Free Agents Ideas for Clippers (P. 82)

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botev1921
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I can't find words to describe how much I laughed when I read this pile of ****! Smile You prefer to have DeAndre "Free Throw" Jordan on your team than LeBron James! Amazing arguments too - built vs bought...I will laugh even more when we have to give DJ something like 15 mil to keep him around next year...all for a guy who had one good season and won't be able to hit a free throw ever! Centers don't win rings nowadays, quality does! Smile Smile Smile

JQuick32
CTB MVP X1
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That "good thing" has failed to get past the second round of the playoffs while LeBron has been to four straight Finals now and won two of them and possibly a third. Anyone seriously trying to argue for DJ over LeBron has lost it and is putting way too much sentimental value on our players.

And the "Built vs. Bought" slogan is a load of crap. There is literally no difference between drafting, trading, or signing players. In order to win, you need to do all three. Enough already.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
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Deron's contracts wasn't given to him at 21 years old, and actually Deron's bigger problem has been his constant ankle injuries more so that his actual basketball ability, the comparison isn't really fair at all.

If Irving doesn't want to be there, then that's a different story, but having the first pick in the draft right now might be a way of convincing him.

Wiggins, Embiid and Parker while I think they can be great are actually not sure fire stars like a Lebron James was, so it might actually be a bad decision for them to do something like that. Why not have Irving AND one of those guys? There's no urgency to trade Kyrie, teams will still want him moving forward, barring any significant injury.

I'm not really going to judge a 19-21 year old based on the games an awfully put together team won. I mean we are all aware of Cleveland's drafting prowess and their roster building blunders so far, right?

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
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No point responding in depth to this, but if you actually polled, you'd find quite the opposite conclusion. Jamal was a free agent and Vinny Del Negro convinced him to come here for the MLE. The facts are that he was a free agent 2 seasons ago and Portland wanted no part of him, and teams weren't lining up to sign him, which doesn't line up with him being a player who would start on any NBA team according to your conclusion.

The facts are that he's come off the bench as much as he's started, and no, despite your made up reasoning, it hasn't been because he's "wanted to". If he was a player you definitely start, then Doc wouldn't have bothered spending $6-7M to get J.J. Redick to be the starter.

The fact is that he's never made an All-Star team despite you calling him an All-Star for some reason. The fact is that taking out his first 3 seasons, he's averaged 20+ pts once, but I'll say twice because he had a 19.7 PPG season. The fact is that taking out his first three seasons (I'm doing this to be generous) and to accommodate for his lower minutes, he still only has a career per 36 of 18.4 PPG / 2.8 RPG / 4.1 APG / 2.3 TPG which doesn't get you All-Star appearances. He still has only averaged 20+ pts/36 in 3/11 of those seasons. So that all seems very counter intuitive to your conclusion that he's a diamond in the rough that you don't trade for better two way players or just straight up better players, but hey, I'm the one that's on my own, but those are the facts about him, conclude what you want. Now, I'll give him props that he's scored at a higher rate the past couple of seasons and been more efficient since he turned 28.

GM's know what he can and can't do, those guys are more sought after and therefore are also getting larger and more lucrative deals for a reason, but sure, Jamal is a freak of nature space jam man that should never be traded except for if you're getting Lebron James.

Let's just remember, these are his 3 series' in LAC:

Vs Mem: 10.8 pts, 2.0 rebs, 1.7 asts, 38.7% FG, 27.3% 3PT, .486 TS%

Vs GSW: 16.7 pts, 1.3 rebs, 1.9 asts, 44.2% FG, 37.8% 3PT, .598 TS%

Vs OKC: 14.2 pts, 1.7 rebs, 2.2 asts, 35.3% FG, 29.4% 3PT, .460 TS%

1/3 chance of a good series vs a terrible one isn't bad I suppose, but that's the objective, factual information, you make whatever space jam, freak of nature conclusions you want to out of that. I don't even understand this weird Jamal Crawford following we have amongst Clipper fans, so odd.

Dunkathon
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1053
votes: 7

Ahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah, playing at the professional level totally makes you qualified to decide a player's value. Just look at Joe Dumars and Isaiah Thomas.

People like you are how teams like the Knicks are made.

clippers32
Posts: 67
votes: 0

Yet the Knicks franchise has 2 championships and many conference titles. hahaha. Grow up son. Stay on topic. Stick to your lame opinions that aren't facts. Actually study the game and the business of the game. Then you won't embarrass yourself making comments like get rid of DJ and Jamal Crawford for nothing. You sir are one fan we can do without. We want to move forward, not backwards. Like i said. I'm glad you don't run the team. Enough said. I'm done.

JQuick32
CTB MVP X1
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In fairness, the Knicks have been the joke of the NBA for over a decade and haven't won anything of note since the '70s. They are the Maple Leafs of basketball.

BTW, the irrational love people on here have for Jamal is the same as Laker fans' blind devotion to Kobrick. Chuck enough bad shots every game and some will go in, and it will look cool when it happens. Some people are just blinded by flashy play without stopping to think of the poor basketball IQ at work - not to mention Jamal's lack of skills beyond volume scoring. At the end of the day, Jamal is just a regular season player and definitely not someone who should be dominating the usage percentage in the playoffs on a contender. Jamal's a nice guy, but I would gladly trade him for smarter players who have more skills and higher BBIQ.

Dunkathon
Clipper All-Star
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Someone who lies about playing in the NBA to try and sound more authoritative tries to say I'm a bad fan?

No comment.

namzug
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1042
Location: So Cal
votes: 10

Did I miss something? Are we talking about the same Jamal?

No offense dude, but you are talking about Jamal as if it were CP3. If any GM could trade Jamal straight up for any of the guys Agent0 mentioned they would and the GM getting Jamal would get fired for it.

Jamal is a great offensive player, who does some stuff that only he could do. Reggie Evans is a rebounding machine that could get rebounds only he could get. That does make their production on the overall outcome of a game, series, or season irreplaceable. Jamal is just like a prime Antawn Jamison.

Hey so is this Smush Parker? lMAO

jarca
CTB MVP X2
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What is up with the new board?

clippers32
Posts: 67
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So apparently someone i see can't read. Never said i played in the NBA. Said i played on a professional level. Drew League, D-League, over seas. You do know what professional right? I state facts. All of you guys just state opinions. And the facts say, Jamal leads records in the NBA, yes at 34 then any other player in the league. Stop stating opinions, give me facts! I can care less what you guys think or have to say. Jamal Crawford is a beast. And getting better. He is the spark of the Clippers bench right now. And ohhh yea, not to mention. ..also our leading scorer. Wake up. If a GM makes the mistake of trading fire power off your bench then you suffer from it. Example....OKC. No more Harden equals no more bench for them. There starters suffer due to over playing because they have no one to look to. You trade Jamal, and that's what we become. If you guys are to blind to see that, then I can't help you. Smh. #sogladyouarenotrunningtheteam

clipper*joe
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Stop stating opinions, give me facts. Crawford is not the leading scorer, BG is. I can care less about what professional level you played in, if it's not the NBA, who cares. Still, that doesn't make you an expert at anything but playing at a lower professional level.

By the way, you say you don't care about our opinions or what we think yet in your very last sentence, seems like you do.

clippers32
Posts: 67
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Sorry boss. You have the wrong person for that. Never said i was an expert either. That's strike two. I'm a huge Clippers fan like anybody else on here. Been a clippers fan since probably before you were thought of. Go and find some female to nag and create fights with. You clearly have no base or ground on your argument. But its ok...lol..lol....you are human. Its ok to be wrong. Lol....im not gonna go on with u. At the end of the day, DJ and Jamal Crawford stays. Only way they get moved like i said before is for a mega trade worth something big. Not for the guys or names you mentioned. Stop bickering, grow up, and enjoy the moves the organization does make.

ClipTakeover
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Some serious Jamal nut-hugging right here. First, you don't need to start throwing out personal threats in your argument. Second, Jamal is a great player, but nothing like how you say he is. You describe him as if he is a basketball God sent down from the heavens. Jamal should be traded if a good opportunity presents itself because, believe it or not, it isn't about having a great player on a team but it is about having a player who fits well into the team's style of play. Jamal is a pure scorer, and we already have the best offense in the league. That being said, it really would not hurt us if we traded him away as we are not giving him up for free like an old piece of sofa.

Dunkathon
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1053
votes: 7

Oh, you have even less experience than you originally claimed to have. That's nice.

Also, I thought you said you were done with me? lol

(BTW, using hashtags only makes you sound dumber. Just a helpful hint).

ClipperKyle32
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As much as I love him , I am willing to part with Jamal , ONLY IF IT IMPROVES OUR TEAM. Say It's Jamal,Dudley,Bullock and our 28th pick for Carmelo Anthony and Iman Shumpert in a sign and trade. I am not stuck to any players that are not named Blake Griffin or Chris Paul and possibly DJ , I need to see one more year from him. As I watch these NBA Finals. These two teams and most teams have 3 Players. Most Championship teams have 3 guys. Currently the Clippers only have 2 guys:Blake Griffin and Chris Paul. If trading Redick,Barnes,Jamal,Dudley, etc. makes us better than those will be the necessary measures to be taken. DO NOT GET ME WRONG , I LOVE JAMAL. Spurs have Duncan,Parker,Ginobli. Miami has LeBron, Wade,Bosh. Clippers have Paul,Griffin,????. I like contributors, I like those guys who can always knock down the shots that are WIDE OPEN. I'd rather have a team of consistent shooters around STARs.

Look at the Spurs. Parker, Duncan. Around them they have STRONG contributors in Green,Leonard,Mills,Belinellli,Bonner,Diaw.

Even Miami. LeBron, Wade, Bosh. Around them they have CHalmers, Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, CHris ANderson, etc

I'd like for the Clippers to have more of a system , but once a system breaks down you need an ISO player. look Spurs Parker and Ginobli can break down the D. A player like Melo could be that third guy. I would rather have a team full of WIllie Green type players lol.

MY point is the Clippers lack that 3rd guy.A 3rd guy is that consistent scorer that could drop 25+ on any given night. Is it Jamal? Is it DJ? Will it be someone added via Free Agency. Jamal doesn't understand yet that if you keep chunking shots will not get you out of a slump. I want players that when their shots aren't falling they get steals,rebounds,and assist.

All I am saying is that I am not stuck to any Clipper that isn't named Blake or Chris.

I hope you see where I am coming from.

ClipTakeover
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You hit the nail on the head and most Clippers fans, including myself, feel this way about Jamal specifically. I see what you are saying in the rest of your post as well, and I couldn't agree more. Teams with 3 "stars" seem to succeed more often than teams with less than 3 as long as they have good role players.

Icecoldclipper
CTB MVP X2
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Sure don't remember all this Jamal hate when he was winning games with his scoring. This team relies on a scoring third option because of the passive nature of Paul and Blake. You can't take Jamal being aggressive solely on him when Blake and Paul are on the floor with him looking to get home the ball.

namzug
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I don't think it's hate, just being realistic in what we have in Jamal. He's a dynamic offensive player that is a liability on defense ;and can shoot you out of games as well as save your rear in others. He's on the wrong end of 30 and with JJ he is something we have a lot of (offense). No one here is saying Jamal sucks. Just next time we play a team with more than one good offensive perimeter player it would be nice if one of our 2 guards could help CP3 play some D as well as our SF. Which all the guys Agent 0 mentioned would have been better suited on that end over Jamal.

The other thing is he just won the sixth man and is at a fair price. If we were going to trade him it would be this season. It would have been better if he would have had a great series against Okc, but regardless his trade value isn't going much higher.

@Agent0, I like Wes for the min. I think he could be a low risk high reward type player. He can rebound, defend and on some nights he can shoot. He would be cheaper then Aminu and could serve as some solid depth and possibly more depending on what we do there.

Still hoping we trade JJ or Jamal to upgrade the wing or get a solid back up big. I also want us to get Sefolosha and am hoping we stay away from Bradley.

clippers32
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Thank You! Finally someone with some sense! Well said...

clippers32
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So tell me this. Averaging 18.6 Points, 2.5 Rebounds, 3.7 Assist, 2.5 Steals, and......shall i continue? That to me doesn't sound like just offense. Jamal is an all around player. He gets guys involved as well as score. Can his defensive be alittle better, of course. But give the guy credit. He killing the stat board at 34 then most young guys in the league now. Like i keep trying to tell you and "agent 0" i state facts, not opinions. And facts are, Jamal Crawford is very valuable to the Clippers. If u trade him, like we keep trying to tell you guys, you trade him for the big fish! Not Aaron Afflalo or Chandler Parsons. Come on now dude. Your smarter than that. This guys averaged these numbers in a 82 game season! And its not one sided. Its offensive and defensive.

CapsNClips
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Where do you look your stats up at? Jamal didn't average 2.5 steals and he also didn't average 2.5 rebounds and 3.7 assists.

These are just straight up not true statistics.

clippers32
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Go to the Espn website. See for yourself

CapsNClips
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I did and you're still wrong.

botev1921
Clipper Starter
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0.9 steals, 2.3 rebs, 3.2 assists, 2 TOs

ClipperPostman
Clipper All-Star
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This board has a tenancy to severely undervalue players, while

drastically overvaluing others. Generally we overvalue guys who

are not on our team and undervalue the players we do have.

Prime example when Doc passed on Bynum, he was an "idiot",

and horrible GM. (I have the threads to prove it). Bynum didn't

play more than 2 games for the Pacers.

We under value DJ and Jamal.

Some guys think you can just replace Jamal with any decent

scoring 2 guard off the bench.

Some feel you can replace DJ with another big who can play

"Solid defense" and grab "some rebounds".

This board doesn't even consider "Team Chemistry", "Style of play"

into most equations.

DJ's athleticism is part of the teams Identity.

We are the 3rd best team in the west, 4th best team in the NBA.

All with a new head coach and system.

We were a foul call here, a made bucket there, away from a

Conference championship.

Doc would have to be an idiot to do what many here suggest and

blow up the team for parts that "might work", when he has sure

fired players that do work.

Not to mention JJ was out damn near the entire season.

Jamal missed the entire last part of the season and didn't

come back until the playoffs.

Granger already coming to the team late in the season

missed the enter end of the season (where he was suppose to

get his rhythm back.)

In spite of all this we still did REALLY well.

You add a few pieces Athletic SF

and a decent back up C

and we are in the WCF.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
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Has nothing to do with hating, the "hate" which is only a balancing of the guy's actual value / ability is only coming in response to the guy who thinks Jamal Crawford is as valuable as Lebron James and guys like CP3, but he only got a $5M contract because he wanted to and only comes off the bench because he's the one that personally decided that he should.

Talk about being delusional. I for one know that I've had the same opinion about Jamal whether he's playing well or poorly, we've had 14 years to know what kind of player he is, there really aren't any surprises anymore with him.

Also this idea that if not for Jamal, what would happen, where would the team go is just not true. I actually agree, we need a 3rd shot creator, but it isn't as hard to find depending on the position you want it in as you might think. People throw around the word "passive" too much. That "passive" Blake didn't take less than 19 FGA in the last 4 games vs OKC. The "passive" Paul didn't take less than 16 FGA. They averaged 20.3 FGA and 18.3 FGA respectively over the last 4 games of that series. The problem with some of the subjective opinions of passivity is that for too many people it basically means said player is not doing what I want them to do right now or not making as many shots as I want them to right now, therefore they are being passive.

There's no checks and balances. There's passivity that everyone can see (McGrady in Houston that one time, though that was more just checking out), then there's passivity where you better give a much better argument than "because I said so" to hold true.

Jamal had a good game 1, then Jamal shot 32.4% FG, 25.0% 3PT, ,424 TS% and averaged 13.6 PPG on 14.8 FGA for the last 5 games in 25 MPG. Now, the ability to create is great, but it is only valuable when you know, you either make shots, or you create at a high level for others (2.4 APG =/= that), or both.

...but that is Jamal, everyone knows this. That's why he's not a superstar, if he doesn't score, he doesn't do anything else at a high level. He's very streaky, which is why for the first 20 games of the season, he avergaed 15.8 PPG on 12.8 FGA and shot 44.9% FG and 37.0% 3PT, but them for the 20 games between December and mid-January he averaged 17.7 PPG on 16.4 FGA and shot 36.4% FG / 33.3% 3PT, then lastly, for the last 29 games of the season, he averaged 21.1 PPG on 14.8 FGA and shot 43.7% FG / 37.6% 3PT. That's Jamal, and in a playoff series, you don't know which one you'll get (GSW series vs OKC series)

The problem is that scoring is his game, and he doesn't have anything else he does at a high level consistently (passing, defense). For example, if Jamal was a guy who if you started, he would average 6-7 APG, then even when he's shooting terribly, he'll bring you high level playmaking and that helps your offense. If Jamal was high level perimeter defender, then even when he's shooting poorly, he can limit the opposition to a similar level (maybe). Jamal on the other hand only scores at decently high level, which means when he's not scoring, he gives little other positive value, and when he's shooting poorly for extended periods, he keeps shooting the same shots, he ends up hurting more than he helps.

ALL GM's know this! That's why instead of being an $8-9M dollar player and being sough after highly, he's making the MLE. That's why 35 year old Ginobili got a bigger contract than him. That's why when he was a FA, he was not as highly sought after, both post-Atlanta and post-Portland as maybe he would want, or his isolation abilities would imply. That's why two seasons in a row, two different coaches have decided to play him 13 and 14 minutes respectively in the clinching game.

  • clippers32: Go to the Espn website. See for yourself

I suppose if you actually believe he averaged 2.5 steals (which would make him tied with Paul for SPG leader), etc, I can understand some part of why your opinions of him are exaggerated. Of course this would be remedied by watching some games and wondering when in the world the guys is getting almost 3 steals a game.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
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You should write in paragraphs man, the way you post is kind of weird to follow reading wise.

It goes both ways though. Some players are over-valued, some under. DJ I believe is valued quite right, again like I said, us retaining him is going to be as much a financial decision and how high the coaching staff believes his impact will get to. I really like DJ, so he's not some guy I would move.

Jamal on the other hand falls into the category of guys who get over-valued for their impact due to the ability to score in isolation. It happens all the time. Jamal has actually improved a lot in his efficiency as a player, but there's this false aura that a team can't replace his offensive production (not specific skills), and that just is not true and there's a lot that backs that up. Jamal has this weird Clipper fan following that consider him some untouchable player, and no matter how poorly he shoots or how little he does to help outside of scoring, it's okay because "if he didn't shoot, who would".

ClipSince7thGrade
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I know this is off topic of what everyone is talking about right now (my two cents is that Jamal Crawford is irreplaceable, his defensive play is an issue but it has gotten better under Doc Rivers so has his ball movement. I think that getting rid of Crawford would be a huge mistake and we'd take a big hit with chemistry. Not saying that a Jamal trade isn't going to happen because I can see it happening, I'm just saying that it would be a huge mistake) but it looks like Ty and Gentry may be gone next season. While I'd like to keep both, I've come up with a couple replacement ideas. Not sure how realistic these options are but I'll list them any ways. I think that we should grab two of three of these guys.

Mark Jackson

Lionel Hollins

Vinny Del Negro

I don't care what anyone says VDN was a great coach and we'd really benefit from having him on the bench in a lesser roll. The only thing that I'd be concerned about is DJ's confidence getting shaken. Lionel Hollins would instill even more defense in our team which you honestly can never get enough of. Then having Mark Jackson as an assistant would be great if we lose Gentry, great offensive schemes to get wings free. What do you think?

In your guys opinion who would you like to replace Ty and Gentry if they were to leave?

laboy
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 115
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i don't think they would work..

fisher just signed on in new york..

we need one or two former players ...give them a chance..

maybe the dream???

Kareem...or another big man as a coach...

to help dj and the rookie center that we are getting..

ClipSince7thGrade
Clipper Starter
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I love the idea of Kareem, think he'd be great for our big guys. I like the idea of giving former players a coaching job especially in a lesser role.

ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
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If we can't get Aaron Gordon we should give Taylor Griffin a summer league/camp invite. I like the guy. Griffin and Griffin and DJ - Smash Brothers. I would love to hear a lot of Ralph Lawler Griffin TO GRIFFIN FOR THE SLAM...

About 6'8 and about 240! Could Be A Small Forward. Has A Nice J.

JQuick32
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Are you sure you're describing the right player? In the playoffs this year alone, Jamal led us in usage rate despite shooting under 40% from the floor. He took 80 shots to 102 passes through the first five games - in other words, he was a black hole. Not only does he NOT actually get other players involved, he also doesn't rebound or defend. When his chucking and fancy dribble moves don't work against playoff defenses, he is the most useless player on the court.

Steals mean very little in regard to actual defense. It's fairly easy for guards to stat-pad steals in the regular season just because you play a lot of bad teams who don't protect the ball and the good teams aren't hyperfocused on maximizing every possession like they are in the playoffs. He is terrible at every meaningful facet of defense and at his age, he isn't getting any better.

Real contenders don't waste minutes on players like Jamal. His style is strictly for treadmill teams in the regular season only.

JQuick32
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The opposite is true. Most people seem to severely overrate our roster for sentimental reasons even though we have yet to get past the second round and we have too many regular-season-only players (CP3, Jamal, DJ come to mind). People are actually saying they wouldn't trade DJ for LeBron, LOL.

JQuick32
CTB MVP X1
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The team's identity is "second-round losers, WCF virgins" and a large part of that is due to regular-season players like DJ. If you're happy with that, fair enough, but not everybody is content with that brand of faux-success and realize that big changes need to be made.

clippers32
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How can you overrate facts? Please explain that to me. ClippersPostman said it best. Exactly what I've been saying in this tread. The numbers don't lie. DJ is underrated. Jamal is underrated. How can some of you really form your lips to say that you would get rid of DJ and Jamal for a less of a player? THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! Like i repetitively keep saying....You find me another big man or center on the league, free agency, or wherever, that runs the floor and jumps and defend like DJ. Find me one. And maybe ill side with you. But there isn't one! You find me another two - time 6th man of the year, 4 point playmaker, scoring leader and vetern at the age of 34 and maybe ill side with you. But you won't find one! Not to mention an easy starter on any NBA team but embraces the role of coming off the bench. You name me another guy that says they want to come off the bench and takes pride and joy in it. You won't find another! That felles is the motivation and brilliance of Doc Rivers. DJ and Jamal are core guys. There value to me is right there with Blake and CP3. You keep the chemistry. Don't destroy it. We are one good SF and a bad call away from the WCF and possibly the Finals, because i believe we could of beat the Spurs. The core guys of....CP3, JJ, DJ, Blake, Jamal in my opinion are untouchable. You can fill out the roster with the rest. I do like Collison, but he's looking for a payday. I do like Granger and Big Baby, but they are looking for a payday. I think Pierce at SF with Barnes coming off the bench is the only change we need. Let the others leave if they want. There are good backup PG's, PF's, and Centers a dime a dozen you can find to fill out your roster in free agency.

JQuick32
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clippers32 wrote:
DJ is underrated. Jamal is underrated.

Sorry, but DJ is heavily overrated defensively (still constantly out of position, gets worked by any center with fundamentals and/or a jump shot), has no offensive game, is atrocious at the free throw line, and vanishes in the playoffs unless the other team is missing their starting center. Jamal is a garden-variety no defense chucker. Sure, he has his quirks with the crossover and four-point plays, but at the end of the day, Jamal Crawfords are a dime a dozen throughout NBA history and are usually a detriment to winning if left unchecked.

Quote:
You name me another guy that says they want to come off the bench and takes pride and joy in it. You won't find another!

Manu Ginobili.

JQuick32
CTB MVP X1
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DJ and Jamal are "core guys" if you're only interested in treadmilling and second-round exits. They aren't even close to core guys on championship teams. Neither one would get very many minutes on the Spurs, for example.

JQuick32
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LOL, ridiculous. We've tried relying on old broken-down vets for three years now and it's resulted in failure. A 36-year-old Paul Pierce is not the sole difference between a second-round exit and beating OKC.

Not to mention, that series was choked away by our so-called "star" CP3 (with help from the "underrated" Jamal).... shuffling around fossils on the bench isn't going to change the result.

Agent0
CTB MVP X1
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Why would VDN come back though? Hey we didn't re-sign you as our head coach last season, but do you want to come back and be the assistant to the guy we replaced you with?

ClippersPostman, JQuick for example has a highly negative view of Jamal. Now, I don't think Jamal is some atrocious player that no championship team would / should play, BUT, I think Jamal is best as a bench SG paired next to a defensive SG with a solid 3PT shot, and also on a team that has a PG who is a floor general / playmaker off the bench.

So if you had Tony Allen / Jamal Crawford, the combo makes sense, though Allen isn't a shooter. With Redick, Jamal is not the best on court compliment. Jamal also tends to make you need a bench PG that can allow Jamal to go iso, but also get you into an offense and create for others. That's why despite accolades, and disregarding defense, just talking about offense, Ginobili is a far superior player, and of course then, 6th man. Why? Ginobili plays two roles, Ginobili can be both your primary scorer off the bench and a PG / high level shot creator.

Ginobili might not isolate as much, he'll use more picks, he'll just use straight line drives, but he'll scores as much on better efficiency and he's also create q good amount of quality shots.

So with Ginobili, you don't need a PG that can create off the bench. Despite the flashes of playmaking Jamal shows, 14 seasons says that you need another guy to handle the playmaking on the floor with Jamal because he will tend to play as a one man offense, and you need someone to restrain him as well as get others involved. That's just talking about offense.

...and this again is why last season in game 6 vs Memphis, and again his season in game 6 vs OKC, both VDN and Doc, two different coaches had the same conclusion. If Jamal isn't shooting / scoring well, he isn't going to do enough of us to even play him 15 minutes. That's a telling sign, and of course destroys any idea of him being at anything more than a just below All-Star level. The best of players get left on the floor because you believe that if they don't produce in one thing, they will in other areas. Jamal has not been given that luxury in the most critical moments in 2/3 series'.

So either both coaches are idiots, or it is a clear real world picture of here is the player, here's what he does great, but also here are his limitations and here's how far they can help your team.

ClipperKyle32
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Repped High Quality Post

I wish you would stop acting like a player here or there determines what round a team will exit. HELL! Look at those LeBron Cavs that made the Finals. One Of The Worst Teams To Make the Finals in History. Okay yea you would make the excuse they had LeBron... Well No! LeBron can't score 88-100+ points by himself. It takes a team. That Team in Cleveland was determined and fought to be in the Finals. They DID IT AS A TEAM!

So Yes Chris was a huge reason we lost game 5 , but what about the bad fouls DJ had, bad shots Jamal took going 7-22, Barnes 4 turnovers, DJ having 0 points , Darren Collison having 1 point.

What If Chris got an actual shot off at the end of the game and it goes in and we win it. What if DJ connects on ONE lob, Jamal makes that layup that just rolls off, Collison makes one shot, Barnes and Blake has one less turnover. What if CHRIS LETS WESTBRICK SHOOT A BS SHOT WITHOUT FOULING.

Look at the Finals last season. 5 players who made some of the biggest contributions were not the "stars" : Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen, Gary Neal, Danny Green. Not to mention Ray Allens HUGE 3 when their Clutch STAR -- LEBRON JAMES could not hit his 3 and turned it over 3 times in the closing minutes.

You Win As A Team, and You Lose As A Team. When A Team Loses the Blame should be distributed to all players and coaches , but I do not believe the blame should be divided equally because some players are more responsible for losses , but ultimately everyone is to blame , but people fail to realize that.

itsLuigi
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repped.

clippers32
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Manu Ginobli is no where near the skill set of Jamal Crawford. Yes he's a better defender, but...dribbling, shooting, passing, etc. Not Close. He's good, but not Crawford good. You guys undervalue Jamal WAY TO MUCH!

cashdld
Clipper Starter
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Are you serious, so your telling me crawford is a better overall player than manu ginobli. You must be just a jamal crawford fan boy, who is wowed by crossovers and chucking a bunch of shot. don't get me wrong when crawford is hot he's hot but when he's not he's Really not. Outside of crawfords handles which helps him gets his shot ginobli is a better shooter, passer, and although he doesn't have epic crossover he takes care of the ball. Your seriously over valuing this guy.

slestack11
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Didn't Crawford with the 6th man of the year? Ginobili comes off the bench for the Spurs. Plus, Crawford is younger.

Agent0
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Okay, this has to be trolling. I guess it was fun while it lasted. I suppose it was kind of obvious when you started talking about Jamal being a record holder with inconsequential things like 4 point plays. Of course Jamai also isn't a better passer than Manu, and Manu has consistently shot better from 3PT range and has been a more efficient scorer, not to mention a high rate scorer most years of their careers (though not this season).

You got us! Nice one!

Agent0
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6th man of the year doesn't mean Crawford is the best bench player in the league, usually it means he played the most minutes and had the best raw stats off the bench, but he was productive, don't get it twisted. In comparison to Manu, he just played more regular season MPG. Thing is that in the playoffs, Manu goes up to 25+ MPG while Jamal goes down to 24.1 MPG and 26.8 MPG last season. Actually the last 3 playoffs before this, Manu has averaged 28.1 MPG, this year he's at 25.2 MPG. So in the playoffs, when it matters most, Manu is the one that is seeing the floor more and for a plethora of reasons. So yes, Jamal will win the regular season award over him because he played 30.3 MPG during the regular season to Manu's 22.8 MPG, but don't be fooled into thinking that means he was better or was more productive or valuable when on the floor.

per 36 regular season:

Ginobili:

19.5 pts / 4.7 rebs / 6.8 asts / 1.6 stl / .590 TS% / 20.0 PER

Crawford:

22.0 pts / 2.7 rebs / 3.8 asts / 1.0 stl / .556 TS% / 17.3 PER

per 36 playoffs:

Ginobili:

21.0 pts / 4.8 rebs / 6.3 asts / 2.5 stl / .584 TS% / 21.5 PER

Crawford:

23.2 pts / 2.2 rebs / 3.0 ast / 1.4 st; / .531 TS% / 16.8 PER

You can find any metric you want, and ALL support Ginobili being a better and more impactful player on both sides of the ball. We're not talking about who we're going to build a team around, that would be neither of course, so who is older or younger means little. Last season was Ginobili's worst productive playoffs since like 02-03 and he had a .530 TS%, 16.5 PER and 16/5/7 per 36. This year was Jamal's BEST and basically in the end he was the same in production with Manu's least productive playoffs in like 10 seasons. Kind of tells you the different levels of each player.

Agent0
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Another guy we could look at for backup PG is Brian Roberts from the Pelicans. He can shoot and pass and is a fairly decent scorer too, but his defense is kinda meh

ClipperKyle32
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I think we need to have a 3rd string point guard that could start for Chris. When Chris goes down that third string PG starts and that bench PG continues off the bench to keep rotations the same. I think the Second String / Bench PG needs to be a defensive type PG , but idk man it complicated lol.

All I am going to say is i do not think Jamal and DC worked good together. There were times where Jamal would be begging for the ball and DC wouldn't give it to him. They both play little D even though Collison played it well sometimes. I still would like to trade for Shumpert if we can. If he comes to the West and isn't on our team that is just another player people will throw on CP3.

I want Deng or Melo, preferably Melo because I believe he is a STAR. And he wants to win. If we have a SF like that , teams could not just put their PG on our Small Forward.

My Ideal Trade, Sign Melo in free agency for relatively cheap, resign Collison or get him to opt in, Trade Collison, Dudley and or Barnes, And our 28th Draft Pick.

After that either have Barnes ( if not traded ) or Paul Pierce come off the bench. Sign a guy like Hill and Kaman or a defensive big so we will not lose shot blocking , length and athleticism when DJ comes out.

1.) Choice is to get Granger to Opt In and get Healthy and in rhythm for a full season. He could be our SF that we all though he was a great rebounder and always put a body on someone, got steals and got blocks. Sadly I didn't see enough of him on KD as I thought.

  1. Do Trade Above, Get Big Baby to Opt In and draft a rookie C. Hopefully we find a gem like OKC did with Steven Adams

Paul

Reddick

Melo

Griffin

Jordan

Crawford

Shumpert

Pierce/Barnes/Granger

Big Baby

Drafted C or Free Agency C

I LOVE IT LOL

DOC Rivers may have a man crush on Gordon Hayward , but mine is on Blake Griffin. And since we have him it now moves to Iman Shumpert. I wish that trade for DC to Knicks for Shumpert and Felton would have went through before dumbass Sterling nixed it. I think Felton is a decent backup for CP, could start if we go down. Maybe we resign DC or get him to opt in and still pull it off

cleepers
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I actually thought Collison did a good job. He was just forced into playing too much off guard because we had no defense at the position. I'd have him back in a heartbeat if he'd play for the same salary, but I doubt he will. However, somebody who may - and is pretty much a like-for-like swap - is Jerryd Bayless. Could be worth Doc's while to reach out to him.

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