Kaman/Camby trade rumors? (P. 2)

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SamMays
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There are a lot of free agents coming up... I don't like the veteran guys who are making the most money, Zach, Baron and Kaman... They led us to all of 19 wins last season (yes, I know there were injuries)... But I would be more than content moving any of those three in a straight salary dump to use that money for a player who could help us more... Considering, none of them helped us at all last season...

And Dunleavy must really hate having to depend on Baron, who already quit on him last year... If we could drop all three for second round picks, think of the young team we could build... Dunleavy should have been fired as GM for taking Zach alone. Having him kills all the flexibility we would have had...

But oh yea, he won us some games last year... Turned us from 14 all the way up to 19

Hooch20
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We don't move for Zach we finish last in the league record wise and don't end up with the first pick in the draft. We end up 4th where the Kings are, and the Wizards who would have finished third would be getting ready to draft Griffin.

Sure not trading for Zach would have left us with valuable trade assets and cap money to spend in 2010. Would you rather have Griffin or the chance to spend money in 2010?

illastrate
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sz123456 wrote:
ekker3 wrote:
i dont understand the camby trade and why we would only do it for a salary dump considering he 1.) is a contributing force, and 2.) has an expiring contract.

it doesnt make any sense whatsover.

and nbadraftexpress has mentioned that memphis WILL NOT draft rubio. they're either shopping it or drafting someone else.

Exactly, it doesn't make sense to me, he as a player is valuable, and his contract is valuable. I'm confused, I feel like I have no idea what the front office is trying to do

His contract is definitely valuable...and I would consider obtaining Rubio VALUE. Who knows what offers we'll get at the trade deadline for Camby, but if we have a chance to get a future star PG, then why not? I don't see how getting Rubio is a negative at all. If anything, we can trade Baron in the offseason for some more assets and have Rubio be our PG of the future. Another WIN-WIN situation.

clipper*joe
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Hindsight is 20/20.

Trading away all of our vets for a salary dump and second rounders would leave us in a far worse situation than last year. For better or worse, our best chance to compete is having 2 of the 3 players on this coming season's roster. You don't break up a team you just built when half the roster was injured through out the season. I think most Clipper fans don't want to be in rebuilding mode.

And Dunleavy made the right choice by bringing in a PF when he did. Maybe it wasn't the best choice, but then again, there were not many PF's available at the time. He also enabled Gordon to start by making the trade and he got himself a 20/10 guy in return. Furthermore, Kaman got hurt which left us in a predicament. I'm sure everyone will agree that Randolph was an upgrade to our starter, Tim Thomas. He took a chance and I think it wasn't a bad one. Randolph is still better than a Thomas and an aging Mobley....combined.

illastrate
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At the time, I liked the Z-Bo deal. But now, trading him will be for the better. Out of the 4 vets (Zach, Kaman, Camby, Baron), two of them should go. Our intent shouldn't be for salary dumps, but to get some nice assets in return(quality players and high draft picks). Personally, I would like to keep Baron(no choice) and Camby.

I honestly don't believe we can keep the exact same roster(save for Griffin) and expect to be a playoff team or even significantly better than last season. Building around Griffin and Gordon would be the way I'd wanna go. As much as I and a lot of Clipper fans don't wanna rebuild at this point, we might have to consider it...ONCE AGAIN.

LAC_12
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It was not the right move... we sucked - that season was blown, we weren't getting anywhere. Now we finished off thats season at 19 wins and we have a heavy contract to guy with no D.

Hooch20
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If we don't trade for Randolph we don't end up with Griffin. We would have ended up with the worst record and the team with the 3rd worst record would have been the Wizards. The lottery would have played out the same and the Wizards would be choosing 1st.

Sure we could have better cap flexability, but I'm pretty damn happy the way things worked out.

Four more days and Blake Griffin will be a Clipper.

clipper*joe
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Exactly what I have been saying. At the time, it was a "good" move based on the players we traded and the opportunities it gave Gordon. I have profusely stated that Randolph should be the first to go. I then would trade Camby if we need to, but I think he is perfect for coming off the bench and freeing up some cap space for the following season.

I just think that it would be premature for this franchise to break up a team that never really played together long enough to see what could be.

I just don't like the concept of ""rearranging the chairs on the titanic" anymore. If this ship is going to sink, I want to make sure it's the players, coach or the franchise. Going young for the sake of going young never wins anything...short term or long. Good teams have a vets that are either brought in, or are acquired through trades. Of course, there are vets that grew up with the team but those are usually the ones who make the All-star team.

Oh, and lets not forget that Griffin is not a tested player. I would balk before building around him till after his rookie contract is up. Gordon is a keeper for sure, but the rest including Griffin are still up in the air.

If it was up to me, I would see what we can get for Camby. If it isn't a good deal, i say we keep this team together up until the trade deadline. Things become clearer, teams become desperate ( due to injuries, falling outs, or things of that nature) or they just want to go into a different direction.

JMHO

Afm
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Kaveman for Manu sounds nice

sz123456
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Hooch20 wrote:
LAC_12 wrote:
It was not the right move... we sucked - that season was blown, we weren't getting anywhere. Now we finished off thats season at 19 wins and we have a heavy contract to guy with no D.

If we don't trade for Randolph we don't end up with Griffin. We would have ended up with the worst record and the team with the 3rd worst record would have been the Wizards. The lottery would have played out the same and the Wizards would be choosing 1st.

Sure we could have better cap flexability, but I'm pretty damn happy the way things worked out.

Four more days and Blake Griffin will be a Clipper.

I agree, I wouldn't have changed anything if I had the opportunity because now we are going to get a total stud in Griffin. I also agree with ClipperJoe that waiting until the trade deadline could serve us the best. If the team is working out, keep it that way. Otherwise teams get desperate around that time and make rash decisions, we should take advantage of that. Camby is an extremely valuable trade chip, we should treat him as such.

SamMays
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That only works in retrospect, knowing what you know now, not what you knew then... The Kings had a better chance at Griffin than we did... Besides, had we finished last it would have taken them an extra second to writer "Clippers" on the form. The whole timing of the lottery would have been change and different numbers might have come out... If a butterfly flapped it's wings sort of thing...

I'm not advocating dumping Camby, Kaman, Randolph and Baron right now... And of course, if we are going to trade them, I would want to get as much as possible. I said, "I would be more than content" dumping any one of them to free up cap space... Camby and Kaman I would give up reluctantly. Camby was terrific for us last year when he could have folded. Kaman is potentially valuable and potentially worth the money... IMO, Randolph clearly isn't and I lamented that trade for him immediately... Dunleavy could have given the starting 2 job to Gordon and Mobley is enough of a pro to have accepted it.

The player who surprised me, however, was Baron. He talks about being a leader. He isn't. He talks about being for the team. He's only for himself. Even if he shows up in shape next year, I don't trust him to be in shape for the length of his contract. He has a history of gaining weight and the older he gets, the more that will catch up with him. I don't like his decision making. I don't like his ability to lead the team into an offense. I don't like his lateral quickness that has every point guard in the league blowing by him... In short, he's not the kind of guy I'd want on my team... I don't think he's a PG that leads a team deep into the playoffs. His teams are just good when he's on a hot streak because he can't bear to share the spotlight with others.

For his 13 million a year, we could do a lot better and I wouldn't hesitate to set him free... Hell, if I were Sterling last year, I would have put his contract on the table and told him if you want to be a free agent, just tear it up. I would have let him go sign with any other team that wanted him. As much as I've railed about Zach, I blame Dunleavy for that move. Zach is what he is and Dunleavy should have known...

Baron, however, has made me hate him. He's made me scream at the TV for Dunleavy to get him off the floor and I've never done that with any other Clipper, and we've had some that were less than great... My son is a young high school point guard (going into his Freshman year) and Baron's become the cautionary tale. We watch the game and I point out what Baron is doing and warn my son not play like that.

A few favorites:

"See how he went for the steal and didn't get it. That's just lazy, because he didn't want to really play D and now we're playing 4 on 5."

"Look at him just dribble and go nowhere. You dribble to attack the basket. If you can't attack, pass the ball."

"If Baron had attacked the gap, he could have drawn help and gotten Gordon a shot. Instead he spun, took a shot himself and missed. Not the way to generate good will among your teammates."

I'd be willing to bet Dunleavy secretly would love to get rid of Baron if he could and start the season with someone else as out PG... A pass first PG would help chemistry immediately.

Also, salary dumps aren't really just dumps if you use the money you saved wisely on other players. I would never advocate dumping Baron and putting the money in the bank... But having money available allows you to bring in players that other teams can no longer afford... Sterling has shown a willingness to do this... Dunleavy should have done it more wisely... Though, I have to admit, I was happy to have Baron coming in... That is, until I saw him play a whole bunch.

NUMB3RFIFTY
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SamMays wrote:
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If we don't trade for Randolph we don't end up with Griffin. We would have ended up with the worst record and the team with the 3rd worst record would have been the Wizards. The lottery would have played out the same and the Wizards would be choosing 1st.

That only works in retrospect, knowing what you know now, not what you knew then... The Kings had a better chance at Griffin than we did... Besides, had we finished last it would have taken them an extra second to writer "Clippers" on the form. The whole timing of the lottery would have been change and different numbers might have come out... If a butterfly flapped it's wings sort of thing...

I'm not advocating dumping Camby, Kaman, Randolph and Baron right now... And of course, if we are going to trade them, I would want to get as much as possible. I said, "I would be more than content" dumping any one of them to free up cap space... Camby and Kaman I would give up reluctantly. Camby was terrific for us last year when he could have folded. Kaman is potentially valuable and potentially worth the money... IMO, Randolph clearly isn't and I lamented that trade for him immediately... Dunleavy could have given the starting 2 job to Gordon and Mobley is enough of a pro to have accepted it.

The player who surprised me, however, was Baron. He talks about being a leader. He isn't. He talks about being for the team. He's only for himself. Even if he shows up in shape next year, I don't trust him to be in shape for the length of his contract. He has a history of gaining weight and the older he gets, the more that will catch up with him. I don't like his decision making. I don't like his ability to lead the team into an offense. I don't like his lateral quickness that has every point guard in the league blowing by him... In short, he's not the kind of guy I'd want on my team... I don't think he's a PG that leads a team deep into the playoffs. His teams are just good when he's on a hot streak because he can't bear to share the spotlight with others.

For his 13 million a year, we could do a lot better and I wouldn't hesitate to set him free... Hell, if I were Sterling last year, I would have put his contract on the table and told him if you want to be a free agent, just tear it up. I would have let him go sign with any other team that wanted him. As much as I've railed about Zach, I blame Dunleavy for that move. Zach is what he is and Dunleavy should have known...

Baron, however, has made me hate him. He's made me scream at the TV for Dunleavy to get him off the floor and I've never done that with any other Clipper, and we've had some that were less than great... My son is a young high school point guard (going into his Freshman year) and Baron's become the cautionary tale. We watch the game and I point out what Baron is doing and warn my son not play like that.

A few favorites:

"See how he went for the steal and didn't get it. That's just lazy, because he didn't want to really play D and now we're playing 4 on 5."

"Look at him just dribble and go nowhere. You dribble to attack the basket. If you can't attack, pass the ball."

"If Baron had attacked the gap, he could have drawn help and gotten Gordon a shot. Instead he spun, took a shot himself and missed. Not the way to generate good will among your teammates."

I'd be willing to bet Dunleavy secretly would love to get rid of Baron if he could and start the season with someone else as out PG... A pass first PG would help chemistry immediately.

Also, salary dumps aren't really just dumps if you use the money you saved wisely on other players. I would never advocate dumping Baron and putting the money in the bank... But having money available allows you to bring in players that other teams can no longer afford... Sterling has shown a willingness to do this... Dunleavy should have done it more wisely... Though, I have to admit, I was happy to have Baron coming in... That is, until I saw him play a whole bunch.

I can't relate to the mentoring, but those are my sentiments exactly.

ekker3
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just interesting to throw out that dunleavy has never started a draft pick from the beginning of the year. drobjnak started over kaman, jaric/brunson over livy, maggs over thornton, mobley over gordon.

in milwaukee: todd day, vin baker, gary trent rode the bench.

and this isnt dunleavy's first time drafting a #1 pick. when he picked up glen robinson in 1994 (another consensus #1), he didnt start him right off the bat.

im not entirely sure griffin's gonna get the nod over randolph if zach sticks around. its just not in dun's nature.

SamMays
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You're right... He may not start him off the bat, but he's going to get a ton of minutes immediately... Even if he doesn't start from day one, I'll bet he's the starter by Christmas...

clipperstown
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yeah he does this cause he says he doesnt want to embarrass the rookie, cause if he starts the first game then he will be nervous and mess up, so he incorporates them into the starting lineup once they get comfortable. i actually liked this, cause i agree it will help the rookie translate his game into the NBA more fluently.

Derty_Bert
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If we landed Rubio he would absolutely not start, he barely starts on his foreign team.

Sammays it sounds like you have a personal vendetta against Baron, those are mistakes every pg in the league makes from time to time. I understand you don't want you son to play like Baron did last year but the whole organization did bad as a whole, I think we're on Baron's helmet a little to hard I think he tried in the beginning the tailbone injury came from him playing hard and hustling and he was the only one doing it. Baron is not that bad of player to hate everything he does and it just so happened the worse season of his career was on our team and we seen everygame, he'll bounce back.

JamFan
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Over 4000 different lineups, and long stetches of the season we had 4 starters out injured, that is if you could figure who the starters were suppose to be. That is a recipe for making a lot of players and coaches look bad. Only Mike Taylor and Eric Gordon seemed to play through it all. Baron didn't. But is this an aberration for Baron. History says so. If totally healthy and with a healthy talented team around him, all he needs is a coach that will let him go out and do his thing.

clipper*joe
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Thank you for reminding me. That was a feeble attempt to block the shot since the ball was on it's way in, but none the less, that was pure hustle. He was also the most animated player at the start of the season, too. Look no further than our opening game against the Lakers. It was short lived but I think he had every intention to make the most of it. I think once we got into a hole so early into the season, his motivation left him soon after.

As much crap as i have given him, I think he is the most capable player on this team to improve for next season. I still think he can turn us around.

NUMB3RFIFTY
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I expect Randolph to get the "star treatment" where he starts for like 5 mins and then Blake comes in and plays like 30 mins

illastrate
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clipper*joe wrote:
illastrate wrote:

At the time, I liked the Z-Bo deal. But now, trading him will be for the better. Out of the 4 vets (Zach, Kaman, Camby, Baron), two of them should go. Our intent shouldn't be for salary dumps, but to get some nice assets in return(quality players and high draft picks). Personally, I would like to keep Baron(no choice) and Camby.

I honestly don't believe we can keep the exact same roster(save for Griffin) and expect to be a playoff team or even significantly better than last season. Building around Griffin and Gordon would be the way I'd wanna go. As much as I and a lot of Clipper fans don't wanna rebuild at this point, we might have to consider it...ONCE AGAIN.

I just don't like the concept of ""rearranging the chairs on the titanic" anymore. If this ship is going to sink, I want to make sure it's the players, coach or the franchise. Going young for the sake of going young never wins anything...short term or long. Good teams have a vets that are either brought in, or are acquired through trades. Of course, there are vets that grew up with the team but those are usually the ones who make the All-star team.

Oh, and lets not forget that Griffin is not a tested player. I would balk before building around him till after his rookie contract is up. Gordon is a keeper for sure, but the rest including Griffin are still up in the air.

Right, if possible, I'm totally in favor of getting a couple of vets who can help us win because I don't think the vets we have now can get it done. However, I vouch for going in the direction of a team like the Blazers who went .500 two season ago, had 54 wins last season and have set themselves up very nicely for the future. I see the Clippers having the potential to build that kind of team with Gordon playing the role of Brandon Roy eventually. Also, Portland trading Z-Bo paved way for Aldridge to flourish, and I see that same possibility with Griffin. I really don't see any negatives with going this path.

toohipcliptoslip
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Remember a BD trade to the Rockets was supposedly a done deal till

T- Mac got hurt. Take a list of top tier players. Name one who would embarass themselves like BD did. Play your best or Go Fishin' (With Kaman)What you saw is who he is. Interestingly and tragically, Cat's health would have made EG a starter anyway. Isn't it weird and tragic that EB's allstar career may be over after he screwed us?(I hope not)

"No rookies on the wood" Don Nelson. Maybe MDSr believes the same way. I've expressed my feelings many times about (not) depending on Rooks. You get rid of Randolph or he's your starter, period. Guys, he's played well and making him Back Up for a Rook is an insult and unjust. His problems started when his Dad got sick and then died. He was OK before that. I guarantee if you give him limited minutes, the locker room will make 2006-07 look like a tea party and justly so.

Hooch20
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http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonath ... -22nd-3276

-According to an NBA source, super active Minnesota Timberwolves GM David Kahn has offered Mike Miller to the Los Angeles Clippers in exchange for Chris Kaman. The Clippers shot down that trade, but countered with Marcus Camby.

cgorac
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get the 6th pick of minny

The_Clippers
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I am sorry but I dont know where you learned math but Randolph was aquired after the OKC thunder game the clippers second win of the season. So that would be 2 up to 19 . How ever I thank that Randolph did not play in some of the games that we won after aquireing him.

SamMays
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Given how poorly he played and how little effort he put into last season, both on the court and in terms of keeping his weight down and getting in shape, he has nowhere to go but up. Imagine a professional athlete having to do Jenny Craig a month before the season to lose some weight for the start of training camp. To me that was indicative of Baron's overall attitude... I prefer somebody who lives and breathes basketball... Not someone who's capable of seeing conditioning as an afterthought, or thinking he can fool everyone by losing some quick pounds.

clipperstown
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WTF!!!!!!!!!!!! i would do thAT deal in a heartbeat. millers 10 mil contract is up after this season, and so is cambys, and so is ricky d's, so thats like 22 mil right there!!!!!!!!!! wow we had a chance to ge trid of kaman and we didnt! how bout if the clipps counter it, with kaman and minnys future pick(give them the pick back) and they give us the 6th pick for this year.

SamMays
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The_Clippers wrote:
SamMays wrote:

But oh yea, he won us some games last year... Turned us from 14 all the way up to 19

I am sorry but I dont know where you learned math but Randolph was aquired after the OKC thunder game the clippers second win of the season. So that would be 2 up to 19 . How ever I thank that Randolph did not play in some of the games that we won after aquireing him.

Just giving him the benefit of the doubt... I was making the supposition that without him we would have won about 14 games...

And I learned my math in the public school system where I was an excellent student all the way up to Algebra II, at which point it started to pass over my head.

clipper*joe
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SamMays wrote:
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As much crap as i have given him, I think he is the most capable player on this team to improve for next season. I still think he can turn us around.

Given how poorly he played and how little effort he put into last season, both on the court and in terms of keeping his weight down and getting in shape, he has nowhere to go but up. Imagine a professional athlete having to do Jenny Craig a month before the season to lose some weight for the start of training camp. To me that was indicative of Baron's overall attitude... I prefer somebody who lives and breathes basketball... Not someone who's capable of seeing conditioning as an afterthought, or thinking he can fool everyone by losing some quick pounds.

I personally don't think he tried to "fool" anyone by losing the weight. I think that was more for him than anything. But I do agree with you, Jenny Craig isn't a diet an athlete wants incorporate into his conditioning.

Clipper Nation didn't care what weight he was in and his weight wasn't a factor to anyone when he signed with us. I don't remember one article where they were concerned about baron's shape coming into training camp. I know everyone here was just glad to have him sign with us.

I'm not sure who you think he was trying to fool?

SamMays
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Well, I think he was trying to fool himself mostly. Making himself believe that coming it at a certain weight was a good enough substitute for conditioning hard in the off-season. His weight has ballooned several times during his career, indicating that he hasn't been dedicated to conditioning since coming into the league... That he's been the sort to cruise through on talent and hasn't really tried as hard to improve as he could... Perhaps at 23, you can get away with that. At 30, it's another story.

And, yes, I was very happy when we got him. Of course, I'd only seen him play a handful of games prior to last season and was overly optimistic, focusing on his positives and ignoring the negatives. I wanted him to succeed. I saw virtually every game last year and have come away with a much different view of him as a player... In hindsight (always 20-20) I would not give him the contact we gave him. I don't think he's worth it. I don't think he has the follow-through to be the leader he thinks he is. I don't think he's a team first player. I know his game, and his personality much better than I did at this time a year ago.

Kaman, to make the converse example, has also not been worth the money. Still, I would keep him over Davis, because when healthy I think Kaman is worth his contract. His problems have been injury, which hasn't been his fault. Baron's problems, I think, largely are self-made. That makes me very dubious about giving him a lot of money over the next four years. Even if he has a great year this year, I no longer have confidence he'll show up in shape the following year... or the one after.

sunnydrew3
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Yeah I saw this earlier today. I think I need a pick of some sort from Minnesota in this deal for it to go through if we are trading kaman and then i still dont know if i do it. i would trade camby for miller straight up on draft night only if nothing better came along.

i know mike miller isnt the youngest anymore, but he is a good shooter who gives us depth at SF and provides some competition for Al.

SamMays
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Minny seems like they really want to make some moves... The have Love and Jefferson who both play PF (neither appears to be Center material)... They are rumored to be willing to move Love for the # 2 pick, which would bring them Rubio. If they can add a center of Kaman's ability, while keeping their # 6 pick, they will be well set up for the future... I would trade kaman for Miller and their # 6, but not Miller alone...

Hooch20
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Mike Miller would give us a shooter and an expiring contact. If we turned this deal down there has to be something better on the table.

Maybe the Wolves swap Love for the 2nd pick, then we swap Kaman and the Minny future for Miller and the 6th.

sunnydrew3
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I dont see us getting rid of that future minny pick. minny is still a few years away from being good, so if we can get lucky when that pick is unprotected in a deep draft that will be a really valuable piece.

I think kaman for miller and #6 is asking too much, but something close to that might be more of a steal for us if it is possible.

I think we might be trading kaman draft night though- the grizz, okc, minny and even washington could all use a guy like kaman- maybe we get in on some sort of deal for a high draft pick.

ekker3
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i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

seanrooks
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THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

journeyman
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Miller for Kaman doesn't seem all that enticing. It would be too much of a salary dump. Kaman should be able to bring in more value if they wait.

clipper*joe
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seanrooks wrote:
ekker3 wrote:

i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

Stop making sense! wink

sunnydrew3
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clipper*joe wrote:
seanrooks wrote:
ekker3 wrote:

i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

Stop making sense! wink

It does make sense and I agree those guys should not be a group of "bigs" In the west, PF and C need to be completely different positions. As exciting as it might be to make a draft day trade, what happens to us in a few years if we dont have Kaman, Camby retires, and DeAndre isnt ready? Then we have nothing at all at the C position, probably have a mediocre team, and at that point might not have enough incentive for guys like Griffin and Gordon to want to resign.

If we are really trading Kaman, the organization must know something we dont know or have a good plan layed out for what they will do with our future these next few years. Maybe DeAndre is ready for bigger minutes? If we trade a Center it really should just be Camby. Kaman fits pretty well with our young core, more so than an aging player like camby does.

illastrate
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seanrooks wrote:
ekker3 wrote:

i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

Easier said than done. Z-Bo is the hardest piece to trade. If we can pull it off, hats off to the FO.

illastrate
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sunnydrew3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
seanrooks wrote:
ekker3 wrote:

i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

Stop making sense! wink

It does make sense and I agree those guys should not be a group of "bigs" In the west, PF and C need to be completely different positions. As exciting as it might be to make a draft day trade, what happens to us in a few years if we dont have Kaman, Camby retires, and DeAndre isnt ready? Then we have nothing at all at the C position, probably have a mediocre team, and at that point might not have enough incentive for guys like Griffin and Gordon to want to resign.

If we are really trading Kaman, the organization must know something we dont know or have a good plan layed out for what they will do with our future these next few years. Maybe DeAndre is ready for bigger minutes? If we trade a Center it really should just be Camby. Kaman fits pretty well with our young core, more so than an aging player like camby does.

I'd love to see DJ step up and contribute more. If we see an improved DJ in summer league with better post moves, defense, etc., then we should give him more minutes.

seanrooks
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i understand randolph is the most difficult piece to trade. however, he is also the only player we should trade. its not like, "we should trade randolph, but if we cant, lets just trade kaman cuz its easier". trading kaman will not help the team unless we get something really good in return, which i doubt we will. furthermore, trading randolph is good for the team even if we get something bad in return. id rather keep kaman and camby and trade randolph for a bag of peanuts than keep randolph and just trade kaman for someone like mike miller because its easier. keep kaman and camby, and trade randolph for anything you can get for him, and everything else will work itself out.

sunnydrew3
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It depends on what the market is like for Randolph and Kaman this week. I doubt anyone takes a gamble on Randolph- hes going to be a valuable expiring next year possibly, maybe even at this years trade deadline. Right now though, Im not so sure.

Kamans market might be different draft night. Im sure a lot of teams might look to make a splash Thursday night and try to trade for Kaman. If Miller is the best we can get, I see us passing on this deal like we did the first time around when they called us. If we can get the #3 pick straight up or something else that the organization sees as being more valuable than Kaman this year, then I think we might see him traded.

The bottom line is though, whether or not you want Kaman on this team, he makes the most sense to keep at C to provide help to the core of Griffin and Gordon. Kaman is a young center who if healthy will look just as good next to Griffin as he did next to Brand a few years ago.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
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votes: 37

you kidding me? As user "MIGUEL" had pointed out before, Rubio hasnt even proved himself in Spain. Why would we ever start a question mark like that. I am not saying i dont think he has potential but he is a project to any team that picks him up. Might be a hsorter project but h wont start no matter where he gets drafted.

Miquel
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clipperboy24 wrote:
NUMB3RFIFTY wrote:
It would be ideal, but we would still have to find a taker for Baron.

You can't draft Rubio and then Not start him

you kidding me? As user "MIGUEL" had pointed out before, Rubio hasnt even proved himself in Spain. Why would we ever start a question mark like that. I am not saying i dont think he has potential but he is a project to any team that picks him up. Might be a hsorter project but h wont start no matter where he gets drafted.

Let's see...I've never said he's a bad player. He's a good player. No doubt about it...He has proved to be one of the best PGs in Spain (which is the same than to say in whole Europe)But not the best. He wasn't chosen in the best starting five in the Spanish league for example. What I see is that everybody is expecting too much for a kid who is 18 years old and who will need some time to adjust his life and his basketball to the USA way.

Drafting him in the first 5 picks is a risky decision. No way he'll be another Korolev since this kind of disasters only can happen in Clipperland but I'm already hearing the Kings expect him to be Jason Williams second part and it's impossible. JWill was unique and if people from Sactown has so high expectations from him they'll be dissapointed

SamMays
CTB MVP X1
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votes: 54

Exactly right...

However, expecting to get a bag of peanuts might still be a bit too steep...

Also, there is no way Rubio is another Korolev... Korolev was on nobody's list but Dunleavy's. He'd done nothing. Rubio is playing against the best players in Europe, has been for 3 years, is still only 18 and is on everyone's list as # 2... Those he's not on it's because of buy out issues, not a lack of talent. He's one of the most proven players out there, much more so than Hill, DeRozan, Jennings and many others.

sunnydrew3
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Here is some incentive not to trade Kaman to the T-Wolves unless we get the better end of the deal or they include the #6 pick- the better we make them, the worse our future 1st from them becomes right?

If they are decent next year and end up with the 13th pick for example, dont we then get it?

However, if they struggle a couple more years and we get their pick unprotected, shouldnt it be a higher pick, hopefully in the top 10 or so?

clippergm
Clipper Starter
Posts: 279
votes: 1

illastrate wrote:
seanrooks wrote:
ekker3 wrote:

i like miller if its for camby.

trading kaman = disaster waiting to happen at center.

THANK YOU!!!! why does nobody understand that to make room for griffin, you need get rid of randolph? i am not saying by any means this is easy to do, z-boat is the most difficult to trade. but i hate when people refer to griffin, kaman, camby and randolph as a collective "big men". kaman plays center, camby can play both, and randolph and griffin are power forwards. kaman does not play power forward, and griffin does not play center, so trading kaman does nothing to help griffin's minutes, unless you plan on starting him or randolph at center. lets just say we do trade kaman, then what? we start camby and...randolph or griffin? you run into the same issue. same goes for if you trade camby. even if we trade both kaman and camby to shrink our "overloaded front court", as they say, we are left starting z-boat at center next to griffin, which could be "disastrous". point is, kaman does not need to go anywhere, nor does camby, the only person who we should be pushing to trade is randolph.

Easier said than done. Z-Bo is the hardest piece to trade. If we can pull it off, hats off to the FO.

Agreed.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4881
votes: 37

Miquel wrote:
clipperboy24 wrote:
NUMB3RFIFTY wrote:
It would be ideal, but we would still have to find a taker for Baron.

You can't draft Rubio and then Not start him

you kidding me? As user "MIGUEL" had pointed out before, Rubio hasnt even proved himself in Spain. Why would we ever start a question mark like that. I am not saying i dont think he has potential but he is a project to any team that picks him up. Might be a hsorter project but h wont start no matter where he gets drafted.

Let's see...I've never said he's a bad player. He's a good player. No doubt about it...He has proved to be one of the best PGs in Spain (which is the same than to say in whole Europe)But not the best. He wasn't chosen in the best starting five in the Spanish league for example. What I see is that everybody is expecting too much for a kid who is 18 years old and who will need some time to adjust his life and his basketball to the USA way.

Drafting him in the first 5 picks is a risky decision. No way he'll be another Korolev since this kind of disasters only can happen in Clipperland but I'm already hearing the Kings expect him to be Jason Williams second part and it's impossible. JWill was unique and if people from Sactown has so high expectations from him they'll be dissapointed

Here are some quotes from you:

Miquel wrote:
clipps04 wrote:
Miquel wrote:
ekker3 wrote:
pg - calderon/rubio

haha. In fact, we could adquire the whole Spain national team...I think they would be much more competitive than those Clippers

If we don't get the first pick I would trade our pick plus another player with a big contract in order to land a proven player who could help us immediatelly

But before that he had some solid games. Especially against Real Madrid. For being labeled a poor shooter his percentages aren't that bad, FG:41% 3P:45%. He's averaging just under 6 assists (5.9) and 2 steals per game. All of this only playing an average of 20 minutes....not too bad. Still gotta see how he finishes out the season. Also do the European players have to go through training camps? Cause then we'd be able to hear how he handled himself against some bigger guards.

No one (at least the top 5 picks) really seem like a sure thing except Griffin, at least at this point.

About the training camps I'm not sure but I guess that yes, they have to go to training camps. When it is said that Ricky hasn't got a good shot is because his shooting mechanic is slow (similar to Jason Kidd) and it causes him problems when he has to create his own shot. Obviously if he's alone he'll score but it's not too often.

Ricky's strong assets are his IQ basketball, that he has developed since he made his debut in ACB when he was a child, and specially his defense: he has long arms and quick hands and it allows him to steal a lot of balls. Offensivelly he reads the game really well and is able to put the ball where it is required in every situation, specially feeding the big men with easy baskets.

Another interesting names in ACB that I consider that they are NBA ready are:

Tiago Splitter :drafted by the Spurs some seasons ago. Strong center with good moves, serious and very tough. He'll be the next TAU product to wear an NBA jersey after: Calderon, Nocioni, Oberto, Scola...

Fran Vazquez :yes, the guy who was drafted by the Magic at the 11th position I think, and afterwards he decided to continue his career in Spain. He's playing really well in Barcelona. Very athletic, long arms...his only lack could be his head. It doesn't seem a very intelligent person and it could be tough for him to adjust to another country, with a different language

Mirza Teletovic :a TAU product too. A power forward with a great shot beyond the arc. He's tremendous from the 3 point line and is very athletic too. He could be a much better version than other PFs that are used to shoot from the long distance like Matt Bonner or even Tim Thomas. He has some problems to be consistent on his game but he's very interesting...I think he's already drafted as well

and this:

Miquel wrote:
As you know I have some doubts on Rubio but with the last games he's having I'm arriving to a conclusion...

He's playing his worst basketball ever right now. I wonder where are the scouts? If there are scouts watching his games I can't understand how his value isn't dropping...Right now, he shouldn't be considered neither a top 5 nor a top 10. So simple.

Definetelly I would look into other players instead of Rubio

thought those were pretty clear. I never said Rubio was a bad player i just said he will not be starting for any team unless they plan on playing all rookies...

I think we agree in that he has shown flashes of extreme talent but he s still young and needs to mature as a player before he can log serious minutes with any team.

clipperboy24
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4881
votes: 37

SamMays wrote:
Quote:

i understand randolph is the most difficult piece to trade. however, he is also the only player we should trade. its not like, "we should trade randolph, but if we cant, lets just trade kaman cuz its easier". trading kaman will not help the team unless we get something really good in return, which i doubt we will. furthermore, trading randolph is good for the team even if we get something bad in return. id rather keep kaman and camby and trade randolph for a bag of peanuts than keep randolph and just trade kaman for someone like mike miller because its easier. keep kaman and camby, and trade randolph for anything you can get for him, and everything else will work itself out.

Exactly right...

However, expecting to get a bag of peanuts might still be a bit too steep...

Also, there is no way Rubio is another Korolev... Korolev was on nobody's list but Dunleavy's. He'd done nothing. Rubio is playing against the best players in Europe, has been for 3 years, is still only 18 and is on everyone's list as # 2... Those he's not on it's because of buy out issues, not a lack of talent. He's one of the most proven players out there, much more so than Hill, DeRozan, Jennings and many others.

how is rubio proven again?

ekker3
CTB MVP X2
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Posts: 7257
votes: 80

clipperboy24 wrote:
SamMays wrote:
Quote:

i understand randolph is the most difficult piece to trade. however, he is also the only player we should trade. its not like, "we should trade randolph, but if we cant, lets just trade kaman cuz its easier". trading kaman will not help the team unless we get something really good in return, which i doubt we will. furthermore, trading randolph is good for the team even if we get something bad in return. id rather keep kaman and camby and trade randolph for a bag of peanuts than keep randolph and just trade kaman for someone like mike miller because its easier. keep kaman and camby, and trade randolph for anything you can get for him, and everything else will work itself out.

Exactly right...

However, expecting to get a bag of peanuts might still be a bit too steep...

Also, there is no way Rubio is another Korolev... Korolev was on nobody's list but Dunleavy's. He'd done nothing. Rubio is playing against the best players in Europe, has been for 3 years, is still only 18 and is on everyone's list as # 2... Those he's not on it's because of buy out issues, not a lack of talent. He's one of the most proven players out there, much more so than Hill, DeRozan, Jennings and many others.

how is rubio proven again?

stop hating Wink

his play, iq, maturity, passing, leadership skills, and vision speak louder than his stats.

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