Kevin Love Sweepstakes Thread

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ClipsGForce
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Unfortunately, Clippers would not be able to acquire Kevin Love. However, Kevin Love can tilt the axis to either the West or the East. Let's the debate begins on where will Kevin Love be landed.

I'll start, I can see Kevin Love going to either Golden State Warriors or the Houston Rockets. Both team have the necessary pieces to acquire Kevin Love, it's the matter of salary matching and who's in and out.

For Golden State, they can ship off Klay Thompson, David Lee, Harrison Barnes and a future first round pick to get K Love, but that's losing a lot of depth for GSW. If they manage to acquire Kevin Love and keep Klay Thompson, watch out for the big 3 in Curry, Thompson, and Love. Scary!

For Houston Rockets, I can see them package in Jeremy Lin, Chandler Parsons, a first round pick, and Terrance Jones, but that's depend on how much faith does the TimberWolves on Jeremy Lin. With this trade, the pieces will be there for Wolves to compete, but does it make sense long term wise? If K. Love goes to the Rocket, the Rockets have themselves the big 3 in Harden, Love, and Howard. Love is their ideal 4 and it can really spread the floor. They can always acquire a pass first point guard with low TO's and a defender on the 3's. That team would look beastly.

Sorry Lakers fans, you don't have anything to offer beside their "brand".

What do you guys think?

david
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I think you are right about Houston and Golden State being prime landing spots for him. I think the Lakers are still a possibility, but a third team would likely need to be involved. There is also talk of him going to the Celtics as well.

ClippersDA
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How is it that golden state makes a splash every summer and we can't

JQuick32
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They haven't made any splashes at all. They cleared space for Dwight last summer, but had to settle for Iguodala, who isn't even a natural fit and ended up ruining Harrison Barnes' confidence in the process. Now they want to ruin what was one of the best defensive teams in the league last year by adding Kevin "I Always Get Into Rebounding Position Instead of Contesting Shots" Love.

CapsNClips
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Just last summer we got Doc Rivers and two years before that we got Chris Paul. So far we're 2 for 3 and are in the mix for the two top FA's this summer.

Spoiled much?

ClipsGForce
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Obviously you weren't here that long. We did make a splash last couple of years.

2011 - Chris Paul

2013- Doc Rivers

That's pretty a big splash myself.

ClipsGForce
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I would think GSW would be an idiot to trade all their asset for Kevin Love. Like I say at my original post, if they manage to trade anyone beside Curry and Klay, they'll be a top threat.

Griffinforpresident
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Trade the guy already!!!

Too much talking....

CapsNClips
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It would be nice if we can get in on this trade and get either Corey Brewer or Chase Budinger.

Scplum
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I'm surprised, I didn't think they would include Andrew Wiggins! If that's true Minnesota needs to jump on that deal and Bennett looked much better in summer league.

tense2
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Think Cleveland is down playing the idea they wouldn't include Wiggins in a trade for Love. Take the known talent (a top Player) for potential anytime.

JQuick32
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CapsNClips wrote:

It would be nice if we can get in on this trade and get either Corey Brewer or Chase Budinger.

Big mistake on Cleveland's part. Trading away Wiggins' potential for an overrated no-defense career loser like Love will come back to haunt them. They aren't ringing this year with or without Love anyway, so why make a panic move like this?

CapsNClips
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I think it's a terrible deal for the Cavs. They desperatly need another wing defender to help hide Kyrie on defense.

Even if it was Wiggins for Love straight up, I'd be very hesitant. Wiggins is gonna be a baller.

itsLuigi
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i kind of hope golden state trades for love and ends up losing klay. that would make getting to the finals a little easier for us.

CapsNClips
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How is Wiggins not a known talent?

Any GM who would trade Wiggins and his 5 year rookie contract for an atrocious defender who's never made the playoffs and is looking for a Max contract should be fired.

So I totally expect this trade to go down.

What if the Lakers kept Vlade instead of trading for the "potential" player Kobe Bryant.

Kevin Love is reportedly a cancer in the locker room. This trade would be such a Cavs things to do.

JQuick32
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This is why LeBron going back to Cleveland was such a mistake basketball-wise. That front office hasn't improved one bit since he left and they're already making stupid moves to ruin his chances of winning another ring. He really should have forced a sign-and-trade to the Clippers instead.

CapsNClips
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Irving, Waiters and Love on Defense?? That would be hilarious.

LeBron is the best wing defender in the league, but even the King can't help that atrocity of a defensive lineup.

Dunkathon
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Miami already said they weren't going to do any sign and trades. Judging from what we know, I think Pat Riley was perfectly comfortable letting Lebron leave for nothing.

Agent0
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Caps, Wiggins has yet to play an NBA game or perform at a high level in the NBA. I'd take "known" in this context to mean "proven". Wiggins is the definition of unproven in this context if there was one, and Love is certainly a proven NBA player whether one likes him or not.

I don't get the Kobe and Divac comparison. Divac was a 27 year old 13/9/3/2 player on a team with a 27 year old 14/8/2/3 Elden Campbell, how are you comparing Divac and Kevin Love here though? Seems like a bit of a stretch don't you think?


In our conclusions of Love, what are the facts here outside of "well his team didn't make the playoffs"? Why didn't they make the playoffs? Was it because of his play or in spite or it? What comparable PF would have made the playoffs in his situation? It's weird having to defend the guy, but I mean we have to be accurate and fair in criticism.

Seems like a lot of hyperbole in talking about Love. Is Love a below average floor defender, yes, but his rebounding actually does help the defense a lot. Is Love lost on defensive schemes or rotations? No, actually he's pretty decent in rotating, his biggest problems come in contesting shots everywhere, his hands are down too much and he does not contest shots. He's already bad enough in terms of length and athletic ability at the rim, but too much hands down is a problem for him. Outside of that he's actually not "atrocious" at any other aspect of defense. I know, crazy isn't it.

Is he a "stat padder" on offense? Well what is a stat padder? Are you a stat padder if you perform efficiently and at a high level and your team loses? Well that definition would obviously fail on many levels if we actually applied it generally, so we obviously can't run with that unless it is just a selective definition when we don't like the player. Stat padding can't be putting up numbers and having your TEAM lose unless we want to call a guy like KG a stat padder for most of his career. Being more accurate it should be when your numbers are not positive to winning or in contrast to winning. There's just no factual argument, either from numbers, film, anything that will gives that conclusion about Love. NBA has video of plays, you can go try and scout it: http://stats.nba.com/playerGameLogs.html#PlayerID=201567&pageNo=1&rows PerPage=25 . He is his offense from last season:

, there's a part 2, again, scout it. Love averaged 4.4 APG, Love had a 59.1% TS, Love had a 120 Ortg, Love was 4th in the league in offensive RAPM:

Offensive RAPM 13-14:

1) Lebron James +6.2 2) Manu Ginobili +4.4 3) James Harden +4.3 4) Kevin Love +4.1 5) Chris Paul +4.0 6) Stephen Curry +3.9 7) Kevin Durant +3.5 8) Channing Frye +3.5 9) Damian Lillard +3.2 10) Dirk Nowitzki +2.9

This isn't a rank of "better" offensive player or anything like that. Most people like to just look at stats and think it is just a ranking. What this can do is give us an idea of level of offensive impact after adjusting for teammates and opponents, and also gives us an idea of the ranges these players rank. So all these guys will be considered high level offensive players in terms of impact, a 0.1 or whatever difference means nothing (Blake is in the top 15 btw).

If we look, we can kind of figure out why those players are all in the top (maybe some people won't get Frye, but Frye was a huge reason why Phoenix's offense was so potent because he opened up the paint for Bledsoe and Dragic as a high volume and high efficiency 3PT shooting big man). Their offense last season couldn't work as well based on the skills of their PG's without a big man spacing the floor like that. We can either try and explain away Love being in the top, or acknowledge the obvious that he was and is a high impact offensive player, it's not really hidden, the basic stats say so, the advanced stats say to, the +/- says to, the adjusted +/- says to, watching the games says so

People mention Love not making the playoffs "his whole career", oooohh, big deal right? Well, is it? First of all, his first two seasons he was a complimentary player, so the team not making the playoffs really means little in the evaluation of him as a player right now. Second, he played 18/82 games in 12-13, so if you're going to start criticizing him for not making the playoffs while playing less than 25% of the season, then that's just not reasonable.

So now we're down to three seasons of not making the playoffs that are actually relevant to the "star" level Kevin Love.

10-11: I mean let's just look at the roster. Darko Milicic starting C, Luke Ridnour starting PG, Wesley Johnson starting SG and Michael Beasley starting SF. There's actually nothing Love could have done individually to make that team win more than 23 games or so.

11-12: First ask yourself if that was a playoff roster. If you answer is yes, continue with criticism, if your answer is no, then maybe reconsider. Here were the top 10 minute getters in order outside of Love: Luke Ridnour. Can we just stop at Luke Ridnour getting the second most minutes on a team? Wesley Johnson. Okay, so now we have Ridnour and Johnson as the 2nd and 3rd highest minute getters. 4th, Derick Williams. Honestly there's no point going on.

They won the equivalent of 32 games. You know a team that also had a similar winning percentage? The 10-11 Clippers with out 23/12/4 rookie Blake. Our top minute guys outside of Blake: Eric Gordon, okay, doing well. Ryan Gomes, well at least we know part of the reason, DeAndre Jordan, still good, rookie Bledsoe, he had a lot of offense issues still, Mo Williams + Baron. Definitely shouldn't have made the playoffs, but if that team won 32 games, then what did we expect from Luke Ridnour, Wesley Johnson and rookie Derick Williams?

So the only team Love has had which had any sort of chance of making the playoffs, the 13-14 Timberwolves. So what happened? The general consensus is 1) Late game offense and 2) Late game defense 3) Poor bench production. Let's examine those first two things.

1) There are few teams in the NBA who rely on their big men to create in close game situations. That doesn't mean they won't rely on them to still score, but teams generally look to have a guard or small forward that can score out of isolation or create for others to facilitate those situations. The Timberwolves starting 1-3 was Rubio an awful scorer, Martin who doesn't create, and well, Corey Brewer. The teams best on ball perimeter shot creator was J.J. Barea. That really speaks for itself.

2) If you can't score as well down the stretch, it helps to play high level defense and be able to limit the opponent scoring so much that even your weak offense becomes adequate enough to pull out victories. The Wolves kind of figured out this idea that if you pair up a non-athletic PF who doesn't have length and isn't a defensive anchor with a slow footed offensive big man who is not athletic and is not a rim protector / shot blocker, you could facilitate a high level defense.

We like the FG% given up at the rim. Let's compare Pekovic to the big men next to other non lengthy or just vertically unathletic (Randolph) PF's: Pekovic: 55.2% M.Gasol: 50.8% D.Jordan: 49.1% D.Howard: 47.8% Garnett: 47.4% Noah: 46.8% Bogut: 45.0%

Yes it is nice to have a PF that can be a rim protector, but most of these PF's are giving up 53.5%+ FG at the rim. Pekovic is just way below, look at the drastic difference between him and Bogut, 10% is crazy. Offensively, really I'm not going to get on a PF who doesn't have a competent shot creating perimeter player about late game offense. Defensively Love could help, but that's why a lot of us are always mentioning complimentary players. It isn't always about getting / having the most individually talented players, it is also important to have players who compliment each other, who mask each other's weaknesses, etc. The Wolves roster forgot that part. The team wins a lot more games if they have a defensive C and a shot creating guard off the bench. The were 0-10 in close games after 35 games (17-18), going 5-5 in those games and they would have been 22-13 half way through the season, 52 win pace. Give them only 4-6 even, still 21-14 isn't bad.

I'm not sure I can take all that complete data and say "well Love is an atrocious defender and imply he is this sort of low impact player, just doesn't seem to fit.


Then if you have a smart GM, if I'm trading for Love, why would I keep Waiters? You have three high level scorers in Lebron, Love and Irving, what does Waiters really do for you? You trade him for a C or SG whose main calling card is defense.

CapsNClips
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Repped High Quality Post

Agent0,

1.) If you don't like the Lakers analogy, think of it this way. What if the Hornets decided not to trade for the "proven" Vlade Divac and kept the "unproven" Kobe Bryant instead? Playing it safe is the best way to be replaced in the front office. What if Spurs never traded "proven" George Hill for "unproven" Kawhi Leonard. I can tell you that the Spurs would have one less championship and one less EOTY award on their shelves.

2.) While K Love isn't bad at all at switching onto an opponent, that was never the problem. It's what he does after he's on that player. Most of the time when a player is switched onto Love the decide to go for the pull up because Love will not contest the jumps hot and instead head right towards the rim for a rebound. He also can't stay with the player if they decide not to take advantage of his lack of shot contesting and go to the rim because he doesn't have the shot blocking ability to contest a layup or dunk. Basically all that switching is for nothing if he decides not to do anything with the switch (usually his course of action). That's like being the greatest off the ball offensive player, but deciding to pass on a wise open 3 every time. It's pointless.

3.) Let's talk about his offense. Not once did I mention K Love would be an inferior offensive player to Wiggins, nor did I even mention his offense at all. But with Kyrie, Waiters, LeBron, Bennett, Verajao, Miller, Jones, and possibly Allen they won't need anymore offense, and Wiggins isn't going to be a scrub on offense also if I'm aloud to speculate on him. Defense will be their Achilles heal. Kyrie is arguable the worst defensive starting PG in the league, which will result in a lot if collapses on defense. If that scenario were to take place I'd much rather have Wiggins on my team to pick up the offensive player as opposed to hoping Kevin Love can protect the paint which he can't....at all.

4.) Now onto Love's playoff appearances (or lack thereof). Sure, he's had some terrible teams in his career, but let's look at last years team. They had Ricky Rubio, Kevin Martin, Corey Brewer, Pekovic, Budinger, Barea, Cunningham...etc and Coach Rick Adelman. That team on paper should've been better than last years PHX team and should've been contending for the 7th and 8th seed, especially if Love is as good as everyone says he is. They won 40 games. BG won 32 games in his rookie season with an injured Gordon. Let's add 5 years of experience to his game and I'm pretty sure he would've eclipsed 40 wins awhile ago.

5.) Now onto THE MOST crucial part. Kevin Love is getting paid $14mil next season and will be looking for Max contract. Wiggins will be getting $5mil a year for the next 5 years. That means once Love gets his extension, Wiggins will be getting paid 1/4th of Kevin Love. That creates a ton more room for quality pieces to add. Kevin Love like I mentioned before is a cancer in the locker room and has already gotten into fights with Barea. Rubio has even mentioned how he's not a winner and how he's quick to point the finger. That's not gonna go over well when the Cavs already have 2 immature babies on their team in Dion and Irving.

Wiggins will always be the right choice.

tense2
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Because he hasn't played in one fricken meaningful game in the NBA yet, lol. Potential, that's all he is at this point, just potential.

Kevin Love all star, one of the top players in the league, not without some weakness as is every pro player...proven in the NBA.

Any GM not thinking of making that trade should be fired.

CapsNClips
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I guess we can play the safe game. We can say it's not a fact that Wiggins will be great. We should've said LeBron isn't a franchise player coming out of high school. We should've said Dwight Howard's was too raw to predict him as a future elite Center.

Playing it safe is the absolute best way to win an argument in the present time, so I guess you win this one.

If all a GM had to do was pick out who's the best player currently, we'd all be top level GM's. Sadly for us it takes a lot more than just picking the obvious player to get a job in the front office.

If anybody who's watched Wiggins in high school, Nike Hoop Summit, College and Summer League says Wiggins is unproven is just playing it safe...again, that person wins the argument, but he loses in the long run.

TheThinkingSomething
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Knockin' em down today lol

tense2
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There have been a sh!t load of supposed can't miss number 1 picks in the NBA. Look it up you'll be amazed.

You've just cherry picked out the very successful and future HOF's for your example. The exception to the rule.

I'd absolutely play this "safe" as you call it, when a player of Love's proven abilities becomes available via trade. Bird in the hand is worth... wink

We'll see who wins this so-called argument in the near future.

P.S. Lebron's talents/potential coming out of high school were and are a arms length at least better then Wiggins IMO.

CapsNClips
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I don't think Wiggins is going to be great because he was taken #1, I think he's going to be great because I've seen what he can do at every level so far.

Wiggins can't be compared to LeBron because there will never be an under 18 year old player as good as LeBron was, but Wiggins is good enough right now to compare him to Paul George.

I'd take a team with LeBron and George over a team with LeBron and Love any day, and that not taking into account $$, bad locker room presence and Love's injury history.

tense2
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In the end, it just a guessing game on how good Wiggins will end up being. As good as Paul George?? Maybe maybe not.

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