Clippers Sign Spencer Hawes to 4 Years 23 Million (P. 3)

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toohipcliptoslip
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DJ max $10 mill or gone especially if Hawes has a trade penalty clause. Maybe just gone. Trade him? No there isn't a player out there worth him. (What is the correct grammatical construction?) He is an integral part of our game. Forget LeMelo please.

pageC4
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kyle the concern isn't whether Hawes is better than those guys, we all know that. the concern is whether his defence is going to be good enough because that's the thing we are lacking...that's my concern with Hawes.

Cliptonyte
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Overrated? If anything, he has been underrated around here for the last few years.

inventor310
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Frank13

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I smell a trade or something huge coming from the Clippers after the signing of Spencer Hawes. Anyone think the same? #ClipperNation

I do! I do! Paul Pierce is coming to LA...

ClipperKyle32
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He isn't too shabby defensively. Watching Film on Him. He makes great passes. Most of them are on slashes by Deng , which I believe is still attainable or atleast I hope so

clipper*joe
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I also think he's overrated here as a defensive presence. Someone posted late last season how bad our defense was in the paint. DJ was one of the worst paint protectors in the league based on those numbers. With that said, he was the leading rebounder in the league so that deserves credit. Some say he vastly improved. Some will say Doc improved his game. I say Doc gave him his role and told him, "this is who you are-Do your job-don't worry about anything else". DJ did exactly that. DJ didn't miraculously learn to box out. he didn't learn how to defend a post player in one off season. He finally accepted his role on this team and who he is. I guess he finally found a coach he respected and feared. That's all that was. he put DJ's ego in place and that worked for us and him. Up until Doc got here, he thought he deserved a bigger piece of the pie and pouted when he didn't get it. Doc told him here is your piece and make the best of it cause this is what you get.

What's great about Hawes is that he is a good rebounder (8.3- 30mpg), good passer (3 -30mpg), and can block shots (1.2-30mpg). But what is great about him, he is a offensive threat. No matter what happens to DJ, we now have a center that can create space for our other players. We know have a legit center that can pass, score, and hit free throws late in games if DJ isn't hitting FA's. That's what is really going to help us close out games.

ClipperKyle32
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Jerediscool
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I'm not reading any of the comments here, but if anyone isn't excited for this they aren't really Clipper fans. This is just about perfect for us, now and long term

Icecoldclipper
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Hawes is here for bench support let him play his role bringing up DJ at the line as killer didn't hurt us come post season. Getting beat on the perimeter and our bigs in foul trouble was though.

clipper*joe
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But it's DJ's job to protect the paint when players get beat. Guess what? A center is the last line of defense.That's his job. Players always get beat whether it's through screens, or just penetration. That's a cop out. Some of that falls on BG too.

Icecoldclipper
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It worked against Golden State but against the Thunder we needed to hold our own on the perimeter better. Everyone knew OKC was going to get calls for Durant and Westbrook and it happened like planned. I don't blame the refs for everything like most but against freak athletes getting to the rim drawing contact and forcing us to go small was killer. Its on everybody even Doc with using Davis and Griffin combo when he should of went with Granger and Griffin.

Agent0
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You get beat on the perimeter, but you don't want to get beat easily. The reads on the pick and roll were a bit of an issue with us. DJ was out of position on his reads a lot of the time against Westbrook / Perkins pick and rolls and it was giving Westbrook angles to the rim as opposed to forcing long mid-range shots.

Westbrook is going to get to the basket no matter who you have on defense, you just want to limit how many times, then you want to contain on pick and roll so that he has to pull up for contested mid-range jumpers. The contest was a bit hard on the jumpers because Paul isn't long enough to recover and contest as well as a longer defender (eg: Green or Lee) on Westbrook.

DJ is not an elite defensive anchor that some of our fans might think due to his numbers. He's not on the level of Duncan, M.Gasol, etc, he's above average, but we'll see how he progresses this coming year also.

pageC4
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He isn't too shabby defensively. Watching Film on Him. He makes great passes. Most of them are on slashes by Deng , which I believe is still attainable or atleast I hope so

yeah, hopefully his defense is sufficient. I don't remember watching much of him, and he doesn't have a reputation for being a lockdown defender like a Tony Allen, Shane Battier, or Metta World Peace in his prime. Hopefully he does well defensively though because that is where we need a major contribution. I'm happy at this acquisition don't get me wrong just apprehensive on whether this will be the answer to our back up big problem. ill hold on a judgement until a few games into the season and see how he pans out. still, despite my reservations I do have to say this was a coup. Doc pulled this deal off with practically zero cap space and didn't have to give up a good piece to get it done...very good move.

also, thanks for the youtube clips Kyle

ClipperKyle32
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clipper*joe
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ClipperKyle32 wrote:

Nice find!

pageC4
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ClipperKyle32 wrote:
wow, Hawes uses that frame to make things uncomfortable for other players. great find Kyle, this makes me feel better about Hawes

FightOnRon
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I don't really follow the NBA as much as you guys,I just watch all the Clipper games and know my team. So after spending some quality internet time looking at Spence,I smell a big trade coming in the forward/center(?) spot. He seems to be everything DJ thought he would be but isn't. We really got a solid good backup or even stater here. We are either going to lose a starter or a whole lot of the bench pretty soon.

ClipperKyle32
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I'd say its a whole lot of bench plus our starting small forward. As far as the 1,2,4, and 5 are set. Like Doc said, our team was very close to the WCF. To trade....

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clipperboy24
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ClipperKyle32 wrote:

Great clip of the new clipp! He really plays smart by making it awkward for the offensive player, keeping them of balance by not just bodying them up the whole time or giving them space the whole time. I love that

Agent0
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Hawes and DJ are different players. DJ has never been a "great" man to man defender, Hawes might be better in some matchups there, I don't know. DJ is a better pick and roll defender, that's his main thing. Hawes is a spacer and finesse finisher while DJ is an interior guy, they bring different things.

Anyways, like I said, we need Scott Skiles. Remember this quote

  • "Thankfully playing under Scott one thing I learned was to really play defense as a big," Bogut said. "That's helped me get the contract I did here."

If a guy goes out of his way to credit a coach he isn't even playing for anymore, you know something good happened. Marc Gasol is not some special athlete either, but he's an excellent defensive big man, actually neither is Hibbert. Bogut was not a shot blocker in college. His first two NBA seasons under Stotts, he averaged 1.0 and 0.6 blks PER 36 minutes! His third year his shot blocking jumped drastically for one, then Skiles came in and he went from an okay defensive big man to an elite defensive big man. His defensive rebounding, shot blocking all started to improve.

First 3 seasons: 6.5 DREB/36, 1.2 blk/36. Next 4 seasons: 8.0 DREB/36, 2.4 blk/36. He was 24 years old and in his 4th season when Scott Skiles became his coach.

tense2
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I also think he's overrated here as a defensive presence. Someone posted late last season how bad our defense was in the paint. DJ was one of the worst paint protectors in the league based on those numbers. With that said, he was the leading rebounder in the league so that deserves credit. Some say he vastly improved. Some will say Doc improved his game. I say Doc gave him his role and told him, "this is who you are-Do your job-don't worry about anything else". DJ did exactly that. DJ didn't miraculously learn to box out. he didn't learn....

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tense2
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ClipperKyle32 wrote:

Unfortunately, "Highlights" don't paint the complete picture of a player abilities or lack there of. Need those"Lowlights" too. Very Happy

ClipperKyle32
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Oh do you need to see Hawes get dunked on by Turkoglu? Jamal? Caron Butler? I have those as well. Not to mention Blake dunked on him. Thought it was too soon for those. Saving....

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tense2
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Yeah, those "Highlights" of Mullins last year sure helped Doc get the most out of him, lol.

Doc ain't a miracle worker, he can only do so much.

clipperboy24
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Bring on the lowlights if you are going to mention them.

Hawes is a solid man on man defender. His overall defense can use some improvement but honestly the stats of rim protection don't take into account the rest of the team, doesn't seem like it can properly benchmarked with that reality.

JQuick32
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Mullens had highlights?

Agent0
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RAPM is usually a good idea of a player's impact. It's also good to look at RAPM over multiple seasons as it gets more accurate. Hawes was a -1.7 defensive RAPM last season. That doesn't signify good defender, but that's also not indicative of a terrible defender persay, but a poor one. But he's been a major player on some good defenses, so that gives some hope

Let's look at multiple seasons.

Hawes Defensive RAPM:

13-14: -1.7

12-13: +1.1

11-12: +0.6

10-11: +1.1

09-10: +0.1

So instead of just one season, we are looking at 5 seasons, and what we're actually seeing is that for 3 seasons he was an above average defender based on RAPM which measures +/- and adjusts for teammates. So RAPM suggests that while Hawes was bad on defense last season, it might have just been related to poor effort last season, not that he is an overall bad defensive player.

Let us look at DJ just for comparison.

DJ Defensive RAPM:

13-14: +0.6

12-13: +3.1

11-12: +3.5

10-11: +2.7

09-10: +0.9

While DJ only came out average last season, the previous 3 seasons he actually ranked as a high impact defender for 3 straight seasons before this, which is a positive sign. RAPM is good in that it tends to cancel out our pre-conceived biases. If you don't think a player is a good defender, you are more likely to focus on when they fail than when they succeed and vice versa. Also something that is consistent over multiple seasons tends to suggest it is a real finding and not due to statistical variance.

So while he was bad last season, defensive RAPM suggests that Hawes is actually an average defensive player, maybe just slightly above average which means in the end, his defensive rebounding, shot blocking, length, and maybe man to man defense make up for whatever things he might be bad at when it comes to pick and roll defense and mobility.

Similarly with DJ, defensive RAPM suggests that while he only have comparatively average defensive impact last season, he was a high impact defender for the three prior seasons, and despite the things he might screw up, his length, athletic ability and mobility help to make up for his sometimes mediocre IQ man to man defense and mis-reading of plays.

So both ways, those are good things. If you want to see how more below average defenders rank

David Lee defensive RAPM:

13-14: -0.2

12-13: +1.1

11-12: -0.7

10-11: -0.7

09-10: -0.2

So it suggests that he's generally a bit below average on defense. He's still a very good defensive rebounder and boxes out, and his man to man defense is averagish, so he isn't terrible as people might think, though he's an awful rim protector (but you shouldn't use him like that anyways).

Byron Mullens defensive RAPM

13-14: -4.5

12-13: -2.6

11-12: -1.7

10-11: -1.5

09-10: -1.7

And there ladies and gentlemen is what a defensive liability ACTUALLY looks like. I know people get on guys like Lee and Boozer who are below average, but not actually liabilities, but Mullens shows the consistency of what a defensive liability looks like statistically.

Agent0
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Oh you should have seen the people last off-season despite me trying to explain the reality that the guy is not just a bad offensive and defensive player and that our expectation should be that, and if he improves from that, then we would have a useful player.

The baseline for Mullens was a bad player, anything more required him drastically improving his shooting and basketball IQ. Instead they would find the couple of games a year where he actually made shots and ascribe that to the possible impact he could have on this team while seemingly ignoring that for the next 5 games he shot under 35% FG and was still awful on defense all those games. That's why we have cumulative stats, so that singular performances, whether good or bad don't cloud judgement of a players actual ability.

chonkyfire24
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How much of a defensive liability can a 7' guy really be? If he can't play defense at that size, it might be a coaching problem.

ClipperPostman
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IMO this move was done to move Jamal not DJ. People are saying we need defense, but coming off the benchJamal and collison was our only offense. Collison is gone and say we trade Jamal, our bench scoring will probably be worst in NBA.

You do realize on the clippers bench scoring 18.6 ppg were Jamals and and 11.4 ppg were Collisons.

That Is 30 ppg... off the bench gone. If Doc were to get a "defensive" back up big who couldn't score then traded Jamal for a starting SF (like most seem to want), which puts barnes on the bench... Well he'd be an idiot... There would be no way to plug those offensive holes. This was a smart move by Doc.

*Applauds.

ClipperKyle32
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@GameReporter32: If OKC amnesties Kendrick Perkins, I wonder how a Hawes-Perkins frontcourt would coexist off the bench with Doc at the helm? Just a question. Perkins could still defend , and occasionally stepped out on Point....

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CapsNClips
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I'd gladly take Perkins on the bench.

ClipperKyle32
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Say we get Ariza. I hope we could keep Barnes. If he left we'd be one of the softest teams in the League. Hypothetical thinking here Perkins is amnestied. We pick him up. Jamal and Dudley....

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Agent0
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chonkyfire24 wrote:
How much of a defensive liability can a 7' guy really be? If he can't play defense at that size, it might be a coaching problem.
This is certainly not true, you would be surprised.

1) Fouling too much / not being able to stay our of foul trouble

2) Slow footed and always late on rotations

3) Poor instincts and being out of position on defense

There are some terrible defenders who are 7 footers, Hawes is not one of them, but oh, you can be 7' tall and be an awful defender.

Quote:

IMO this move was done to move Jamal not DJ. People are saying we need defense, but coming off the benchJamal and collison was our only offense. Collison is gone and say we trade Jamal, our bench scoring will probably be worst in NBA.

You do realize on the clippers bench scoring 18.6 ppg were Jamals and and 11.4 ppg were Collisons.

That Is 30 ppg... off the bench gone. If Doc were to get a "defensive" back up big who couldn't score then traded Jamal for a starting SF (like most seem to want), which puts barnes on the bench... Well he'd be an idiot... There would be no way to plug those offensive holes. This was a smart move by Doc.

*Applauds.

This is true, and I know to simplify it we say it like this, but it's not the most accurate thing as we know that Jamal played more minutes than a bench player and he wasn't putting up 19 PPG in just bench minutes, neither Collison who started a good amount of games. Rate of scoring helps, but depending on who we got as a starting SF, we could have balanced it out without Hawes anyways.

1) Redick played 35 games

2) Redick had played 78/82 and 65/66 games with 30.5 MPG and 27.2 MPG his previous two seasons

So is Redick injury prone? Maybe not, so going into this season compared to last season where we had 35 games * 28.2 MPG = 987 minutes of Redick, we're more likely to expect about 78 games * 28 MPG = 2184 minutes of Redick. So some of that scoring slack is picked up.

Paul missed 20 games. His previous 3 seasons, 70/82, 60/66 and 80/82, so while he'll miss a game here and there, he missed the same amount of games last season as he had missed his previous 3 seasons combined. So we technically we can expect another 300-350 minutes from Paul this coming season.

So are we trying to replace 30 PPG of bench scoring? Of course not, those guys played big bench minutes (30.3 and 25.6), with a healthier roster, our backup SG plays 20 MPG as opposed to 30.3 MPG and our backup PG plays about 15-16 MPG as opposed to 26 MPG. So Jamal and Collison in those minutes would have given us closer to 19 PPG combined in those minutes than 30 PPG combined. Still, their rate of scoring isn't easy to replicate off the bench, but even if we don't get a guy like Hawes, let us say we get Famar (16.4 pts/36) vs Collison (15.9 pts/36), we actually balance out in terms of scoring rate of production there.

Then let us say we can pull off a Vince Carter signing (11.9 PPG / 24.4 MPG). Jamal (18.3 PPG / 30.3 MPG) vs new backup SG (7.2 PPG / 20 MPG = 13 pts/36), let's also assume this season both Vince and Jamal drop in scoring rate, Vince (16.3 pts/36 = 10.8 pts in 24 mins) and Jamal (20.5 pts/36 = 11.4 pts in 20 mins).

Healthy Redick + SG = 15.2 PPG + 7.2 PPG = 22.4 pts/48 mins @ SG

Vince Carter + Barnes = 10.8 PPG + 8.7 PPG = 19.5 pts/48 mins @ SF

Last season we had something like:

27.4 pts/48 mins @ SG (a little less because Collison played a lot of SG since Redick was injured)

15.9 pts/48 mins @ SF

So in a scenario like that, PG stays the same, we're -5 in pts/48 at SG and we're +3.6 in pts/48 at SF. So net is -1.4. If we still accomplish this scenario, but with Hawes, we might actually end up net positive off the bench even without Jamal if we get a scorer off the bench like a Vince, and I didn't add a starting caliber SF that Jamal might be traded for. So we would drop off at SG, but then we would pick it up at SF presumably both with the starter and the bench and then at the big man positions. Of course PPG isn't all that matters, efficiency needs to be taken into account when we are talking about team offense, but I think we should be quite fine.

Agent0
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A cheap Perkins is not problem off the bench, no complaints about serviceable players at minimum contracts

pageC4
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the plot thickens. Having Perk on this team would be awesome

clipper*joe
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While DJ's Rim protection (49.4%) needs to improve and he wasn't in the elite category it was better this year then; Chandlers, Gasol, Drummond, Gortat, Dalembert, Cousins, Plumlee, Valanciunas, Vuvevic and Varejao. I think the addition of Hawes is a good thing, especially on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't consider him a good rebounder (even though he's improved a bit the last couple of years). He's slightly below average (PER48) for his position. Defensively he's slightly below average. His RIM protection % (53.3%) makes DJ's look very good, lol. Again, with those minuses, a good addition overall. http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?SeasonType=Regular%20S eason&Season=2013-14&PlayerOrTeam=Player&pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&filte rs=
I never said....

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CapsNClips
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Is anyone even reporting that the Thunder are thinking about Amnestying Perkins??

Agent0
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Have no clue, Kyle might just be speculating

ClipsGForce
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Ugh no. Perkins provide nothing for the team.

toohipcliptoslip
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Just for funzies, maybe we are going to trade DJ with his expiring contract and he gets an extension. We don't want to pay $11mill +. We start Hawes and get two decent players if we can make some trades work. Would you rather have Hawes and Deng or DJ and Barnes?

StrikeBack
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I posted DJ's rim protection stat(Offensive fg percentage at the rim w/ DJ close by) last year and it improved as the season went on, but midway through the season it was well above 50%. All of the mid to top centers were better then him.

tense2
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Never said you said Hawes was better DJ, lol. Just pointing out his strengths and weakness.

I agree with you regarding his offense as I mentioned before. And it is a fair trade off his stretching the floor vs Rim Protection.

DJ is a much better rebounder no matter how many more minutes he gets then Hawes. Look at his career RPM numbers. Last season he improved on those stats while already being an above average rebounder for his position. Hawes as I did mention, has improved a bit on his rebounding recently, so that's a plus.

Hawes does solve ONE of our bigs problem. Now go out and get Davis (PF) and the other is solved.Smile

tense2
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Well that would mean something if we only played 1/2 a season, lol. That's why we average out the WHOLE year.

Hopefully DJ continues to improve.

Agent0
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He would essentially be replacing Ryan Hollins and be the 5th big man assuming we get Davis, meh

Agent0
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I don't get it, we currently have DJ + Hawes + Barnes and Deng wants $12M...

kjavis
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this could well be our best pickup of the offseason, /sigh

clipperboy24
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I think toohip is saying you could trade DJ and Barnes for Deng and Hawes (if you added another small contract we could even keep our mle for another player).

That's definitely a tempting thought...

cashdld
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I rather look at Wilson chandler cheaper a good defender,athletic, he can score and he's locked up for 3 years on a good contract and he is 27 years who knows maybe under doc his game can expand even more. Possibly trade Barnes,dudley,a future 1st rounder for Wilson chandler and nate Robinson/or Aaron Brooks

ClipperKyle32
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Random Question. Only been here a full year and fan for life , but Does CTB give out awards to Users every Year?

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