Backup Center idea ...

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TD
Clipper Rookie
Posts: 73
Location: Peoria, Illinois
votes: 0

How about Tim Thomas for Etan Thomas (Wiz)? Etan has great defensive energy numbers (3.44 blk/48min, 14.5 reb/48min). This would make a very strong middle. Brand may even get more blocks if they try to avoid Etan. Think of this clamp down line-up defensively that could play most of the 2nd unit minutes:

2nd team

Etan Thomas

Brand

Thorton

Q. Ross

B. Knight

Starters

Kamen

Brand

Maggette

Mobley

Cassell

TD
Clipper Rookie
Posts: 73
Location: Peoria, Illinois
votes: 0

Here's another idea that would have a taker - but would it be worth it?

Maggette, T. Thomas & Livvy for Jermaine O'Neal. It works with the salary cap. The resulting line-up.

Starters

O'Neal

Brand

Thorton

Mobley

Cassell

Subs

Kamen

Q. Ross

B. Knight (assuming MLE)

Looks very strong to me. Who do you double team?

Clips84
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 182
votes: 6

Assuming this could work of this deal does happen...(not likely) that the Clippers still have to figure out how they would sign Elton Brand with the kind of salary O'Neal has and second if Livingston is gone, who would be left to take point? Jordan? Diaz? Knight (the issue is in limbo) so I really dont wanna agree with this trade.

B/c if we do end up having O'neal in the line up, do you really think EB would return if he finds out they are getting another big? It might translate to as a message for him to leave? I dunno...but I would not want this trade to happen.

david
Site Admin
Posts: 8493
votes: 42

I think that our 3 pt shooting would suffer in the Thomas for Thomas trade. The interior defense would improve, but we'd lose a good 3 point shooter, so I'm kind of iffy about that one. I'd like it better if it were Aaron Williams + fillers like Korolev & Paul Davis instead. As for Jermaine O'Neal- I'm not so sure about his ability to stay healthy, and I wouldn't feel so comfortable paying $10 million/yr for a backup center in Kaman. The Clippers paid him big $ to start and play important minutes.

thehonoraryfan
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 126
votes: 8


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I agree with David, I don't think we need to give Kaman one more year to see what he can really do before having him as a back-up. Look for him to bounce back and even play better than the 05-06 season. We should hold off on signing/trading for any multi-year big contracts until next season, when the free agent market will be a lot richer with guys like Arenas and Garnett. If we can get a decent point guard to back up Sam and make the Playoffs, I'll be pretty happy. Let's see what guys like Thornton and JJ (if they sign him); maybe Davis will have a game and he can spell minutes for Kaman as the back-up center.

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
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Location: Green Bay, WI
votes: 10

Hey I like the positive comments. Kaman has one bad year and people think he's backup status. He may not be a top tier Center, but he is better than average, and that is a lot in the NBA. I agree that he bounces back.

Sure the production dropped for everyone from the 05-06 to the 06-07 season, but to all of you who think that we are doomed based on those results, are thinking too linear. Growth works in many ways, not just one straight path to the top. I'm excited about this new year cause the hunger should be back, and there's always some good FA's for next year, so if the Clippers fall short, we have options.

TD
Clipper Rookie
Posts: 73
Location: Peoria, Illinois
votes: 0

Great disscussion. I'm interested in what ya'all think we need to be in the finals. IMHO we need a 2nd big that is as tough to guard as Brand. This will force double teams and defenses to collapse and leave shooters open. Thorton, Mobley, Cassell, and even Q Ross & Korelev will thrive in this situation. I just don't think Kamen will ever be that caliber. A strong 3 man crew at the 4/5 is hard to counter. Right now we have Brand, Kamen & Thomas. This is very good, but could go one level better. I also see Thorton as a VERY tough cover 1-on-1, as good as Maggette and more durable. This will only improve by forcing more double down's. Those are my thoughts. I'm actually excited about the Clips regardless. I think this is a 50 win squad if Cassell plays > 65 games, but not likely to go past the 2nd round.

Summary: I think they are a player away from a finals level team, and without an all-star PG, I think they could be strong enough by removing pressure from the perimeter through adding scoring and defensive strength in the lane. I would expect all the perimeter players to get better looks. This is worth a few buckets a game!

david
Site Admin
Posts: 8493
votes: 42

Yeah I agree- we the fans and the front office & coaches all are expecting some sort of performance improvement from most of the players, even including Elton Brand. Injury really plagued the team last season, and you have to think that this year wouldn't be as bad in terms of guys getting hurt (law of averages?)

ClipperPains
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 33
votes: 2

Oh my God! We have regressed considerably! TD I love your optimism, but Cassell is almost 40 we lost our back up PG's, repeat back-up point guards, plural in Livingston, Daniel Ewing and Jason Hart! Livingston was also a HUGE LOSS in regards to our future. Brand is a free agent next season and is going to leave... it hurts, but we have to trade Brand and Cassell and start fresh...you can pick-up your dropping jaws.

If we do this we do need to accomplish a few things

a.) trade for young stars, draft picks and expirinng or close to expiring contracts.

b.) tank the season so that we have a real good shot at a top 3 pick

I have scoured trades, and have seen the Bulls, Nets and Warriors as prime possibilities. The trade that I like is between the Warriors.

Sam Cassell and Elton Brand for Monta Ellis, O'Bryant, Mickael Pietrus (in a sign and trade), Adonal Foyle (who is an almost expiring contract), Sarunas j...(who is an expiring contract) and a first round pick and 2nd round pick next year and a 1st or 2nd round pick in 2010. We could ask for Harrington or Wright, but in all honesty, I like Harrington more so than Wright, but I also like Pietrus and it came down to a cheaper Pietrus over Harrington(who I don't like because he doesn't board), Wright is full of potential, but when you hear whispers of lazy, just stay away. I like Ellis, Pietrus, O'Bryant may have something, and then we're have expiring contracts and picks.

Trading Brand is a shot to the heart, but read is interview.

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
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Location: Green Bay, WI
votes: 10

NO OFFENSE BUT I'M GLAD YOU ARENT THE GM OF THE CLIPPERS. you want to start over ??? are you kidding me??? The Clippers finally got something that WORKS...they've overcome the failure laden past and built a strong foundation from a good pool of players. Teams that win championships dont trade away their core players for young guys with potential...you know what they do??? They put the faith in the players they have, get the most out of them and stick it out through the rough parts. Gary Payton joined a championship team in the Lakers a few years back and he was denied a ring. Jason Williams was becoming a player nobody wanted anymore, Antoine Walker was forever labeled as a slacker...Those 3 players had key roles in the 05-06 Miami Heat championship team. The HEAT could have given up, but they trusted in their team and won a championship. Sure they had Shaq...big deal...we have Elton Brand (he's more versatile, athletic and younger)...Dwayne Wade showed up strong for the Heat...all we need is another player to get hot...or better yet the whole team to work together.

I'm glad NBA teams actually plan, strategize, scout and follow through. Sorry I'm venting a bit. It's the offseason and we're bored.

ClipperPains
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 33
votes: 2

KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen all talents who have no ring. It doesn't always work. Worse... We lose Brand for nothing.

Read his interview in the paper, he strongly hints to opting out of his contract. This is reality. This interview gave me a reality check. I suggest you read it and get one as well. We're going to lose Brand so we might as well trad him now and get something for him. We need to do what Seattle did and rebuild.

It's not what I want to do, but what we have to do. I figure you have every right to be upset, I understand. This is a last resort, but after reading his interview, the last resort is upon us.

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1403
Location: Green Bay, WI
votes: 10

EVERY FREE AGENT IS SUPPOSED TO TEST THE MARKET!!! It's the Wise Business choice...Brand is gonna choose the path that best suits him...he isnt saying one way or the other, he's gonna let this upcoming season determine what his future is. That's what anyone who's playing to win would do.

And one more thing?? how can you tell so much without hearing his actual voice?? Tone tells a heck of a lot, words are not as revealing. You have no idea what he'll do.

thehonoraryfan
Clipper 6th Man
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From a business standpoint, Brand would want to go stay or go to a big city where he can produce his movies (if he continues that), and certainly LA is near the top of that list if not at the top. He could've bolted for Utah or Miami a few seasons ago but money talked and DTS gave him the max contract. I like Brand a lot and believe he CAN be the cornerstone of this team, but at the same time, he needs to prove that this season. He can't be Houdini and disappear in the 4th quarter or not be vocal on the court. He needs to get in the face of guys when they are slacking on D, not hustling, etc. Simply put, no doubt EB can give you 20/10...but he also needs to be a leader, a floor general. And he needs to be a threat when the game is on the line. When was the last time EB took a game winning shot?

I don't think it's time to blow up the team because most of the pieces are there. Plus, whose to say if we get whatever we get for EB, our team will be that much better? Let's see how the first few months of next season goes. I think all the guys have chips on their shoulders, i.e. Cassell to prove everyone he still has gas left in the tank, Kaman to show he's worth that much money, Thornton to show the league it was a mistake to let him slip to #14, and EB to get to that all-star level again.

david
Site Admin
Posts: 8493
votes: 42

I agree thehonoraryfan- and EB admitted in the article himself that he needs to be more of a leader. One thing I did notice is that he was quickly becoming the #1 option at crunch time for the Clippers late last season, so he's definitely improving that aspect of his game.

I think he will stay- I mean unless the team just does horrible. I don't think he insinuated that he was going to leave at all. In fact he said that he liked the current makeup of the team.

ClipperPains
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 33
votes: 2

THfan, you bring up a good point about his movie biz. However I consider it more of a hobby. He said so himself, that he only does it in the offseason. I honestly don't see how he can do his biz while in season (the movie biz is extremely time consuming). Anyways, when I read his interview I took it as he was prepared to go somewhere else when he stated he's young and can still win a ring, but that L.A. did not promise him a ring. It sounded like he wanted to win, and that he may be willing to take a little less money to elsewhere in search of a ring.

I'm scared that if Brand's leaves we get "ZERO" in return because we didn't trade him when we had the chance. If we wait until the trade deadline, I don't want to get milked by teams knowing that we are in a desperate situation.

I think we should do what Seattle did and trade Ray Allen for a combo of picks, pick or young players. Don't you think that Seattle is kicking themselves right now for the fact that THEY LET RASHARD LEWIS GO FOR A CONDITIONAL 2ND round pick. If we wait too long, and wait to trade, we not only decrease our chance of landing an early lottery pick, but decrease the amount of compensation we can receive in return being that we would be in a desperate state.

Young guys provide solid cap management. Brand is $16 million. If we draft 2 young guys that turn out to be superstars, for 3-4 years they will only be getting paid around $4-$8 million combined per year (depending on where they are drafted). Now that's called savings.

Whichever we choose, we have to gamble. We can gamble on a 38 year old PG to help lead us to the playoffs, or then gamble that Brand will resign, or we can gamble on some young talent/ some young talent in the draft, and mind you still have the cap space to sign a superstar. I choose the lottery. I love Scratchers!

david
Site Admin
Posts: 8493
votes: 42

Okay ClipperPains- let's say that by some wild chance that Brand leaves- the Clippers don't in fact get "nothing"- they get some thing vital- cap space! Cap space that could be used to sign another superstar. e.g. KG?

But it seems that you're stuck in this rebuilding mode. We need to go at it again with the current squad and see- this team is not that different from the one that was a game away from the Western Conference finals two seasons ago. That is a fact. Relying on the lottery and draft picks is a risky proposition.

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1403
Location: Green Bay, WI
votes: 10

The fact is: the Clippers missed the playoffs by a little bit, and ClipperPains - you wanna rebuild cuz they regressed a "little"...The only reason to get dissapointed enough to want to rebuild is if you're saying the 05-06 season was the greatest thing ever.

You pessimistic people are sailing towards the treasure...seeing fog and turning the ship around to head back to shore. I'd love to see some of your "trade proposals" and "big name signings" in action and see if it makes a difference...when all you gotta do to win it all - is to WANT it more than everyone else. You can claim that's a hocus pocus saying but it's true in any competition in Life.

ClipperPains
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 33
votes: 2

david i agree we get cap space, but while we're at it, why not get cap space and a 1st round pick? We can trade him get cap space and picks or let him walk and get nothing. By the way, KG coming here is wishful thinking. Rings are his motivation, not so much the money.

david
Site Admin
Posts: 8493
votes: 42

The Clippers would never trade Brand unless he gets disgruntled and makes a public fuss about wanting out. And that's not going to happen with EB. Also even if that happens teams would be chomping at the bit to sign him once he opts out, so why would they waste a draft pick if they have the room to sign him outright? And if it does come to that a sign-n-trade could work with another team that doesn't have enough $.

thehonoraryfan
Clipper 6th Man
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Even in the worst case if EB walks, as David pointed out, that will free up a lot of cap space that they can use on another superstar free agent. I think Brand needs to show that he CAN be the face of this team for another 3-5 years before the organization extends his contract. No doubt EB is one hell of a player but...you think he can take us to that next level the way he's been playing? I have my doubts. Yes he's consistent at 20/10 and is a great defensive player and teammate, but I've yet to see him be a true leader of the team like how Cassell is. I need to see him take this team on his back and dominate all four quarters, heck bust a 20+ point 4th quarter or something...maybe stop being Mr. Nice Guy and start getting into guys' faces when they slack off. I'd definitely want him to stay because he's a great player and pretty much every single player in this league would LOVE to play with him. Never heard a single bad thing about him. Heck, even when Kobe said he'd love to play with EB, that's gotta mean something! I think EB needs a solid point or 2 to help him out, like how Cassell did two seasons ago. No matter how good the big man is, he still needs a guard to compliment him. I was hoping Livingston could play well with EB but I didn't really see that. Cassell and EB works. Plus, if Kaman gets his act together and helps Brand on the low block, I think EB will trust him more and be more inclined to stay knowing Kaman is a legit center. If the team does well this season (make the playoffs and push to get in the 2nd round), no reason for him to want to leave...the thing is, can this team improve?

clipper*joe
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Elton Brand doesn't hint at optng out of his contract. He just said he is leaving his options open... Great business sense. This can also mean he is hinting at BIG BUCKS. Can Hate on him for that . Plus His prod. Co. Gibralter Ent. is located here in L.A.. If he is a business man he would want to stay close to his side projects. Where is the the capital of the movie business.....Hollywood. I also think he is calling out his team mates to get their s#*t together this coming season. Can't blame him for that especially since he first made it known back at last season's Sunday massacre against Sacramento.... How that hurt!

I think it all depends on how the Clippers do this coming season whether EB will return.

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1403
Location: Green Bay, WI
votes: 10

""I think it all depends on how the Clippers do this coming season whether EB will return.""

Thats exactly it!

thehonoraryfan
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 126
votes: 8

Well the improvement of the Clipps will start with EB himself. If he deserves the big bucks, then he needs to prove it. Not only put up good numbers but I think his two biggest weaknesses are disappearing in the 4th quarter and not being a vocal leader. Lead by example EB!

toohipcliptoslip
CTB MVP X1
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Oh ye of little faith. Remember last year wasn't an ordinary year but a cluster**** rivaled only by the Malone-Peyton Lakers. Dumbleavy started Shaun who often missed the backboard and Q, in other words two guys they didn't have to guard. They tanked half a season of away games. There was the Mikey-Corey thing and rumors of a trade. Kayman took a vacation. Two point guards were hurt and Sam played only 60%. EB had tired legs. So bad that Doug Christie left. But chemistry set in. They broke the Utah jinx almost beat Houston twice, broke the King's home jinx and SHOULD HAVE made the playoffs except for a tank by us and a tank by Dallas. All this without a center and with a pick up point guard and this was after screwing up the first half of the season. You sell our guys short. Trade Corey? Guys, Corey's been challenged and he's going to be a monster this year. (also he wants a big contract) We need the Caiman to show up. We need to be major injury free. We need a starting PG (BK) and we need JJ to step up because BK and SC are walking injuries. We need another rook (Thornton ) to show and offense from Q would be gravy. Most of these are as likely to happen as not. If we get the majority we win JL's 45 and the West can kiss my RED WHITE AND BLUE a**

toohipcliptoslip
CTB MVP X1
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Sorry, I got so involved in my rant that I forgot the thread. Trading EB is nuts. As far as leadership, he told us where the buck stopped - with him and after the last tank he was the one taking names. NO EB, NO TEAM. If we don't do well in the 2nd round, EB, as well as SC and Shaun won't be here nxt yr and we'll have all kinda cap space. It'll be Clippers 1985 No one good will want to be here

jlemmen43
Clipper All-Star
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Location: Green Bay, WI
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you bring up some very good points!

david
Site Admin
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Well said- and I have a feeling he's going to come back with a vengence. He's already hinting at it. It's also kind of his "contract year" since he can opt out after the season.

david
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I agree toohip- those are certainly a lot of reasons why the team didn't do as well last season. And yeah that tank by Dallas still bugs me. I'm sure that Dunleavy will remember it well too.

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