Official Los Angeles Clippers Trade Ideas Thread (P. 99)

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da11da
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Agreed he would be helpful in the rebounding department but i would like to see a better defender out there.

Voyeur
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Ah but I was talking specifically about my support of the Knicks/Clippers. Your accusation regarding my loyalty does not deserve an answer. However, you at least deserved an answer about the douche bag comment. It's the least I could do. I just think it's tragic that you had to change the subject. I wonder why you did that? Hmmm....another mystery.

CP3Heliflopter
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Its an obnoxious sentiment. Who are you to question another fan's loyalty and if they are a bandwagon fan so what? Being a fan for many years does not give you special privileges over other fans.

Voyeur
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^ He must've become a Clipper fan straight out of the womb. If so, he definitely has the advantage over me. lol

Speaking of which, who thinks Reggie Evans started grabbing boards out of the womb? I think it's a very real possibility!

Clipswhit
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I agree, but he'd be a much better option than Antawn Jameson :barf:

Clipswhit
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Reggie was grabbing boards IN the womb.

Voyeur
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LOL! His poor mama!

Voyeur
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Appropriately, NBATV has been playing the OT playoff game between Brooklyn and Chicago. Chicago would end up winning but Reggie's energy is fantastic even in overtime. His boxing out is so good. Even when the Bulls are making their shots, Evans is owning his man and in position nearly every time.

LeftHook
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I was a Bulls fan growing up. The Bulls were like real life transformers to me. Jordan left, Pippen left, I became more interested in high school, and going out with friends, so my TV was neglected. Got older, looked at sports differently, caught a glimpse of Odom and Clippers... wasn't a fan yet, but I watched. Clippers drafted Darius Miles and Quentin Richardson, fan eversince.

My point is, people change. In m case, I got older and I started looking at sports differently. As kids, we usually become fans of "the best" in everything. Most kids liked Batman over Aquaman, pizza instead of broccoli. When we get older, some of us become fans for different reasons.

Let's all relax.

Flushyriver
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Think someone may have suggested it already but maybe Darrel Arthur? 3.2 mill salary in a crowded frontcourt. Willie Green and TPE?

They also have Anthony Randolph if Willie Green isn't exactly expendable yet. Maybe a 2nd round for him?

Andrew818
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I like the trade if it's possible.Right now they have Foye and Fournier as their main 2 guards.Not a very strong pair so they might be interested in Willie.But I am not sure if you can combine a players salary and the TPE in a trade.

Flushyriver
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Oh oops. I thought the TPE just meant like salary relief found in a trade so if they give us a 3.2 mill for a player with a 1.4 mill salary it gets deducted from our 2.6 mill TPE (.8 mill left) and they automatically get the difference of the salary they lost as TPE (1.8 mill)? Is that not how that works? Or does the receiving player's salary have to be below our TPE to allow it to not effect our cap? Cause then that limits our options a bit... :/

But yeah just shooting around ideas. Hoping for anything really

pageC4
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This last sentence is puzzling aren't you essentially saying the same thing? A rate of production held steady over 36 minutes is essentially what PER 36 is. So how is it not essentially saying "this is what you would average playing 36 MPG? So for players that only play about 9 minutes per game it allows comparison to those who do play 36.

Still, we do agree on one thing in that you do have to look at more than the good in per minute production. I especially have issue with per 36 because some players can't even have a season where they average that many minutes. Chris Kaman is a prime example. He has only 2 seasons where he played more than 30 MP (2007-2008, 2009-2010) so this guy can't even stay healthy enough for this magic stat to mean anything for him. That Is what i find great error in. Comparing players per 36 is a horrendous practice unless injury history and other factors are considered.

Flushyriver
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Dude even if it doesn't translate to actual equivalent numbers in 36 minutes, the production a player does in limited minutes is still impressive. If a player can accomplish respectable PER 36 numbers playing 15 minutes, then he's still playing efficiently productive numbers for those 15 minutes and is therefore a good qualifier for his value at playing those 15 minutes. Especially when looking this deep in the bench you want a player that can produce in small minutes.

I get that there are gaps in number crunching but that doesn't mean it means nothing. PER 36 is still a pretty useful indication of value when looking at bottom line even if it distorts players that produce well in short minutes. It's still a better qualifier than simply saying player A that plays 15 minutes a game and average of 6.5 ppg and 5.2 rpg is worse than a player B that plays 25 minutes and averages 7.0 ppg and 5.5 rpg just because player B technically averaged more points and rebounds per game. Both stats alone don't speak for themselves. PER 36 isn't absolute, just a better instrument to determine worth with.

Andrew818
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I asked Eric Pincus on twitter if Clippers could trade Willie and the TPE together for Darell Arthur and he said no.Since it seems like we can't combine the TPE with a player in a trade,I think trading Willie,Hollins,Wayns non guaranteed contract and a 2nd rounder for Arthur is possible and would work money wise.They could release Wayns after the trade and keep Willie and Hollins as good locker room vets to help their young group of players.

Agent0
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Rate of production:

Yes, if you hold your rate of production over 36 minutes, those will be your per 36 numbers. Most players can do that, so for them it is an accurate depiction of what they would do. How did we know Omer Asik was on of the league's best rebounders before this season? We saw him playing and grabbing boards, then per 36 numbers and rebound percentage affirmed it (or just saying 5 rebounds in 15 minutes, thats like 10 in 30 minutes). Maybe his rate drops with more minutes, but per 36 numbers produced over a large sample size are an accurate depiction.

For example, Asik had played 1960 total minutes and had a rate 0.334 rebs/minute (12.0 rebs/36). 36 minutes is actually not THAT relevant, it's only chosen because it is about the average starters minutes and gives you an approximate starting minute production and therefore is good for comparison. Statistically, Jamison for example averaged more rebounds than Asik the previous two seasons, but would it be accurate to say Jamison is a better rebounder because he plays more minutes? No, and I know you don't agree, so that is the value.

Per 36 is actually just per minute production but put at a minute amount that gives good evaluating/comparison power. It used to be per 40 when players played about 40 MPG more regularly, but as minutes have decreased, it's moved down. If players regularly start playing closer to 30 MPG as starters, we will have per 30. They all provide the same function, just that saying 12/10/2 per 36 makes more sense for a comparison to people than saying 0.33 pts, 0.28 rebs and 0.056 blocks per minute. What the heck is that? Does that mean anything to you cause I can't make sense of it. We know what production over 36 minutes look like, but most of us don't think of production per minute, so 0.56 pts/minute means nothing to you, while 20 pts/36 gives you an idea of what kind of scorer the player is.

Some players can't even play 36 minutes:

I think you kind of beat up the strawman,and you're right. I certainly wouldn't, and no one should compare ANY numbers without context. This isn't isolated to per 36, raw numbers also shouldn't be compared without examining injury history, efficiency, fit, role, defense, turnovers (which should already be included in the numbers discussion). So yea, you're correct, but this isn't a problem with per 36, this would just be a problem with the person who's quoting it as an end point, not a starting point.

Per 36 or any numbers are a starting point for discussion / comparison as there has to be at least some analysis following. (And for the person that wants to get me on that, yes, they could be an "end point" if you've already done other analysis first Wink)

So yea, for example, not only is Kaman injury prone, he's turnover prone and he's an inefficient scorer, so numbers don't actually favor him at all. In his defense, while per 36 is used, a lot of C's linger in the 32 MPG range as starters, so his inability to play 36 minutes every night isn't an issue.

TheDude
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I wonder if they're looking at Haywood as a possible acquisition. Bobcats have jettisoned two bigs already and still have 4 centers, one of which they just paid 40mil and two more are recent lottery picks...Jefferson, Biyombo, Zeller, and Haywood. Still have McBob and could bring back Diop if they wanted to.

Even if you think Zeller can play PF, they still have Jefferson and Biyombo who are exclusively centers.

Willie + 2nd round pick for Haywood. Haywood has 3years left at just over 2mil per year. Extremely valuable contract for us. Willie would definitely help that team with his shooting and veteran leadership and anyway, his contract is even more favorable than Haywood's.

Alternatively, we could even go Willie + 2017 1st round pick for Haywood + 2014 or 2015 2nd round pick. These picks would end up being only a few selections apart and an early 2nd rounder is better than late 1st anyway.

Then I'd sign Harrington so our bench bigs are Harrington, Haywood, Hollins, Mullens. That would be much better than last year no doubt.

Replace Willie with Delonte or Barbosa and you're done. Well rounded roster.

Andrew818
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^

I was thinking the same but would give the Bobcats Willie,Maalik Wayns,and a 2nd rounder.I would have Mullens and Haywood as my 2 main back up bigs.I would also sign Anthony Toliver,Lou Amundson or Shavlik Randolph incase of injury.Hollins and one of these guys would be good 3rd string bigs.

Haywood is a bit foul and injury prone but when he's healthy he is a good back up big.He can defend,rebound,and block shots.He is a big and strong body who could help in games against teams like the Nuggets,Jazz,Warriors,Pacers,Nets,and Grizzlies who have good big man.

Agent0
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I know Haywood is from NC, he's from some place close to Charlotte, so even though he probably hates the suckiness of the team, he's got to like that aspect of it.

His fouling actually isn't that bad, 3.9 fouls/36 on his career, same last year. I'll chalk his play last year to Bobcats depression, he couldn't finish anything though, but he still rebounds well (more offensively than defensively), and can defend. I do like Willie though. Isn't Kwame Brown an option now too, could get him for the minimum, but his defense isn't as good as Haywood's.

It's a bit funny that some of Mullen's teammates are being mentioned:

Haywood

T.Thomas

Andrew818
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I would feel really bad if we sent Willie to the Bobcats haha.But if we can get Haywood that does give us the defense and rebounding we need.That would mean playing Mullens at the 4 which would be cool to have two 7 footers as our back up bigs.

I know Mullens is more of a center but with his frame I would rather have him playing against PF's because what he gives up in strength he makes up for in length to bother guys on defense.If we were to trade Willie,Wayns,and a 2nd rounder then our roster would look like this:

PG: CP3,Collison

SG: Redick,Crawford,Bullock

SF: Dudley,Barnes

PF: Blake,Mullens

C: DJ,Haywood,Hollins

We are allowed to have a 13 man rotation so for the last spot I would sign either another PG or preferably another PF in case of injury or foul trouble.That 2nd unit gives us a good mix of offense and defense.Would be more than happy if our FO can give us this roster.

Greenmonk94
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Stay the way we are.. Add all Harrington!! Just train and wait till the season starts

CapsNClips
CTB MVP X1
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Anybody see Eric Pincus rank the top 6 Front Offices in the league? I was laughing so hard when he put the Lakers ahead of us.

One of his reasons was because they almost acquired Chris Paul. Good one Mr. Pincus but your biased thoughts have betrayed you because you fail to mention we almost acquired Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, but apparently that doesn't count.

TheDude
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In this hypothetical situation we can now afford to sign tweener like Harrington or even Jamison even though I'd much prefer the former. Stick Harrington in there as the 6th big and then sign one of the many combo or wingman still on the market.

I personally am partial to Delonte West, a lot like Nate Rob in that he is capable of winning a game by himself if he's hot. He's also mean and ugly and that's great. We could pick him up in a heartbeat since most teams are afriad to sign him. finish it out and end up like this ideally for me..

CP3, Collison, Delonte

Redick, Jamal, Bullock

Dudley, Barnes

Blake, Mullens, Harrington

DJ, Haywood, Hollins

Can't imagine there's a better roster in the league.

pageC4
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he did? wow I can't believe the bias

Greenmonk94
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Lakers have 17 championships.. We have none.. Wonder why he them ahead of us?

ClipperB23
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^ They actually have 16 not 17 but regardless that is the past, no way they have a top 5 Front office right now. Eric Pincus is sipping that purple and yellow piss a bit too much!

Greenmonk94
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My bad thanx for the correction..

I hate the Lakers but to knock on there front office just doesn't make sense.. No front office is perfect( baron Davis signing, Lakers hire dantoni) but Lakers have great for the most part.. We have been really horrible( until recently) I hope the future is flipped and we see 16 championships in the future! (Ima dreamer)

CapsNClips
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It's best "Front Offices" not franchise. So far with Jim Buss at full control he has hired Mike Brown. Strike one. Has hired Mike D'Antoni. Strike two. Has failed to keep Dwight Howard around while dangling $30 mil in front of his nose. Strike three Lakers are out.

Let's not mention him and Mitch traded 4 draft picks for 38 year old Steve Nash. Damn what a GREAT front office. And they did all that while staying under the luxury tax?!? Haha No No No, nice try though Jimmy boy.

If the Lakers Front Office is the 3rd best in the league, then we might as well just become Cricket fans because that means this league is hopeless.

ClipperB23
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No problem my man and I hear you, I myself am a dreamer too! That being said, the future is bright, very bright (Blake Griffin voice) 8)

23efren23
Clipper 6th Man
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If dj and Blake don't get it done they will be traded trust it's cp3 team and doc rivers

CP3Heliflopter
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DJ yes. BG no....

Clipswhit
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Off topic, but I don't know where to put this and I don't think it deserves its own thread. Griz got Kosta Koufos to back up Marc Gasol.

Gasol/Koufos

Randolph/Ed Davis

That's a hell of a big man rotation. If we happen to meet them in the POs again, we're going to need a strong defensive 3rd big, or we're just going to have to hope that Doc can turn DJ into that DPOY caliber guy. Preferably both.

Flushyriver
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Yeah it's the reason most of us are so concerned with who our 3rd big is going to be.

Memphis isn't our only competition in the West and not the only team with a stacked defensive interior:

OKC:

Ibaka/Collison

Perkins/Adams/Thabeet

Spurs:

Duncan/Bonner/Pendergraph

Splitter/Diaw

Warriors:

Lee/Speights/Green

Bogut/O'neal/Ezili

Rockets:

Smith/Motiejunas/Jones

Howard/Asik/Camby

(Plenty of young PFs they may be willing to trade for cheap if they're planning on trying a lot of Howard and Asik)

Silasie
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Agreed, for positions 1,2 and 3 we are contenders, but the 4 and 5 are flawed apart from Blake. That's why it feels so important we get the right backups.

Agent0
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Yup, that's why I couldn't understand why people were brushing it aside and thinking we could just get anyone there.

Our main backup 4/5 is going to be a big deal, and it will impact games because that player technically will play a decent amount. That's generally a 20 MPG type player....then add uncertainty of how many minutes DJ will play or how well he will play and it's a big deal.

All those teams know what they are getting from their starting C, even Warriors know what they get when Bogut is healthy, and all those teams except OKC have an elite level defensive anchor at PF (Duncan) or C. OKC also still has a high level defensive combination despite the flaws, and they have a great defender in Collison off the bench.

The Clippers have the most uncertain defensive front court of all top Western teams, this is a big deal!

Flushyriver
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Exactly! I don't think we even need a guy that'll play 20 minutes a game like a Collison, but if he can be Collison-like for even a 15 minute plug in a game? That would go a long way in the regular season and would bolster some of our defensive schemes.

But yeah I was thinking that too. As far as defensive anchors go, Jordan isn't exactly Ibaka, Duncan, Howard, or Bogut on defense.

Not sure if this is what you meant so just to clarify: do you not think Ibaka is an "elite level defensive anchor?"

Silasie
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Yes yes yes.

I hope Doc is on it. Surely he is!!

Agent0
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Ibaka is a PF, those guys are all strict C's except Duncan who is a PF/C, but Ibaka is a great rim protector and shot blocker, but he's average at best as a man defender and doesn't get to spots consitently as well as Collison for example. Perkins is still a good man defender despite all the other things he's awful at. OKC is less about one super anchor and more about just a combination of good defensive bigs all with different strengths.

Flushyriver
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How does the position he play change whether he's an elite defensive anchor? If anything it narrows the field from what you consider an elite defender. You were considering both PFs and Cs anyways when you said it.

If you don't think Ibaka is an elite defensive power forward, who do you think is better than him defensively at that position??? Certainly there aren't 5 better...

Agent0
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It doesn't at all, just that I was thinking more of C's because of DJ and Duncan is a PF/C. I don't think there are many better defensive PF's, but there are certainly higher impact defenders at C. I think it is just my bias for C or PF/C anchors because of the versatility it brings to the front-court (can use a mainly offensive or shooter type at PF). Outside of KG who's now moving to PF, Duncan, and Gibson who's about as good, there are no other PF's clearly better or as good on defense (Lebron doesn't count as a PF).

seanrooks
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I agree with everything, except what you said about Bogut. The fact is because of his health you WON'T know what you get from him. We should have a better idea of what we'll get from Jordan, because at the very least, he shows up. And I do think Bogut is better when healthy, but the fact that he's hurt so often makes him a bigger question mark than how well Jordan will play. At least we know Jordan will show up.

Everything else you said stands though. We desperately need a better 3rd big than Mullens/Hollins.

Flushyriver
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No yeah okay, I totally agree with that. I just thought you meant Ibaka wasn't an elite PF defender, but I think we can agree he's better defensively than either one of our starting front court players. And for a team you think has a combination of very good defensive big men instead of one, "discovering" that they have an elite one in Ibaka only strengthens the idea we were both actually making.

We are the only team lacking a true front court defensive anchor atop of the Western conference!

CP3Heliflopter
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In general the term defensive anchor applies more for Centers than PFs since Centers usually have higher impact on the defensive end. The only PFs I would label as defensive anchors are Duncan and Garnett.

Ibaka is a high impact defender for a PF but no defensive anchor. He does that not have that kind of impact. When referring to defensive anchors I think of the two I just mentioned and guys like Marc Gasol, Hibbert, Dwight, Sanders, etc.

Nevertheless, Ibaka is still a very good defender and he did a good job of limiting Zbo. Something we could not do at all.

Flushyriver
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Yeah I know the difference between centers and power forwards. I know that centers are more central to defensive schemes, but any player that leads all players in blocks by the margin that he did last year has to be considered a true defensive anchor. He blocks at an upper echelon elite tier that, by itself, creates an interior presence that's matched by very few other players let alone power forwards.

I think Ibaka is a better interior defender than Garnett at this point in his career with athleticism and power alone.

bryan
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Clippers should consider trading for someone like Glen Davis

Flushyriver
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The guy has a 6.4 mill salary and a 6.4 mill extension for next year. Probably out of our price range, even if we could get value in a trade for him and Orlando was actually looking to trade him.

For example, if we traded Jared Dudley's 4.25 mill salary and a 2.15 TPE for Davis (guess there'd be draft picks and money exchanges, but just looking at salaries for now), the Clippers would be paying the 2.15 TPE in luxury tax money. Not to mention with our current roster we have zero cap room for next season as it is and that our FO is not even comfortable being in the financial situation we are in right now (not exactly big spenders), a 6.4 mill salary is most likely outside of our price range when considering down the road.

We may be more willing to trade for a more manageable contract for next season that wouldn't necessarily require some necessary movement to fit the cap.

EDIT NOTE: Nevermind. I still know very little about the TPE as it turns out. Either they'd have to use the 125% rule where they can acquire a player 125% +100k more in salary than the player being traded (less than 5.41 mill for Dudley's 4.25) or use the TPE they have from the first trade (2.15 mill or less), but the two cannot be combined. Guess they'd have to trade Crawford and his 5.2 mill salary where they could get up to a 6.6 mill (125%+100k of 5.2) player or less in a non-simultaneous trade where they would acquire 6.6 mill in TPE for trading Crawford (which Magic has plenty of) for nothing and then receive Davis for nothing in exchange for the TPE and plus we'd still retain the Bledsoe TPE. This trade would be more legitimate in our financial situation, though the values seem off.

Oh and I understand that you may not have meant Davis per se, but I just think it's notable that our salary flexibility puts the shambles on many legitimate options.

TheDude
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I'd love to get BigBaby but it would mean we have to move Crawford or Willie+Dudley and I don't think it's worth it. We can't afford to make too much of an unbalanced trade because all increases in salary from this point on, cost 1.5times in tax. Even Crawford for Bigbaby (which I wouldn't want to do) would increase our payroll 3mil including the tax implications and we'd still have to go out sign a replacement for him. Not worth it plus he's coming off a serious injury so he's risky to boot.

Just FYI, TPE is actually simple. TPE can only be used to trade for an individual player who makes that much or less. Can't be combined in a move or with cash or with extra players. We have 2.5 (or so) TPE from Bled, we can trade straight up for a player that makes that much or less. That's it. After a year it disappears. If we traded for a guy making 1mil, we'd still have a 1.5mil TPE to use until the year is over.

Agent0
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Yea, Davis isn't worth trading Dudley at all, and he makes too much. If he was making like $3M, then okay.

I think we'll see what happens now and there is still the option to make moves at the deadline

Andrew818
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The Magic want young talent or expiring contracts.They might take Crawford and Willie but we would be giving up too much for just Big Baby.They wouldn't give us any picks either because they are rebuilding.Dudley's contract is too good to move him imo.Him and Barnes are gonna be big for us and both their salaries together are still less than what Butler would have made.I like our SF combo a lot and wouldn't move them.

Flushyriver
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Agreed. Not too many suitable ways to get Davis. But there may be more options down the stretch that teams aspiring for a lottery spot may be willing to shed for picks and money. That's when we attack!! lol

Oh yeah I think I mixed up TPE with the 125% rule. Sorry. Tax paying teams can absorb contracts 125%+100k of the contract they're losing in non-simultaneous trades. So we can technically trade Crawford for Davis (JCraw's salary is 5.225 mill. 125% of 5.225 mill is 6.53 mill).

This is how it can be used in trades with cash or other players. It happens essentially as the simple TPE exchange, but is combined to add assets in trades where players are worth more than just the TPE and/or draft picks. Non-simultaneous trades (think it happened with the Kevin Martin s&t where OKC sent cash and Martin to minny for Martin's TPE):

We could therefore trade J.Craw + TPE (from Bledsoe trade) for Davis + Maurice Harkless.

The trade would be compartmentalized where Harkless is sent to us for a 1.8 mill TPE (leaving us with .8 mill in Bledsoe TPE) and then J.Craw would be traded directly for Davis using the 125% rule. Think it works theoretically. Though we'd be getting about 3 million more in salary and added luxury tax expenses.

At a lower level (just to hypothetically involve the TPE we have right now), we could move Willie Green and his 1.4 mill contract to OKC for just a 1.4 mill TPE (which they have from the Eric Maynor trade) and in a separate move, trade our 2.6 mill TPE from before with draft picks for Nick Collison and his 2.6 mill contract. So the end result would be:

Clippers:

Send: Willie Green + Draft Picks + 2.6 mill TPE

Get: Nick Collison + 1.4 mill TPE

It's technically two separate moves, but it does give the appearance that the TPE, picks, and the player are being traded together.

Read an article that suggested shedding DJ and Crawford's salary may be significant for the Clippers going into the next offseason because of the number of upper echelon players that want to play for true contenders. The article itself focuses on Dwayne Wade but obviously there are others. Thoughts?

Article:

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/08/07/is-a-chris-paul-dwyane-wade-c ombination-a-future-possibility-for-los-angeles-clippers/

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