Clippers Have Deadline Decisions to Make

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emplay
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Hey all,

Here's my re-set heading into the deadline:

Clippers Have Deadline Decisions to Make

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=15256

Thanks

Eric

PS - Send me those Mailbag Questions - the answers will go up on Thursday! (include your first name and city).

MannyA
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So no matter what we do, we are screwed? Not enough to get Iggy, Lebron ain't coming and most other options are over the hill. WWPD? What would Pincus do?

ClipfanSince88
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Eric - just curious, why do you always write HEAT in all caps?

ClipThemOff
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i think we saw the last of Marcus Camby, and Al Thornton in a Clippers uniforms...

and stupid dunce can we get our 2nd round picks back from all that hot garbage you've been trading for?

ClipThemOff
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wow i didn't even read the link untill now... i was right a Camby/Thornton trade along with RDavis, Collins, and Telfair

Camby/Thornton/Telfair for one of the following:

Joe Johnson

Josh Howard

Kevin Martin

Larry Hughes

any other names you guys want to throw out there?

Hooch20
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How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

ClipThemOff
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Kaman isnt going anywere and im not just saying that because im a Kaman fan.. it doesn't make sence to get rid of a high performing center....

this is the problem.. you can't start two centers and call one a PF... Camby nor Butler or any other forward on this team besides Smith drive to the basket to create interior offence and thats why Kaman gets doubled or even tripled team while everyone else stands around like a bunch of zombies

Camby/Thornton and throw in Telfair for more cap space for a solid small forward...thats all LA needs

and a new coach mind you

LAC_12
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Kaman and peices for Chris Bosh

Cliptonyte
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I think this team needs a lot more than a solid small forward and a new coach...

clipboard
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Owner, name, all coaches, all players, Los Angeles, NBA and go to the NBA-D league. Not enough ticket and TV money will be available for years and when it does , come back with a different whole program.

Hooch20
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I'd do Kaman and Baron for anything expiring at this point. We've got a ton of guys that would be very nice pieces on other teams, but putting them together doesn't work. I'm not sure anyone would touch Baron, but Kaman could be gone with a snap of the fingers.

Kaman would be a lot easier to replace as well. I'd take David Lee or Amare in a heartbeat over him right now. Those two guys at least go out and play with effort every night.

There aren't any PG's available this offseason with the exception of Felton and he may be worth throwing a 6-7 million contract at. Baron's clearly not the guy he was and he's clearly not the leader we need, but I'm just not sure who we could get to replace him.

MannyA
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

Hooch20
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MannyA wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

What's so funny?

The Suns are trying like hell to get rid of Amare and giving them an expring and a young piece would be a great starting piece. I'd even throw in a protected pick if they wanted.

Kaman for Josh Howard could be done any day of the week. The Mavs are done with him and are big time looking for a move. They lack two things in Dallas and that's a true center and a shooting guard. I'm guessing they'd jump at getting a center that's an all-start reserve and big time buddies with Dirk.

Trinidad
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Hooch20 wrote:
MannyA wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

What's so funny?

The Suns are trying like hell to get rid of Amare and giving them an expring and a young piece would be a great starting piece. I'd even throw in a protected pick if they wanted.

Kaman for Josh Howard could be done any day of the week. The Mavs are done with him and are big time looking for a move. They lack two things in Dallas and that's a true center and a shooting guard. I'm guessing they'd jump at getting a center that's an all-start reserve and big time buddies with Dirk.

I thought you meant Dwight Howard and was about to laugh also. Kaman is worth more than josh howard thou.

Hooch20
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Trinidad wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
MannyA wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

What's so funny?

The Suns are trying like hell to get rid of Amare and giving them an expring and a young piece would be a great starting piece. I'd even throw in a protected pick if they wanted.

Kaman for Josh Howard could be done any day of the week. The Mavs are done with him and are big time looking for a move. They lack two things in Dallas and that's a true center and a shooting guard. I'm guessing they'd jump at getting a center that's an all-start reserve and big time buddies with Dirk.

I thought you meant Dwight Howard and was about to laugh also. Kaman is worth more than josh howard thou.

Sure Kaman's more valuable, but we're not winning with him and if we we're able to some how get Amare we wouldn't need Kaman. Our weak spot would still be SF and Kaman for Howard is one way to get one. Howard has a team option next year so we could decide if we keep him or take some cap space.

MannyA
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I knew he meant Josh Howard but there is no way we give away Kaman for tax relief. I just thought he was joking like some of his other trade propasal on other threads. My mistake.

reboundrate!
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Hooch20 wrote:
MannyA wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

What's so funny?

The Suns are trying like hell to get rid of Amare and giving them an expring and a young piece would be a great starting piece. I'd even throw in a protected pick if they wanted.

Kaman for Josh Howard could be done any day of the week. The Mavs are done with him and are big time looking for a move. They lack two things in Dallas and that's a true center and a shooting guard. I'm guessing they'd jump at getting a center that's an all-start reserve and big time buddies with Dirk.

Not sure if Amare is what we want....we complain about Kaman's defense all the time but Amare doesn't even try to play defense.

ClipThemOff
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how about the whole damn franchise for a new tv Smile

clipperboy24
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Hooch20 wrote:
Trinidad wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
MannyA wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
How about Camby and Thornton for Amare?

Then Kaman for Howard.

We then get a big time change with two guys that have been winners.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nice. Don't forget Baron for Chris Paul.

What's so funny?

The Suns are trying like hell to get rid of Amare and giving them an expring and a young piece would be a great starting piece. I'd even throw in a protected pick if they wanted.

Kaman for Josh Howard could be done any day of the week. The Mavs are done with him and are big time looking for a move. They lack two things in Dallas and that's a true center and a shooting guard. I'm guessing they'd jump at getting a center that's an all-start reserve and big time buddies with Dirk.

I thought you meant Dwight Howard and was about to laugh also. Kaman is worth more than josh howard thou.

Sure Kaman's more valuable, but we're not winning with him and if we we're able to some how get Amare we wouldn't need Kaman. Our weak spot would still be SF and Kaman for Howard is one way to get one. Howard has a team option next year so we could decide if we keep him or take some cap space.

Amare doesnt exactly guarantee wins but he would be an upgrade over kaman (one of three upgrades out there). The Suns really thrive when Nash plays and with Amare he obviously has won more than Kaman, but put kaman in that system and Amare over here and i think it would be plus 5-10 wins for us.

Josh Howard can play SF so that would be good but we can get a better talent than Howard with Kaman and their contracts are equal s it wouldnt bring salary relief.

Thornton would probably be a perfect fit fr the Suns if they could convince him to not fade but attack the rim. He is fast an reacts good on the break... would be great if they would go for that.

SamMays
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The last guy we need is Josh Howard, another low IQ, me-first player to join Baron Davis. No thanks.

emplay
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i'd try to get Iguodala - maybe give up a Clipper first to get him - but not the 2010 one.

clipper*joe
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Baron isn't a me first player...

SamMays
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We'll disagree on this forever...

Baron needs to be the center of attention so he's complained about coaches, overtly at times and less overtly, as he did with Dunleavy, suggesting that Dunleavy was too controling. He needs to be the star of the team, but doesn't always condition in the off season. He needs to be seen as a superstar, but hasn't spent the gym time in the off-season to improve his jump shot. He knows he plays best when he's lighter, but sometimes lets himself get fat and comes into the season overweight. He needs to be looked at so he has to be the last one on the court, making everyone wait for him.

He's a point guard, so sure, he'll pass the ball to others and get his assists, but that's his job.

The guy is totally self-indulgent... He's been our "leader" through the two most frustrating, underachieving seasons we've had here (and that's saying something). He can say he has to lead all he wants, but he has to do it, not say it.

He mailed it in for a whole season last year... He had a decent November this year, a great December, where he actually worked hard and played well. The January came and it was back to mediocrity. Now it's February and it's like he's reverted to last season's form.

I cut him some slack this year, since he was playing better than last year... Well, that was my mistake... If he's not the most overpaid player in basketball, he's one of them. He plays in streaks when the mood suits him, his athleticism is fading fast and he's as bad a "leader" as the NBA has seen.

He had all the athleticism that anyone could want... But his head kept him from being a great player and the older he gets, the more obvious that becomes... He got what he wanted, freedom... Now we're seeing what he's doing with it.

I shudder to imagine what he'll be doing for us in two years... What he'll be like in three years is incomprehensible.

emplay
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that's how you spell the HEAT btw - that's how they spell it - just like how you spell STAPLES Center. I don't know why they chose it but it's a market thing I guess - but the offical way the Miami teams spells their own name is HEAT

btw - at HOOPSWORLD - they do the same - not hoopsworld or Hoopsworld or Hoops World, etc

MannyA
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So, that proves Baron is a Diva, but he's not a "me first player". He ranks pretty high in assist and I'm pretty sure he would be even higher if his team could shoot even a little bit.

ClipThemOff
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boom diva lol....

well yes i agree that he would have way more assist if the pack of losers...yes including himself would make that those shots... though im still in favor of BD getting use to the new offence

clipper*joe
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We'll disagree on this forever... Baron needs to be the center of attention so he's complained about coaches, overtly at times and less overtly, as he did with Dunleavy, suggesting that Dunleavy was too controling. He needs to be the star of the team, but doesn't always condition in the off season. He needs to be seen as a superstar, but hasn't spent the gym time in the off-season to improve his jump shot. He knows he plays best when he's lighter, but sometimes lets himself get fat and comes into the season overweight. He needs to be looked at so....

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SamMays
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Diva... Me first... Not a whole lot of difference...

It's all about "Look at me, look at me."

I see it done on stage and on screen all the time with actors stealing the best lines from their supporting stars, needing to stand out from ensemble, etc... I wrote a movie with a major star. The scene was for him to lead his soldiers into battle. He had objections to the script because his character didn't get to kill most of the bad guys by himself. So, he insisted it be rewritten so he got more kills... He didn't care that the movie got less realistic. He was a diva, in it for himself.

Baron is much the same. He wants to be at the center of every basket and every fan's eye, whether it's by making the shot, or getting the assist. He loves to get steals because that looks really good. Forget that he's gambling into the passing lanes all the time rather than covering his man... He gets his steals and creates the illusion that he's playing D for those who aren't watching closely... He doesn't want to do any of the dirty work that goes unnoticed.

Our team quit last night and virtually all of last year... And Baron is our "leader." First to get excited when things are going well, first to quit when they're not.

Sure, I guess there's a difference between a Diva and a me-first player... I'm just not sure what it is.

We're 40 - 92 in the Baron era for a .30 winning percentage. And these were supposed to be among the more talented of Clipper teams. Perhaps we could blame Marcus Camby, or Mardy Collins, but that doesn't seem quite right.

MuteHaitian
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I agree with you both. In short, Baron isn't the problem... but he isn't the solution either. He is no longer that dominant pg that he was in GSW. Sure, the rest of the team is also at fault- not being able to make shots, etc. But what we all would expect him to do in this case is to take charge. Don't tell me that the pieces we have in this team are worse than the pieces he had during GSW's playoff teams. Yes, true that he was under Don Nelson's running system, which would increases his stats, but come on.... 1 of 12 against a team that is NOT known for a defense??

Until Kim Hughes (or god hope that we get a new coach soon) gets more experience and more comfortable with the team; until the rest of the team (ie Thornton, Butler) show up to games CONSISTENTLY; until Baron Davis is able to dominate (if ever) and will us to wins... we're not going anywhere. IMO, we're better off with a fresh start and a trade.

clipper*joe
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Uh, it's the rebuilding stage era...not the Baron era. Baron came here to compliment Brand. Baron came here ONLY because of Brand's wishes. Baron came here with the Salary of a middle-upper echelon player and NOT as an elite player. The guy is only making 12 million this season. The guy isn't even in the top 30-50 players in the league. He didn't come here to save us, he didn't come here to be the face of the franchise, he didn't come here to start a new era, he came here to help what was sup[posed to be a ready made team with Brand, Kaman, Mobley, and supporting cast.

So for you to turn this into a "it's all his fault", better look at his salary and the circumstances related to this whole debacle. Pointing out a team's record and using it to blame a player just doesn't jive....sorry.

SamMays
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Joe, we've been through it too many times...

I will say that the first assertion you make, that all NBA players want to be the center of attention just isn't so and you know it's not... About a third of them want to simply establish themselves as career NBA players. Another third just want to contribute and win; guys like Chauncy Billups, Rip Hamilton, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Derek Fisher and on and on who simply want to work hard, play the game the right way and win every game possible... Then, perhaps, another third see themselves as celebrities in the center of things... Of those, some are about winning and others would just as soon lose if it somehow made their star rise higher.

The second assertion you make is that the past doesn't relate to the present when it comes to Baron Davis. Really? His history of not getting along with coaches, his history of not always being in top shape, his history of not always giving his best effort... None of that relates to the Baron of today? You're right in Baron's tenure here we haven't seen any of that behavior... He's always shown up in shape, except last year... He's always gotten along with his coaches, except Dunleavy... He always puts forth his best effort, except last year and for a variety of stretches this year... History has a way of repeating itself, which is why we should study it and learn from it, whether it's world history or the history of an NBA player.

That's your first two assertions and it's as far as I'm going to bother to go.

Suffice it to say, I would be thrilled if Baron retired, giving us his 13-million to spend on a different point guard.

SamMays
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We agree on this and you don't rebuild with a fading star... Haitian was right. He's not our only problem... But he's our self-appointed leader... And he's not the solution either.

clipperAndrew
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Why not trade Camby for Tyrus Thomas. The guy is a beast and the Bulls want to unload him. I Dont think is contract is that big. But I love his game. I know he has a little bit of an attitude, but the dude can play!

lakerh8r
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clipper*joe wrote:
SamMays wrote:

We're 40 - 92 in the Baron era for a .30 winning percentage. And these were supposed to be among the more talented of Clipper teams. Perhaps we could blame Marcus Camby, or Mardy Collins, but that doesn't seem quite right.

Uh, it's the rebuilding stage era...not the Baron era. Baron came here to compliment Brand. Baron came here ONLY because of Brand's wishes. Baron came here with the Salary of a middle-upper echelon player and NOT as an elite player. The guy is only making 12 million this season. The guy isn't even in the top 30-50 players in the league. He didn't come here to save us, he didn't come here to be the face of the franchise, he didn't come here to start a new era, he came here to help what was sup[posed to be a ready made team with Brand, Kaman, Mobley, and supporting cast.

So for you to turn this into a "it's all his fault", better look at his salary and the circumstances related to this whole debacle. Pointing out a team's record and using it to blame a player just doesn't jive....sorry.

Joe it's hard not to disagree with your post. To begin with a point guard is the floor general...he leads the team and distributes the ball. The point guard determines the game more than any other position. The PG has such as strong outcome on the game. Regardless of why Baron came here he was hands down the most talented player the clippers acquired since Sam Cassell, and despite Elton Brands place on this team he was never considered the top option or leader (I'm sure i will be debated on this point). Baron came here with that expectation, but sadly it hasn't panned out that way. Ask any clippers fan and the majority thought Baron was going to do what Cassell did. Sure,maybe Baron didn't want all that pressure, but nobody wanted the Clippers to pay him that deal to just go out on the court and "have fun." We didn't want him to supplement, we wanted him to turn this ship in a whole different direction. We did want him to be the face of the franchise because the last talented point guard that came through here did wonders for us (Cassell)

I agree with your point that the blame does need to be spread to the whole team. Lets also blame Eric Gordon who's play is steadily declining, lets blame thornton and rapid decline, lets blame Deandre Jordans dissapointing sophmore season, lets blame everyone, but above all 12 million a year is demanding of a better outcome and performance, and as I mentioned before the point guard position is the heart of the team so sadly even though everyone should be chided it should begin with Baron.

MannyA
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Because Thomas is a Power Forward and we already have Blake Griffin. It would be nice if we could get him after we fix the small

forward position

clipperAndrew
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Ya but a straight up trade for Thomas would put him in the starting line up as power foward for the rest of the season. The guy is huge. He can play center. I rather have him as back up PF/Center then DJ or craig smith. Although I do like Craigs game.

clipper*joe
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SamMays wrote:
Quote:

Uh, it's the rebuilding stage era...

We agree on this and you don't rebuild with a fading star... Haitian was right. He's not our only problem... But he's our self-appointed leader... And he's not the solution either.

I have stats that prove he isn't fading. I have stats that prove even if he was fading, he is still in the top ten in production compared to the younger, more athletic, in better teams, in better circumstances, and with chemistry built upon years with the same players.

Self-appointed or not, it doesn't mean he is the root of the problems. Don't you find it remotely odd that baron has the best chemistry with Kaman? The guy is in his prime and has skills. Gordon has a lot of upside but still, he is only a second year player that has only a catch and shoot skill in his repertoire. Camby? Pretty much useless on the offensive end except maybe for the occasional putback.

Butler? A career role player playing like he is part of the elite...playing out of his natural position and taking way too many shots for a low % shooter.

If anyone can say we have a legit starting line-up in all positions, I tip my hat off to you cause I sure can't.

lakerh8r
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SamMays wrote:
Quote:

Uh, it's the rebuilding stage era...

We agree on this and you don't rebuild with a fading star... Haitian was right. He's not our only problem... But he's our self-appointed leader... And he's not the solution either.

That's our problem...we cant come to terms that Baron is a fading star. Mays that's what the problem is with our front office they are too optimistic on Baron and probably think (maybe hope) that he will turn it around... he wont. Baron is now averaging 15.8 PPG and 7.9 APG, which is close to his numbers last year.

clipper*joe
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SamMays wrote:
Joe, we've been through it too many times...

I will say that the first assertion you make, that all NBA players want to be the center of attention just isn't so and you know it's not... About a third of them want to simply establish themselves as career NBA players. Another third just want to contribute and win; guys like Chauncy Billups, Rip Hamilton, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Derek Fisher and on and on who simply want to work hard, play the game the right way and win every game possible... Then, perhaps, another third see themselves as celebrities in the center of things... Of those, some are about winning and others would just as soon lose if it somehow made their star rise higher.

I would sure like to know where you got your data from. The NBA is purely for entertainment...on the BIG stage. Not sure how you broke the %'s but most players come into the league wanting to be in the elite status. Anyone willing and able to come into the league never come in thinking I want to be a role player....they know the stage is there for the taking. If you think these young guys don't come into the league wanting the attention then you are wrong. Others that don't crave it are either lying, have accepted their fate, or lying. lol

Saying that a NBA player playing 82 games a season in front of large crowds don't like the attention is the equivalent to a "actor" saying he loves his career for the art, not the attention. If not for the audience and attention, who for?

Quote:

The second assertion you make is that the past doesn't relate to the present when it comes to Baron Davis. Really? His history of not getting along with coaches, his history of not always being in top shape, his history of not always giving his best effort... None of that relates to the Baron of today? You're right in Baron's tenure here we haven't seen any of that behavior... He's always shown up in shape, except last year... He's always gotten along with his coaches, except Dunleavy... He always puts forth his best effort, except last year and for a variety of stretches this year... History has a way of repeating itself, which is why we should study it and learn from it, whether it's world history or the history of an NBA player.

That's your first two assertions and it's as far as I'm going to bother to go.

My assertion was about not comparing him to his past. He came in shape, his effort can't be questioned, he wasn't bumping heads with Dunleavy. For FS, he was the first guy to call Dun after he resigned. He spent a lot of time with Coach during the off-season.

And as far as repeating history, you were wrong about Randolph's empty stats, getting in trouble, can't be traded , and everything else. History can be studied but their is no tangle science that predicts the future or patterns.

Randolph alone made the Grizz a contender. Made the All-Star and is getting love from everybody.

Studying the past only serves as a reminder, not a predictor to the future.

Quote:

Suffice it to say, I would be thrilled if Baron retired, giving us his 13-million to spend on a different point guard.

That goes without saying Sam, you've felt that way from jumpstreet.

clipper321
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fyi joe...baron didn't come here to play with brand. he came because GSW would not give him the contract he wanted...say what you want about barons productivity only stat i see is wins and losses. you say barons not the leader? he always calls himself one... we need a new pg all im going to say and a plethora of others

clipper*joe
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FYI, he had an option for his last year and he decided to leave like 18 million on the table to get more lucrative contract with a balance of years and salary. GS offered up a 2 year contract which Baron didn't like but regardless, he left money on the table.

And for extra FYI, he did come here cause of Brand, Dun was llooking to sign Udrih when Brand called Dun up to say he wants Baron to run the show. Dun was NEVER looking for Baron, he wasn't even on the radar. Baron didn't give GS time to come up with a better contract. He bailed on them.

Hope this info. straightens out your misconceptions on what happened.

Edit:

Oh, when did I say he wasn't the leader? roll

MannyA
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Any point guard we would've got with the exception of Chris Paul and maybe Daron Williams, it would of been the same thing. This team still had Dunleavy as a coach and a ridiculous amount of injuries. Baron came into this season fit and willing to cooperate with Dunleavy. Is it his fault his teammates can't shoot for ****? Is it his fault that he is the only starter on the team that can actually dribble the ball without bouncing it off his foot. If his teammates could shoot, maybe he wouldn't take so many outside shots. But everyone is putting all this pressure on him that it's his team and he has to take charge, so what other option does he have?

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This team shouldn't be rebuilding. That happens every year. We should e contending for the PO's. This is Kafkaesque. I'm waiting for Rod Serling to walk out smoking a doobie. We were counting on EJ close to 20ppg, Al a bit less than 20ppg and BD ~18. We were expecting EJ to be our horse and Al to be Corey. They all bite. Butler is a bench guy. Right now I'd rather have Corey. Sorry to be a heretic but EG may have been a flash in the pan like Al. I feel he's a gamble. I'm bipolar about DJ. That facial was amazingly well done but he doesn't have it. I have hope for him but I hope I'll meet Brittany Spears, her sister and her Mom. (Before you poo-poo think about it. Rich, crazy and nasty)Wouldn't you rather have Ben Gordon? EJ may be a bench player. It's a gamble. He should shoot ~80% FT. He chokes. I hope Blake comes back 100% but he may not. EB wasn't the same after the Achilles.

The good news is the Cakeman. Say what you will but he was the coaches Fav. and Rhino. We keep them and MAYBE Brown. Everyone else is expendable. If BD were a leader we wouldn't have this problem. Imagine Sammy with this team.

We ain't gonna get no free agents, cheap agents or expensive agents

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
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Location: los angeles
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I imagine Sammy with this team...He would have asked to be bought out in the same fashion he did a few years ago....with better players around him at that time.

That was too easy. Sammy benefited from his tenure here cause the players were already there ( minus Mobley). He had key guys that had played together for 2 years or more. Baron came in with the Motley Crew, in the same year.

clipper321
Clipper All-Star
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Location: California
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.all i know is we suck baron is one of our biggest problems you said he wasnt brought here to be a cornerstone but hes always talks like ihe is. leave the stats at home this organization is a mess

clipper*joe
CTB MVP Champion
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Yup, we suck but how can you honestly say Baron is our biggest problem? How so?

And since Baron is the most recognizable person on this team and does have the most experience, why shouldn't he speak up for the team? Who else has stepped up to the plate????? Right! No one has!

And no, he wasn't brought here to be the cornerstone of this franchise, Brand was the face of this franchise and Baron was brought here to help and keep Brand here. That didn't work out, did it?

TheDude
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 2681

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That's not enough but we could go bigger and try to get Deng and Hinrich with him. Screw it, those guys need to blow it up as much as we do. They need the cap space bc they think DWade is on the way.

Do this and I'll even be generous and send over Minnesota's pick.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=ykavjpf

SamMays
CTB MVP X1
Posts: 4008
votes: 53

Quote:

I have stats that prove he isn't fading.

Just look at him and you can watch the athleticism wane. You don't need stats to see that he's getting prematurely old.

Quote:

I would sure like to know where you got your data from. The NBA is purely for entertainment...on the BIG stage. Not sure how you broke the %'s but most players come into the league wanting to be in the elite status.

Joe, most players aren't top 5 picks who think they're going to rocket to stardom... Even Larry Bird has said that he was nervous as hell going into his first camp, unsure if he belonged. He quickly realized he did, but most rookies don't start right away and have to chip away for their opportunity... It takes them two or three years to establish themselves as solid NBA players. Lots of guys get an injury, a bad break, the wrong coach, lose confidence and never acheive what they might have...

Sure, they may "want" stardom, but most are realistic... Their first goal is simply to stick, to be able to make a living playing basketball in the US... They don't want to go to Russia or wherever...

The best players thrive on the competion, not the attention... The attention comes as an outgrowth of excellence... Players who have that backward are the knuckleheads who either play themselves out of the league, or fail to acheive what their talent might have allowed, Marbury, Francis, etc, and I include Baron Davis in that group... A guy who had special ability who failed to utilize if fully because his brain got in the way.

Quote:

Studying the past only serves as a reminder, not a predictor to the future.

Say what? The past may not be a PERFECT predictor of the future, but it's the best we have, which is a hell of a lot more than a reminder... And yes, the Randolph of this year is much better than the one we had. History as a teacher isn't perfect. Some people do change... Randolph worked on his body for the first time ever in the off-season... He's now gone a full year without getting arrested or suspended...That's also a first... If I'm wrong about Randolph and he's a new man going forward, good for him...

I kept waiting for Benoit Benjamin to change and start playing hard, or Michael Olowakandi... History was a pretty good predictor with those guys...

Like I said earlier, Baron played outstanding basketball in December, his only really good month since he's been a Clipper... And I watched him quit last night. Sure, lots of other guys did too, but he's our leader... he should be the last one to quit, but determination isn't one of his great assets.

We have a lot of the wrong pieces... Moving Baron and Camby, our vets, would be a good start toward getting it right since they haven't been able to lead us anywhere.

MuteHaitian
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votes: 1

clipper*joe wrote:

I imagine Sammy with this team...He would have asked to be bought out in the same fashion he did a few years ago....with better players around him at that time.

That was too easy. Sammy benefited from his tenure here cause the players were already there ( minus Mobely). He had key guys that had played together for 2 years or more. Baron came in with the Motley Crew, in the same year.

If you guys haven't read my post above, please read it as I will elaborate further.

Like I said, Baron Davis is not at fault for the failures of this team. He is not the problem of the team. HOWEVER, he is also not the solution, nor is he even close. As the team captain and the star of the team (we've all seen what he's done and what he was capable of doing in Oakland), Baron Davis should be willing us to victories. If not victories then AT THE VERY LEAST close games. Definitely not blowout losses or 15+ losses to the Nets and the Warriors.

Sure, like Joe said, he may have signed because Brand recruited him. OK, Dunleavy might not have even been looking at Davis in the first place. Yes, he might not even have been on the radar.... But does this change what's expected of him? Did we all of a sudden expect him to be a non-dominant player just because he signed for Brand? No, we expected him to bring his skill, his thrill, and his legacy to LA from GSW. Brand wanted Davis to run the show, Brand left, now what? Is Davis no longer capable of running the show just because one player left?

clipper*joe wrote:

Uh, it's the rebuilding stage era...not the Baron era. Baron came here to compliment Brand. Baron came here ONLY because of Brand's wishes. Baron came here with the Salary of a middle-upper echelon player and NOT as an elite player. The guy is only making 12 million this season. The guy isn't even in the top 30-50 players in the league. He didn't come here to save us, he didn't come here to be the face of the franchise, he didn't come here to start a new era, he came here to help what was sup[posed to be a ready made team with Brand, Kaman, Mobley, and supporting cast.

Ok fine, maybe Davis didn't come to LA expecting to be the elite player. This doesn't mean that he ISN'T/WASN'T an elite player though. HE was the face of the Warriors' franchise. HE embodied the motto "We Believe". HE led the Warriors into the history books as the first 8th seeded team to beat the 1st. HE was the #1 on that #8 team... So Brand, the "elite" player leaves us. Shouldn't this automatically bump BD to the elite player position? I mean come on... he was ONLY the number one star on the Warriors right? roll Doesn't that make sense? Who else was going to step up as our elite player in Brand's absence? Thornton? Kaman? Tim Thomas? After being the face of the Warriors' franchise, why can't he be the face of our franchise?

I reiterate, he is not at fault for our troubles this season. But why can't he step it up during our time of turmoil? Why is it that we can't see any form of the player he left behind in GSW? Sure, maybe his teammates aren't showing up to games. Thornton and Butler have been completely inconsistent almost to the point of useless this season, and Gordon is slowing down after a strong rookie campaign. But don't tell me that our current roster cannot compete with that of his 2007 playoff roster. Don't tell me that our pieces are utterly inferior to his GSW roster TO THE POINT THAT we lose by 16 points to the worst team in the league, if not in history.

clipper*joe
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MuteHaitian wrote:

If you guys haven't read my post above, please read it as I will elaborate further.

Like I said, Baron Davis is not at fault for the failures of this team. He is not the problem of the team. HOWEVER, he is also not the solution, nor is he even close. As the team captain and the star of the team (we've all seen what he's done and what he was capable of doing in Oakland), Baron Davis should be willing us to victories. If not victories then AT THE VERY LEAST close games. Definitely not blowout losses or 15+ losses to the Nets and the Warriors.

That's all great and all but since you have already figured out he is not the solution, who is? Or shall I say, what kind of PG is the solution to the current squad we have. I am asking because you've made the decision based upon the current squad. If he isn't the solution with these group of guys, who out there is?

Quote:
Sure, like Joe said, he may have signed because Brand recruited him. OK, Dunleavy might not have even been looking at Davis in the first place. Yes, he might not even have been on the radar.... But does this change what's expected of him? Did we all of a sudden expect him to be a non-dominant player just because he signed for Brand? No, we expected him to bring his skill, his thrill, and his legacy to LA from GSW. Brand wanted Davis to run the show, Brand left, now what? Is Davis no longer capable of running the show just because one player left?

What are you expecting of him? I'd really like to know cause everyone keeps saying generic things but never actually give examples or shall I say, specific things he isn't bringing to the floor.

What I expected from Baron was to put in the effort ( he is) and run the team as best he can ( he is). If you expected better shooting %'s which by the way, haven't fluctuated much in his career, then you are putting too much on his shoulders. If you expect him to produce the same way he was in GS, give him the same caliber players he had there before putting him in a box like that. Baron is doing better than expected considering the players he has to work with. Did Baron have the same type of mediocre players in GS as he does here? I don't think so.

Quote:
Ok fine, maybe Davis didn't come to LA expecting to be the elite player. This doesn't mean that he ISN'T/WASN'T an elite player though. HE was the face of the Warriors' franchise. HE embodied the motto "We Believe". HE led the Warriors into the history books as the first 8th seeded team to beat the 1st. HE was the #1 on that #8 team... So Brand, the "elite" player leaves us. Shouldn't this automatically bump BD to the elite player position? I mean come on... he was ONLY the number one star on the Warriors right? roll Doesn't that make sense? Who else was going to step up as our elite player in Brand's absence? Thornton? Kaman? Tim Thomas? After being the face of the Warriors' franchise, why can't he be the face of our franchise?

You DON'T bump up elite players...either you are or you are not. This isn't a default thing where you up in class when someone leaves.

Quote:

I reiterate, he is not at fault for our troubles this season. But why can't he step it up during our time of turmoil? Why is it that we can't see any form of the player he left behind in GSW? Sure, maybe his teammates aren't showing up to games. Thornton and Butler have been completely inconsistent almost to the point of useless this season, and Gordon is slowing down after a strong rookie campaign. But don't tell me that our current roster cannot compete with that of his 2007 playoff roster. Don't tell me that our pieces are utterly inferior to his GSW roster TO THE POINT THAT we lose by 16 points to the worst team in the league, if not in history.

I won't tell you that current roster can't compete but I will tell you that we have:

  1. One all-star back-up at center

  2. An aging player who kills it on the weak defense but is a liability when leaving the paint. Not much help at the offensive end.

  3. A PG who is trying his best. A PG who is badly missed once he leaves the game for rest. When he leaves we lose leads or fall behind big time.

  • If there is one thing so obvious, it is when Baron leaves the game.
  1. A one dimensional catch and shoot 2nd year player that is nowhere near his first year status.

  2. A lifelong role player who has spent most of his time playing musical chairs between a starter's job and the bench.

    Now, can you honestly tell me we should be a play-off team with those starters?

    Can you honestly tell me we should be a play-off team with a team who won 19 games last season?

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