Free Agents Ideas for Clippers (P. 65)

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Flushyriver
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Yeah that's actually pretty cool, but I don't think there's any serious spacing issues in a lineup with Collison, Jamal, Barnes, Mullens, and a TT or Ivan because of Mullens and his versatility. I wouldn't like a move to get the new Harrington-lite (Wasn't it reported he dropped around 30 pounds or so this offseason?).

It's great that we'll have a secondary unit that can put up points, but you know a group that puts up even more points? Our starting unit. I don't think points should be a priority.

I get that we won't be playing two completely different squads next season and another player that can play a stretch big man position can be useful in spots and particular schemes, but I just thought the backup big man plug in for defensive matchups is way higher on the wishlist. Or atleast it should be.

@ClipperKyle32: I don't think that's likely because any player that signs with the Clippers is likely coming for the situation and if Doc sells the idea of joining the team and then ships them immediately somewhere else it just looks bad.

Could possibly do a sign and trade if Harrington signs on for cheap because we do have some salary flexibility with the TPE. But a team that is hunting for Harrington, has a high payroll, and expendable bigs that fit our team better is hard to find.

EDIT: @Dude: Did you happen to find any rumor site that suggested Harrington might consider the Clippers? I can't find much besides just the announcement.

Oh and rumor is Kwame Brown may be waived soon too. I don't think we're in the market for a center, but I know Kwame may have some bidders looking for a bargain. Possibility?


pageC4
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Bench is going to allows our staters to come into the playoffs well rested. Once in the playoffs then perhaps we won't rely on the bench as much seeing that during most games you have a day of rest between games. I guess you can say that the bench's value is to save up our starters for the PO's. Either way we are looking solid. As most of us here have noticed though we do need to make sure this last guy we get is a more defensive minded big. We are a little heavy on floor spacers, and we could use more D


Agent0
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@ClipperKyle32, Well the solution against Gasol and Randolph could just be a defensive strategy issue. Hard doubles, get the ball out of their hands, play disciplined and dont' foul and make the perimeter guys beat you.

Still, I have also been waiting for that defensive guy off the bench all off-season, but you're right, it has yet to come. I think spacing is important, remember Gentry is the offensive coach, and I'm going to assume he is having influence in that area of things when it comes to player selection.

...but like you said, starters are more important in the post-season, and defense against a team like Memphis is still going to be reliant on how Blake and DJ defend.

TT is that type of rim protecting player, but you're always worried about the guys man to man defense in the post against bigger guys though because he is skinny.

His shot has developed over the years, his form is actually pretty decent, and the last 3 seasons / 250 FT attempts. he's shot 78.4% FT, so that's always a good indication. He was never able to stretch out to 3PT range, but if he had, a 3PT shooting, shot blocking, pretty decent rebounding stretch PF is a guy a lot of teams would like on their team.

If people are still having nightmares of the Memphis bigs, Kwame Brown is actually the perfect option. Big body and quite good as a man to man defender, just not much of a team defender. Also rebounds well.


Flushyriver
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I'm going to continue to live in denial and say he finally goes to the Bobcats and settles down his career on a rocking chair at the corner 3.

I think there are still a few solid defensive big options (in terms of backups) if that was truly what the Clipper FO was looking for. And quite more than a few big options that are atleast better than Jamison defensively. Their interest in Jamison tells me that such a player is either not really in their sights or they evaluate defensive bigs differently than we do. It feels like they're going for a poor man's Lamar Odom in this move. Guess they can't see that Lamar Odom himself is currently a poor man's Lamar Odom...


lobcityhawaii
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Silasie wrote:
Where is this Doc having dinner with Jamison rumor coming from?

@SpearsNBAYahoo: Lakers free agent forward Antawn Jamison is having dinner with Clippers coach Doc Rivers on Saturday night, a source told Y! Sports.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpearsNBAYah ... 2306963457


Silasie
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lobcityhawaii wrote:
@SpearsNBAYahoo: Lakers free agent forward Antawn Jamison is having dinner with Clippers coach Doc Rivers on Saturday night, a source told Y! Sports.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpearsNBAYah ... 2306963457

Thanks for the link. I hope its not true.


lobcityhawaii
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No problem. I hope it's not true also. I rather have Odom. Our interior defense personnel wise isn't that good. Hopefully Docs team defense and strategy can help overcome it.

Our 2nd unit offense could be pretty good. All 5 guys can spread the floor, giving Collison and Crawford room to drive.


Silasie
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Surely Doc would want a better defender than Jamison considering who we already have. Or is he that confident of his defensive strategies?


lobcityhawaii
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Yeah, maybe he's confident in his defensive strategies. Time will tell how it all works out. I like Jamison's offensive game but individually his defensive is pretty bad.


CP3Heliflopter
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You can definitely compensate with good defense. The Bulls managed to hide Boozer in their defense which is quite an accomplishment. They also have defensive liabilities like Nate and to a lesser extent Rose.

Still I am skeptical about him but w/e.


Icecoldclipper
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They had Deng/Noah/Rose/Butler/Gibson/Nazar and mastermind on D Thibs. I don't know how we are going to run rotations but Dudley/Barnes/Hollins/Jordan/Paul seem like the only aggressive defenders. We might not go full bench squad as much or at all last year but another defende/length/ hustle big would do wonders to help with overall balance.


loyalclipfan
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we all must be missing something.there must be other considerations that we don't know about Jameson whether he's in better shape or they're letting him know that they possibly want to use him in a....

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da11da
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Maybe Doc isn't having dinner with Jameson at all?


CP3Heliflopter
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Well Rose isn't a good defender so I am not sure why you mentioned him. We just need a backup big that can play defense and we are good. DJ and BG need to improve on that end too and they probably will under River's guidance.


clippersforlife33
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according to real gm, jamison already had dinner with doc rivers last night (friday)


Agent0
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Boozer is an interesting one because due to him being a very good rebounder, he brings a lot of positives to the defense. He actually isn't an atrocious defender or anything like people make it seem, he's fairly average defensively at PF.

Rose also has grown into an average defender after being pretty poor at the start of his career.

Good defense can definitely hide certain players though. Of course there are still levels and there's only so much you can do. I would be more comfortable trying to hide Harrington than Jamison for example.


CP3Heliflopter
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I dunno about that. He plays a lot of matador defense like Amare and Al Jefferson and on and off stats suggest otherwise. Lets just say he a fairly poor defender. I still consider Rose slightly below average though I haven't seen him play in ages so that could change for the better or the worse.


Flushyriver
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Better with us than against us.


Agent0
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His on/off isn't too fair to him because he's backed up by Taj Gibson who is an excellent defender.

Slightly below average could work for Rose, he's in the average range


Flushyriver
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Bleacher Report ranked benches in the league and put ours 3rd behind the Pacers and the Knicks. The argument was basically we lost more than we gained on the bench (i.e. (Bledsoe+Turiaf+Odom+Hill) - (Collison+Mullens+Bullock)= negative net value). Look for one more big to join the tribe and prove them wrong!

Whether you agree that the Knicks' bench is the deepest in the league or not, the report really opens up your eyes to seeing just how much deeper already good teams got this offseason if you want to see the full ranking. The top tier of teams are sure going to be battling it out...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1724604-ranking-the-deepest-teams-i n-the-nba-post-2013-free-agency


Silasie
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Thanks for link!


ClipperKyle32
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About the bench link!!!!!

You don't rely on your bench in the Playoffs!! We could not do that last year so I don't really care about having that OMG Deep Bench!!


Silasie
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That a good point, our bench was prehaps the best/deepest of all teams last season, but it was balanced by having some weaker starters-Green, Billups and Butler. And come the playoffs being so reliant on the bench became a problem.


Icecoldclipper
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Deep bench worked two years ago and during a off season where we uprgraded the starting spots with better fit and role players one more OMG bench run would be great. I really like this bench the previous two seasons our bench bigs were all one dimensional on defense (Odom was suppose to be offensive threat) we needed some kind of shooting or scoring. As poor as Mullens numbers were last year the hope under Doc is he will be given better shot opportunities and take smarter shots. So Clippers finally got someone who is a more so threat to score we still need another defensive big that can run the floor and put ultimate effort into defending and rebounding.

Even though Darren is not the defender Bledsoe was for us his ability to control the ball better should end in better overall results and being able to score from mid range.


Andrew818
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Much rather have Harrington than Jamison.Hopefully Doc has a talk with Al before just getting our FO to give Jamison a contract.Doc is a smart guy,I doubt he will over look Harrington.Harrington has more scoring tools than Jamison does.He also is younger,a better rebounder,and a better defender than Jamison.


itsLuigi
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i hope they don't mess up the offseason by getting jamison

if only there was a way to tell doc to get someone else


CapsNClips
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Jamison and Harrington are such similar players, I wouldn't be mad with either one of them. I just don't think we need another floor spacer. Ivan Johnson is the only guy I'd hold out for, we need a bruiser/rebounder guy. If he's gone then I say pull the trigger on Harrington or Jamison or even Odom if he's in shape.


namzug
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Ivan's agent is looking at offers over seas. I don't know what the hold up is he is a perfect fit for us. I think he would take minimum at this point and provide everything we need from a back up pf. Al and Jamison have never been thought of great guys to bring in to a locker room, I've heard mixed reviews for Jamison in the past but nothing but negative stuff from Harrington.

I don't really know what the hold up is on bringing in a younger back up. Harrington and Odom seem lazy to me.


DocHollywood
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If Ivan is looking overseas, that means he's looking for more money then league minimum....


namzug
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He had already stated that he would take league minimum from a contender. Unless he wants to stay on the East coast or something like that, I don't see him really having against coming out here since he went to school out here. I think there might be some political reasons, since he did say KG was dirty last year and Doc might not like that.


itsLuigi
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i would rather take Odom over Johnson

Odom was just getting his game back at the end of the season

he was starting to make the 3s and really defended Marc and Randolph pretty well

he could do a lot better in Rivers system


namzug
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The only problem I have with Odom, is you don't know if he is fattening up all over again. He was supposedly getting back in shape last season, and I don't think Doc is going to play him into shape like Vinny did. This was happening when he was getting 8 million and now he's supposed to stay in shape for the minimum.

Ivan is a hustle player that will put effort on every play and he's got size to him (not length) I think he has the physicality to give other physical players problems. Jamison's minimum will set us over the cap and am guessing Odom's would too, I don't think Ivan's would. Ivan might not be interested, I just want to hear that there was an effort made.


Silasie
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Its a good point. Odom is in the habit of letting himself go in the off season and playing himself into shape once things start up again (hardly professional).

When he played for team USA over the summer he came back into the season in much better shape than is his habit. So yeah it would be tedious to have to wait for him to get it together again, a definite disadvantage.


Agent0
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Harrington has worked a lot in rehab and after having complications, I wouldn't say laziness is what I get from that


LAbreakers
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we have one glaring need, plain and simple, and same as it ever was.... we need a banger for the playoffs to spell Blake and take the edge off the other team's interior bigs if and when need be.... our Achilles heel has been our health/durability come playoffs, with our star players....

if Ivan Johnson is still available, can't see why he isn't the perfect guy.... also have no idea how people are defending Lamar's interior D come playoff time.... he takes the ball out of the net, end of story.... he can't defend a Duncan or the like to save his life....

first up we need to have Chris and Blake healthy throughout any playoff run, and.... we need a big to take some of the cheap shots, and ensure things of that sort are fairly/evenly distributed on both sides....


Flushyriver
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I feel ya about the Ivan thing. Just don't want him to be overlooked altogether by the FO.

I know Jamison's minimum would put us over the cap, but I think Ivan's would too. Unless we waived Wayns I guess, but I don't think it's really avoidable at this point. We're a likely candidate to pay this year.


namzug
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0- Old habits die hard, and I'm just talking about his efforts on the floor. I'm talking of what I've heard from Knicks and Nuggets fans regarding his effort specifically rebounding or on the defensive side of the ball. I would prefer Odom to Harrington any day of the week. Odom shows laziness in the offseason, while Harrington shows laziness on the floor. I thought we already picked up a chucker in Mullens, and we want another one. Where is the balance in our front court?

I'm high on Ivan like I was high on O'neal before he was signed, but don't think he will be picked up.


TheDude
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I think there's a good chance that Odom is done in the NBA. He refuses to play for any team outside of L.A. except maybe the Heat. If none of these three teams sign him in the summer, I think he has a very slim chance of getting picked up midseason. Precisely because of what you guys are talking about, his atrocious lack of preparation. Most guys who don't get signed will work out religiously while awaiting the phone call. Lamar can't even get in shape when he's making 8mil per year. I have a hard time believing that he will be shape in January if/when the Clips or Lakers get some injuries and need to sign a guy.

He's just as famous for being a fat ass as he is for anything else. Could be curtains for Lamar.


CP3Heliflopter
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I beg to differ. The Heat and Spurs relied heavily on their bench and both teams were nba finalists last season. There really isn't anything to suggest this myth that I constantly hear.

The true issue with our team last season was that several of our bench players were actually better than our starters. We had a below average starting SG and SF. Our starting C played around 24 minutes. Not to mention we didn't have an offensive or defensive system in place(poor coaching).

In the playoffs BG was injured and we decided to play Billups a crap load of minutes even though he sucked. Not only were our bigs abused defensively but so were our perimeter players. It was pretty clear there was not much of a game plan on either end of the floor outside of CP3 hero ball which actually somewhat worked. The problem was we couldn't get any stops and we had the worst defensive rating out of all playoff teams.


namzug
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I think the myth of not relying on your bench is really due to not relying on all 15 players. Most teams don't bring out the last two or three guys out at all unless injuries occur. If there is a favorable match up you might see some players come out. I don't remember seeing too much of Rashard Lewis or James Jones during the playoffs for the Heat, or Richard Jefferson for the Warriors or too much of Blair and Mcgrady for the Spurs. You want to have your best players as well as your best match up against the opposing team in the playoffs.

I think you still need some solid bench players, but you really just need 9 or 10 solid players to rotate in and out including your starters by the playoffs. Byron Mullens might be a guy we have high hopes for now, but might not be in our rotations come playoff time. Depending on his play and matchups and all types of variables, or it could be W. Green or Bullock. We could also find out that Bullock is lights out and we might find ways to get him on the court more by then.

This was one of my problems with Vinny, he never played with his rotations during the season to find out what worked best for the playoffs. Bled and Paul might have been too much for any team in the West to deal with, or playing Odom at the three when playing physical teams to just outnumber the opposing teams big guys, or playing hill a little more to find out what he had (every time he played late in the season he impressed me and never got any consistent burn).


Agent0
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It's not that you "rely" on your bench, but they can't just suck. You generally go with some sort of 8-9 man roster in the post season.

For example, the Clipers right now have: Paul Redick Dudley Griffin Jordan


Crawford Barnes Backup big man X Collison

A set of solid players, what needs to be added to that is solid backup big man X and that's your 9 man playoff rotation. A deep bench usually isn't as valuable in the playoffs, that is going 10-11 deep, it just means you might not have solid enough starters to give a ton of minutes to. Some teams will go 8 man rotation, but for the Clippers it would require having a PG/SG instead of Crawford and no Collison in the rotation, or a SG/SF instead of Barnes or Crawford and one isn't in the main rotation. With the makeup of the team, 9 deep is needed.

Last year I felt the post-season 8-9 man in the post-season should have been: Paul Billups (before suckiness) Butler Griffin Jordan


Crawford Bledsoe Barnes Odom

In hindsight, Green for Billups, or even start Bledsoe and bring Billups off the bench as backup PG.


Flushyriver
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Great point. Though the bench isn't the most significant aspect, it still shouldn't be completely overlooked.

Think Hollins and Turiaf still averaged a combined nearly 20 minutes a game in the postseason last season, but I think the idea that the major postseason roster still involves bench minutes and some, though slighted, bench involvement is still true in most regards.

EDIT: Guess I'm overlooking that Blake was injured too.


TheDude
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So don't ban me for the suggestion....Beasley just got arrested again for weed. He's going to get waived and stretched. He'd probably play for free if we offered him a roster spot.

Weed capital of America is probably not the best place for a kid who is constantly stoned but I'd personally love it if we sign him. For 1mil minimum salary, if he screws up, we can just release him and it's no big financial loss.

He's a million times more talented than the other guys we're looking at right now..

If he plays like he's capable of, he could be extremely valuable. As far as him being a bad locker room guy and just bad guy in general...His kind of "bad", as in he's a dumbass, I think Doc, CP, Blake, dudley, Barnes, etc. can take care of that kind of bad.

Is there any CTBer who likes this idea?


Flushyriver
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Is he facing suspension or is that not yet said? I would be on board if there was some sort of contract agreement that he had to be clean to get paid (do they have one of those?).

He's always been a good talent with little sculpting. Maybe playing on a good team at this point of his career will mean more to him. Definitely worth the gamble in my opinion. Though it'd look pretty bad in the public's eye if Doc actively shops for him. I think it'd be an unlikely signing.


TheDude
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for sure he'll be suspended but it's just weed so it can't be for a really long time. I think preseason games can count on suspensions but not 100% sure. Even if it's 15 games, not that big of deal. We were never at full strength last season.


TheDude
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Terrell Harris just got suspended for 5 games for weed. probably for Beasley it would be at least 10games since he's had multiple offenses.


Flushyriver
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That's not bad, I know he's hated in Phoenix though. Don't think he'd hold up at PF. Has he ever played at the 4 on defense? Seen him get beat at the 3 and he doesn't look like a very physical defender. I don't know if it'd be all that worthwhile a gamble, but if Doc ever thought about it I wouldn't fight it.


Agent0
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The Dude, you should be banned Wink. Beasley played 4 in Miami, he's just a bad defender at any position and he's bad on offense. Beasley has had enough chances and situations and hasn't produced well, and be makes a decent amount. He was on a playoff team in Miamk, he got the right to shoot in Minnesotta, he was then the second option, he then got a second chance in Phoenix on a developing young team.

Al Harrington for example is a better scorer, more efficient, a more consistent producer, less trouble and defends better. There's just no reason to go get Bealsey.


Silasie
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Don't touch Beasley with a 10 foot barge pole. I have watched quite a bit a TWolves games. It didn't work there, sounds like it didn't work in Phoenix, so why would we want that kind of liability on our team?


TheDude
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LOL I know! But he's so good offensively sometimes. Harrington is safer for sure but Beasley could be better than any of them if he got his head out of his ass at some point.

I'm just thinking he's now screwed himself sooooo badly that 90% of the league won't even consider him, he has the worst reputation in the whole league.

It's so embarrassing to continually get arrested for weed. Most people don't even consider weed a real drug but a millionaire NBA player gets caught numerous times and can't figure out that he just needs to have a whiskey instead for the next few years...

Point being he's just such a screw-up and his options are non-existent....We could probably come to him and offer minimum contract with 2 team options. His last chance to stay in the league. He either pulls it together or he's considered one of the biggest busts in the NBA. He'd be motivated and if he was to get his act together we could keep him on option years for the rest of his prime.

That guy has the tools to be an all star. He's just keeps screwing up. Maybe Doc/CP could teach him how to be a man.


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