Caron Butler Might Be Traded For Marcus Camby?!? (P. 2)

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Jhay_Kidd#3
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rollingkiwi92 wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
rollingkiwi92 wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
No Way!!! This Would Be A Bad Trade!!! It's funny how many people here think soo highly of Caron Butler and at the same time disappointing that people here are even willing to spend our cap money for this summer on him!!! In my opinion i think that he's a little Overrated!!! I Love what Camby does for this team and I'd much rather keep Him than have Butler (In addition Camby always gives it his best in each and every game, he doesn't need the ball to be effective because he does all the dirty work that many players don't do)!!! Wake Up People we're talking about the 2010 Off-Season here!!! The BIGGEST Off-Season Ever with soo many Talented free agents all around!!! No Way We Screw This Up!!!

^^its not like all the free agents are gonna want to move. odds are, more than half are gonna stay with their team. LBJ and wade are a pipe dream at best. why would wade want to go to LA when he could go to chicago where its his hometown, and they have the next big thing in Drose? bosh would probably rather go to houseon (his hometown) or join up with wade or lebron to go for a championship. joe johnson has a pretty good situation in atlanta, and atlanta has a better roster than us plus, they holdhis bird rights. rudy gay is a restricted FA and i would be hesitant to pay him more that 10 million (he turned down 10 million from the grizz). ray allen wouldnt even dare to go near us cause he wants a championship. stoudemire, would want to either re-upp with the suns, or join wade or lebron, plus, we don't have a need for amare.

so when we're looking at the free agency of 10', what are we REALLY looking at? shaq? T-mac? inverson? jermaine o'neal? ginobli? boozer? all those guys are either injury prone, past their prime, or not a need to our team. we NEED an upgrade at the SF, and i think butler is good cause he has a good all around game. plus, if we trade for butler, we still have some cap space left over from the expiring contracts of rasual butler, smith, ricky, smith, skinner, novak, and rush. we also have our MLE. both are enough to deepen our bench. we could have thornton as our sixth man and get other role players to go with thornton and telfair.

^^^ Hahahaha!!! so with what you're telling me is that we basically cleard up cap room for nothing right? because you're already assuming that we aren't capable of landing any of those guys!!! i mean back when Baron was a free agent nobody ever thought he would want to play for the Clips especially after our bad season that year but Guess what? He's playing for us and to top it off, Baron was Balling that year!!! Dude with so many talented free agents this year it's better to at least try than to assume that nobody will wanna play here!!! (You can't change the fact that this is still Los Angeles)

just because its los angeles, dosent mean that players will go just like that (i snapped my fingers Very Happy). its true that baron signed with us, but if you look back at that time, the only two teams with cap space were memphis and us. baron even said his first choice was new york, but they didnt want to sign him to a milti-year deal. and if you look back at our fee agent history, baron is the best signing we EVER had. after baron, its cuttino mobley. even players when we re-signed didnt want to stay. odom bolted, darius miles bolted, when there was that offseason where maggette and brand were free agents, brand basically begged the clippers to not re-sign him. but we did, and he ended up bolting like 5 or 6 years later. the point im getting across is that although LA is a bit time place to play, players also look at our FO and see that its crap. our team has a history of losing and that affects players decision by ALOT.

Odom Sucks so i don't care. Miles was whatever... i can't really blame brand for leaving, he did his best for this team. Considering that Maggette was a fan favorite it sucks to say that the Clips never gave Maggette a chance to resign. Well if the Clips can finish up the season strong we can obviously have a better chance of landing one of these talented free agent this year. Plus out of all the teams that have money this off-season, we are probably one with the most talent!!! Baron. Gordon . Griffin!!! and hopefully Kaman can stay consistent!!!

sz123456
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Holy Moly I hope we don't pull the trigger on this deal! We have MORE than enough talent on this roster, if anything we have too much. Our two biggest concerns have always been health and chemistry, and we're finally getting both, why would we want to change that? Once Griffin comes back and we see how he opens up the floor for everyone by commanding attention, we will laugh at the idea of this Caron Butler trade.

TheDude
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
^^^Your Options are kinda Foolish!!! LoL... How much exactly would you spend on Joe Johnson? (I believe if we sign Johnson, we will have some money left over to sign some of our free agents)... Anyways, Joe Johnson is a MUCH better player than Caron Butler!!! Are you kidding me Camby going to the Lakers? LOL!!! Lakers are Wayy Over there Salary Cap!!! We would have a better shot at resigning him Sir!!!

I'm still trying to figure out why they are foolish.

We stand to have around 14 million to spend. Johnson's going to cost at least that. He turned down a great offer from the Hawks this year and we already know he likes cash. There are a ton of teams out there with money to spend so we'd most likely have to get into a bidding war with team like the Knicks, Nets, Bulls, and Hawks to name a few.

If we end up spending that 14 million on Johnson, we're done spending. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that our own players will have a cap hold and to sign Johnson we'd have to renounce their rights. By doing that we can no longer go over the cap to sign them. We'd have to sign guys that would play for the veterans minimum. We'd also have to trade our 1st round pick since that pick would have a cap hold of about 2 million. Our depth would suck.

Camby may not go to the Lakers, but it does make some sense to me. Camby would fit in very nicely with them. The Lakers are over the cap, but since they start over the cap they would have the MLE to spend. They would be in the same position as the Celtics are with Rasheed Wallace. They could offer him a two or three year deal for the MLE or a little less. The Lakers also have Farmar and Morrison coming off of the books so they will have money to spend. This would also enable to Camby to keep his family in town and we know he doesn't like moving around. Camby would also get to contend for a title.

Tell me again how this doesn't make sense.

First of all we aren't really sure of how much exactly we're going to have this off-season and if you do know please do tell... secondl, I don't think that the Laker will be looking for another big man this off-seeason, what they need is a point guard. (there front court rotation is already pretty solid)

Jhay, using a lot of exclamation points does not make what you say true. I know this has always been your strategy in your posts but you usually make zero sense.

The reason Hooch says we'll have 14mil in cap space this summer is because that is the truth. It could be as low as 12mil depending on where they set the cap but you make it sound like these numbers are some kind of great mystery. Salary figures for all teams are public information. You can look it up yourself and see that he is right.

Hooch says to sign Joe Johnson will take the majority of our 12-14mil in cap space and we won't be able to sign our own expiring guys back because we'll have to waive the bird rights to resign guys beyond the cap.

Your response to this is "You are foolish LOL!!!!!!" Sorry dude, these are simple facts that everyone but you knows. I would add some exclamation points, abbreviations, and all caps to this so to speak your language but hopefully you can understand it like this.

Regarding resigning Camby, the truth is, after we waive rights to our existing players and sign a big time free agent, we will have exactly the same chance to get Camby to sign with us as every other team in the league. Anyone can offer the midlevel...including the Lakers (who by the way, have some guy named DJ Mbenga as their back up Center this season)...I think they might have a little bit of interest in this guy. Not worth a "you are foolish" response....Actually pretty foolish on your part to write that.

Hooch20
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If we drop under the cap to sign a free agent we lose our MLE. The only way we sign guys after that is the veterans minimum and the bi-annaul exception. We'd most likely have to trade our draft pick as well.

I'm beginning to think that doing something now is really the best chance to improve our team. If we're able to land LeBron or Wade then that is fine. If I had to choose Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay and no depth or Caron Butler and depth, I'd take Butler and depth.

TheDude
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Sorry but aren't you the guy that spends 90% of his posts spouting brilliance such as "ROFL KAMAN!!! SUCKS!!!!! LOL!!!"

Now you say we have the best talent with BD, EG, Griffin, and KAMAN? So did you finally watch your first game of the season and realize Kaman is the best damn center in the western conference?

TheDude
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The one thing we don't lose in this situation is the midlevel. You never lose the midlevel exception. After you reach the cap, you can always use this every year. You do however lose the chance to resign Sool, Smith, Camby, Ricky ect. for anything beyond the vet's minimums.

If we go for the big timer and spend all our space. We will lose all but one of those guys. We can sign one with the midlevel, hopefully Camby, the rest will go elsewhere.

But what you say is true about doing something now. I've been a proponent of this all along. Better to move Camby for a baller at the wing, I've always like Prince for this trade but Caron is not a terrible idea. This way, we can keep the rest of the entire team together over the summer and take the guesswork out of the free agency thing. We could keep our whole team intact and try to get Camby to come back afterwards for the 5mil midlevel. It's the safest and maybe best option for us if we believe in the team as constructed.

Hooch20
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TheDude wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
If we drop under the cap to sign a free agent we lose our MLE. The only way we sign guys after that is the veterans minimum and the bi-annaul exception. We'd most likely have to trade our draft pick as well.

I'm beginning to think that doing something now is really the best chance to improve our team. If we're able to land LeBron or Wade then that is fine. If I had to choose Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay and no depth or Caron Butler and depth, I'd take Butler and depth.

The one thing we don't lose in this situation is the midlevel. You never lose the midlevel exception. After you reach the cap, you can always use this every year. You do however lose the chance to resign Sool, Smith, Camby, Ricky ect. for anything beyond the vet's minimums.

If we go for the big timer and spend all our space. We will lose all but one of those guys. We can sign one with the midlevel, hopefully Camby, the rest will go elsewhere.

We do lose the MLE. Once you drop below the cap you lose it. If we end up signing a player that pushes us back to the cap limit we don't regain it. We'll get it back the year after, but that's it. You can't have both the MLE and cap space that is more than the MLE.

TheDude
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Hooch20 wrote:
TheDude wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
If we drop under the cap to sign a free agent we lose our MLE. The only way we sign guys after that is the veterans minimum and the bi-annaul exception. We'd most likely have to trade our draft pick as well.

I'm beginning to think that doing something now is really the best chance to improve our team. If we're able to land LeBron or Wade then that is fine. If I had to choose Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay and no depth or Caron Butler and depth, I'd take Butler and depth.

The one thing we don't lose in this situation is the midlevel. You never lose the midlevel exception. After you reach the cap, you can always use this every year. You do however lose the chance to resign Sool, Smith, Camby, Ricky ect. for anything beyond the vet's minimums.

If we go for the big timer and spend all our space. We will lose all but one of those guys. We can sign one with the midlevel, hopefully Camby, the rest will go elsewhere.

We do lose the MLE. Once you drop below the cap you lose it. If we end up signing a player that pushes us back to the cap limit we don't regain it. We'll get it back the year after, but that's it. You can't have both the MLE and cap space that is more than the MLE.

Ether pointed me to this site as he was proving me wrong in a similar discussion. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q19

That doesn't say anything about losing the right to midlevel if you go under the cap.

Here below is what Wiki says which more specific to what we're talking about...

Mid-Level Exception

A team is allowed to sign one player to a contract equal to the average NBA salary, even if the team is over the salary cap already, or if the signing would put them over the cap. This is known as the Mid-level exception (MLE). The MLE may be used on an individual free agent or split among multiple free agents, and is available to any team that exceeds the salary cap at the beginning of the offseason. The Mid-Level Exception for the 2008-09 NBA season was $5.585 million.[2] The MLE is $5.854 million for the 2009-10 NBA regular season.[3]

jtwinnaz
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the trade rumor might just be a rumor...

Camby and Dunleavy said a Washington Post report of a rumor that the Washington Wizards might be interested in trading forward Caron Butler for Camby was news to both of them. . . .

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-cli ... 4678.story

SamMays
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^^^ But what else are they going to say?... Few GM's admit to what is being said regarding trades because the vast majority of trades that are discussed never happen. I don't think this deal is going to happen, or not going to happen... it could happen, but so could a lot of other things we've never even heard about... And, in the end, most of them don't happen.

Jhay_Kidd#3
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TheDude wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Odom Sucks so i don't care. Miles was whatever... i can't really blame brand for leaving, he did his best for this team. Considering that Maggette was a fan favorite it sucks to say that the Clips never gave Maggette a chance to resign. Well if the Clips can finish up the season strong we can obviously have a better chance of landing one of these talented free agent this year. Plus out of all the teams that have money this off-season, we are probably one with the most talent!!! Baron. Gordon . Griffin!!! and hopefully Kaman can stay consistent!!!

Sorry but aren't you the guy that spends 90% of his posts spouting brilliance such as "ROFL KAMAN!!! SUCKS!!!!! LOL!!!"

Now you say we have the best talent with BD, EG, Griffin, and KAMAN? So did you finally watch your first game of the season and realize Kaman is the best damn center in the western conference?

hahaha... I've watch too many Clipper games to have my doubts on Kaman but from the way you speak of him, it seems as if this is your for season with this team!!! If you didn't notice i put a period and said HOPEFULLY Kaman can stay consistent!!! but if we get a good offer for him I'd be more than happy t trade him!!! Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!! with all the money the clips are paying him it's the least he can do... but don't get me wrong I'd still look to trade him before the trade deadline while his value is on the rise again...

clipper*joe
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Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Lebron2clips2010
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Kaman's offensive game is very solid this season, his turnover's are still a bit of a problem but overall I'd say he is the best back to the back center currently playing... depending on if you consider Duncan or any of the "forwards' centers. With how many Iso plays Dunleavy runs for Kaman, I'd have to agree with Joe that 2-3 assists from Baron is even a liberal guess. My complaint with Kaman are his defensive lapses, he is often times slow to get back misses rotations and often times seems utterly lost. Camby helps nullify the issue a bit but after this season if we are going to continue with Chris as our center of the future he really needs to work on his defense.

clipper*joe
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I think we can all agree that Kaman's ultimate sin is his problems with TO's and lapses on the defensive end.

Lebron2clips2010
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The To's I can kind of live with because he has been so efficient scoring the basketball but the lapses really baffle me. What eludes me is the fact that Dunleavy claims over and over that he is a defensive coach yet he never seems to get the most out of players on the defensive end, and I've never seen him reprimand a player in anyway for their defensive mistakes...

Afm
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Kamans ability to consistently hit that 15-20ft jumper is making him lethal as a post player. His greatest strength was that he could always finish with either hand at the rim. Now he's hitting midrange jumpers with ease. He should be an all star without question.

and i also dont think Butler for Camby would benifit the clippers

Jhay_Kidd#3
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clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

TheDude
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

He doesn't blow very many and a lot of these assists that Baron gets with Kaman are simple passes to the high post where Kaman creates a 15footer with a drive fake. yes, Baron gets him some easy ones but Kaman also bails out Baron many times by catching tough passes in difficult spots and still converts.

The guy was off today and still went for 22pts and 14boards. I'll take this guy over any center in the west.

TheCalmInsanity
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It's tough to imagine what kind of game Kaman would have had if he made HALF his jump shots against Miami...

I don't remember him making ANYTHING outside of 2 feet today, other than free throws. He only made layups and dunks, and missed maybe 10 jump shots. It's insane to think of how much more he could have scored if his jumper was as smooth as usual.

clipperloyal11
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TheDude wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

He doesn't blow very many and a lot of these assists that Baron gets with Kaman are simple passes to the high post where Kaman creates a 15footer with a drive fake. yes, Baron gets him some easy ones but Kaman also bails out Baron many times by catching tough passes in difficult spots and still converts.

The guy was off today and still went for 22pts and 14boards. I'll take this guy over any center in the west.

Yeah, honestly, Kaman's points have been mostly from Baron doing most of the work and setting him up. At the beginning of the season it wasn't, but lately it has.

clipperloyal11
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Also, the Camby for Caron trade should be a big No-No. What Camby does is very rare in the NBA. Can hit jumpshots, goes for every rebound like his life depended on it, HUSTLES, blocks shots, and is a great passer for his position. Not to mention that he can handle the ball a bit as we see when he drives the lane from the outside.

Jhay_Kidd#3
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TheDude wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

He doesn't blow very many and a lot of these assists that Baron gets with Kaman are simple passes to the high post where Kaman creates a 15footer with a drive fake. yes, Baron gets him some easy ones but Kaman also bails out Baron many times by catching tough passes in difficult spots and still converts.

The guy was off today and still went for 22pts and 14boards. I'll take this guy over any center in the west.

hahaha!!! kaman bails baron out by catching his passes? his passes are simple? Dude do you watch the came? Baron makes direct passes that are right on target so please don't give me that crap!!! Take todays game, while baron was on the bench kaman sucked out there!!! lets just say baron makes thinks a lot easier for kaman and eveyone out there when hes on the court!!! He see's the whole floor and has quick ans direct passes that hit his target most of the time!!! If you didn't know, Baron is one of the best play makers in the NBA and let me tell you, there aren't many out there!!!

Jhay_Kidd#3
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clipperloyal11 wrote:
TheDude wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

He doesn't blow very many and a lot of these assists that Baron gets with Kaman are simple passes to the high post where Kaman creates a 15footer with a drive fake. yes, Baron gets him some easy ones but Kaman also bails out Baron many times by catching tough passes in difficult spots and still converts.

The guy was off today and still went for 22pts and 14boards. I'll take this guy over any center in the west.

Yeah, honestly, Kaman's points have been mostly from Baron doing most of the work and setting him up. At the beginning of the season it wasn't, but lately it has.

Thank you!!! Finally someone who watches the same game i do!!!

Even Before, Baron always use to feed him down low! the difference between now and the past is that kaman is growing more accustomed to barons pla ymaking ability as compared to earlier this season kaman never saw the passes coming!!!

hahaha!!! kaman bails baron out by catching his passes? his passes are simple? Dude do you watch the came? Baron makes direct passes that are right on target so please don't give me that crap!!! Take todays game, while baron was on the bench kaman sucked out there!!! lets just say baron makes thinks a lot easier for kaman and eveyone out there when hes on the court!!! He see's the whole floor and has quick ans direct passes that hit his target most of the time!!! If you didn't know, Baron is one of the best play makers in the NBA and let me tell you, there aren't many out there that can do that!!!

clipperstown
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no i do not agree. kaman can set himself up many times by himself and get the same amount of points that he would have if baron was giving the assist. if he doesnt get the Bdiddy assist, then he'll just come back next possession and do one of his nice hook shots with either hand. however other centers HAVE to have other set up for them. kaman is basically saying that "you can give me the assist, and we both win, or i can score bymyself, and i get teh advantage". bynum would be like "gimme the damn assist or neither of us get an assist or basket"

clipperloyal11
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okay, so Kaman is one of the best centers in the league, no question. he's one of the few that has a legit jumpshot, has post moves, a big build to defend big centers, and is amphibious to help him use both hands for hook shots. (joke)

But let's face it, Kaman would not be averaging this many points if he didn't take so many shots of if Baron wasn't here setting him up on half of his points. I'm glad Kaman is our center, but I think on any other team where they have a mediocre point guard which forces Kaman to work for pretty much all of his points, I'm pretty sure he would have a lot of games like this one. (having more field goal attempts than points while shooting a disappointing 10-24 from the field)

Now when his jumpshot is on (which it hasn't been lately), it's a differnet story. He doesn't need Baron to set him up for all his points. But since its off, he's relying on Baron for pretty much all his points.

Of course he'll have the occassional great plays like those nice spin moves leading to a nice hook shot, which separates him from other centers in the league, but Baron plays a big part in how Kaman does.

Jhay_Kidd#3
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Not Surprise!!! You've never had!!! Dude i think you're missing the point!!! Yes kaman can create his own shot but he would probably end up with a low field goal %, would have to work way harder and have to take tougher shots which again resoles to bad shots and a bad field goal (This is apparent when baron is on the bench, Kaman has a harder time out there)!!! What i'm trying to say is that baron makes his job a WHOLE LOT EASIER and sets him up for an easier basket rather that a difficult one!!! Baron makes kaman job a WHOLE LOT EASIER!!!

TheDude
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipperstown wrote:
no i do not agree. kaman can set himself up many times by himself and get the same amount of points that he would have if baron was giving the assist. if he doesnt get the Bdiddy assist, then he'll just come back next possession and do one of his nice hook shots with either hand. however other centers HAVE to have other set up for them. kaman is basically saying that "you can give me the assist, and we both win, or i can score bymyself, and i get teh advantage". bynum would be like "gimme the damn assist or neither of us get an assist or basket"

Not Surprise!!! You've never had!!! Dude i think you're missing the point!!! Yes kaman can create his own shot but he would probably end up with a low field goal %, would have to work way harder and have to take tougher shots which again resoles to bad shots and a bad field goal (This is apparent when baron is on the bench, Kaman has a harder time out there)!!! What i'm trying to say is that baron makes his job a WHOLE LOT EASIER and sets him up for an easier basket rather that a difficult one!!! Baron makes kaman job a WHOLE LOT EASIER!!!

Yah I guess Tim Duncan, David West, Dwight Howard, Dirk, Carlos Boozer, and Amare all suck too! I never realized you suck if your PG can pass you the ball.

Learn something new every day.

TheDude
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipperloyal11 wrote:
TheDude wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

He doesn't blow very many and a lot of these assists that Baron gets with Kaman are simple passes to the high post where Kaman creates a 15footer with a drive fake. yes, Baron gets him some easy ones but Kaman also bails out Baron many times by catching tough passes in difficult spots and still converts.

The guy was off today and still went for 22pts and 14boards. I'll take this guy over any center in the west.

Yeah, honestly, Kaman's points have been mostly from Baron doing most of the work and setting him up. At the beginning of the season it wasn't, but lately it has.

Thank you!!! Finally someone who watches the same game i do!!!

Even Before, Baron always use to feed him down low! the difference between now and the past is that kaman is growing more accustomed to barons pla ymaking ability as compared to earlier this season kaman never saw the passes coming!!!

hahaha!!! kaman bails baron out by catching his passes? his passes are simple? Dude do you watch the came? Baron makes direct passes that are right on target so please don't give me that crap!!! Take todays game, while baron was on the bench kaman sucked out there!!! lets just say baron makes thinks a lot easier for kaman and eveyone out there when hes on the court!!! He see's the whole floor and has quick ans direct passes that hit his target most of the time!!! If you didn't know, Baron is one of the best play makers in the NBA and let me tell you, there aren't many out there that can do that!!!

Yah I do watch the cames. Baron does some great things and he also has a number of TOs every game. There would be more if Kaman didn't have such great hands.

The guy has had two straight semi-off shooting nights. For the majority of the season Kaman has been undoubtedly the most consistent offensive threat on our team. Has he been outplayed by the opposing center more than once all year? If we didn't have him, who would you rather have as your center? (Other than your man-crush Howard)

Even these two off games he gets his 20pts. Let me tell you, there aren't that many centers in the league that can do that.

clipperstown
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipperstown wrote:
no i do not agree. kaman can set himself up many times by himself and get the same amount of points that he would have if baron was giving the assist. if he doesnt get the Bdiddy assist, then he'll just come back next possession and do one of his nice hook shots with either hand. however other centers HAVE to have other set up for them. kaman is basically saying that "you can give me the assist, and we both win, or i can score bymyself, and i get teh advantage". bynum would be like "gimme the damn assist or neither of us get an assist or basket"

Not Surprise!!! You've never had!!! Dude i think you're missing the point!!! Yes kaman can create his own shot but he would probably end up with a low field goal %, would have to work way harder and have to take tougher shots which again resoles to bad shots and a bad field goal (This is apparent when baron is on the bench, Kaman has a harder time out there)!!! What i'm trying to say is that baron makes his job a WHOLE LOT EASIER and sets him up for an easier basket rather that a difficult one!!! Baron makes kaman job a WHOLE LOT EASIER!!!

dude of course baron makes his job easier, that's his job. i completely agree with you there. i love baron as a player, he has great court vision, top 3 in the NBA. but what i am saying is, if there wasn't baron, kaman would still get his 20 and 9, but other centers wouldn't be able to do that because they are not skilled like kaman, they are just strong.

clipper*joe
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You mean ambidextrous, right?

clipper*joe
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Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
Jhay_Kidd#3 wrote:

Kaman has been productive but most of it is because of baron setting him up for easy baskets!!!

Um,no...most of Kaman's points come from outside shooting and creating his own shot. If a guy is averaging 20 points a game and Baron is averaging 8 assists a game, that would mean that Baron is not only short on assists, but that would mean he doesn't feed anyone else. I'd say that Baron averages 2-3 assists a game towards Kaman...but then again, most Centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post.

Umm... Your're kidding me right? just two or three, Seriously? It's true that most centers in the league depend on others to feed them in the post... i just don't agree with the two or three assist towards Kaman... you're looking at the average assist per game, pay attention to the attempts (the number of plays he sets him up with). If you watch the game you'll see how many times Baron sets up Kaman for an easy basket and notice how Kaman blows them!!!

No, I'm not kidding.

And yes, I am using averages...since your statement was a general statement.

If you made a general statement, then you will get a general answer. If you were talking about one game, then I would have answered it correctly but since you were not specific, my answer fits the context of your statement.

But I will say that there are games where kaman is dependent on Baron fgor his stats but for the most part, I don't see it more than a few a game...ON AVERAGE.

clipperloyal11
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clipper*joe wrote:
clipperloyal11 wrote:
okay, so Kaman is one of the best centers in the league, no question. he's one of the few that has a legit jumpshot, has post moves, a big build to defend big centers, and is amphibious to help him use both hands for hook shots. (joke)

But let's face it, Kaman would not be averaging this many points if he didn't take so many shots of if Baron wasn't here setting him up on half of his points. I'm glad Kaman is our center, but I think on any other team where they have a mediocre point guard which forces Kaman to work for pretty much all of his points, I'm pretty sure he would have a lot of games like this one. (having more field goal attempts than points while shooting a disappointing 10-24 from the field)

Now when his jumpshot is on (which it hasn't been lately), it's a differnet story. He doesn't need Baron to set him up for all his points. But since its off, he's relying on Baron for pretty much all his points.

Of course he'll have the occassional great plays like those nice spin moves leading to a nice hook shot, which separates him from other centers in the league, but Baron plays a big part in how Kaman does.

You mean ambidextrous, right?

Yes. Just threw in a little joke, guess I should've been more clear on that. roll

garrettwickman
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camby is a stud andh e gives us so many extra possessions. id rather have him than caron

SamMays
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Baron and Kaman have learned to work well together. Kaman does a nice job moving without the ball and Baron does a nice job finding him. It's become a very good combination.

I love Camby, but I would do the Camby for Caron trade for two reasons. 1) Camby is a free agent in three months, which means we might lose him for nothing (I don't buy that we're getting Lebron or Wade and Caron is a great second choice. We might also be able to get Camby back in July... 2) Blake Griffin. I think he's going to be a stud and command 30+ minutes a game. He does many of the same things as Camby, getting the ball at both ends of the court, passing (he's even better) and he'll quickly be a better scorer. The only thing he won't do as well or better than Camby is block shots... And that's what DJ is for...

A lineup of

Baron

Gordon

Butler

Griffin

Kaman

With a bench of Butler, Smith, DJ and whatever good young PG prospect we could get for Thornton would make us an elite team.

Derty_Bert
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If he wants to come back then we won't lose him for nothing. You don't know if Blake is a better passer than Camby, you don't know if he's a better rebounder. He hasn't played one game.

Hooch20
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Derty_Bert wrote:
SamMays wrote:
Baron and Kaman have learned to work well together. Kaman does a nice job moving without the ball and Baron does a nice job finding him. It's become a very good combination.

I love Camby, but I would do the Camby for Caron trade for two reasons. 1) Camby is a free agent in three months, which means we might lose him for nothing (I don't buy that we're getting Lebron or Wade and Caron is a great second choice. We might also be able to get Camby back in July... 2) Blake Griffin. I think he's going to be a stud and command 30+ minutes a game. He does many of the same things as Camby, getting the ball at both ends of the court, passing (he's even better) and he'll quickly be a better scorer. The only thing he won't do as well or better than Camby is block shots... And that's what DJ is for...

A lineup of

Baron

Gordon

Butler

Griffin

Kaman

With a bench of Butler, Smith, DJ and whatever good young PG prospect we could get for Thornton would make us an elite team.

If he wants to come back then we won't lose him for nothing. You don't know if Blake is a better passer than Camby, you don't know if he's a better rebounder. He hasn't played one game.

If we're lucky enough to sign someone Camby would have to come back for the veterans minimum. Do you think he'd be willing to play for that? I don't.

Dunleavy's stated numerous times that Griffin is the best passing big that's he been around. I'll trust him on that. Griffin will bring much more to the table than Camby as well. Part of the reason Camby's such a good rebounder is because he doesn't play much on ball defense. He just floats around and plays help side.

You're okay with signing one big free agent and then not having the money to resign our own free agents and keep our draft picks?

clipperboy24
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Hooch20 wrote:
Derty_Bert wrote:
SamMays wrote:
Baron and Kaman have learned to work well together. Kaman does a nice job moving without the ball and Baron does a nice job finding him. It's become a very good combination.

I love Camby, but I would do the Camby for Caron trade for two reasons. 1) Camby is a free agent in three months, which means we might lose him for nothing (I don't buy that we're getting Lebron or Wade and Caron is a great second choice. We might also be able to get Camby back in July... 2) Blake Griffin. I think he's going to be a stud and command 30+ minutes a game. He does many of the same things as Camby, getting the ball at both ends of the court, passing (he's even better) and he'll quickly be a better scorer. The only thing he won't do as well or better than Camby is block shots... And that's what DJ is for...

A lineup of

Baron

Gordon

Butler

Griffin

Kaman

With a bench of Butler, Smith, DJ and whatever good young PG prospect we could get for Thornton would make us an elite team.

If he wants to come back then we won't lose him for nothing. You don't know if Blake is a better passer than Camby, you don't know if he's a better rebounder. He hasn't played one game.

If we're lucky enough to sign someone Camby would have to come back for the veterans minimum. Do you think he'd be willing to play for that? I don't.

Dunleavy's stated numerous times that Griffin is the best passing big that's he been around. I'll trust him on that. Griffin will bring much more to the table than Camby as well. Part of the reason Camby's such a good rebounder is because he doesn't play much on ball defense. He just floats around and plays help side.

You're okay with signing one big free agent and then not having the money to resign our own free agents and keep our draft picks?

If we traded for Caron we wouldnt have to sign another big name and could move some of the lower dough where it needs to go.

ClipfanSince88
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clipperboy24 wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
Derty_Bert wrote:
SamMays wrote:
Baron and Kaman have learned to work well together. Kaman does a nice job moving without the ball and Baron does a nice job finding him. It's become a very good combination.

I love Camby, but I would do the Camby for Caron trade for two reasons. 1) Camby is a free agent in three months, which means we might lose him for nothing (I don't buy that we're getting Lebron or Wade and Caron is a great second choice. We might also be able to get Camby back in July... 2) Blake Griffin. I think he's going to be a stud and command 30+ minutes a game. He does many of the same things as Camby, getting the ball at both ends of the court, passing (he's even better) and he'll quickly be a better scorer. The only thing he won't do as well or better than Camby is block shots... And that's what DJ is for...

A lineup of

Baron

Gordon

Butler

Griffin

Kaman

With a bench of Butler, Smith, DJ and whatever good young PG prospect we could get for Thornton would make us an elite team.

If he wants to come back then we won't lose him for nothing. You don't know if Blake is a better passer than Camby, you don't know if he's a better rebounder. He hasn't played one game.

If we're lucky enough to sign someone Camby would have to come back for the veterans minimum. Do you think he'd be willing to play for that? I don't.

Dunleavy's stated numerous times that Griffin is the best passing big that's he been around. I'll trust him on that. Griffin will bring much more to the table than Camby as well. Part of the reason Camby's such a good rebounder is because he doesn't play much on ball defense. He just floats around and plays help side.

You're okay with signing one big free agent and then not having the money to resign our own free agents and keep our draft picks?

If we traded for Caron we wouldnt have to sign another big name and could move some of the lower dough where it needs to go.

But as Dude (I think) has pointed out, there are a lot of other free agents that are going to be out there this year other than the names everyone talks about all the time, e.g. LeBron, Wade, Bosh. So, even if we don't land one of the big names, we might be still be able to upgrade at SF and back up PG in the off season through lower priced free agents. Heck, that might be a better strategy for us anyway. That's why I'd prefer not to shake up the roster now. I think Griffin is going to be great, but the team is really clicking with Camby in there. If you would have asked me two weeks ago, I would have felt differently, but right now I'm saying lets just leave things alone for a while.

All that said, I wouldn't be that upset if a Camby for Butler trade happened because I do really like Butler as a player. (I would feel bad for Camby though -- Washington is a total mess right now).

SamMays
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Caron Butler is an all-star calibre SF.

Baron Davis, when motivated is an all-star calibre player and he finally appears to be getting smart.

Chris Kaman is an all-star level, or very near all-star level Center

Gordon is a very solid SG, who will continue to improve.

Blake Griffin is expected to become an all-star level PF...

That is a ball club that could challenge for a title if Baron stays motivated and Griffin and Gordon develop as expected (they don't have to exceed expectations).

I'd very gladly go with that group with Rasual Butler as a backup 2/3, DJ and Smith as backup bigs. Trade Thornton and/or Telfair for a promising PG prospect (or get one with this year's pick) and then bring in a slimmed down Sofo... Add Dorrell Wright as a third string 2/3... Wow.

That team at the very worst is a top six team in the west and might be a lot better than that... The hell with the FA drama in July and August. We can create the best Clipper team in the history of this organization between now and the June rookie draft with the above moves.

rED.bARON
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its pretty much the same team as we have now though, you could make the argument that Camby is all star quality [when he plays to his potential] we always hear defensive player of the year lines about him and yes he has the potential to play like thats and Butler has the potential to play like an all star but he dosnt. The wizards are dwelling in the cellars at ethe moment and hes meant to be a leader???? id rather bring in a player who is a leader on a winning team someone who knows how to win a champion. We dont have a leader like that Baron is not a winner hes not a champion. Griffin has the potential; as does Gordon but these guys have started their nba careers on a losing clipper team with a losing culture we need a change, i dont think Butler is the guy to do that. These young guys need a change of culture someone who knows how to win to come in and show them how.

but yes the team on paper as you have laid out looks awesome and it could well work if everyone gets on the same page, personally id rather see that team win a title rather than a lebron lead clippers team but we have to ask ourselves which is more likely?

note: i know lebron coming to the clippers is not very likely. woo.

Steady818
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this discussion should be officially closed and camby can be labeled untouchable for the rest of the seasonn

TheDude
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Unfortunately, the possibility of this Camby-Caron trade just got more likely with Blake out for the season. Not because it will help us (because it won't IMO) but because I fear a prolonged slump is coming for the rest of this month and by the deadline our playoff chances could be all but dead.

SamMays
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This team is most likely going to be about next year... Management might as well think that way... This isn't to say we shouldn't try to compete this year... You don't learn how to win by losing, but management needs to be realistic. If there is a trade available that will make us better over the next few years, they should make the move...

Caron Butler would be a strong asset. His contract is up at the end of next year, so taking him isn't a huge risk. Plus, by having him, it makes Thornton expendable and Al would be valuable enough to bring us a solid PG for our future I would think... We could improve next year and into the next few years with that one move.

lakerh8r
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It's hard to predict what kind of move dun will make. We are all hoping that he'll pull off a major signing, but I think what is more likely to happen is that he will pick up a few role players, guys like Ricky Davis, Craig Smith, Rasual Butler. They will probably be like 10 PPG average players who will dazzle in one night out of ten, but that are largely unreliable. At least that has been the trend recently. Hopefully it will be a good player

toohipcliptoslip
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I don't get trading Camby. He's playing great ball and without him we are short on bigs. We've got Chris, Skinner DJ and ???. Who would you rather have. He's cheap and expiring (he's also inspiring) Our one strength is our front court. If Marcus had been in we would have contained ZBo. BTW why didn't they have DJ guarding Zack?

Keep CK, MC, Butler,EJ, BD and Smith. Al's done poorly and maybe doesn't fit and will do better elsewhere. Combined how many points /game do they get?

SamMays
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I think the talk about trading Camby was centered on two possibilities. Blake's return this year (not happening) and/or, the Clippers falling out of playoff contention.

I suspect if we play well and stay in the hunt, Camby will stay. If we don't, I suspect Camby will be moved around the trade deadline in February. He's a huge asset to us now, but if we're not a playoff team, he could be a big asset to our future in terms of bringing in a piece that will be around longer than he will.

Hooch20
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Would anyone give up Camby, a protected 1st, and change for Iguodala?

He's a nice all around player and is rumored to be available. He's also only 26 and would add to our nice young core. His contract us a little much though.

SamMays
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^^^ The problem with Iguodala is his contract. He's paid through 2013 and it escalates up to over 17-million that last year. He's a nice player, but grossly overpaid. No thanks. He's just not worth what he's getting paid... If he were that good, the sixers would win a lot more games.

There's no bigger albatross for a team to carry than an overpaid player who doesn't make the team highly successful.

clipper*joe
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17 million is way overpaid if you compare him to Z-BO and his contributions to the Grizz. Smile

MannyA
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Plus, they are giving up Iguodala only if you take another contract like Dalambert of their hands. They won't give him up just for cap relief.

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