Free Agents Ideas for Clippers (P. 96)

Clippers TopBuzz Forum/Message Board » Clippers News & General Discussions
Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Search This Topic:
 
clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135
CapsNClips wrote:
I personally don't care if we have a backup PG that can run this team if CP goes down because if CP goes down in the playoffs it won't really matter who the PG is, we're not going to advance. I'd much rather have a PG who's suited for the backup spot perfectly and is a good role player for a championship team. That's what we need, not a PG who can dominate in the regular season if our Point God goes down. Darren Collison was both, but as a backup I think I might give the edge to Farmar.....

Please log in to view the entire post.


clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4969
votes: 38

^^^ I agree with CJ. CP3's health is anything but reliable and to be honest Farmar is more of a shooter than a passer and great ball handler. That's part of what got him out of the league and his defense is very mediocre.

I just don't understand why we were so anxious to lock him down when there probably wasn't one other team seriously looking at him. He probably should have been signed for the min. Especially with his poor me I want to play for the lakers attitude.


inventor310
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 208
votes: 0

Jordan Farmar has a very high basketball IQ. Plus he's played on a championship contending team he is a great addition to this team DC is a better player but Farmar will not hurt you. I know a few diehard laker fans and they all talk about how underrated he is. Good signing in my opinion plus to add the icing on the cake he took a hometown discount


inventor310
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 208
votes: 0

There's a lot of bitching coming from you so called Clippers Fans. Lots of you cried about Jamal Crawford signing with us years back and now he's the 6thMOTY lots of you whinned about trading DJ and he's improved every year.. So what I'm trying to say is you Fans just stay fans and support the movement and allow our FO to do what they do best. Stop giving DOC so much crap as if his job is so freaking easy and we have so much room to work with.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

You're right, when he spends more time on the bench hurt, it's almost impossible to hurt you. he took a hometown discount? What did he make last season? How much more were other teams offering that he turned down to give us a discount? I'm not following you.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

there are a lot of you hyping up a player that has been a career backup who was out of the league already with basically no interest from the NBA as an upgrade, lateral move, better for the team than Collision was. My gripe is with you guys trying spread the farmar hype so thick it's actually lowering our intellect to a lakers' fan base. He's a downgrade at that position and his injury history doesn't help.

I'll eventually buy in but for god's sake, stop trying to feed us how great and refreshing Farmar is to come out and say he accepts his role as backup as great sacrifice to his game. that's laughable. That's what he's always been. he's not a starter coming here sacrificing for this team. he came from a bottom dweller after a stint in Turkey.


itsLuigi
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1003

us.gif
votes: 3

didn't farmar turn down like a 7 mil deal from turkey?


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Yeah, he did. I'm sure Turkey TV had non-stop coverage on their sports channel with headers reading...."I'm coming home" like Lebron had here too. Turning down 7 million overseas is like a Arena football QB turning that down that type of money to come play for the texans as a backup. Doesn't mean anything cause it's not the Pros. Anyway, he didn't do it for us, he did it for the Lakers. We had to pay more than the Lakers did. So in essence, he gave the Lakers a discount but we overpaid based on no other team having interest in him at the time.


pageC4
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4793

us.gif
votes: 24

There's an old saying "never play an ace if a 2 will do." We didn't follow that philosophy with Jordan Farmar. He wasn't exactly getting many calls from other clubs, and we signed him for more when most likely the vet min could have secured him.

When you look at Basketball-Reference Farmar is just a slight step behind Collison in just about every category except 3 point shooting when evaluating PER 36. I didn't understand this signing because we essentially replaced Collison with a slightly worse statistical version of himself (albeit not a huge dropoff). Our offense wasn't the area we needed help on, and with Hawes already on this roster it seemed as redundant bringing in a guard whose specialty is the 3 point shot.

If Doc wanted to bring in specialists he should have gone with defensive specialists, not shooters. I have to say that these acquisitions essentially are lateral moves as CJ said.


realbull17
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2763

us.gif
votes: 6

Well it's looking like Deng to Miami. Trevor to Houston. It's not a done deal but looking more & more likely. We'll know more as the day goes on.


realbull17
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2763

us.gif
votes: 6

C.Anthony is staying with the Knicks.


tense2
CTB MVP X3
Posts: 11252
votes: 24

Took the money over a real good shot of going deep in the EC playoffs. Was a hella of lot to leave on the table though.

Edit: maybe not that much now as he seems to be taking less then the max. How much?...I guess we'll find out soon enough.


Agent0
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 6602
votes: 58

Why are we making it seem like Collison was amazing in the playoffs? He shot terribly from 3PT and under 40% FG, but he did draw fouls.

Everyone likes to look at SA, but they are quite special, and we should look at them correctly. When Parker is out, Ginobili and Diaw are high level facilitators and handle the load, not their PG's. Patty Mills averaged 3.5 assists/36 last season, 3.4 assists/36 in the playoffs. They used him primarily as a shooter/scorer, not a facilitator.

In the end Parker played 31.3 mpg and 23/23 play of games. He missed the second half of game 6 vs OKC and their success was irrespective of PG play. Mills was 0/1 in 18 minutes. Diaw is the one that dropped 26 on OKC.

In addition, their system and how their players fit to their system is part of their success. Lastly, unlike the Clippers, SA wins series' on offense and defense, they just don't try to kill you with offense only and hope their offense is just better than your offense. No, they look to limit your offense as much as possible and also play good offense. Clippers opponents are generally producing better than their regular season offense and we just attempt to have our offense be even better.

If CP goes out for a whole series with an actual big injury, we're done. Reggie Jackson is as good a backup PG as you can get an OKC had no chance vs Memphis, lost 4-1. I mean come on, let's be serious here. This situation isn't remedied by a good second PG, it's just a loss. If we don't think Chris can stay relatively healthy enough to be effective then we're better off trading him than trying to think some backup PG like Collison will actually fill in. There's a reason we lost to all the upper echelon teams while CP was out.

CP was injured towards the end of the Memphis series in 11-12 and injured vs SA. He was healthy in 12-13, but Blake got injured, so that was that. He was healthy enough this season. So he's 2/3 so far, it's not really as detrimental as it is being made out to be. He was also healthy for the playoffs his last season in New Orleans and West went down before the playoffs.

Also even if both CP and Farmar are injury prone, why would they necessarily get injured at the same time? I don't get the idea that CP could possibly get injured and then Farmar would be out at the exact same time too. Doesn't usually happen that way.

This isn't the signing that is going to determine or limit how well we play. If CP has a legitimate injury where he's out of the playoffs, not hampered, we're done.

Collison has playoff averages of (29 games):

8.7 / 1.9 / 2.9 / 43.2% FG / 31.0% 3PT / .525 TS / 20.7 mpg

Farmar has playoff averages of (69 games):

5.1 / 1.5 / 1.4 / 39.5% FG / 35.7% 3PT / .503 TS / 15.0 mpg

Last season Collison had averages of:

8.5 / 2.1 / 2.4 / 38.9% FG / 8.3% 3PT / .501 TS / 19.2 mpg

In 15 minutes it is a rate of:

6.6 / 1.6 / 1.9

Collison is slightly better, but still, just not looking like Collison vs Farmar playing 15 minutes or less off the bench in the playoffs is going to determine your teams success. Also if no Collison means we see less 2 PG lineups, I'm thrilled, take that extra 5-6 mpg that Collison would be playing over a Farmar and please stick an actual SG on the court.

You guys are worrying way too much about this. What is going to be more important is how well our starting lineup can defend in the 35-36 minutes they are on the court, more so than any slight difference in ability or even health from our backup PG.


dom1
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 196
votes: 2


Repped High Quality Post

Somebody name me one top nba point guard that isn't "injury prone"? Cp3 is probably one of the more healthier pgs. All of them miss multiple games each year. Last yr he had a fluke shoulder injury but prior he was on par with the other great pgs as far as missing time. Curry had ankle problems, Westbrook kness,d rose,d will,k irving,rondo,Bledsoe, t Parker. All them dudes u can count on missing some games a year. So lets not call cp3 injury prone. It could b worse


CapsNClips
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 5064

us.gif
votes: 59

Great point. Never noticed that until now.


ClipperKyle32
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 3322
votes: 27

Not To Mention, Chris is probably the toughest out of all those listed PGs. Plays through ALOT of injuries


CapsNClips
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 5064

us.gif
votes: 59

He's definitely one of the toughest dudes in the NBA.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

I will only address this comment and not read the rest based solely on starting a argument under false pretenses.

No one, I repeat, no one said he played amazing in the playoffs. What I did say is that in one game, excuse me, in one late vital stretch of a 4th qtr, he single-handedly, won a game for us when our offense couldn't score. He proved he was a game changer in the playoffs. Hence why it is important to have a good backup.


JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

As long as we're using one-game sample sizes, Collison choked in Game 1 of the Warriors series.


slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1126
votes: 6

I think Farmar will be just fine as CP3's backup. He is a better three point shooter too. I loved Collison last year, but the amount that the Kings are paying him is just ridiculous.


realbull17
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2763

us.gif
votes: 6

Houston signed Ariza 32mil 4 yr deal.


tense2
CTB MVP X3
Posts: 11252
votes: 24

In today's NBA, what their paying him for his production/Wins Produced is not ridiculous.

What their paying for Melo or Bosh is ridiculous.


JoeClipplet
Clipper Starter
Posts: 251
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
votes: 1

Put your guns away

Bringing up how much a player made, how much others were offering last season doesn't make much sense. It's what you personally can prove as a player. He was coming back to prove his worth, and he had some phenomenal games. With the right system, right motivation (contender), and coaches, he can do great things. Last year was a little flukish, but I understand, using it to make your point

My question, why so much hate for someone who hasn't even been given a chance yet? He's much smarter than Collison, and that pays dividends


JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

You're overhyping a player who has basically been a scrub his entire career except for the years he was teammates with CP3. Dallas couldn't wait to get rid of Collison. There's a reason we got him so cheaply.


slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1126
votes: 6

Maybe the Clippers can add Shawn Marion. Wonder if he would take a vet minimum deal?


JQuick32
Posts: 3385
votes: 13

No way the Mavs let Marion go if they lose out on Parsons.


CapsNClips
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 5064

us.gif
votes: 59

Seeing as how Ariza ended up taking less than he wanted originally, maybe the market is drying up for Free Agents and prices are going down. You never know


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

CP3 choked away a sealed game along our with our chances at a closeout game at home.

DJ never showed up in the second round

Jamal played his usual self in the playoffs

What's your point?


tense2
CTB MVP X3
Posts: 11252
votes: 24

Getting Marion would be good, but I think he definitely gets more then the minimum. His overall numbers were better then the 1 year older Vince Carter got.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

As opposed to our new backup PG who got a good raise from us based on being injured more time than he was healthy? Farmar is a bigger scrub that had to go to Turkey to keep his career alive. And guess what? We're paying him more than we did Collison. Eat them apples and tell me how that tastes.

Here's the funny part:

You yourself just said he played like a scrub except the times he played under CP3. well maybe if we kept him instead of farmar, you wouldn't be calling him a scrub....Since you yourself said it, not me.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Didn't I already tell you this a few days ago and you wanted to argue with me about it? Didn't I tell you that is why we were looking at butler but you said...NOOOOOOOOOOOO! This might just be a backup plan, you said.

I told you Deng or Ariza were going to the Heat and other teams with money would go after the other. Again, I was right.


JoeClipplet
Clipper Starter
Posts: 251
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
votes: 1

Maybe we won't be calling Farmar a scrub when he plays under CP3


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Uhhhh...What?

If you were following the argument loosely, the OP said he took a discount to come here. I am certain that means he's talking about giving up money...No? And if that is the case, didn't HE bring up how much he's getting versus how much he gave up as a hometown discount? If you agree with this premise, we're so far on the same page, correct? OK, I asked him a question about that so-called discount that HE brought up, not me. And if I am inquiring about something he said, how am I pulling out the proverbial guns at him for asking a serious question? Anyway, farmer gave the discount to the team he has ties and vested interested in, not us. That was last season.

Let me ask you a serious question:

How do you measure a players intellect? And how do you make a comparison to see who is the smarter player?


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Maybe I'll change my mind if that happens...Deal?


CapsNClips
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 5064

us.gif
votes: 59

When did this conversation happen? I have no recollection of this happening. Maybe it did, but I surely don't remember it.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Ooops! My bad. That was Jquick. we're straight.


slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1126
votes: 6

It seems like the Clippers are done with offseason moves. Anyone hear anything about Big Baby? Is he talking to anyone about a deal?


tense2
CTB MVP X3
Posts: 11252
votes: 24

Why in the hell would you say that when the off season has just begun. Oy vey.


CapsNClips
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 5064

us.gif
votes: 59

Scared me for second. Thought I was developing amnesia.


Agent0
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 6602
votes: 58

The problem is that it is one game. Even scrubs, and Collison isn't a scrub can have high impact in one game in a critical moment in the playoffs. We can't really hold on to that if a guy is going to play below his averages in the other games though, it's just a bad way of looking at impact.

If the argument is that "well in one game, Collison could get hot and help the team to a win", is it really a good one? Farmar played good minutes on some championship teams and he's actually better now, so it's not like he can't have one really good game in a playoff run, 1/13 games is not a big deal, but he's no more of less consistent than a Collison, neither is going to be the reason you win or lose a playoff series, so I just don't understand what you're so adamant about here unless you just REALLY like Collison, which maybe you did and that's cool, or maybe you just REALLY dislike Farmar for some other reasons.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKimpJvCc

How about when Fisher was suspended vs Houston and Farmar started for Fisher and had 12/5/7, 2 steals, a block and only one turnover in the Lakers win. It's not your intent, but you have to realize that what you're actually arguing that Collison and a BAE big man which based on contracts looks like not such a good player would help this team more than Hawes and Farmar, and I just can't see any support for that. Farmar is hardly a drop off from Collison and Hawes is far superior to any big man we can get for $2M, not to mention he fits and compliments our PF, or C and our PG. Hawes is probably playing 28+ MPG in the playoffs with a 3 big lineup, while a Collison or Farmar is playing like 13 and only more if you play CP at SG , so I'd rather have the better player at the position that's on the court for more minutes and play a SG at SG.

Jordan Farmar had 5 20+ pt games and hit 8 three's in a game last season himself. He played 41 games and scored 15+ in 10/41 games, so 25% of the time, that's not bad.

Collison had 9 20+ pt games in 80 games and 21 15+ pt games out of 80 games, so in terms of scoring outbursts, they are fairly on the same level. Nothing suggests that Farmar can't get hot in a game, actually everything suggests that a guy who can shoot can get hot at least once it twice in the playoffs. He can score 10-13 pts in like 12-13 minutes every now and then, and the rest of the games he'll be meh, just like Collison, and we probably don't have to see him on the court with CP giving is awful mis-matches, seems like a win/win to me.

...or we could just hang on to "maybe / what if Farmar gets injured", that's fine too


slestack11
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1126
votes: 6

Well, we have no cap space for anyone else now and nobody wants to trade for Dudley or Barnes.


tense2
CTB MVP X3
Posts: 11252
votes: 24

Again, off season has just begun. Wait and see what develops before saying no one wants Dudley, Barnes or Crawford. We have 3 1/2 months to go before the whistle blows.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

No, the problem isn't that is just one game. It was a vital game where he took over in the last minutes to seal a victory when none of our starters could generate some offense. Not just any scrub can do that and I'm a little surprised you would say that and not expect to be called on it. Farmar played in the triangle offense where even a guy like Fished thrived. Why you say? Well simply put, the triangle takes the ball away from a PG more than any other offense. You add Kobe to the triangle and the PG spot is the most expendable position in that setting. Color me not impressed. It's not that I really really really (zoolander voice) like Collison, it's that I don't like farmar. I don't like the fact that people were actually impressed by him saying he would embrace being the backup position when that is all he ever was. People actually saying, "you go boy" ( hyperbole) as if it was a big sacrifice for him to say that, while saying he's a upgrade, lateral move, or brings more to the table when that is not the case. Again, Farmar came from a scrub team where numbers get inflated. he didn't stay long enough on the floor to get a better picture and abetter balance of what his true numbers are. He left the league as a legit scrub on a real bad team who couldn't get a job so he left. How is he better now? Stats on a bad team where half the teams played half asleep? On a team where you chucking is required? Yeah, maybe his shooting % was good but he sat out more than he played. Those numbers were bound to get worse just by law of averages.

I'm surprised some people are actually using the, "well, the backup isn't going to win or lose us any games", or the "we ain't advancing without CP3". That's just too dismissive and shortsighted. You build the best team you can and you also get the best possible backup, especially when your PG seems to always be hurt come playoff time. Well maybe the backup won't win or lose games for you alone, but a good backup with give you a fighting chance. A often injured backup doesn't do that but he can surely hurt your depth when it counts. You want to use stats, then also use include the risk factor he brings along with him cause I think that trumps any stat he put this past season on a bottom dwelling team.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Nah man, I would never come at you that way on purpose. You one of the good guys here.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

You know, you're actually helping me make a point about the backup position.

Curry had ankle problems but he had Jarrett jack, went out and got players that can play point...Iggy, Steve Blake, and now Livingston for the MLE. Westbrook has Jackson. D.Rose had Hindrich and Augustin. D.Will had Livingston and now Jarrett jack. Parker has Mills or any other PG cause Pops knows what he's doing. Bledsoe had Dragic and now Thomas. Do you get where I am going with this? what do they have in common? they have good viable backups that can start on their teams. And if they didn't, they sure do now. But hey, we scored on a hometown discount from Jordan farmar. PG back up doesn't mean much? Most teams disagree based on what they're investing and getting as PG alternatives.


Agent0
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 6602
votes: 58

Is there such a thing as a non vital game in the playoffs? Are you sure any scrub can't do that? I don't know man, I don't know, even scrubs have their days.

Will Barton is young, but as of now he's a scrub and in Portland's vital game, the one they needed to not get swept, it was his 17 pts on 13 FG off the bench that helped them. The guy averaged 4/2/1 and played 9.4 mpg in 41 games during the season and played 11.6 mpg in the playoffs. Scrub #1.

Thabo Sefolosha is an offensive scrub, his primary value is defense. Game 2 vs OKC, Thunder don't want to go down 2-0 with home court and Sefolosha gives them 14 pts on 9 FGA in 22 mins as well as 3 steals. Jamal was 2/13. We lost by 11 pts. It wasn't in a barrage, because there's a tendency to value bursts of production over consistent production over a longer period when they really will generally achieve the same results (if a guy was playing well all game you wouldn't be down so much etc). Scrub #2?

The triangle doesn't require a PG to do as much, but it actually limits them statistically. Of course you can't neglect that Farmar shot 65.5% FT his first 301 NBA games and has shot 82.4% FT his last 153 games. You can't ignore that Farmar averaged 35.9% 3PT those same 301 games and has been a 39.7% 3PT shooter in his last 153 games. That's a 2 season sample.

Per minute, take out his rookie year when he was still adjusting. Farmar per 36 in triangle:

14.5 PPG / 3.6 RPG / 4.2 APG / 2.2 TPG / .528 TS%

Farmar per 36 outside the triangle:

15.5 PPG / 3.4 RPG / 7.1 APG / 3.1 TPG / .533 TS%

Yea, seems like the effect, they play less on the ball, so lower assists, but for him he improved as a shooter since then, so that's good. 3 more assists to one more turnover, not a bad trade off. Injury prone is hard to fully say. His career:

72/82 --> I think he played in the D-League for some time

82/82

65/82

82/82

73/82

39/66

Overseas

41/82

Meh, who knows yet. I don't think he has an consistent lingering injury, so honestly it's hard to make the conclusion that he's injury prone, but it is true that he's missed games his last two NBA seasons.

Also, I said the backup isn't going to determine if you win a series. A backup can win you games, but a teams ability in the playoffs is not going to be hanging on a 12-13 mpg backup, it's just the reality, and a team losing a superstar isn't going to be like "oh man, only if we spent more money on that 1 mpg backup, we would have lost in 5 games instead of 4, oh what a travesty". I mean, come on. Of course you'll love the backup to be able to produce here and there and have big games, nothing suggests Farmar can't.

Okay, some people got excited, but you can say he's not an upgrade or not as good without making it seem like the team just ruined it's chances because man, Farmar will play the 10 minutes that Paul who played 38 mpg in the playoffs is on the bench and not Collison. It's probably remedied by not having the two PG lineup for an extra 10 mpg if we had Collison.

Now, if you have an idea of one of two things:

1) A better backup $2M PG, that is one that would accept $2M, so not Collison as he was doing us a favor before. If we look at the market, we're talking about guys like Steve Blake.

2) A third big that fits better than Hawes who we could have gotten for the BAE since to keep Collison we would have had to use the MLE on him, and since Cleveland obviously due to Lebron wasn't going to be signing and trading anyone to us, we wouldn't have money for Hawes.

So a big that is good and we could get for BAE, or let's say we give Collison $3.5M or MLE, we'd still only have like $1.7M, which is less, so at that price. A big in a 3 big rotation who compliments three of our starters and will play 26-28 MpG in the playoffs and can have big games or a 10 minute backup who we can give extra minutes and go undersized but still won't give more than 19-20 mpg.

I suppose we'll have to see what the PG's sign for. So far, Lowry $12M/year , Thomas $6.8M/year, Vasquez $6.5M/year, Collison $5.3M/year, Livingston $5.3M/year, Mills $4M/year, D.Harris $4.5M/year, Farmar and Blake $2.1M/year.

So so far only Steve Blake shows up in our price range outside of Farmar. So I guess it depends on how much Bayless, Augustin, maybe Jameer Nelson, assuming they would want to come here too, because there's always that assumption, they might have been contacted and wanted bigger roles or more money. I didn't include guys like Aaron Brooks and Kirk Hinrich since we are acknowledging that health is a factor, maybe that knocks our Nelson too.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Aside from parsing words, you are comparing apples and oranges here. In a game where all you're trying to do is not get swept is not the same as what Collison did to virtually keep us from losing the series by going down 3 to 1 at home. So Will Barton ending the game with those numbers when their was no pressure is equivalent to what Collison did? Excuse me, the difference is that Collison was clutch in the closing minutes of game 4 with us being down 7 points with 5 minutes to go. Again, I ask you, is that same? Don't think so.

Thabo is not a scrub and if he actually had his number called more, he'd be pretty good on offense. Thebo himself complained about this very thing. I would say he doesn't fit the mold of a scrub and I am sure deep down inside, you agree. A player is either a scrub or he isn't. That's like saying Tony Allen is a partial scrub but despite his offensive shortcomings, no one considers him a 50%, 25%, or a 75% scrub. The guy is a stud. Thebo isn't on the same level but he is not a scrub any way you slice it. Didn't you want him on our team? Just say'n.

My point is that Collison saved our season by being clutch in the final minutes of a game that would have put us out to pasture. We weren't up, we were down 7 with 5 minutes left. He was able to shine on the biggest stage, final minutes, down by 7 while the Thunder were licking their chops at closing us out in their home in 5 games. That's what players live for...those types of moments. the pressure is on and he puts his team on his back and carries us to what could've been our own close out game if not for CP3 giving away our own closeout game at home. When I said vital, it was virtually a do or die for us based on the % of a team coming back from a 3-1 deficit. So no, not all games are vital when put into that context. So my initial comment stands.

I'll put it to you this way:

Even some superstars have not had a game like Collison had. That was a game to remember.

for those that think this was a "any scrub can have a game like that", here is a nice article stating the importance of that game and what Collison did for Clippers Nation.

http://www.xnsports.com/2014/05/11/2014 ... n-thunder/


Agent0
CTB MVP X2
Posts: 6602
votes: 58

It's not the same, true and pressure levels are different, sure, but really Collison probably just went out to play basketball and his plays were successful and his shots went in, and had a great quarter, it's not some special thing that he is more capable at achieving than the next player, it doesn't up his value, but it is certainly a good moment in his career.

Thabo is an offensive scrub, but total scrubs are pretty inconsequential on both ends, but we were talking about offensive contribution.

Anyways, I don't disagree that what Collison did was great, but the problem like even the article stats is that he is inconsistent. It is that Collison might never have a quarter like that ever again in his career, so it's just hard to say Collison's value to this team is higher because there's a 1 in 1000 chance that he just kills it in a quarter and saves a series. That's just such a small chance happening that we can't make decisions on that. Can Farmar do the exact same thing? Not likely, but can Farmar get hot in a game, sure, he can hit some shots and give the team a boost, that's all we need, we don't really need a backup PG capable of single handedly saving a series in a quarter because there is no such player. Collison did it, but that isn't what we consider his level of ability anyways.

We have to temper our player expectations relative to our cap situation as a team. A 57 win team probably shouldn't have so much cap room and flexibility anyways because then the NBA's cap system isn't necessarily doing what it is meant to do in terms of spreading the talent around.


clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
 Avatar
Posts: 17434
Location: los angeles
calif.gif
votes: 135

Agent0 wrote:
It's not the same, true and pressure levels are different, sure, but really Collison probably just went out to play basketball and his plays were successful and his shots went in, and had a great quarter, it's not some special thing that he is more capable at achieving than the next player, it doesn't up his value, but it is certainly a good moment in his career.

"he probably just went out to play basketball". Do you realize how that sounds? Some great players never get to feel that way much less experience anything like in their careers and you just brush it off like he lucked out or something. That's convenient.

Quote:

Thabo is an offensive scrub, but total scrubs are pretty inconsequential on both ends, but we were talking about offensive contribution.

No, you moved the goal post from your original statement. In fact, your definition of a scrub changed from "any scrub", to "offensive scrub". Furthermore, your examples didn't even fit your own criteria.

"The problem is that it is one game. Even scrubs, and Collison isn't a scrub can have high impact in one game in a critical moment in the playoffs. We can't really hold on to that if a guy is going to play below his averages in the other games though, it's just a bad way of looking at impact."

Your examples weren't in a critical moment of the playoffs. Well, at least not in the way ours were. And to somehow diminish what Collision did because he was not playing that great in other games doesn't change the impact he had on a series changing game. After all, he's just a role player playing limited minutes. But the fact remains, when we really really really needed someone to step up, he did and he changed the complexity of the series. Too bad our starting PG, decided to get cute and cost us the series. In this case, your comment about us not advancing without CP3 didn't hold true. It because he was in there late in the game that we didn't advance.

I also disagree about it being a bad way to look at impact. Are we talking about one game? Are we talking about one game where everything is on the line? Or are you stretching this out of proportion so one game seems trivial? Would it be fair to say that for a role player, Collison did what a superstar usually does on the biggest stage? Even if for one night. He not only impacted a game, he did what very few ever do in those types of situations no matter how much of a scrub you are or how great of a star you are. You can stretch this to mean a full series, playoffs, or even a season. We both know what this discussion is about.


phaded21
Clipper Starter
 Avatar
Posts: 428
Location: South Central LA
votes: 0

Looks like Boozer might be amnestied by the Bulls. Hopefully we can get her for cheap if he's ok with coming off the bench.


Go To the Top of the ThreadGo Home

or Comment Using FB

Post new topic   Reply to topic

register
You are an anonymous user- Register now!


Follow our Los Angeles Clippers RSS Feed, plus the Clippers Rumors RSS Feed, the LA Clippers News RSS feed, and the Clippers Forum RSS feed to get the newest updated Clippers News and Trade Rumors plus Clippers Game update in your RSS/XML reader!