If Clippers Get 2nd pick...Baron for Maggette

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Trinidad
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I was on ESPN and bumped into this column Chad Ford wrote pretty interesting I don't know what I'd think about it but what are yall thoughts?

SAN FRANCISCO -- I talked to one NBA executive in Los Angeles on Tuesday who said it wouldn't be a surprise to see the Clippers reoffer Baron Davis to the Warriors for Corey Maggette if the Clips can land Ricky Rubio in the draft. The Clippers are big fans of Rubio, and obviously they can't play him with Davis.

The Warriors turned down similar overtures at the trade deadline, but they might want to reconsider. With a healthy Davis, they would be a playoff team. But as of now, they lack a regular point guard and look as if they could be making another trip to the lottery.

NUMB3RFIFTY
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That would really suck.

I would ask for Randolph in the deal and involve a third team to pickup Maggette.

clipperboy24
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hey if rubio can start right away it wouldnt be too horrible... only way we can get baron's salary off our books and maggette is a good player. He didnt mind playing for the clipps and would save us around 3 mil. per year. I am sick of the lazy pile that represents Baron Davis

Izlix
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well with a healthy Baron, clips would be a playoff team too.

health is almost always a huge variable in team success

SamMays
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Having caught a glimpse of Baron's character (or lack of it), I would ship him off for a second round pick just to be out from under his salary... If we could get back Maggette, I'd be thrilled with the deal... I'd do it even if we didn't get Rubio, but got Jennings or Evans instead.

I don't think the Clips are a playoff team with Baron and Zach healthy... Hell, they were healthy down the stretch and we went 1 - 9... The only win was against Sacramento... The Celtics lose their best player in Garnett and still look like they will get to the third round of the playoffs... Orlando loses Nelson, they continue to win... Good players can still achieve during adversity... Dogs fold.

Had they gone 5 and 5 the last ten, I'd think maybe there was hope for this group... They didn't... It appears even Dunleavy realizes what a dog Baron is, entertaining trade talk with Houston for an injured Tracy McGrady and now this Maggette talk...

clipperboy24
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definitely agree... glad someone else on here cares about work ethic and attitude, not just past performance. Yeah that T-mac trade talk must have been embarassing for Baron Davis because it basically would have been a salary dump... too bad for the Rockets because B-diddy might have helped them in the playoffs

sunnydrew3
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I agree, but with Baron I think besides being healthy he needs to be happy as well more than anything. If Baron isnt happy, he doesnt play well.

sunnydrew3
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I think I would do it too. Lets face it; our starters are veterans who want to "win now" for the most part; except it is looking like this team might not get us a lot of wins. Why not grab a good, young PG to develop with Gordon if we dont get Griffin, and go ahead and trade Baron for Maggette. Mags and Al battle for the starting SF spot fair and square, and the other is the 6th man- both get plenty of touches in the process on offense. Plus, without baron's contract, we then look to trade Zach if possible, maybe even keep him if we must.

I am usually pretty optimistic about our team, and I wont write them off because on paper we have a solid team, but I dont think I will be happy if we do keep this team together and we look like a lottery team after the first month of the season again.

We just gotta wait a few more days for this lottery and see where it gets us.

rick0314
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or keep Baron and Rubio and maybe in 2 years baron can come off the bench and rubio can start

sunnydrew3
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That would be okay, but paying Baron all of that money to be a backup doesnt seem like it is worth it.

clipperboy24
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might be the highest paid bench player in history because at that point he would still have 2 years with $26 million+ left on his contract. Baron is a tangible example of entropy. Whatever he touches goes from order to chaos... the guy is a selfish black hole and team destroyer.

SamMays
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The lottery will tell us alot...

Regarding Baron having to be happy; 65-million doesn't make him happy and want to perform well? Returning to his home town doesn't make him happy and want to perform? Being near all his celeb friends doesn't make him happy and want to perform for them? It can't be your mission in life to make someone happy... Try it with your wife or girlfriend.

Happiness has more to do with his own state of mind and, as I recall, Baron was quite unhappy at times everywhere he's been. The hell with making him happy. He signed a contract. It's in his own best interest to bring it every night and perform to a high level... If we're going to saddle ourselves with players who need to be made happy in order to perform, then ship them out. I don't want them...

I've played and I've coached and I know quitters. Guys who don't have the courage to compete when things aren't going their way. Guys who look for someone to blame rather than give their all so they can protect their egos.

As I recall Maggette was seldom happy, but he worked his tail off every night. I'd be very happy to bring his work ethic back and ship Baron to some very happy place where everything is lovely and the coach says yes all the time and everyone kisses his butt and winning comes easily.

clippersfan85
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I really hope that this last season was enough of an assault on Baron's dignity and pride that he turns his game around next season. I think it would be worse to lose in front of you home city's fans that other places he has played.

If Rubio is drafted this could be a decent trade. I would say Rubio would be as good as a lazy overweight Baron. Baron would be far better if heathy though. Also, I doubt Maggette would want to play for Dunleavy again. I really will be amazed if this team can turn around on Dunleavy's watch.

ekker3
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  1. never trade "franchise" players within the division.

  2. nice to hear the clipshow is interested in ricky, regardless of baron

  3. baron for maggette = we can do better than that.

  4. maggette > thornton

  5. maggette would unfortunately bring a "jail time" mentality upon his return (a la mo taylor and ron harper)

SamMays
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If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.

SamMays
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<<<Note that a team source actually confirmed the Dubs rejected Boom Dizzle for Maggette and that lucky guy who gets free courtside season tickets at the Roaracle this year.>>>

This was a quote from a SF blog... It seems that Maggette/Davis trade is old news... In this version we get Maggette and PG Marcus Williams and they get Davis... Allegedly, they passed on Dunleavy's offer.

MrB
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Trading one primadonna for another with both having inflated contracts is a lose-lose situation. Old news and a bad plan.

ekker3
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baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year).

and although i agree with most of what you've got to say, i disagree with your "burden" point. if i were a team lacking a veteran PG, id gladly take my shot at baron in a heartbeat. i mean, look at us the past couple years: hart, frodo, conroy, andre barret, guillermo diaz, brevin (doesnt look so bad now)...hell we even brought smush to help. if baron was ABSOLUTELY STINKING IT UP with golden state and i knew there was a chance GSW would trade him to us, id do it in a heartbeat...even with that contract.

clipper*joe
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In all this mess Chad Ford wrote, he seems to forget that Maggette had already made it clear he doesn't want to come back here. He said it when Baron signed with us and said it while the trade rumor about him coming back was in the air.

Furthermore, I like Maggette but he is not your typical team player. He has clashed with Dun, Don Nelson, & a few GS players. He does have the passion for the game but that is purely on a selfish level.

Note: Doesn't anyone remember that year we went to the play-offs, he was hurt for the better part of the year? It seems he is only a glorified bench player at best.

No thanks, I think I've seen enough of Corey to contemplate another return. I would much rather have Baron here.

SamMays
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Baron has trashed his reputation in a single year... He's now in "prove it" mode before anyone will want him... When I say the only trade we can get with him is a burden for burden trade, that's in the eyes of the traders... We'd move Baron (I suspect Dunleavy has learned to hate him, hence the Maggette and McGrady rumors) who we apparently no longer want and we'd get a player that our trade partners no longer want... Both sides hoping that they'll catch a rejuvinated player. Tim Thomas seems to be in a lot of those.

And yes, I once thought Baron was a border-line franchise player... Seeing him this year has been an eye opener, however. I was also never a huge fan of Maggette. There were obvious liablities... I have only come to appreciate him in relationship to Baron. I do hope Baron comes back rejuvinated next year, since it's almost certain he will be back... I just doubt we'll see a big improvement.

And our playoff year, Maggette missed 50 regular season games, but was back for the playoffs, averaged 16 points and we came within a basket of the conference finals. For all his flaws, Maggette served us well. Much better than Baron so far.

clipper*joe
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^^ yup, Maggette came in real good when it came to getting to the line...THAT was what I appreciated in him as a player. He had the knack to get to the line and arguably the best at it a few years back. Yes, he served us well in that run but only as a bench player....which is what I consider him to be.

And yes, Maggette has proved his worth more than Baron has but I still have faith that he will come around. I much rather have a player with that has post season experience in a starter's role than a player that has only played a reserve role in the post season.

JMHO

Derty_Bert
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I agree. There was some talk about maggette going to Boston a while back. I don't see him leaving GS especially back to the Clippers.

clipperboy24
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ekker3 wrote:
SamMays wrote:
If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.

baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year).

and although i agree with most of what you've got to say, i disagree with your "burden" point. if i were a team lacking a veteran PG, id gladly take my shot at baron in a heartbeat. i mean, look at us the past couple years: hart, frodo, conroy, andre barret, guillermo diaz, brevin (doesnt look so bad now)...hell we even brought smush to help. if baron was ABSOLUTELY STINKING IT UP with golden state and i knew there was a chance GSW would trade him to us, id do it in a heartbeat...even with that contract.

Ekker the reputation you refer to is tarnished and overrated... look at Baron Davis' career #'s and team performance. Are those franchise shoting % #'s? How about the fact that he has gotten into problems with every coach he has played under and with teammates. Outside of the year the Hornets beatth Magic and the Warriors beat the Utah he has proven to be little more than a selfish player who detracts player ability around him. Why did the teams win those years? He actually made shots especially 3 pt shots, something he has proven he cant do consistently. Yeah if he could shoot at those high levelsand distribute the ball to create a flowing offense then he would be a franchise player. We got duped into signing him and that was why Golden State didnt even have to thnk twice about not resigning him or offering a new contract...

ether
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If you have to trade Baron, how about to Toronto for Calderon?

Someone else suggested this on CTB a few weeks back saying this would pair him with his buddy Chris Bosh. That might entice Bosh to stay in Toronto, so the Raptors might be interested.

Hooch20
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Bryan Colangelo is the GM in Toronto and we know he comes from a running situation in Phoenix so maybe that would help him make the deal.

clipps04
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^^^Can't see Toronto doing that. Why trade away a better younger PG?

NUMB3RFIFTY
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Yeah i dont think thats gona fly. We just need to see what pick we're blessed with in the Draft. It should clear up a lot of things. Pick 1 or 2, and we basically know which heads are gona roll.

Hooch20
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I was looking at a Toronto message board on RealGM and some people were talking about the Baron and Calderon deal. Most of the guys liked it. Some guys also proposed that we do the deal if the teams also agree to swap draft picks.

I think that this deal could be looked at. Baron is friends with Bosh and if they thought that Bosh would likely resign with Baron there they might jump at the deal. You run a lineup of Baron, draft pick, Marion, Bosh, and Bargnani and you have a pretty nice lineup. It's also nice with Calderon, but if you want to play more up tempo you go with Baron. Colangelo is knows to love the up tempo style they played in Phoenix. Rick Bucher also came out yesterday and stated that Toronto would move Bosh if he won't resign this summer. It's a lot to take in, but I really don't think it's that crazy of an idea.

If we didn't land a top 2 pick would you guys be willing to swap picks if it meant trading Baron for Calderon? It would mean dropping down to number 9 which is a drop, but in this draft it may not mean to much.

clipps04
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I think I'd be willing to swap picks with Toronto with a Baron/Calderon trade if we didn't land top 2. The 3rd and 4th pick could still be nice to have but I think it might be worth the trade. Funny thing is though we'd get Calderon but a lot of PG's would be available to us that far down, some of which seem really interesting (Jennings, Curry, Evans, Holiday, and Maynor). That's a lot of PG's, many of which could turn into pretty good players. The two guys we'd look for down there would be either Clark or Henderson, both of which I like. So it could be interesting....

But if we get top 2 then all this goes down the drain lol.

ekker3
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If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.
baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year). and although....

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NUMB3RFIFTY
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In hindsight, Baron coming to LA just seems like a college freshman showing up to campus and his first year the quality of bball sucks cuz he's settling in. I think he'll perform better next year just because his second year on all the teams he's played on has always turned out good (or at least much better than the first year).

CLIPPER$ZONE
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I would never want Maggete back...He just shows up for money and stats nothing else

sunnydrew3
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I think it was Baron who did say every place he has played in his career it took him a year or two to really settle in and turn things around. While I dont think that excuse should necessarily apply to a 10 year vet, it is understandable, especially after we threw together an entirely new roster last summer. Hopefully he does make adjustments and plays better this season. Staying injury free during the preseason would be nice too. I remember Baron and Camby were both injured preseason last season.

Trinidad
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Yea I remember reading an article where it said that after a warriors vs. celtics game where the warriors got blown out KG yelled to maggette, "Way to get your numbers!" So even opponents now realize that dude is just a jacker looking out for himself

sunnydrew3
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Trinidad wrote:
CLIPPER$ZONE wrote:
I would never want Maggete back...He just shows up for money and stats nothing else

Yea I remember reading an article where it said that after a warriors vs. celtics game where the warriors got blown out KG yelled to maggette, "Way to get your numbers!" So even opponents now realize that dude is just a jacker looking out for himself

There was also an article towards the end of last season where apparently Jamaal Crawford and Mags got into a heated argument after a game in the locker room, I believe it was for the same reasons- some of the Warriors were upset that Maggette was just going out there to get his numbers.

SamMays
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While I was never a huge Maggette fan and never thought he was a smart player offensively, took too many bad shots, made bad decisions and committed too many turnovers, etc... He did play hard every game... And, he sacrificed his body by drawing more charges than anyone else they had... Something I've yet to see Baron or Randolph ever do... I would trade both of those losers for Maggette and, like I said, I'm not even a Maggette fan...

Maggette may be a number's guy, but Randolph is worse still and Baron is a flat out lazy, spoiled child.

Derty_Bert
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Leave him in GS. He does'nt even want to play for the Clippers or Dunleavy. I hate floppers and offensive players that jump into the defender and rely on the refs, just play the game. After watching that Spike Lee joint on Kobe, he plays by percentages too, but with Maggette it's different. He won lost lost games with his style of play in LA. Some games he needed to score 50 to win, but he's happy at getting 25 points. He's a good slasher but he dosen't finish he might throw the ball up but he's not trying to make a shot, he just wants to get to the line. We really wont know if it's possible until tommorow after the lottery but I doubt Dunleavy is considering this. If we don't get Rubio then it would a hole to fill at the pg position.

clipperboy24
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If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.
baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year). and although....

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ekker3
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If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.
baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year). and although....

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clipperboy24
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If Baron is a "franchise" player we must have a pretty crappy franchise... Er, yes, we do... I think most teams in the NBA wouldn't take Baron for a second round pick right now... They're not going to want his salary... The best we'll be able to do is trade him "burden" for "burden." They don't like Maggette up at Golden State and don't really want him... Hell, they only signed him to get even with us.
baron IS a franchise player. his contract and reputation scream it. (its not our fault he chose not to be blah this year). and although....

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SamMays
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Ricky Davis averaged better than 19.1 points per game with over 5 assists in three years of his career... I guess that also makes him a "Franchise Player." He was just a willing shooter on a series of bad teams. Davis has been a willing shooter on a series of mediocre to bad teams.

Just what is a Franchise Player? I say he's someone who can put a bunch of mediocre players on his back and make them win... Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, D. Howard, Chris Paul, Wade... Those are the superstars...

Stars: Garnett, Allen, Billups, Nowitzki, Gasol, Butler, Ming, Roy, Anthony, Bosh, and a handful of others... Guys who regularly make all-star teams... Two all-star appearances does not make one a superstar or franchise player...

Baron would on this list, or the list below it of good, sometimes very good NBA players... Or, based on this past year, would be on the unwanted and overpaid list with guys like Iverson (later years), Steve Francis, Eddie Curry, Larry Hughes (amazing how the Knicks still have a lot of those guys) and others.

Hooch20
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I read in a chat on Hoopsworld today that the Rockets are still in talks with the Clips. The deal would most likely be Kaman and Baron to the Rockets for McGrady’s huge expiring contract. I’m assuming that Kyle Lowry would be thrown in to help at PG for us. In the great 2010 shopping spree we could be at least 30 million under the cap, but I could really care less. No big name free agent is going to come here.

If this is true and this deal were to go down this might be the last straw. Sending away two talented pieces for a broken down star that won’t play until January or February would kill the franchise and the stupid belief I have that we’ll someday be a winner.

sunnydrew3
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I read in a chat on Hoopsworld today that the Rockets are still in talks with the Clips. The deal would most likely be Kaman and Baron to the Rockets for McGrady’s huge expiring contract. I’m assuming that Kyle Lowry would be thrown in to help at PG for us. In the great 2010 shopping spree we could be at least 30 million under the cap, but I could really care less. No big name free agent is going to come here. If this is true and this deal were to go down this might be the last straw. Sending away....

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Hooch20
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I think this makes a ton of sense for Houston. Houston gets another PG, so they would have Brooks and Baron. I'm thinking those two could plat minutes together as well. This deal also gives them a very nice center for when Yao is injured and right now Yao is the only center on the team.

ekker3
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i can agree with that, but i still think baron's a franchise player for the mere fact that he defines a team (and if he's on, that team's gonna do wonders). is he an efficient franchise player? well that's another story.

(same thing goes for gilbert arenas. you cant doubt that he's a franchise player even though he hasnt achieved much in his career. again, a low-efficient franchise player.

my point is this: if baron would stop shooting long range shots (including 3's) he'd have a much higher FG% and thus be a more effective player. the stats show that he's not a 3 point shooter and shouldnt be including that into his game. a career 32% and 6 shot attempts per game? no thanks.

  • look at tony parker - the dude cant shoot 3's, realizes that and so he doesnt (attempts less than 1 a game). ends up with a FG% around 50%.

  • look at chris paul - shoots 34% from 3pt range and so he limits those attempts to around 2.5/game. ends up with a 47% FG.

for the record, another low FG% PG: chauncey billups. not a statistical great, but there isnt a team out there that wouldnt pay max dollars and consider him a franchise player .same career average as baron. statistically, crazy how baron's a better defender, passer, rebounder, scorer (baron has that same FG% with less attempts). the difference? i see billups as a more professional player who wouldnt dare to show up to camp out of shape, or ever think of going through the motions. he has no on/off switch. a TRUE leader.

clipperboy24
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ekker3 wrote:
clipperboy24 wrote:

again low CAREER FG% (not just this year) and FT%, no conference finals and only a 2 time all star. those are statistics not opinions and those are not the untarnished reputation that SCREAMS at you now are they?

simply speaking he is not a statistical great no matter how you look at his numbers. He has APG and SPG. Outside of that Baron is mediocre to good at best, statisticall speaking

i can agree with that, but i still think baron's a franchise player for the mere fact that he defines a team (and if he's on, that team's gonna do wonders). is he an efficient franchise player? well that's another story.

(same thing goes for gilbert arenas. you cant doubt that he's a franchise player even though he hasnt achieved much in his career. again, a low-efficient franchise player.

my point is this: if baron would stop shooting long range shots (including 3's) he'd have a much higher FG% and thus be a more effective player. the stats show that he's not a 3 point shooter and shouldnt be including that into his game. a career 32% and 6 shot attempts per game? no thanks.

  • look at tony parker - the dude cant shoot 3's, realizes that and so he doesnt (attempts less than 1 a game). ends up with a FG% around 50%.

  • look at chris paul - shoots 34% from 3pt range and so he limits those attempts to around 2.5/game. ends up with a 47% FG.

for the record, another low FG% PG: chauncey billups. not a statistical great, but there isnt a team out there that wouldnt pay max dollars and consider him a franchise player .same career average as baron. statistically, crazy how baron's a better defender, passer, rebounder, scorer (baron has that same FG% with less attempts). the difference? i see billups as a more professional player who wouldnt dare to show up to camp out of shape, or ever think of going through the motions. he has no on/off switch. a TRUE leader.

i agree that if baron could change his attitude and style he would work for us. But the problem is he is a natural born hucker. One year with the Hornets he actually launched over eight 3pt shots/game and had a 32% 3pt%. Thats horrible and i think descriptive of his playing mentality. The main difference between Billups and Davis is leadership. (also billups 3pt% is over 36% for his career not shabby) Billups wants to win and will work hard doing whatever it takes. Baron wants the team and everyone to adjust to him. Its like having a new coworker that comes in and tells everyone they need to change what they are doing because he knows best. Its ludicrous and it pisses everyone off

Derty_Bert
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That trade would be a steal for the Rockets they need a bigger PG and another center to make up for the games Yao WILL miss during the season. They would be a serious contender.

SamMays
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I could actually see the Rockets making that move... It will give them depth at the post, which they need since Yao misses a lot of games... I suspect they hope they'll get a rejuvinated Baron... If so, they're contenders for a title.

On our end, it would mean Dunleavy truly hates Baron (I think he does) and will do almost anything to get rid of him, including rebuild, which is where we will be. And I'm all for it. We get a top pick this year to go with Gordon... Add another high pick next year because we will certainly suck once again (but at least we'll be a young team that sucks rather than an old lazy one) and we can probably get a promising player or pick for Camby...

Regarding McGrady... I doubt he would ever play here... He's just a contact to get out of, which will give us cap room for 2010 to add a decent free agent who can help things gel... Obviously, we won't get Lebron, but we can get somebody who will help. The right piece to go with youth could make us competetive the year after next...

In the meantime, we could have another exciting young player to go with Gordon to watch, Griffin or Rubio, hopefully and I suspect we would even beat last year's record. I'd be happy with that if they play hard. The next year, we'd be in a position to begin thinking about playoffs... The longer we keep this team together, the longer it will take to realize it doesn't work and we need to start over...

In 2010, you'd have something like this...

Griffin or Rubio... Eric Gordon, Al Thornton, Jordan, Mid-level young pick for Camby, high 2010 pick, Taylor, Minnesota pick, mid-level free agent...

I'd take that and it's only 1.5 years away. Better than suffering through another year with this team.

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