terrible defense and required two real pod ones and a game winner to win game 1 and 2. Blake getting injured in practice after game 4 also kind of killed our chances. That was a great chance to get to the WCF and get creamed by SA, which at least perception wise would have made it seem like we were actually being successful, maybe kept Vinny his job (maybe not).

This year we were a 50/50 second round exit, we got the wrong 50.

I think some people are more wildly disappointed (not this year as much as the previous) because they gloss over some of the glaring team building flaws of this team, or hope just playing hard will overcome it. A solid backup big with size, a big the can shoot (consistently) and wing defense has been an issue for some time. 11-12, backup big man was okay, we had no bigs that could shoot, none with size, and Blake's shooting was much worse. Last year, again, no big that could shoot, none with size, and Odom could defend, but offense, well..

This year, Davis was not bad in comparison, but obviously we still haven't gotten another big man with size that is playable. Still lagging on the wing defense. We'll see what happens this off-season, but I'm not totally sold yet, I didn't like the lack of urgency in getting proper bigs this year, and the decision making of signings like Mullens and Jamison. I'm fine with taking reasonable chances that don't pan out. Dudley made sense but didn't work, that happens, even to the best of teams, I'm more skeptical about signings where I have to dig deep to figure out how it isn't terrible.

cleepers
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Good job, mate.

Bash the trolls all you like, but let's keep it civil among ourselves.

clipper*joe
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Yeah, I figured this would come back to me. No problem, I'll choose my words more kindly. Very Happy

clipper*joe
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Cavaliers Expected To Interview Vinny Del Negro

The Cleveland Cavaliers are expected to interview Vinny Del Negro for their head coaching vacancy.

Del Negro has previously been a head coach with the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Clippers. The Clippers parted ways with Del Negro last season after their first round exit.

Via Sam Amick/USA Today

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Del-Negro

jarca
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I thin he's a better fit with the lakers

clipper*joe
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He'd fit better with a younger team to get them over the hump.

CapsNClips
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Vinny is great with young talent. Look how Blake, Rose, Bledsoe and Noah turned out.

The Cavs are gonna have a roster full of young talent.

JQuick32
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None of those players truly developed until they got to play for a far better coach than Vinny.

The Cavs are the dumbest franchise in sports if they hire VDN. They might as well have just saved money and kept Mike Brown. Look for Kyrie and Wiggins/Parker/Embiid to demand out ASAP if Vinny is their hire.

clipper*joe
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Not true at all. VDN coached these guys at their early stages of their careers. Most stars flourish is their 3rd/4th years in the league. Rose and BG were already putting up star numbers under VDN. Noah credited VDN for his improvement when he left. Bledsoe's stock was at an all-time high under VDN. Too bad Doc wanted a Shuttlesworth clone and settled.

Players under VDN were developing under him unless you think those players miraculous fully developed in training camp the following season VDN was canned. lol

CapsNClips
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Rose averaged 20/4/6 in the year before his MVP season where he averaged 25/4/7.7

Those numbers increases would've happened regardless of who was coaching him.

Bledsoe was every bit as good in his last year here than he was last season on PHX. Becoming a starter will produce better stats.

Joakim was averaging a double double in Vinny's last year in Chicago.

I will give you the Blake argument though because Doc really did enhance his game quite a bit, but I still think Blake reached his full potential as a rookie and sophomore.

cleepers
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Personally, I thought Vinny was a perfect fit to replace Doc in Boston. Like Joe and Caps already said, he's great at developing young talent.

ClipperKyle32
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Vinny is a great coach... He just was not the right coach for a Championship. He is great with young talent. He just never had respect from veterans. (See Kenyon Martin not wanting to play....

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laboy
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vinnie let paul run the show ,

he called some plays but it was all paul..

and vinnie did not assemble the team..it was the general manager..

remember vinnie was on the spurs and he learned a lot over there..he is just new to coaching,

he did an ok job..

but we did not have a strong center....if dj was as good then as he is now,...things might have been different..

worm
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Its DJ's fault he is a slow learner.

JQuick32
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He openly admitted that he ran the "Chris Paul offense." That doesn't even qualify as coaching in my book - it's a done-to-death lazy non-strategy utilized by countless incompetent coaches for decades that consistently fails against good teams and in the playoffs.

clipper*joe
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And you coached professionally when? You seem to know what you're talking about, that's why I ask. Plus, how long has it been that Doc got the the finals? Seems like he's also been plagued by consistently failing against good teams since his big three got old.

Disclaimer:

For all those thinking I'm bashing Doc, don't go there. I'm just using the same rationale as he is.

JQuick32
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clipper*joe wrote:
And you coached professionally when? You seem to know what you're talking about, that's why I ask.

Never said I did. I've just watched this league long enough to know that relying on one player to do everything is not a successful formula. Even LeBron couldn't do it on his own, so CP3 certainly wasn't going to be able to.

One-on-five isoball can win regular season games, but team play and systems win championships. Just look at the Spurs. If their strategy was to run the "Tim Duncan offense," they might not have won any championships and they would certainly be in a rebuilding process right now. Instead, Popovich has created an unselfish, team-first culture and that's why they keep winning despite their stars aging.

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Plus, how long has it been that Doc got the the finals? Seems like he's also been plagued by consistently failing against good teams since his big three got old.

Doc has a ring. How long has it been since Vinny got further than the second round? Oh, never? And it took two complete fluke wins for him to barely eke out his only playoff series victory? That's what I thought.

namzug
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Wow, miss a few weeks and Vinny is a subject again. I thought we were past this. Vinny is not a championship coach at this point in his career. All the things we can argue are subjective, even if we actually knew both of them personally. We don't know about what actually goes on behind closed doors. Vinny could actually be great, but doesn't get everyone's ears (I don't think that's the case, but that's my opinion) or he just rides on the basics and depends on the players.

Are we going to start talking about Larry and Dunleavy too. Let's move on.

clipper*joe
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Just a thought:

isn't kinda funny that Doc won his ring in his first year and wasn't able to win another after Thibs left the team? Not saying I credit Thibs but you have to admit, the Celtics won the chip on defense...That's what they were known for. Food for thought...HOMEBOI.

CP3Best
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Doc said it best IMHO, "Winning isn't easy" Our team still has holes, and if you really think that getting a chip is as easy as getting a renown coach like Doc Rivers and THAT'S it... It ain't easy and I still see our team improving, learning the system, getting better pieces, improving from within (DJ's fts). I'm just going to enjoy the ride, cause it is FUN to watch our clippers now, we had game 5 in the bag if anyone remembers. By next year with the system under our belt, I say there is NO WAY anything even REMOTELY close to such an atrocity happens.

namzug
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They were still in the top 5 defensively after Thibs departure.

I would say that just off the vision test we were better defensively. I know we moved down a spot in regards to defensive rating, but still think we were a better team defensively.

clipper*joe
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namzug wrote:
They were still in the top 5 defensively after Thibs departure.

Very true. But he left the blue print.

Quote:
I would say that just off the vision test we were better defensively. I know we moved down a spot in regards to defensive rating, but still think we were a better team defensively.

So it's safe to say the difference in defense was minimal. We can also say we had the best offense which by the way, is Gentry's asset. He's now sought after by teams. Just presenting the other side.

clipper*joe
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I agree but getting the WCF was the next step and we failed. Under the old regime, we got just as far. We had the highest payroll of all time, the highest paid coach in the league, and arguably the best team and we still couldn't get over that minor hump that was very achievable.

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