Paul Pierce Signs with Wizards 2 Years $11 Million (P. 4)

Clippers TopBuzz Forum/Message Board » Clippers News & General Discussions
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Search This Topic:
 
JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

Pierce is old and washed-up. Just watch him completely lose his skills and turn into Dudley 2.0 if he signs with us. No thanks.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

IIRC Pierce's struggle was because the team was in flux, not due to his conditioning.

JQuick, Pierce is old, not washed up. Washed up refers to someone who has drastically declined in production and ability and that just doesn't describe Pierce at the moment. Saying Pierce is washed up is equivalent to saying Ginobili is washed up

spontane
Clipper Starter
 Avatar
Posts: 479

es.gif
votes: 9

I agree PP isn't washed up but I would have to say he is closer to washed up than being compared to Ginobli. Ginobli seems more conditioned and can still move in a quick way when needed. PP definitely has a different style of game but since he is so old and slow I don't see him staying healthy and being affective like he was in 2013/14 during 2014/15. I don't even want to think about a two year contract. If he would accept min that would be perfect for us but he is in lala land dreaming about 9-10 mil. He needs to wake up and come to the real la la land for min.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Paul Pierce has always been slow and has always looked a little pudgy, has nothing to do with age really, and he's also always had an old man game. It's nothing new...

I'd actually have more faith in Pierce being healthy than Ginobili if you look at their history. Pierce has a style of play that ages well.

namzug
Clipper All-Star
 Avatar
Posts: 1148
Location: So Cal
votes: 11

I just don't see his style meshing well with ours. I like it when the Clippers play fast and push the ball when given the opportunity. I like the toughness he could possibly bring, but he has seemed to be lumbering back and forth in a lot of games this last season.

I don't think he can guard most small forwards anymore. I also think he does good against teams when motivated (playing MIA or here in LA), but feel that he struggles a lot in the West. If we were talking about Pierce as a back up, I'd be ok with it. I just don't think he fits our style of basketball. I think he'll slow us down and am not sure if he'll mesh here.

Since I don't think he can guard I don't he'll fill anything we need on this team. I'm tired of all the offensive players Doc keeps bringing in and mentioning. Give me one perimeter defensive specialist. I'll take Deshawn Stephenson at this point. Xavier and Wes would cost the minimum and make me feel a lot better but I'm getting desperate for some damn defense at this point (I might be over reacting, but I don't want a repeat of last year where a lot of us knew we were missing a perimeter defender and overlooked it since we have Barnes and Doc's system).

I know we can't do much about it, but I can still vent.

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 16056
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 128

Washed-up has many interpretations so one has to understand how it's being used. Washed-up could mean he's just past his prime, can no longer do what he did in his prime, and can't be as consistent as he was in his prime. In terms of age, position he plays, he's way past his prime. He can no longer play the minutes he did a few years back. In other words, his age is the attributing factor in why some would consider him washed up.

I think it would be a grave mistake to try and get him on a 2 year deal in the vicinity of 5+ million a year. There is a huge chance he breaks down during that time. And what good would it do if he has to be limited in minutes and time A-LA-Wade? Is that what we want from a starting SF? Manu is not washed up. The guy is still athletic and is competitive as they come at his position. as long as he is still a vital part of Championship team ( He surely is) and productive, he is not washed up. hHe also has 4 less seasons of wear and tear than pierce does. Add minutes played from being a reserve, it adds up and it shows on the court. Demand is also an attributing factor in calling someone washed up too. perception is also a attributing factor. Washed-up doesn't necessarily mean they're they lost all skills to play. Just means time has passed up the player.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Manu has 4 less seasons of wear and tear but has played in more international competitions than any other NBA player and didn't two summers off for years. The continuous play without rest is going to be a bigger deal than 4 more years, especially since Manu was basically playing all year before the NBA too. Also Manu has played another quarter season more worth of playoff games (30 more). His minutes are limited even more so than Wade's or Pierce's, so because he's on a championship team and productive he's not washed up, but because Pierce is on a second round team and productive he's washed up? Pierce was a bench player in Brooklyn, there wasn't even a specific limiting of his minutes, he played the same minutes a Jamal Crawford would. 28 mpg for 75-76 games from your starter if he was to be a starter is not anything bad.

Manu had played 34/66 games 23.3 mpg, 60/82 games 23.3 mpg and 68/82 games 22.8 mpg. He's turning 37 in about 2 weeks.

Pierce has played 61/66 games 34.0 mpg, 77/82 games 33.4 mpg, 75/82 games 28 mpg and is turning 37 in 3 months.

Pierce was never as athletic as Manu, relative to their previous athletic ability, both guys have had a relatively similar athletic decline. Both guys were productive per minute and efficient. Per 36:

Manu: 20/5/7/1.6 stl/59.0% TS

Pierce: 17/6/3/1.5 stl/59.5% TS

I don't care if the team gets Pierce or not, but this is some selective interpretation going on here. I don't get the actual facts or logic outside of people not wanting Pierce, which is perfectly fine, but just say that, we don't have to make stuff up.

Btw, the actual definition of washed up is "no longer successful or needed", basically someone who isn't productive enough anymore to justify having them. Pierce doesn't fit that category, and I didn't say Manu was washed up, lol. Shaq in his last seasons was washed up, too injured and not worth having anymore. Pierce has declined, but decline =/= washed up as he hasn't drastically declined and is still a useful and successful player.

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 16056
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 128

Are you comparing international comps to a grueling 82 game season? While that is true, 4 extra seasons is a lot more. Manu has been limited to minutes not because he needs to, but because that's how Pop works. He's done that with all his players (i.e. Parker, Duncan). Wade had to be limited due to injury. How is it selective interpretation? Manu has been just as vital as anyone, if not more, when it comes to winning the championship this season. Manu's production in the regular season is on par with his career stats. It was slightly elevated in the post season. That's steady if you ask me. Pierce on the other hand, has lost offensive production from his career stats by almost half in terms of PPG. it isn't so far-fetched to say his offensive game has declined a lot which could also be interpreted as him being on a sharp decline or close to washed up. Now, if he can't guard younger SF's in his position any longer, he can be considered washed up. When a players starts accumulating more negatives than positives and the game is just too fast for him, he's washed up. Pierce is on the precipice of that.

Like i said earlier, you using Manu is totally wrong to make an argument. Manu's numbers from last season are on par with his career numbers. Pierce's are not.

realbull17
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2515

us.gif
votes: 6

Next Kevin Love for Wiggins. Wolves & Cavs are talking.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

I'm not comparing NBA and World Championships. The actual effect on a player health scientifically is the lack of rest and constant work whether it is games, practice, etc. Manu has had a ton of years of his career where he was resting for about half the time other players rest.

It's steady because Manu has played low minutes, while Pierce has played high minutes and is now lower. People are comparing Pierce's raw stats playing 39 MPG to his raw stats playing 28 mpg and calling that a drastic decline.

If you compare the same way, the same thing can be said about Manu. From 2006-2011 Manu averaged 17/4/4/1.5 steals in 28.9 mpg. The last 3 seasons Manu has averaged 12/3/4 in 23.1 mpg. So 6 less mpg. If you look per 36, he went from 21/5/5/1.8 steals per 36 to 19/5/7/1.7 steals Now of someone just totally ignores the Spurs playing him less, he dropped 5 PPG from his average. Career averages are crap, it includes his lower minute years and his early seasons, you have to compare to his prime.

Pierce from 2001-2011 averaged 23/6/4 in 37.4 mpg. His last 3 seasons, 17/5/4 in 31.7 mpg, 6 less mpg. Per 36 he went from 22/6/4/1.4 stl to 19/6/4/1.4 stl. Last season alone 17/6/3. If Pierce was playing only 33 mpg for those years he would be averaging 20 PPG, so this year he would drop,from 20 PPG to 14 PPG. Manu dropped from about 17 PPG to 12 PPG due to the same minute decrease. Basically almost exactly the same type of "decline".

Now maybe he declines next season, but from what we've seen, he's fine.

slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1061
votes: 6

So do we have any chance to get Paul Pierce? He's not worth $9M like he wants, but the Lakers just paid $9M for Jordan Hill so I'm pretty sure some team would overpay for Pierce. I don't really think we should trade Jamal Crawford for him and I know the Nets won't take Dudley or Barnes for him. Maybe we can offer a future draft pick or something along with either Dudley or Barnes?

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3292
votes: 27

I am getting more and more upset by the moment

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3292
votes: 27

I am irate man! WTF?

JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

We couldn't even get the corpse of Paul Pierce? This front office gets a big fat F for this offseason. Pathetic that we're going into another season with Barnes and Dudley at small forward.

slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1061
votes: 6

This sucks. We may as well just stick with Dudley and Barnes at SF this season.

Clipperfn4lf
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1498
votes: 11

ClipperKyle32 wrote:

I am irate man! WTF?

Why are you irate? Pierce obviously wanted to get paid (MLE). Hawes fills a much more important need for us and its a bargain compared to over paying pierce for the same amount of $. Overall, this was expected.

slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1061
votes: 6

Well, I think Spencer Hawes was a nice add. But I really think this is the end of offseason moves for the Clippers with the exception of a few veteran signs to fill out the bench. I hope we can get Big Baby back.

Dunkathon
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1212
votes: 9

Wait, you WANTED the corpse of Paul Pierce?

Just because you can make a move, doesn't mean you should make a move. Pierce is on his last legs, and there was no way he was going to take the vet's min to play with the Clippers. If the Clippers were going to get him, they were going to have to use the MLE.

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3292
votes: 27
I am because I have every right to be. Maybe we trade for Gerald Green if PHX gets Deng. Man! I know we improved a lot , but you cannot tell me that we are....

Please log in to view the entire post.

JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

Not at first, but at this point with Ariza signed and Deng chasing $$$, I'd have even settled for Pierce. That's how desperate we are at the small forward position.

Icecoldclipper
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 9498
votes: 20

I don't mind barnes as a back up SF but we need someone to start. We also need another quality big, I'm more frustrated over the draft not reaching or trying to trade up for need. Tyler zeller was traded to Boston for almost nothing we should of dealt our first for himor something.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Well that is surprising, but good for him and good for Washington, they needed a scorer and creator off the bench, and I didn't think Miller was enough for that, so this helps them.

slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1061
votes: 6

I wonder if Paul Pierce told the Nets that he's going to leave if they don't trade him to the Clippers. The Nets called his bluff and now Pierce is on Wizards. So the Nets would rather have nothing than either Dudley or Barnes. We should have thrown in a first round pick with Dudley.

JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

Sure looks like every other team in the league feels the same way. They're so bad that even the dumbest front offices in the league don't want them. How sad is that? And people really think we're going to win anything of note while relying on those two as rotation players?

realbull17
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2515

us.gif
votes: 6

Clips just keep getting bad news.

Dunkathon
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1212
votes: 9

You're fine on the bigs front, I think. The current 3 bigs should suffice. If you all really need a 4th one, Emka Okafor could be had for the vet's min. He would be a bit of a risk, coming off of his neck injury, but he would be useful if he returned to even half of what he used to be able to do. Ed Davis is still out there, too.

At this point, a new starting SF is a far bigger concern than another backup big.

Scplum
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 13
votes: 0

Pickings are getting slim I'm sure Doc is looking at trades and players who are getting released. As far as rankings you have Evan Turner and Shawn Marion as the 2 highest ranked free agents still out there.

clipper321
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1386
Location: California
calif.gif
votes: 10

When I hear news like this I always make sure to check Clipperstopbuzz to see Clipperkyle have a meltdown about it. Its actually rather entertaining.

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
 Avatar
Posts: 3292
votes: 27

LoL! I'm far from a meltdown big fella. I am just concerned about this team in that aspect of upgrading small forward. I may jump to conclusions when news hits me like this , but ClipperJoe repped me for this and I stick to it.

We had holes. We plugged them. Hawes and Farmar. We still have a slight hole with backup PF , but that can easily be fixed. Upgrading SF was important , but it was the last thing we would have attempted. So we'll see where we go from here

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 16056
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 128

Glad we dodged that bullet. I'd rather have Barnes and Dudley.

puddnhead83
Clipper Starter
Posts: 699
Location: San Francisco
votes: 3

Paul Pierce has become a slow defense-less, pull up shooter. The Clippers would of had to limit his playing time and games. Dudley and banes is a better combo than bringing Pierce on the team.

kjavis
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1115
votes: 3

Has the off season been this long that people already forgotten how shiet Dudley is but somehow its OK to settle for him now that we pretty much missed every wing on our wishlist. As far as free agency is concerned so far, the roster has progressed very little, sure Hawes is nice but he is just a backup and Farmar is just plugging up the hole DC left. The 2 and 3 are still too iffy for my liking

ClipTakeover
Clipper Starter
Posts: 784

calif.gif
votes: 2

Have people forgotten that you can trade for people who are not free agents? We still got a lot of options and the offseason isn't close to being over. We can still trade for players such as Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Thad Young and possibly even Jeff Green. We are completely fine guys, I don't see us going into next season with the same SF rotation as last year. I don't think Doc is incompetent to what it takes to win a championship, and he knows.

toohipcliptoslip
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4781
votes: 31

Who can we trade? Dudley or Barnes or JC and nobody wants Dudley. Resurrect Maggette. He can be in shape by Oct. Our feeling about PP is sour grapes. Dudley was THOUGHT to be good enough to start> Let us hope. If he plays to his usual selk OK

Okafur??? Doesn't his insurance pay him $$$? We won't need to pay him ??? but will he play?

JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

ClipTakeover wrote:
Have people forgotten that you can trade for people who are not free agents? We still got a lot of options and the offseason isn't close to being over. We can still trade for players such as Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Thad Young and possibly even Jeff Green.

Problem is, nobody wants those scrubs Barnes and Dudley, so I don't see how a trade gets done.

Quote:
We are completely fine guys, I don't see us going into next season with the same SF rotation as last year. I don't think Doc is incompetent to what it takes to win a championship, and he knows.

Doc isn't incompetent when it comes to COACHING a team to a championship, but putting together a championship team? I don't have any confidence at all there.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Backup PF isn't a hole, we're going to be running a 3 big rotation, we don't need a backup PF. Hawes is going to play as both our backup PF and C.

It's like Jeff Green on the Celtics, he was their backup SF and PF, so they didn't need those players. Pierce and Bass were the starting SF and PF. On a regular healthy night, the only player that players bench minutes at SF or PF was Jeff Green. That's the beauty of the situation. We need a 4th big, but that's for injury and foul trouble, they will not be a regular rotation player.

You run staggered rotations. That means you don't ever go full bench with your bigs. DJ comes out early, Hawes goes in and plays with Blake, Hawes stays, the Blake comes out and DJ and Hawes play together. It looks something like:

1st quarter:

DJ / Blake: 5 minutes

Hawes / Blake: 4 minutes

DJ / Hawes: 3 minutes

(Blake 9, DJ 8, Hawes 7)

2nd Quarter:

DJ / Blake: 4 minutes

Hawes / Blake: 5 minutes

DJ / Hawes : 3 minutes

(Blake 18, DJ 15, Hawes 15)

3rd Quarter:

DJ / Blake: 6 minutes

DJ / Hawes: 4 minutes

Hawes / Blake: 2 minutes

(Blake 26, DJ 25, Hawes 21)

4th Quarter:

DJ/Blake: 3 minutes

Hawes/DJ : 2 minutes

Hawes / Blake: 4 minutes

DJ / Blake: 3 minutes

Total: Blake 36, DJ 33, Hawes 27

So if you trust playing Hawes with DJ on defense then you don't need another backup that is consistently in the rotation.

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3292
votes: 27
Agent, Its not a huge hole , but it would be nice. I see us with the Spurs 3-Big Rotation Griffin/Jordan/Hawes Duncan/Splitter/Diaw Other guys are needed. Ivan Johnson, Ed Davis could come for Vet Min ( FA money....

Please log in to view the entire post.

CapsNClips
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4131

us.gif
votes: 50

Okay genius, let's hear your master plan for the offseason.

What would you have done?

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3292
votes: 27

hear* genius. Lol I had to Caps

CapsNClips
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4131

us.gif
votes: 50

Damn it, you got me. Gimme a break though, it's been 13 days since the beginning of free agency. I'm running on fumes here.

BaadMaster
Clipper Starter
Posts: 711
Location: Los Angeles
votes: 8

So some of you want the Clippers to become the Lakers? Sign Senior Citizen Paul Pierce for TWO years? Absurd. Spencer Hawes is 26. Farmar is, I think, 28 or so. That's how you build a team. Not old fogey over-the-hill overpriced fossils. Look what it got the Lakers.

You bide your time, and pick up the Danny Grangers toward the end of the season to help with the playoffs. Maybe you luck out on an unhappy player looking to win.

Thank God Doc didn't do the sentimental thing and overpay for an ex-Celtic who can't defend and whose best years are far behind him.

Well done, Doc Rivers.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Nah, championship teams generally have a balance of young and old players, so the idea that you build a championship team with only young players is just wrong and doesn't line-up with history.

Older players tend to out-perform their contracts and also tend to be on shorter contracts, so for their production you get a bargain and you usually aren't stuck with them for a long time. Spurs obviously had a lot of old guys, so did Miami in their two years, Dallas was starting: Kidd (37), and Terry (33) played the second most regular season minutes after Kidd. Kidd played 35.4 mpg in the playoffs, 32 year old Marion 32.9 mpg, and 33 year old Terry 32.6 mpg. Even 33 year old Peja played 18.4 mpg off the bench for them.

NBA fans have this weird notion that older players are bad or something, I have no clue where it comes from. Teams get old, that's part of it. You don't build a team when starting off with older players, but if you have a fairly young core as your main guys (CP/Blake/DJ/Redick/Hawes), you can definitely comfortably add older guys to plug in needs at a cheaper price and you just keep recycling older guys that will take less money than their production. You can't expect to easily get all players in their prime together, that's why there is a salary cap.

People need to stop this "they are old" stuff. If they are old and productive and fill a need on the team, it is perfectly fine, this isn't an old team adding more older players, it is a young core.

loyalclipfan
Clipper Starter
Posts: 848
Location: Mira Loma, Ca. 91752
votes: 3

I just saw this m'byea guy play last night for us, and IF he can keep playing like that in an nba game, then we should have him in training camp as our other big on the bench instead of hollins taking the same spot AND a pay day, yes?

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 16056
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 128

Spurs' core are the old guys but aside from that, they had a young bench along with two young starters. Heat on the other hand, had an old bench which I would say was the reason why they lost. They couldn't keep up with the Spurs' offense. In our situation, our older guys didn't show up (Crawford, Granger, hedu, Barnes). I agree, their has to be a mix but finding that mix with older players on short contracts is hit and miss.

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 16056
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 128

Also, in the case of the Mavs. while they were older ( not Pierce old- save Kidd), they were the core of the team that had at least 3 yrs with the Mavs when they won the finals. They didn't go out and look for a 36 yr old to fill in a starting position. In fact, they went out and got a 20 something center to anchor their defense which is what they were lacking. They also had Butler who unfortunately had a season ending injury. That's why Peja got more minutes.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

The mix is hard, but two year contracts with options usually get it done after guys hit 35 years old. Mavs were an interesting case, they traded a young Devin Harris for a 34 year old Jason Kidd. They traded a young Antoine Wright (24 years old) who started 53 of the 65 games he played in a multi team trade to get the 31 year old Shawn Marion, so they basically just went back and got some youth again when they went and picked up Chandler (stupid trade by Charlotte).

...and yes, a team with an older core will want youth (Boston with Rondo/Perkins, starting Bradley over Allen then getting Green, but they traded Perkins for Green, so he cost something), while a team with a younger core can use more older guys as stop gaps as their youth develops. Well every team wants youth really if they produce, let's be real, but good young players are expensive.

For the Clippers for example, if you get Pierce it should be because you moved Crawford or Barnes, there's no need for 3/4 of your wings to be 34+ years old unless you have some young developing guys on the bench. If you get Pierce you then back him up with a 26 year old W.Johnson or 23 year old Aminu so their athleticism and defense compliment his greater skills and efficiency.

Team is getting younger though, all three bigs are 26 and under, Bullock and Wilcox are young additions. 10/14 players were under 32 to end last season. So far we have only Jamal and Barnes over 32 years old actually since Green is gone and Hedo hasn't been signed. Team only seemed older because Dudley (28) plays like an old vet, Davis (28) was the anti-thesis of athletic, and Granger (30) was a guy returning from being constantly inured, but none of them are even old

...and I realized that you added Granger to the old guys, but yea, he was fake old, he's just an overly injured player. We can't get youth and high skill without assets or money though, we either get old with skill or young with raw talent and less skill with our situation. I like the mix of one of each.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4961
votes: 38

^^^ no one wanted chandler at the time, everyone thought he was overpaid and not efficient enough. Most people didn't think it was a stupid trade. The thunder had traded for him months before but it was nixed due to knee problems in the physical. They still could have taken him but they viewed it as an out. It's funny how people forget these things. Goes back to its not all about the stats...

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4961
votes: 38

^^ edit: I meant to say most people thought it was a stupid trade

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44
^^^ no one wanted chandler at the time, everyone thought he was overpaid and not efficient enough. Most people didn't think it was a stupid trade. The thunder had traded for him months before but it was nixed due to knee problems in the physical. They still could have taken him but they viewed it as an out. It's funny how people forget these things. Goes back to its not all about the stats...
Cool story, not sure what stats have to do with anything. Chandler wasn't even good statistically for Charlotte. Chandler was expiring and they....

Please log in to view the entire post.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4822
votes: 44

Then your response to me doesn't make any sense, lol, okay? Isn't that what I said???

Go To the Top of the ThreadGo Home

or Comment Using FB

Post new topic   Reply to topic


← Clippers Future Draft Picks 2015, 2016, 2017 & 2018

→ Extension For Clippers Sale

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

register
You are an anonymous user- Register now!


Follow our Los Angeles Clippers RSS Feed, plus the Clippers Rumors RSS Feed, the LA Clippers News RSS feed, and the Clippers Forum RSS feed to get the newest updated Clippers News and Trade Rumors plus Clippers Game update in your RSS/XML reader!