Chris Paul Performance Discussion (P. 3)

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clipperboy24
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Agreed he is an awesome player that just having him on the team keeps us in playoff contention. Just wondering if we might be able to get a better fit for Blake and another piece as well.

prokreation
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Clipper Fan since 1992. and this is real. 22 years ago, My parents made me transfer high schools and i HATED my new high school and when I first got my car, I went to a Clipper game alone. Bc I identified with the team. Alone. Losers.

We took the Jazz to two Game 5s in the first round and got knocked out. People forget that Danny Manning, Mark Jackson team that almost took the Clippers to the 2nd round which would have changed things.

WORST TEAM FOR DECADES. LAUGHINGSTOCK. I would wear Clipper Shirt and people would laugh in your face. Lakers were winning championships.

2006, Raja Bell, Dunleavy, Daniel Ewing. ONE SHOT away from the Western Conf. Finals. Enough Said.

2009 - Draft Blake.

09-10 - Blake Injured for the entire year.

10 - Blake explodes that year but we still don't make the playoffs.

11 - CP3

12 - Amazing Season - 27 point comeback against Memphis is one of the greatest nights of my life. My friend and I bought a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue and took shots while we kept watching the comeback on TIVO, over and over and over.

13 - Disappointing. Memphis' revenge.

14 - Game 5 was the most painful thing I've ever experienced since 2006. Even more bc we have a better team than 06.

With all that said... Clipper Fans who understand what we've been through since the 90's understand. Chris Paul choked in Game 5, but I will RIDE OR DIE with him and will not stop supporting him. He's the best PG we've ever had and one of the best PG that has ever played the game.

Clippers need to come back better next year.

And for the love of God.... please Sterling... Just GO the F**** Away. PLEASE. If players start leaving bc of this, it will be the worst thing ever.

ClipperKyle32
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I must say Chris was no where near as close to this players after his injury

sz123456
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Only one team can win, that means you got a few guys that are clutch, and the remaining 400 some odd players in the league are chokers that should be traded, at least if I'm following everyone's logic here...

clipper*joe
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here is better question:

Would CP3's legacy be different if he dribbled the ball instead of trying to throw a half-court shot looking for a foul? How about if after the refs blew the call, allow Westbrick to throw up a hero 3pt shot instead of fouling him? CP3 had 2 boneheaded plays that costs us the game. While the refs jobbed us, all we had to do was play some defense and we would have still won the game. It was CP3's stupid foul that nailed it for us when we still had a shot. We need to remember how this started and how it finished. it's easy to fall back on the refs but even then, we still had the lead at that point. All we needed was solid defense, not a 3pt shot foul.

fullcourt
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More excuses and lets blame everyone else lingo.

Ill say this again despite everything that happened Chris Paul was handed a second road win against the Thunder and brain farted it away. Simply holding the ball and taking a foul gets him a chance to win the series on his floor.

You don't have to be lebron or Durant to do that. If we are at the point where we have to bring in someone to win the game for CP and Blake then what good are they and why did we pay them max.

For people to keep trying dismiss that CP brain fart is ridiculous because basketball games at the highest level are won or lost because of those types of mistakes. Its like a RB in football rushing for over a 100 yards and then with the ball and seconds left instead of taking the knee to end the game he tries to get a couple of extra yards but fumbles instead. The other team takes the fumble and scores advancing to the next round and we have people running around talking about its not that big of a deal because look at his rushing yards.

No matter how its spun CP did some STUPID crap on that play and if it was anyone one else they would be torn a new one. I don't see how trying to go for a 3pt play in that situation can be excused EVER no matter who does it .

clipper*joe
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Oh, and before I get accused of wanting CP3 gone, that's not what I'm saying. I am just venting cause I am still not over this. We were seconds away from a closeout game at home.

sz123456
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No player is perfect. Could you imagine if we had Westbrook? How furious we would constantly be for his boneheaded plays. Before winning a championship, Lebron was seen as one of the biggest chokers in the league. He is the best player at his position, who would you rather have? Mario Chalmers? 2-time champion after all Wink

clipper*joe
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I would be furious if we had westbrook but what does that have to do with anything? What does Lebron have to do with CP3? Did he ever try a halfcourt shot to get fouled while leading in the closing seconds? No? I thought so...

sz123456
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Sorry, I thought you read the entire post. "No player is perfect"

clipper*joe
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My bad, I wasn't aware you were working that angle to deflect.

Jerediscool
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I think one of CP's biggest problems is that no matter how good he is, and I do believe he's the best point guard on any given day, the 10th or 15th best pg isn't that far off. The best SG or SF are leagues above the the 5th best or so at their position. PF is probably the second most saturated position. so while we do have the 2 beset at their position, theres a ton of depth at their position through out the league.

toohipcliptoslip
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My point wasn't that we should get Gay at all. The point is that we should consider everything including barbequeing our sacred cow. Is there any player of combination of players who are better than CP alone. That was my point. A barbeque is the only thing a sacred cow is good for.

sz123456
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Actually my angle is that the referees f'ed us over hard night after night starting from game 3. CP3 did have a brain lapse (though arguably still a foul by Westbrook) but no excuse for looking at video and intentionally making the wrong call

toohipcliptoslip
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Agent0, the team that puts the ball in the hoop more wins. Can I quote you? As far as your numbers there is a reason we have four fingers and a thumb. There for me are only five numbers,1, 2, 3, 4, and the thumb - Greater than four. What is 2 x 3? Your thumb. Greater than four. I got a D in math. Very Happy

In business most problems are "Systems Problems". He may be the best PG in the league but is that what our system needs. He at least now isn't a closer. Maybe he was. He choked. Some systems like the triangle don't need PG's. D Fish was a SG. LeBron does not need a PG. We need a closer. CP was supposed to be the best closer in the game but he was right up there with Cassell, Ewing and MDSr. This is a fact.

Would Curry be better for us if we could take the extra cash and get a wing player?. Westbrook with his twelve year old head out of his twelve year old a*s plus a wing player. If BG improves as much this season as last he should be our go to guy. The whole basketball world kept saying that we did better when CP attacked early. This is not an attack but a solution to a systems problem or in other words a personnel problem. Do we have the best doctor on the world when we need a lawyer.

BG/CP are touted as the new Stockton Malone twins. Stockton could step up and shoot lights out. Nash COULD. He was one of the best pure shooters in the game. Would CP have been better with the pre surgery Dwight Howard? Demarcus Cousins after a good spanking? Would we be better off with Curry and a wing player?

bballman
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Chris deserves a lot of the blame,no doubt. There is blame elswhere also. Point is with the bonehead plays he made,if that call went our way,chances are the games is ours. So,yes we would still say Chris messed up, but he still played well enough to at least get us to game 7,possibly WCF.

FightOnRon
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I have actually seen that happen. Not about advancing to rounds, but I have seen a game lost like that. But I am a Raider fan,we see a lot.

I think the NBA did not want us to go further because of the Sterlings, but I think they used our sloppy play just enough to give the edge to OKC. We had game 5 won but 2 incorrect calls by them compiled with sloppy play gave the game away.

We have always as a team had to be better then the refs and we never have had the firepower to do so. We needed fire power coupled with virtually perfect play. We had the first, but not the second on that day.

bballman
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No one is saying CP is perfect. Tha does not mean he should be traded. For all those who feel that way. Chris has made this team a contender. Maybe he has fallen short,but his time here is not over. If he wins one title here and never gets back to the playoffs again,that would be more than any other Clipper has ever done. That would be a great accomplishment for the whole team.

bballman
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Hesl has been here for three seasons and have not missed the playoffs. What other Clipper in history can make that claim?

JQuick32
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sz123456 wrote:
Only one team can win, that means you got a few guys that are clutch, and the remaining 400 some odd players in the league are chokers that should be traded, at least if I'm following everyone's logic here...

Intellectually dishonest argument. There aren't 400 first options on "contenders" in the league. Only a small fraction of those 400 players are the highest paid players on their team or hailed as superstars.

When no-name role players don't get past the second round, nobody cares, because they aren't expected to have a huge impact on winning or losing. In contrast, when you dominate the ball your whole career, get referred to as a "superstar" and the best at your position, and you can't even get past the second round in your career to date, you are a choker. Is that unfair? Maybe, but with big talent and an even bigger paycheck comes great scrutiny and pressure to win when it matters. Other star players have had to deal with that label and some never removed it. What makes CP3 so special that he deserves to avoid the scrutiny despite never winning anything?

bballman wrote:
Hesl has been here for three seasons and have not missed the playoffs. What other Clipper in history can make that claim?

This is the same type of argument that people used to defend Vinny's terrible coaching. Our history is atrocious. It really isn't that hard for anyone with a modicum of talent to outdo the pathetic history of this franchise. If that's really the best thing that can be said about CP3 then he's really not as good as advertised.

bballman
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so you are telling me that you'd rather have Mario Chalmers,George Hill,or even Derek Fisher over Chris Paul right?

Agent0
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I don't really get how this is a response to my post which is talking about his overall performance.

Okay? Cool, when did I say that he didn't make a terrible mistake in game 5? Go back and read the game thread if you want, I was one of the first people to say who cares about the bad calls, all he had to do was hold the ball and our chances to win jump exponentially. What exactly are you responding to? Unless you're implying that Paul is likely to consistently make this mistake, its still just one mistake, as terrible as it is, but certainly doesn't mean we should start thinking the grass is greener if we go get some other player.

..and in the end you still don't seem to get it. We're not in the position to win in any of the games we played without Paul's production and ball protection, so yes, he made mistakes and should be held accountable for it, but that doesn't mean he's not a high level player or can't help a team win, when he clearly was the primary reason the team was in the position to win every single game the whole series.

What exactly are you trying to argue though? That Paul made a terrible play, no duh, of course he did.

Agent0
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Vinny was not a terrible coach, he was a mediocre coach, you need to get off that horse, he really was not a terrible coach.

Agent0
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Well that is true, but sometimes shooting better isn't the only way to do that. You can shoot worse and make it up with turning the ball over less and grabbing more offensive rebounds and therefore getting more chances to shoot. So yes, it is, but whomever shoots better doesn't win. What I was getting at is that they shot better, actually A LOT better, and we were only making up the deficit by not turning the ball over as much.

In terms of who else can we get. If we trade Paul, we don't get Curry, Westbrook, etc. If we trade Paul, we don't get a superstar level player, just so we are all clear.

sz123456
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Instead of chopping CP down, why don't you suggest who we should replace him with?

fullcourt
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You don't have to be perfect but we saw CP trying that same BS for weeks and it did not work one time and he does it on the road in a playoff game. What ref does CP believe makes that call? What if mean NOTHING because no one else would've tried that NO ONE !!! I can't even believe that people don't realize just how DUMB that mistake was. It was one of the DUMBEST MISTAKES EVER in the history of NBA basketball in a playoff game by a road team.

He is the best player at his position and he made one of the dumbest mistakes ever and cost his team a chance to advance. If it was Mario Chalmers or Westbrook they wouldn't be getting the pass that CP is getting for the screw because there is no reasonable justification.

Its not a ill advised shot early ,losing your handle out of bounds ,making an errant pass ,committing a questionable foul, or any of the other thousands of potential mistakes. Its an arrogant mistake in which there is no logical reasoning behind it.

Chris Webber thought he had more timeouts while Chris Paul tried to draw a foul call on a 3/4 court shot for no reason whatsoever. Mad I'm the type of the person that normally says push forward and put it behind us and while I know I am furious now and I will forgive CP and move on by the time camp starts. CP is at the top of my doubt list right now meaning I seriously doubt whether or not he can get this team to where we want to go .

clipperboy24
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Rondo and the celtics true 1st rounder. I think it would be a great fit, works financially too.

toohipcliptoslip
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I was jerking your chain with the ball through the hoop and the math comments All in fun. Your post was good thanks. Twisted Evil .

No we won't get Curry or Westbrook. The point was would they be a better fit? CP3 is"better" but the best for us?

Agent0
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Depends on how we are defining "fit" would we be any better as a team? Not really. Depends where Paul is going. If Paul is now going to OKC for example, not really sure how we would now have any advantage vs Paul/Durant by getting Westbrook, seems like it might be even harder since basically it would be like playing the Thunder this past series but they turn the ball over a lot less and we turn the ball over a lot more, might be a loss in 5 instead, lol.

The argument I could see is contracts. They are on their first contracts after rookie, he's on his second, so they are currently cheaper, but of course on their next contracts, it is the same thing. So the argument I can see is that they could be financially less of a burden for a couple years and that could give flexibility, I haven't checked if it is one of those situations where you are over the cap either way and all it does is keep your further from luxury but doesn't give you real cap space.

sz123456
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Good player, big fan of his defense and court vision. Pretty big surgery he's recovering from though, he's very limited offensively, he almost got in a fist fight not too long ago with Doc, and not sure you want him to be the leader of the team, he seems like kind of an a-hole honestly.

BaadMaster
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Let's get real here. Just about every observer, from Clippers fans to haters, to radio commentators to writers, all agree that this series was the worst officiated series they had ever seen. It is not an excuse when it is the truth. Repeat after me..."It Is Not An Excuse When It Is The Truth."

These were evenly matched teams. All you needed was some ref bias and the outcome is skewed. Period. For whatever reason -- Tony Brothers hugging KD's Mom, the NBA wanting MVP Durant to win, the refs "liking" KD (by all accounts a good guy), the NBA wanting the Sterling thing to disappear for awhile or some other reason -- this series was tilted by the refs. Even in Game Six, when DJ slammed down a thunderous dunk courtesy of Mr. Five Fouls -- the ref did not give us the usual home court deference -- he fouled out Blake and disallowed the basket. So instead of momentum and a minor two point deficit, we were down four and without BG. Not saying we would have won -- but if the correct call was made in Game Five -- we would be watching a Game Seven. Or on to San Antonio.

You cannot blame CP3 for the outcome. You can say he was not good enough to overcome tremendous ref bias. But the game of Playoff basketball is not called, "Overcome Ref Bias and Win."

Chris made mistakes. Westbrook made a lot of turnovers. But regardless, the people to blame are the officials. Period. End of story.

WinningBasket
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Amen! The refs were ultimately to blame.

ClipperRevival
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CP3 isn't going anywhere so if you don't like him, might as well root for another team. We got a good thing going right now. We are this close. All we need is a tweek here and there. Paul will be 30 next year which means he's got 3-4 prime years left. Let's judge him after that time. MJ didn't win a ring until 28. Kobe didn't win a ring as "the man" until he was 31. Paul has a lot of basketball left. If he continues to choke with this great supporting cast for the next few years, then you can say something is wrong. But it's too early to judge him. His career is still in progress. No amount of whining by some of you will make any difference. He is a Clipper so back him and see what he does.

JQuick32
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Kobrick still has yet to win a ring as "the man," Pau, Odom and Bynum carried him.

Agent0
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Well I'm not sure about that one there, lol.

I mean if you are saying that in the end, you need your secondary stars and complimentary and role players to perform and that championship teams can still win games when Kobe goes 6/24, then yes, just like OKC won despite Westbrook's 19/3/12 with 5 turnovers on 4/15 FG in game 6 (11/12 FT though), just like SA can still win games when Parker plays poorly, game 4 vs Dallas or shoots poorly, game 5 vs Dallas, or game 2 vs Memphis last season. That doesn't mean those guys aren't helping to lead / carry the team, it just means your a team that can win despite poor performances and win in more than one way (eg: win through defense as opposed to just offense).

laboy
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vinnie won almost as many games as doc did with a lot less talent..

the the year they beat memphis and this year,the back up guards were playing great...

the only real difference is about 6 million dollars ..

doc got out coached by jackson and the short guy from oklahoma..

what kind of coach blames the officials and not his player for "playing like a 5 year old"? charles barkley's words..

JQuick32
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Doc was a massive upgrade from Vinny. Problem is, at the end of the day, the ball and the majority of our cap space are being hogged by a playoff choker. There's not much a coach can do when the first option isn't a winner in the postseason. Doc had our players moving the ball like the Spurs sometimes and it still wasn't enough because CP3 choked.

BaadMaster
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A coach with eleven rings, that's who. Phil Jackson always criticized the refs, paid his fines and watched as he got a lot fairer officiating after his diatribes.

In Doc's case, he wasn't looking for "an edge," like Jackson. The reffing so biased it was intolerable. "It isn't an excuse if its true." The refs cost us critical possession after critical possession. Doc had to do something. Until his outburst on the game that was stolen from us -- which was true, we was robbed -- he bit his tongue. He was much more restrained than Phil under much more negative officiating.

You try and say nothing when games are being stolen from you.

StrikeBack
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Rivers had to deal with DTS gate and still had OKC bent over game 5, posed to be up 3 vs 2 going home, before the refs got involved. Vinny's team got swept. It's not the same thing at all.

BaadMaster
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Absolutely. There is a clear analogue here. Baseball...

World Series, bottom of the ninth, two outs, down two runs, runners on first and second. Batter hits a long fly ball, clearly a fair ball although close to the foul pole. Umpire calls it foul. Replay shows the ball fair over and over again, from every angle. Batter then strikes out and his team loses. Who cost them the game?

Well if you use the Chris Paul standard some of you use (not all of you, just a few), the batter lost it because he struck out. But I say the umpire, by disallowing the home run, was the culprit. The game was won. Period.

Chris Paul was not the culprit. He might not have had a game like Game One. But, as AgentO here mentioned, Kobe, Parker, KD, Westbrook, most every superstar, have bad games -- by their standards. But if they put their team in a position to win, they are doing what a superstar does. And if the home plate umpire steals a game from them (mixing metaphors), you cannot blame them. Even if it looks like they struck out in the box score the next day. Truth is, they was robbed.

laboy
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we will see how many games oklahoma wins against san antonio

that will destroy your theory,because the spurs are far more superior to the thunder..they have 3 superstars..okie only has one..

toohipcliptoslip
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I did a verbose post about why the Clippers should be favored to win the Wes on a purely financial basis. It has nothing to do with talent. It has to do with marketability. We are by far the most marketable team in the NBA and the best "posterboys." Miami is #2. DWade is no longer the best dressed man in the MBA or the cover boy on GQ only LBJ is a media star. Everybody in the country knows Cliff Paul and Griffin Force. We have great looking uniforms etc etc.

Screwing us makes no sense WHY? I don't get it.

BaadMaster
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If you are talking about my theory, it only works -- as I stated -- between two evenly matched teams. You can ref all day and Sunday too and the T-Wolves will never beat the Clippers.

As a side note, the "parity" David Stern has striven for is fraught with one big danger -- the closer the teams are to parity, the greater the danger of refs deciding the season. It also increases the likelihood of a wonderful (sarcastic LOL) ratings bonanza of Indianapolis vs. OKC. WOW!!!

Which leads back to HipClip's question as to why the NBA isn't favoring Los Angeles and even New York.

I think this is the answer: the League (read Stern) miscalculated and thought the world is so star driven, Kevin Durant alone would beat Los Angeles in the ratings. Thus the transfer of Home Court Ref Advantage into Star Ref Advantage. I think he is wrong.

I guess we will know soon enough if Indy plays San Antonio.

proverbs
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I guess you can be right but I do find it extremely hard to believe that someone could call themselves a Clippers fan and think that he was not the heart and soul of the team -- and even worse, throw hate at him. I have a pretty big circle of buddies that are Clipper fans, and we all easily agree that CP3 is the heart and soul of the team. Yes, Blake will be the #1 guy soon, but CP3 was the leader of the team the past seasons. So far, during the few decades I've been a Clippers fan, drafting Blake and acquiring CP3 were the best things that happened.

proverbs
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No, actually I'll stick by what I said. If you don't know that CP3 was the leader of this team, you're not a real Clippers fan. You blame his for losing the series? How about all the success he brought to the team? You're only recognizing the negative, aren't you? Yes, he is the highest paid player on the Clippers. Do you know how much worse we could've done with that same cash? Do you realize he is the best PG in the NBA?

clipper*joe
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Sure he's the leader of the team and highest paid player. Leaders and highest paid players usually get the brunt of the critique when the team falls short. But guess what? His blunder after the game was won actually deserves the full blame not because of who he is, but because it was HIS mistake. I know what he's done for this team but his mistake negates what good he did cause that mistake cost us big! As far as your hypothetical goes, I don't want to play that cause just as easily we could have done worse in using CP3's money, we could have done better.

dom1
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How did it really cost us big? Everyone assumes if we won game 5 that we were guaranteed to win the series. I don't see how those mistakes cost us the series..It only cost us game 5, nothing after that was ever guaranteed and if you don't believe me ask the Spurs last year after winning game 5 against the heat and they went on to lose the series. Lets stick to the real facts. He cost us game 5 because of a few mistakes but it balances it out to me cause he won us game 1 and tons of other games during his 3 year stint with the Clippers..Answer me this. How many other games has he cost us since he's been here?hmmmm..I'll wait for it smh

Steady818
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Your right his mistake would not have guaranteed that we would win the series but it sure as hell did cost us the series. That itself is enough to place blame on him.

Replace CP3 with Bledsoe or Darren Collison and we are still a playoff team, Real leaders and superstars win games to take you past the 2nd round of the playoffs, it doesn't matter what they do during the regular season or in 1 game of the playoffs. They get it done consistently and that is something CP3 just has trouble doing. So tell me what exactly has Paul done besides make us an early playoff exit that is worth talking about. I say absolutely nothing.

Do i think he is a superstar? Yes.. Do i think he is done anything special for us? No..

clipper*joe
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It cost us game 5 and cost us a close out game at home. A closeout game at home! I'm not saying we could have won the series but it gave us a 2 game opportunity that I felt we could do in that time. Hell, I felt we could close them out at home. That isn't fact but to me, that was the death blow to the Thunder. Instead, CP3 took the Clippers and himself out of it in that one play.

Hell, I said this before:

I would have been happy just making it to the WCF. I wouldn't have cared if we got swept. I just wanted the Clippers and CP3 to make it out of the second round. That was all the improvement I would have settled for and been happy. That's why I am still furious about this. I think that play will haunt and effect CP3 going forward. It was like a self-sabotage.

CP3Best
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He'll get over it, and by the way we played evenly vs. OKC, I'm confident we WILL make it to WCF next year.

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