2014 NBA Finals Thread - Heat Vs Spurs (P. 2)

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JQuick32
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Uhhh..., I think I said Wade isn't in his prime anymore. His injuries started 2 seasons ago. He doesn't have lift anymore and is a lot slower now. That's why he got a shooting coach to preserve his body.
No excuses. Wade took most of the regular season off while LeBron was getting run into the ground just so he'd be ready for the postseason. He's now crashing and burning in the Finals despite his "maintenance program." He is culprit #1 for the Heat's loss, Spoelstra is #2 for taking a huge step backwards as a coach this series,....

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clipper*joe
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Or when Jackson got there. But make no mistake, it took Jordan to mature right about the same time Pippen got there. Pippen was not the game changer. It was also Larry Hughes who was LBJ's sidekick in the finals, not Mo Williams. Lebron also had Boozer at one point so it's not like LeBron never had talent.

ClipTakeover
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The Patty Mills idea is starting to look like a great idea. Great energy and superb 3-point shooter.

clipper*joe
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Mills looks good with the Spurs but I am tired of undersized guards who can shoot. We need more than that.

jarca
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All championship team is/was a super team. He made the right move moving to Miami since Cleveland's front office is the most incompetent in the league. Look what they've done after Lebron left

JQuick32
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clipper*joe wrote:
Pippen was not the game changer.

LOL, yeah, one of the best perimeter defenders in league history wasn't "the game changer." Funny how Jordan's career win/loss record dips to 182-228 - BELOW .500 - without that "non-factor" Pippen in the lineup. roll

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It was also Larry Hughes who was LBJ's sidekick in the finals, not Mo Williams.

Wow, what an upgrade from Mo! roll

JQuick32
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Revisionist history. LeBron had Boozer for his rookie year only, and then Boozer immediately bolted for Utah. Plus, one year of Boozer is nothing compared to spending the majority of your career with Pippen, Grant, Rodman, etc.

jarca
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Larry Hughes, mo Williams, Big Z, booby Gibson, how did Lebron lose with those hall of famers in his team

Dunkathon
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That's a NBA Finals record by Duncan. Most Double doubles in the playoffs EVER.

jarca
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Lebron also had the great Ricky Davis in Cleveland. He was a beast

jarca
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Lakers fans can't claim that Kobe is the most winningest player in the era

JQuick32
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Duncan has always been wayyyyy better than Kobrick, not even close, but this just cements it.

As much as I feel bad for LeBron being stuck on that **** team, I've also always been a fan of Duncan and I'm happy to see him get #5.

clipper*joe
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I don't believe that for a second. A super team IMO, is manufacturing a team by conspiring to get 3 of the top 10 best players in the league. It's like creating a super group with 4 of the best musicians from 4 different bands. Teams have never been created the way the Heat were created. That was unheard of until they did that. That's why the CBA made changes.

JQuick32
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LOL, awfully convenient definition there. roll

Who "conspired"? Last I checked, it took years of painstaking cap management from Riley to put together this Heat team. If good GM'ing is a crime then every championship ever is invalid.

clipper*joe
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The Pistons won a title with no stars and probably no HOF's. if those guys did it, why can't the "king" rule his own kingdom? lol

JQuick32
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The 2004 Pistons are an extreme outlier in NBA history for a reason. Even then, Ben Wallace had a superstar-like impact on the defensive end back then.

clipper*joe
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Oh, Naive one. The big three had already planned to play together during the Olympics. I'm sure Riley knew way before it happened. "The Decision" was already made long before LeBronze made a spectacle of himself on ESPN.

JQuick32
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Funny how the NBA found zero proof of collusion and how all three of the "Big Three" strongly considered other teams during their free agency.

clipper*joe
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Yet none of that team will see any player in HOF. Hell, they didn't have anyone close to the "king" on that team but they did have a Prince.

Thank you! I'll be here all week. lol lmao

clipper*joe
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Google. the players made mention of it. it's not against the CBA to collude amongst players.

jarca
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I knew you will mention that but all five of their starters were all stars and in their prime. Let's not forget they had Okur coming off the bench. Insert Lebron with that piston team and they'll win titles.

JQuick32
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clipper*joe wrote:
Yet none of that team will see any player in HOF.

Chauncey and both Wallaces will be HOF'ers, especially since the HOF has such low standards.

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Thank you! I'll be here all week. lol lmao

Unfortunately.

Dunkathon
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I'm thinking either Duncan or Kawhi gets the Finals MVP, assuming the Spurs don't suffer an absolutely epic collapse. TBH, if it goes to Duncan, it will be more of a career recognition award than anything he actually did in these Finals.

JQuick32
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I'm fine with that, it'd make up for 2007 when Parker got handed Finals MVP for padding stats against Cleveland's scrub PG rotation when Duncan was the one who carried them there.

toohipcliptoslip
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Back to the Clippers. The Spurs have a coach who rules. He could bench Duncan if he chose. He has guys of high character who are unselfish unlike Kobe. The guys believe in the system. They don't have a "Big Three" they have a team. THEY HAVE PLAYED TOGETHER FOR A LONG TIME. They don't rely on athleticism, read Lob City. Multiple guys can contribute, read Small Forward.

We have the coach and the Point Guard if he doesn't get hurt. Blake has to have a jumper Period. DJ has to be able to score or at least draw fouls on the pick and roll. He needs to learn to pass (if he can). W can't have Jamal bail us out when we have a broken play. If he still has the juice he needs to be Ginnobliesque. We lack a lot.

ClipperRevival
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Watching the Spurs play, it took me back to game 5 against OKC, when we had a 13 point lead with minutes to go and we just ended up trying to milk the clock and started playing iso ball instead of doing what got us the lead, which is team basketball. A Pop led team would've never done that. And that's what worries me about this team sometimes. Too much iso ball with CP3 and Jamal sometimes. Our offense can resemble the Spurs in stretches when the ball is moving but sometimes we do get way too iso dependent. And that's an issue.

ClipperPostman
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4 Pistons from that team went to the All-star game that year and their coach

was the coach of the All-star game.

That's a horrible example.

clipboard
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The way the Spurs mounted Miami allows little doubt Miami is in Heat.

Agent0
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Yea, the Detroit team is not a good example. Part of why they were able to have such a team is because they signed a lot of guys like Billups, Chauncey and RIP while they were either under the radar or not yet developed. They had Okur with 16/10/1.4 blks and an 18.3 PER off the bench, all their guys were above average to very good two way players (Ben was a one way player).

You can't build that team today unless you get guys while they are underrated. If we're thinking this season, that team would look something like:

PG: Kyle Lowry or Goran Dragic (Billups)

SG: Wesley Matthews or Klay Thompson (Hamilton)

SF: Andrei Kirilenko or Maurice Harkless (Tayshaun)

PF: Serge Ibaka or David West (Rasheed)

C: Andrew Bogut (Big Ben)

Bench:

Channing Frye (Okur)

11-12 Al Harrington (Williamson)

Toney Douglas (Mike James)

Earl Watson or Derek Fisher (Lindsey Hunter)

Coach:

Tom Thibodeau

You can't mimick it exactly. I know Ibaka can't score like Rasheed, Davis West is more accurate, but West can't block shots like Sheed, maybe either one works, maybe you could say Taj Gibson. Either way, you had two big men each averaging 2 BPG in the two Wallace's. An All-Star caliber PG. A good all-round SG in Hamilton, a long defensive guy in Prince, Okur and Williamson off the bench to score, and also tough guard defenders in Hunter and James. Yes I know Fisher doesn't fit, but it's not an exact replica, just an idea of what it would look like.

keephopealive
Clipper 6th Man
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Yes a pop led team would never do that, also a pop led team would never give up a 5 point lead with :20 left to win a title.....oh wait.

BaadMaster
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After watching ALL Finals games, I hope the "Trade CP3 after a bad game" crew on CTB sees that EVERY superstar has a bad game. In fact, quite often.

Dunkathon
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Yeah, and Pop's team kept on running their system and playing team basketball. It just didn't work out for them.

Meanwhile, the Clippers play not to lose instead of playing to win.

JQuick32
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The difference is, other stars have bad games in the Finals. CP3 has bad games in the second round and never goes any further!

ClipperKyle32
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So if the Chris Paul had that Game 5 type game in the Finals and not the Western Conference Semis you'd be fine with it? Like I said, stars can only carry so much. Chris had....

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clipper*joe
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Cause and effect. How is that not a good example. lol

They had a team with no superstars and went to the finals and won. One can surmise that they became all-stars after having the best record in the East. Think about it...Think.

Also, I am pretty sure there was only 3 all-stars, not 4. I'm pretty certain Prince was left out. I remember an interview with all 4 where that subject came up.

ClipperKyle32
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LeBron looks nothing compared to this. In February he was getting high and dunking. I honestly think he is tired and worn out. Wade gets a bunch of excuses. LeBron had to carry this team....

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CP3Heliflopter
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The difference between the Spurs and teams like the Heat and Clippers is that they do not rely on one or two players to win. The Heat rely too much on Lebron. The Clips rely too much on CP3 and Blake.

The Spurs have Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Parker, Manu, Bellineli, Diaw, Green, Splitter, Mills and a few other solid role players.

That Is at least nine capable players and most of them are good defenders too. You can have one or two defensive liabilities like Parker if you can compensate it with good defenders.

Timmy is still an elite defensive anchor, Kawhi is underrated and one of the best defenders in the league, the rest of the players are at least average defensively if not better. Not to mention they have a great system on both ends of the floor.

I don't know any other team that has 9 capable players. We have 7 maybe 8 but three of them are defensive liabilities and our best defender might actually be a 5'11 PG which is downright sad.

BaadMaster
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If he (LeBron) says to himself, you know I want to win, I want some youth around me, i want to play for an outstanding coach in Doc, and I want to win without carrying the entire load, I think I'll take the MLE or whatever we can offer him to play for the Clips with Doc, CP3 and Blake, in LA. I think JQuick would agree.

LeBron better get some help in Miami because the rest of his "help" has gone MIA. I think he will heavily consider Cleveland or the Clippers this off season if the NBA season ends tonight

Of course this assumes the DTS stuff is settled by Free Agency time. If it is, this could happen. If he does join his pal CP3, The King would def get another 3 -5 rings. Even if he"only" gets four more chips, GOAT is within his reach.

That would be sweet. (As much as I hate Mr. Mount Rushmore, I could live with this "ultimate super team.")

This just gets betterer and betterer!!!

Agent0
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Only Ben made the All-Star team in 03-04. The All-Stars were Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed and Ben, but they were all All-Stars in 05-06, not 03-04. The All-Star label in itself isn't that important as I think we know that All-Star caliber players don't make the All-Star team many times. I'm hoping no one thought Mo Williams in 08-09 or whenever was a higher caliber player than Stephen Curry last season because one made the All-Star team and one didn't.

Prince was not an All-Star caliber player, just a high level role player.

To be exact though, after the late season trade for Rasheed, without giving up much (Rebrace, Sura and a 1st), most people considered the Pistons to be the favorite to come out of the East. They weren't given as much of a chance (depends on where you lived) vs the Lakers but people also didn't expect the Kobe chuck show. Think of them as similar to the 99-00 Blazers who also had no superstar and won 59 games and went to 7 vs the Lakers in the WCF. They also only had one player make the All-Star team and it was Rasheed.

Yes, getting a superstar or more is an easier way to build, but it isn't the only way. Also people talk about superstars because many times they are the guys that can create and score for you down the stretch, but obviously they aren't the only guys. Both Rip and Billups (a lot of foul drawing) were players you could run things for to get late game baskets, so Detroit had all the angles covered.

Now, if they had a superstar that fit their team, with that defense, they could have been a multiple championship team even with the Shaq and Wade combo hitting the East.

The difficulty in getting multiple All-Stars is that most All-Stars get paid almost as much as superstars, so you just don't get the value in comparison. Paying an All-Star $12M vs a superstar $16M just isn't worth it for most teams if you have the option of one or the other. Detroit had a pretty perfect storm because they signed Billups, Hamilton and Ben to contracts when they were all under-looked, here were the contracts of their top players in 04-05:

Rasheed - $9.7M

Hamilton - $7.8M

Wallace - $7.0M

Billups - $5.5M

Okur - $1.1M

Prince - $971K

Before they traded for Rasheed, Bob Sura was the next highest paid player after Hamilton's $7.8M. Fast forward to 07-08 when contracts expire and new ones are made:

Rasheed - $12.5M

Billups (31 yrs) - $10M

Hamilton - $10M

Prince - $8.7M

Let Ben Wallace go

The Raptors could be a good example. If Tim Duncan was magically disgruntled and the Raptors traded Landry Fields, the contract of Marcus Camby and a 1st round pick for him. Also they'd been coached by Tom Thibodeau all season. They roll out a lineup of:

Kyle Lowry

DeMar DeRozan

Terrence Ross

Tim Duncan

Jonas Valanciunas

Bench: Amir Johnson, Patrick Patterson, Greivis Vasquez

There's no one playing at a superstar level on that team, but that team could be in the finals...but again, good luck getting 4 All-Star players all making <$10M, actually two basically making the MLE. Kyle Lowry was at a bargain this year for his production ($6.2M), but most likely he gets re-signed and now he's making $9-10M. Ben Wallace would make the same amount as guys like DJ and Bogut, so double his contract. Even Rasheed at $9.7M would be paid more now, he's a guy who would be getting about $15-16M. Then you have to sign all those players before you have any other contracts on your roster so that you're under the cap and actually have room.

Agent0
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You do realize that this doesn't even mean anything right? Lol, the stuff you say sometimes. Compare him to players at his position who are considered at the top themselves.

You know what Parker averaged vs OKC:

13.2 PPG / 2.2 RPG / 4.8 APG / 2.7 TPG / .515 TS% / 99 Ortg

Game 3: 9/1/4/4 tov - L

Game 4: 14/1/4/4 tov - L

Game 5: 12/4/4/2 tov (13 FGA) - W

Game 6 he plays 18 minutes because of injury, had 8/2/0/2 tov and Spurs win by 5. I mean he basically was "good" in game 1 and 2, bad in game 3 and 4, game 5 they won by 28, but he didn't do anything special individually, and game 6 they basically won without him. You know what he averaged when SA beat us in 11-12? Well then how in the world is his team winning games and series' if he isn't always killing it? Must be a mystery.

Curry shot <35% FG in 3/6 games vs SA last season, <40% in 4/6. After droping 44 pts in game 1 he averaged 18.2 PPG / 3.2 RPG / 6.0 APG / 2.8 TPG / 36.3% FG / 32.5% 3PT / .466 TS% / 96 Ortg over the last 5 games of the series. vs Memphis, Westbrook averaged 4.9 TPG and had a .479 TS%. Durant had 15 pts on 5/21 FG in game 4 vs Memphis and they pulled off a 3 pt win. The next game he had 26 pts and 6 turnovers on 24 FGA in a 1 pt loss. In game 3 he had 30 pts on 27 FGA, 0/8 3PT and 5 turnovers (it's okay for 49 minutes though). In game 6 vs SA he coughed the ball up 7 times.

Again, this is why teams win, and they do it on both ends. The best teams overcome poor shooting, tons of turnovers, bad mistakes, whatever you can think of by their star players and find ways to win, that's what makes them the better teams. Teams that can't win unless their stars play excellent games are actually just proving that they aren't great teams. This doesn't mean that you don't hold you star players accountable to play well overall, but if you think they can't have bad games no matter what round, you're in for a surprise. If you can't win unless they dominate a game, then you're just a star dependent team and generally it means you also can't win with defense.

CP3Heliflopter
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LeBron looks nothing compared to this. In February he was getting high and dunking. I honestly think he is tired and worn out. Wade gets a bunch of excuses. LeBron had to carry this team all , but one game.

I could not see Blake and Bron on the same team , but if LeBron wants to take the MLE lol to play with Chris and Blake then so be it. LeBron just got about 30 mil from that Beats By Dre sale so that covers his salary for the 14-15 season. If he says to himself, you know I want to win, I want some youth around me, i want to play for an outstanding coach in Doc, and I want to win without carrying the entire load, I think I'll take the MLE or whatever we can offer him to play for the Clips with Doc, CP3 and Blake, in LA. I think JQuick would agree.

LeBron better get some help in Miami because the rest of his "help" has gone MIA. I think he will heavily consider Cleveland or the Clippers this offseason if the NBA season ends tonight

This is not the first time Lebron has looked fatigued in the playoffs. This is what happens when you play more minutes than anyone else in the league besides maybe Durant who is younger and has far less mileage(RS +PS combined). Sure he coasted a bit in RS but remember he still plays more minutes total than anyone else since his team always makes it to the Finals.

In the playoffs he has to anchor the offense and defense. The amount of burden he has is unbelievable and he has had to do this every season of his career.

clipper*joe
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Different CBA's, different times. I don't think you can compare Lowery or DJ today to what those guys were making.

Aside from those comparisons, my point still stands. Wallace and Billups were very good players but I don't think they're players that pop into one's mind when you consider how much of an impact they made in the league. None of the Pistons players at that time will, IMO, be part of the hall of a fame. Billups never fit anywhere till he got to the Pistons. Wallace was considered a troubled player. Rip was a very good role player along with prince, and the other Wallace. That team fit well together for a few years til it didn't. But you do make my point, having a superstar/superstars level players isn't the only way to get chip.

clipper*joe
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If you remember, Wallace's stock wasn't high when he was traded from the Blazers to Hawks, and then quickly turned around and given to the Pistons after playing one game with the Hawks. Billups was branded as not a true point guard which is why he floated around a lot. he didn't fit in with the teams he was with.

Agent0
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I agree with your point, yes, but it certainly isn't an easier way either, and requires a lot of bargains.

The CBA did affect it, but even relative to the CBA then, those guys were bargains. The max salary for a player with 0-6 years in the league was $9M. Ben Wallace had a salary starting at $4M. The current max salary for a similar player is $13M, so the equivalent would be getting Ben Wallace for a salary starting at $5.8M this coming season.

Billups actually first broke out in Minnesota with Garnett, but they moved him because they thought they would get Terrell Brandon back at a high level, which obviously didn't happen. They were paying Brandon $9.3M/year, so of course re-signing Billups didn't make sense unless they were moving Brandon (which in hindsight they should have since his injury issues just got worse). Billups was good and consistent both of his years there, really coming into his own in terms of being able to play PG.

As a starter he averaged 15/3/7, and in their 3 playoff games he averaged 22/5/6 (18/4/5 per 36) on .552 TS%. I liked Billups as a young basketball fan, so that's why this is in my memory.

In 03-04, the salary cap was $43.8M. Rasheed, RIP, Billups and Wallace cost a TOTAL of $31M, or 71% of the cap. The Pistons still had $12.8M under the salary cap outside of their main players. Rasheed was the only player who was being paid at the going rate for a player of his caliber at the time. Yes, Billups was a huge bargain for them, he was a better player than the contract they gave him, and actually even at that time, people said that.

The current salary cap is $58.7M. The equivalent now is getting 4 All-Stars and a good young role player for $41.5M. Not that terrible, but not easy either as it is hard to get guys that are good enough two way players for just $10M each. The Warriors might have the closest thing since they signed Curry early to a nice contract, but Lee is making too much for them. It's certainly not impossible, but the NBA has also added things like bonus for All-Star appearances, All-NBA teams, etc that increases the max of a player after his rookie contract

clipper*joe
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Agent0 wrote:
I agree with your point, yes, but it certainly isn't an easier way either, and requires a lot of bargains.

The CBA did affect it, but even relative to the CBA then, those guys were bargains. The max salary for a player with 0-6 years in the league was $9M. Ben Wallace had a salary starting at $4M. The current max salary for a similar player is $13M, so the equivalent would be getting Ben Wallace for a salary starting at $5.8M this coming season.

I never said it was the easier way, I said it can be done and has. I disagree that it requires bargains to achieve a championship with no superstars. While it may look like a bargain to you, players like Leonard, mills, and even Danny Green are paid accordingly based on rate or lack of demand. I use the these players based on my knowledge of the current CBA, not the older one used for the Pistons. They're not bargains, they didn't give up money to be in S.A..

Quote:
Billups actually first broke out in Minnesota with Garnett, but they moved him because they thought they would get Terrell Brandon back at a high level, which obviously didn't happen. They were paying Brandon $9.3M/year, so of course re-signing Billups didn't make sense unless they were moving Brandon (which in hindsight they should have since his injury issues just got worse). Billups was good and consistent both of his years there, really coming into his own in terms of being able to play PG.

Maybe we have differing opinions on what a bargain is. I usually look at a bargain player based on getting him at a discount price despite having other offers on the table. I can't look at it from the point of view where you look at what the player puts up Vs. what he gets paid. That's purely subjective. Their aren't specific standards for salary rate.

ClipperKyle32
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Just Question. If Miami Loses Tonight. How Many Of You Think He Leaves, and If You Think He Leaves, Where Does He Go?

JQuick32
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He's Clipper bound after this disgrace, provided Doc can convince him that this Sterling mess is ending soon.

clipper*joe
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Explain to me how that is going to be done. Provided you have an answer that complies with the CBA.

ClipperKyle32
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I mean he could take an MLE or something since he just received about 30 mil from the Beats-Apple deal. That would coverr about a years salary , but still do not see how it works under the CBA

ClipperKyle32
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LeBron looking like LeBron

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