Clips looking at 3 coaches

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Hooch20
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http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100326-27 New Bobcats owner Michael Jordan didn't do much to dispel the notion that Coach of the Year candidate Larry Brown could leave Charlotte at season's end, so Brown will continue to be linked to a possible return to the Clippers or 76ers until he pledges otherwise. Other names, though, are starting to circulate as likely coaching candidates for the Clippers. Three options that the Clippers are strongly evaluating, according to NBA coaching sources: Byron Scott and Mark Jackson from ESPN's TV roster and Mavericks assistant coach Dwane Casey. Although it is widely presumed in Los Angeles that Scott is a prospective down-the-road replacement....

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journeyman
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Nice find.

I've never been much of a Byron Scott fan, but he's experienced and he's coveted by the Lakers, so nabbing him would show that the team is serious about moving forward. I'm not so sure what to make of Casey or Jackson. Casey was a steady hand on an awful team, though I'm genuinely curious as to how he'd do with some good pieces (on paper, at least). I still don't like the idea of Mark Jackson using the Clippers as on the job training. Now, if they'd hire JVG with Jackson tagging along as an assistant, that would be awesome.

ClipfanSince88
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Yeah, the more I think about, the more I feel that leaving the coaching spot open in order to entice LeBron is just crazy. Who's to say LeBron would even be able to get who he wanted by the time he decided he was coming here, if at all? Unless he wants to stick his high school coach or one of his Akron buddies on the bench. Heaven help us if that's how things turn out.

clipperboy24
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great find thanks for posting this. I think Byron would be a great fit and maybe it would mea Baron would be shipped out. This would be awesome

clipperstown
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nice!

MrB
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Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

SamMays
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I can't believe there are so many Baron haters here. What's wrong with you guys?

checkdafool10
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without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

ekker3
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no way we pick up a coach before we know what we're doing this offseason

MannyA
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Wow, some love for Baron, nice!

As for coaches, I'm not a big fan of Byron Scott, but I'll take him in a heartbeat because of his experience and track record. I like Mark Jackson but I don't think right now is the right time to bring in a first time coach. The Clippers biggest problems are chemistry and hustle. We need a coach with experience that knows how to handle players. I never heard of the other guy.

While we are at it, why not replace the training staff?

MrB
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checkdafool10 wrote:
MrB wrote:
Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

I beg to differ. Maybe we aren't watching the same Clippers cause the Baron I see is far from what you've described IMHO. I think the team would be fine with another pg that wasn't so inconsistent and lacked true leadership skills. I think the team we be better off moving in a different direction with a new pg.

Miquel
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MrB wrote:
checkdafool10 wrote:
MrB wrote:
Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

I beg to differ. Maybe we aren't watching the same Clippers cause the Baron I see is far from what you've described IMHO. I think the team would be fine with another pg that wasn't so inconsistent and lacked true leadership skills. I think the team we be better off moving in a different direction with a new pg.

Totally agree. Baron has had two full seasons to prove he was the leader of this team but he has failed. He has had too many awful games this season and I don't think his attitude is positive for the team. If Blake was the starting PG in a better franchise like the Blazers, I don't understand why he couldn't be our starting PG. He's a good defender, a good assistant, can drill some 3s and he's a worker man...

As for the coach, I think he should be our first adquisition this summer and I don't have any favourite

checkdafool10
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Miquel wrote:
MrB wrote:
checkdafool10 wrote:
MrB wrote:
Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

I beg to differ. Maybe we aren't watching the same Clippers cause the Baron I see is far from what you've described IMHO. I think the team would be fine with another pg that wasn't so inconsistent and lacked true leadership skills. I think the team we be better off moving in a different direction with a new pg.

Totally agree. Baron has had two full seasons to prove he was the leader of this team but he has failed. He has had too many awful games this season and I don't think his attitude is positive for the team. If Blake was the starting PG in a better franchise like the Blazers, I don't understand why he couldn't be our starting PG. He's a good defender, a good assistant, can drill some 3s and he's a worker man...

As for the coach, I think he should be our first adquisition this summer and I don't have any favourite

the reason the blazers are so good is cuz they have superstar players in Roy and Aldridge. In playing ability and common sense Aldridge beats Kaman by miles. If Blake was so great they wouldn't hav drafted Jerryd Bayless or picked up Andre Miller. How can Baron lead a band of uninspired misfits, that is almost asking the impossible. the reason he takes those strange shots is because no one on else on the team can step up and do anything

SamMays
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I was being sarcastic...

Re: Kaman sucking without Baron... In the two games Baron missed and Blake started in his place, Kaman's stats were better than his season averages. That's not a huge sampling, but Kaman would be fine without Baron.

I'm hoping Byron Scott comes in, because I like drama. Let's face it, as Clipper fans we don't have much to root for on the court, so drama on the sidelines makes sites like this interesting... Would Baron and Byron mend fences? Would Baron be pushed out? It would have to be one of the other. There is no way Baron could take him on and force Scott out if Sterling is paying him top dollar to take over... Baron would have to get along, be traded, or be sent to the bench Stephon Marbury style (which means don't even bother showing up). All three possibilities would be interesting from a dramatic standpoint...

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sorry!

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Wow, a Hollywood moment with soap ads. Do you think we should bring reality stars on to play in Clipper games just enough to boost TV ratings and ticket sales. We could charge twenty $ grand to allow enough three point tries until one is made. Why pay baron to toss bricks when we could get payed to let fans do it. LMAO

clipper*joe
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SamMays wrote:
Quote:

Wow, some love for Baron, nice!

I was being sarcastic...

Re: Kaman sucking without Baron... In the two games Baron missed and Blake started in his place, Kaman's stats were better than his season averages. That's not a huge sampling, but Kaman would be fine without Baron.

I'm hoping Byron Scott comes in, because I like drama. Let's face it, as Clipper fans we don't have much to root for on the court, so drama on the sidelines makes sites like this interesting... Would Baron and Byron mend fences? Would Baron be pushed out? It would have to be one of the other. There is no way Baron could take him on and force Scott out if Sterling is paying him top dollar to take over... Baron would have to get along, be traded, or be sent to the bench Stephon Marbury style (which means don't even bother showing up). All three possibilities would be interesting from a dramatic standpoint...

Having Byron and Baron on the same team doesn't necessarily mean one has to leave. Sometimes situations change just by time. And when you factor in that Byron was fired for a dismal start to a veteran team like he did, it makes it that much easier to accept things or just bite your tongue and make the best of a situation he was well aware of before he signed. That is if he is interested.

I think a possible fourth ( most likely) scenario ( Things work out) is quite plausible.

jcdigital
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Repped High Quality Post

checkdafool10 wrote:
Miquel wrote:
MrB wrote:
checkdafool10 wrote:
MrB wrote:
Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

I beg to differ. Maybe we aren't watching the same Clippers cause the Baron I see is far from what you've described IMHO. I think the team would be fine with another pg that wasn't so inconsistent and lacked true leadership skills. I think the team we be better off moving in a different direction with a new pg.

Totally agree. Baron has had two full seasons to prove he was the leader of this team but he has failed. He has had too many awful games this season and I don't think his attitude is positive for the team. If Blake was the starting PG in a better franchise like the Blazers, I don't understand why he couldn't be our starting PG. He's a good defender, a good assistant, can drill some 3s and he's a worker man...

As for the coach, I think he should be our first adquisition this summer and I don't have any favourite

the reason the blazers are so good is cuz they have superstar players in Roy and Aldridge. In playing ability and common sense Aldridge beats Kaman by miles. If Blake was so great they wouldn't hav drafted Jerryd Bayless or picked up Andre Miller. How can Baron lead a band of uninspired misfits, that is almost asking the impossible. the reason he takes those strange shots is because no one on else on the team can step up and do anything

yeah seriously blake is not a starting PG. It is why ppl say that he is in contention for being the best back up pg in the league, but never that he could be a great starting PG. In addtion, everyone here expects 1 person to just be our savior without any real substantial time to mesh with everyone on the team. Just like LBJ or Carmelo or Kobe came in and made a horrible team great with in the first 2 years. The Cav's had to still take time to build around LBJ, Carmelo has just recently really become a force and making this team significant contenders due to also have Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, and Chaucey, and Kobe came to a team with Shaq in his prime and a team in which he didnt have to single handedly take the team to the playoffs.

Most of the people on this forum just want baron to do what he did in GS here, and although it is possible because he has the talent, u forget he still had an amazing player on his team named Stephen Jackson. Now all the baron haters will say, well hey he has Kaman who was an allstar, so we should be in the playoffs no matter wat. Well 1. anyone who says baron has not made Kaman better this season has not been watching closely enough. and 2. our team was basically blown up midway through the season by Dunleavy stepping down, and then trading away alot of players. If you thought after Dunleavy stepped down that we were actually gonna change things around after being basically 2 games off .500 I applaud you for your optimism cuz I had such optimism to! But even tho i and many of you wanted to believe it could happen, it was easy to realistically see it would not be the case.

I understand that we all feel baron should be playing better, I will not deny that I share that opinion as well. But to say that he is such a horrible PG and that any PG in the draft that isnt wall or turner would be alright to replace him just to get rid of him, is nonsense. He absolutely is the leader of this team and if you dont see that, then more attention is needed. He seemingly is the only one who wants to win consistently and will even be the first one to get on everyone else's case when they arent doing something right.

And I just like many of you want EJ to be the leader and he has showed that when he wants to win badly enough, he can carry the team just like in first game that blake started as PG. But that is WHEN he wants to win. It was the biggest surprise to me when I heard him answer the question, what made you take the game on your shoulders and get the win, and he said "I just really wanted to win." This was as if he didnt want to do that all the time. If EJ was gonna be the leader, he wouldnt just watch and wait for baron no matter how big of an ego baron has. If you are a true leader, you will demand the ball.

Basically, If we get rid of Baron, we are left with no floor general that is not easily replaceable. I get that sure if we could get an up and coming PG like Rose that even straight out of the draft seemingly has the potential to at worst be a top 8 PG in the league, then sure get rid of baron. But as of right now, Baron is the only one that seems truly committed to wanting to make history and take this team to the playoffs and even further. And if our team is gonna move forward, it is up to us to keep our core in tact so that we dont have to work through another whole season again to figure out who our floor general is.

And btw No FA no matter how good they are, are gonna come in and lead this team to the playoffs. There are no saviors in 1 season. Only strong pieces. Look at Caron butler, Jamison, Richard Jefferson, Rasheed Wallace, and even Vince Carter (he doesnt have to be a savior, just a strong piece to the team).

MannyA
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[quote="jcdigital"][quote="checkdafool10"][quote="Miquel"][quote="MrB"  ]

You are spot on.

Repped +1

Miquel
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Repped High Quality Post

jcdigital wrote:
checkdafool10 wrote:
Miquel wrote:
MrB wrote:
checkdafool10 wrote:
MrB wrote:
Byron is a decent coach that has had success, same as Van Gundy. Casey should not be on the radar as well as Jackson. IF getting Byron meant we lose Baron, it would be just fine with me.

without baron everyone else would just suck. and when he's clutch he's clutch. without Baron, Kaman would be the nothing he is. steve blake is an ok player but he can't do a screen and pop like baron

I beg to differ. Maybe we aren't watching the same Clippers cause the Baron I see is far from what you've described IMHO. I think the team would be fine with another pg that wasn't so inconsistent and lacked true leadership skills. I think the team we be better off moving in a different direction with a new pg.

Totally agree. Baron has had two full seasons to prove he was the leader of this team but he has failed. He has had too many awful games this season and I don't think his attitude is positive for the team. If Blake was the starting PG in a better franchise like the Blazers, I don't understand why he couldn't be our starting PG. He's a good defender, a good assistant, can drill some 3s and he's a worker man...

As for the coach, I think he should be our first adquisition this summer and I don't have any favourite

the reason the blazers are so good is cuz they have superstar players in Roy and Aldridge. In playing ability and common sense Aldridge beats Kaman by miles. If Blake was so great they wouldn't hav drafted Jerryd Bayless or picked up Andre Miller. How can Baron lead a band of uninspired misfits, that is almost asking the impossible. the reason he takes those strange shots is because no one on else on the team can step up and do anything

yeah seriously blake is not a starting PG. It is why ppl say that he is in contention for being the best back up pg in the league, but never that he could be a great starting PG. In addtion, everyone here expects 1 person to just be our savior without any real substantial time to mesh with everyone on the team. Just like LBJ or Carmelo or Kobe came in and made a horrible team great with in the first 2 years. The Cav's had to still take time to build around LBJ, Carmelo has just recently really become a force and making this team significant contenders due to also have Kenyon Martin, JR Smith, and Chaucey, and Kobe came to a team with Shaq in his prime and a team in which he didnt have to single handedly take the team to the playoffs.

Most of the people on this forum just want baron to do what he did in GS here, and although it is possible because he has the talent, u forget he still had an amazing player on his team named Stephen Jackson. Now all the baron haters will say, well hey he has Kaman who was an allstar, so we should be in the playoffs no matter wat. Well 1. anyone who says baron has not made Kaman better this season has not been watching closely enough. and 2. our team was basically blown up midway through the season by Dunleavy stepping down, and then trading away alot of players. If you thought after Dunleavy stepped down that we were actually gonna change things around after being basically 2 games off .500 I applaud you for your optimism cuz I had such optimism to! But even tho i and many of you wanted to believe it could happen, it was easy to realistically see it would not be the case.

I understand that we all feel baron should be playing better, I will not deny that I share that opinion as well. But to say that he is such a horrible PG and that any PG in the draft that isnt wall or turner would be alright to replace him just to get rid of him, is nonsense. He absolutely is the leader of this team and if you dont see that, then more attention is needed. He seemingly is the only one who wants to win consistently and will even be the first one to get on everyone else's case when they arent doing something right.

And I just like many of you want EJ to be the leader and he has showed that when he wants to win badly enough, he can carry the team just like in first game that blake started as PG. But that is WHEN he wants to win. It was the biggest surprise to me when I heard him answer the question, what made you take the game on your shoulders and get the win, and he said "I just really wanted to win." This was as if he didnt want to do that all the time. If EJ was gonna be the leader, he wouldnt just watch and wait for baron no matter how big of an ego baron has. If you are a true leader, you will demand the ball.

Basically, If we get rid of Baron, we are left with no floor general that is not easily replaceable. I get that sure if we could get an up and coming PG like Rose that even straight out of the draft seemingly has the potential to at worst be a top 8 PG in the league, then sure get rid of baron. But as of right now, Baron is the only one that seems truly committed to wanting to make history and take this team to the playoffs and even further. And if our team is gonna move forward, it is up to us to keep our core in tact so that we dont have to work through another whole season again to figure out who our floor general is.

And btw No FA no matter how good they are, are gonna come in and lead this team to the playoffs. There are no saviors in 1 season. Only strong pieces. Look at Caron butler, Jamison, Richard Jefferson, Rasheed Wallace, and even Vince Carter (he doesnt have to be a savior, just a strong piece to the team).

Baron Davis floor general? Maybe...But you can agree with me that he's a horrible floor general.

Baron is one of those NBA players who speaks too much and does nothing. If you want to believe his empty words, ok. But for me, I've had enough. I don't believe in him. That's all.

And btw it seems to me that some of you believe that our PG must be the floor general. Why? Was Ron Harper the floor general in the Bulls or the Lakers? Is Derek Fisher the floor general? Mo Williams? Obviously I want the best PG possible. I'm not in love with Blake, I think he's an average player in NBA, but right now I think Steve Blake could be better for the team than Baron Davis. He won't absorb as game as Baron does. And if we talk about salaries then Davis is definetelly someone necessary to be shipped away as soon as possible.

clipper*joe
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Talk about being blown away!

REPPED!!!!!!

After all the time vested in defending Baron and the situation of this team, I just realized I have wasted all this time while you nailed it on the first one. Embarassed

SamMays
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That was actually my first possibility.... And I think the most likely one in the event Byron is hired... Of course, it would be the most boring of the possibilities, unless it helps make the team a winner.

SamMays
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Re: 1. Clearly Baron has helped Kaman be better. I'm not sure Blake or some other PG wouldn't have done it just as well. Under Dunleavy, Kaman was the focal point of the offense. Now that Dunleavy is gone and our offense is like an all-star game sans all-stars, i.e. play as indivoiduals and hope to get hot, Kaman has suffered, though Baron is still here. Has Baron suddenly stopped making Kaman better? My conclusion is that the Dunleavy system made Kaman an all-star much moreso than Baron did.

Re: 2. Our team was not blown up in mid season with Dunleavy stepping down. That would imply there was something successful in place to blow up. There wasn't. The team had plenty of time to get it together with a two-year nucleus of Baron, Kaman, Camby, Gordon, Thornton, plus a few new pieces. It didn't work. We dumped salaries to put us in a better position to improve ourselves in the off-season... But you can't blame our lack of success this year on changing players. We sucked because we had a bad mix of players/attitudes/court intelligence.

My contention with Baron is not that he's horrible, but that he's overpaid for what he delivers in terms of wins. We don't need to reawaken that arguement. Some agree with me and some don't. However, if he is moved out of here, he will need to be replaced by a capable player. Is that Steve Blake? I like Blake, but I don't consider him an upgrade over Baron, at least not until you put salaries into play and say that we could have Blake + a high calibre SF for what we're paying Baron, which then would be an upgrade (my opinion)... The reality is, I would want Blake and a VERY PROMISING PG PROSPECT...

I think with our young players, we are a team of the future. Baron, at an old 30 (my opinion) and fading, is not a player for our future... That's why I'd like to see him out of here.

Derty_Bert
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I didn't read anybody's post yet so I don't know if it's been said but I was thinking if we got Byron Scott Chris Paul would come here.

jcdigital
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Hoopshype:

Never understood the big fuss about Byron Scott. Much better reputation than resume.

something to think about i guess?

MannyA
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How was CP3's relationship with Byron Scott at the end of their run? I'm assuming if CP3 wanted him to stay, the Hornets would've kept him. Rumors on Twitter are saying Clips focusing on Byron Scott. I wish I knew more about Scott.

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http://www.nba.com/coachfile/byron_scott/ Byron Scott As head coach of the Hornets for the last three seasons, Byron Scott has led the team through a complete restructuring, an unprecedented two-year run playing for two cities due to a horrific natural disaster and a staggering rash of injuries. In fighting through those obstacles, he has instilled the team with the tenacity and mental toughness that helped him reach eight NBA Finals (and win three NBA titles) as a player and coach. Scott’s own standard of excellence has now been adopted by his Hornets as he continues to build them into one of the league’s up-and-coming teams. Scott’s....

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jcdigital
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In addition there is an article on Byron Scott to the Lakers, but this guy really really hates on Byron Scott, might want to look at it to see both sides of the debate. Talks all about how he is really bad at developing young talent, (ex. EG, BG, DJ, and our 2010 Lottery pick). Wow- A lot of hate lol! http://bleacherreport.com/articles/293188-byron-scott-to-coach-the-lak ers-you-better-hope-not To summarize- Scott allows rookies to see a little bit of time, but at first sign of any inexperience, he opts to instead play veteran players who not only are less talented, but clearly have a lower ceiling. His inconsistency with confidence....

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Hooch20
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Time to throw a truck load of money at LeBron and his coach of choice Calipari.

MrB
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I get it, you get it, and Sam Mays gets it. Why no one else does is surprising to me. Repped!

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I've been here for years and haven't started as many threads as I used. Now, I mostly step in when I deem my thoughts are needed. My thoughts are needed. Baron is the BEST point guard we could have, could've had, and can have for at least until after next season. Trust me, I for one have been EXTREMELY disappointed with his play as a clipper. Last year I wanted to...rhymes with angle....his neck for being out of shape and not caring. I know we didn't have a consistent healthy team, but we should have been in the 30+ wins, AT LEAST, last year. This year the guy started really strong. I've been telling all the band wagoners (I live in LA) that we were 17-18 when we found out about the season ending injury, which was where I really expected the team to be at with TWO centers starting in our big 5 line up. He has played really good the last 2-3 weeks or so and played really good half way through the season(35 games or so 17+18). He is what he is a athletically gifted player with the second best ball handles at his position in the league(1st is cp3 of course). The guys main problem on the court is shot selection. BASICALLY, IMHO, there isn't a better player THAT WE CAN GET AT THE 1 than baron davis. If he plays as good as he did in the first half of the season the next three years he would be earning his check. BARON NEEDS TO WORK ON HIS POST GAME SINCE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE SPEED HE USED TO USE TO FLOURISH IN THE LEAGUE ANY MORE. Kaman is a second option at best. He has all the gifts physically but not the gifts needed to be #1 mentally. But I would take him over EVERYONE IN THE LEAGUE AT THE 5 EXCEPT DWIGHT HOWARD. That's my mind, I'm out.

MrB
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Call me crazy but I expect more from Baron who is making 12.5 mil this year and scheduled to make more every year until 2013 when his huge contract comes off the books. It's just my opinion and I know to many I am wrong but I just don't see the player that you may see. I've seen this player that has better stats on the road then at home. He seems to play better for certain teams that have good records but is a ghost for the weaker ones. I'm sorry but I expect more from a player making superstar money. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Hooch20
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Baron needs to be motivated to play. When we were around .500 his play was much better. As of late he's been playing pretty damn good as well. We all know he's not the player that he once was, but he is what he is and we need to except it. We don't have any better options available and there aren't any better options this summer. The best guy this summer is going to be Felton who's more consistent, but is in no way better than Baron. Steve Blake couldn't carry Baron's jock as either. Blake was said to be the best backup PG in the league, I'm not sure he's the best, and he surely is a backup. Baron's also plays better on the road because he feeds off of the crowd. Lets face it... there's not much of a home crowd to feed off of at Staples Center.

This summer we're also going to need Baron's name and charisma to help lure a free agent to town. No big name is going to come here with someone like Steve Blake as our starting PG.

Baron's also responsible for Kaman having the breakout year that he's had. I can only imagine the pick and roll that him and Griffin will have next year.

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Exactly, Hooch20. People love to bash Baron, but from what I see, he's still been playing decent as of late, even though we've been eliminated from playoff contention for a while now. When we had that winning streak over teams such as the Celtics, Lakers, and Heat, I seem to recall that Baron was leading this team with his play during that span. We were talking playoffs, Blake's return, and how we were ready to shock the world. Then all of a sudden everything fell apart in typical Clipper fashion with news that Blake would be out for the season.

And who exactly is out there that we can get that would be an upgrade over Baron at the starting PG? How quickly Clipper fans seem to forget the days where we had guys like Rick Brunson, Doug Overton, Will Conroy, and Dan Dickau as our starting PG. I'll take Baron over those bums even with his contract, thank you very much.

illastrate
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I think the general consensus is we don't trade Baron unless we have a viable replacement. I really don't believe people are going around saying "let's dump Baron and replace him with Mike James or the like." lol

MannyA
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it wasn't superstar money when he signed te contract, it was actually a pretty good contract when it was signed. Then the economy happened.

As for Baron. What do you see? I see a guy that has lost some of his athletism but is still an AMAZING ballhandler and strong enough to make up for his loss of athletism. Everybody complains about his shot selection, but he wouldn't have to shoot so much if the rest of the team could shoot at all. He is a pass first pg who needs talent around him to excel.

MannyA
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it wasn't superstar money when he signed te contract, it was actually a pretty good contract when it was signed. Then the economy happened.

As for Baron. What do you see? I see a guy that has lost some of his athletism but is still an AMAZING ballhandler and strong enough to make up for his loss of athletism. Everybody complains about his shot selection, but he wouldn't have to shoot so much if the rest of the team could shoot at all. He is a pass first pg who needs talent around him to excel.

clipper*joe
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Uh, I beg to differ. There is no general consensus on here about anything. Most here would rather dump his salary at any cost than wait for a viable option. And since there isn't any in the near future and you still have the most vocal here wanting him gone at any costs, I don't see how there is a general consensus on waiting. You either want him on the team or you want him gone now. There is no wiggle room here...at least not with the ones that are speaking up.

SamMays
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^^^ I think with 13,000,000 a year to spend, we will get a viable replacement and perhaps another player and the team will get better going into the future than we will by keeping Baron for the next three years at 13 per year... Obviously, there is no guarantee that I'm right...

But there have been plenty of rumors out there that the team has dangled Baron's name in trade talks... If so, Dunleavy at least, was considering the possibility that we might be better going forward if we moved Baron... Given that he was a brand new free agent signee, if that was indeed happening, it's not a good sign... And, as a Hollywood guy, I've learned that the rumors are always true... In the NBA, that isn't always the case, but I suspect there is at least an element of truth to them. I do believe Baron's name has been dangled actively.

checkdafool10
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alright im watching the clippers play the warriors and im seeing Baron making the team go not seeing Kaman not seeing Gordon do anything special. Especially kaman being as stupid as usual.

illastrate
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clipper*joe wrote:
illastrate wrote:

I think the general consensus is we don't trade Baron unless we have a viable replacement. I really don't believe people are going around saying "let's dump Baron and replace him with Mike James or the like." lol

Uh, I beg to differ. There is no general consensus on here about anything. Most here would rather dump his salary at any cost than wait for a viable option. And since there isn't any in the near future and you still have the most vocal here wanting him gone at any costs, I don't see how there is a general consensus on waiting. You either want him on the team or you want him gone now. There is no wiggle room here...at least not with the ones that are speaking up.

You act like people here want him gone and not do a damn thing to improve the team. People want him gone because they want an UPGRADE at the PG position. For instance, if we trade Baron for a 2nd rounder...we're not only trading him for cap space....the objective is to use it to improve our PG situation. Seems like common sense to me.

MrB
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the whole team looked pretty bad tonight from what I saw. They shot 37%. Thats pretty bad against a bad team. Everyone had a bad night. If u wanna specifically point out Baron's stats, go ahead. I didn't see much from anyone tonight. The talent on this team needs an upgrade if we expect the team to be successful next year. I doubt one player is gonna save this team when they play like they did tonight. Our next coach needs a lot of help.

clipper*joe
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illastrate wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
illastrate wrote:

I think the general consensus is we don't trade Baron unless we have a viable replacement. I really don't believe people are going around saying "let's dump Baron and replace him with Mike James or the like." lol

Uh, I beg to differ. There is no general consensus on here about anything. Most here would rather dump his salary at any cost than wait for a viable option. And since there isn't any in the near future and you still have the most vocal here wanting him gone at any costs, I don't see how there is a general consensus on waiting. You either want him on the team or you want him gone now. There is no wiggle room here...at least not with the ones that are speaking up.

You act like people here want him gone and not do a damn thing to improve the team. People want him gone because they want an UPGRADE at the PG position. For instance, if we trade Baron for a 2nd rounder...we're not only trading him for cap space....the objective is to use it to improve our PG situation. Seems like common sense to me.

I ain't acting, it's on this very thread and a lot more...Just have to take a look.

And trading away Baron for a second rounder is virtually impossible to do so how is that supposed to add this conversation? Trading away for cap space and a second rounder is improving the team in what way? Unless we know what that cap space will get us and who we get for a second rounder, I don't see any sense in a move like that...but that is just me.

SamMays
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Joe, I agree, trading Baron for a second round pick is virtually impossible... However, if we could do it, I think we could improve the team a great deal... 13-million buys a lot of talent if you use it right. Felton, Ariza and our own Rhino have contracts totalling that figure. I would take the 3 of them over Baron any day... I think the team would be better for it. Much better. That's how you improve the team by trading Baron for a second rounder. By using the money more wisely than we used it when we signed Baron.

Of course, of those three only Felton and Smith will be available this off-season, but the is likely another promising or good SF who could be plugged into the Ariza formula... Having 13-million is no guarantee that it will be spent wisely. However, seeing this team perform over the two years that Baron has been here, suggests we have little to lose. I would gladly take my chances and see what Olshey can do with the money.

Baron has been little more than a tease... He had a great month of December for us this year after an awful season last year... He perked up for five games in March and briefly bouyed the hopes of some of his fans before cooling back down to normal, 6 - 18 last night. He is what his stats say he is. A poor shooter, but good assist man on one of the worst teams in the league. He just hasn't been very valuable to us in his tenure. he's a poor man-up defender, though he does gamble and get his steals. He's a very clever passer, but he dominates the ball to put up his assist numbers. I know, so do CP3 and Deron Williams, but Baron isn't in their league. Add to that, his athleticism is fading and we have three years left on his contact after collecting all of 45 wins in his first two season. Add more, his penchant for off-season weight gain... It doesn't bode well for our future to be tied to this guy. The fact is, we can continue to suck just fine without him.

Sure, if we can find a way to move him now, we may have to bite the bullet and take a step back in the short term (though I doubt it if the money is spent wisely), but it would be worth it and a good move in the three-year term.

When teams are losing, like we are, the first thing they do is shed their highly paid, veteran talent... It's why Vince Carter was made available. It's why Detroit is looking to shed Rip Hamilton and Prince... Why Milwaukee would love to dump Redd. A team shouldn't be paying a lot of money to lose a lot of games. That's a clear indication that you have the wrong players... Could some of those players find refuge and success elsewhere, the way Ray Allen did? Sure... Most of those guys have something left in the tank and with the right mix of players, they could well produce for another few years. Doesn't matter, if they're not producing wins for you. Sometimes to take a big step forward, you need to shed what you have, like a home, or a job, etc... It can be a big risk...

I have a good friend who lost his teaching job two years ago in the layoffs. He was depressed and miserable for a long time, but he chose to use the time to pursue his original passion. He became an unemployed actor, which didn't help his self-esteem... Then, last month, he was cast as a regular in a new TV series... He didn't choose to take that risk, but it was thrust upon him...

We need to choose to take the risk of seeing what life will be like without Baron. To see if the money we save can be used wisely.

Is Baron the only problem? Of course not. We have myriad problems; poor outside shooting, indifference to defense, selfishness, poor passers. Is he a fall-guy simply because of his salary? Yes, but only partially... If he were shooting 45% and 37% from three, we'd be a better team than we are, with more wins... But he's not doing those things and we're losing. It's only natural to look at where the big money is being spent and find fault with it.

clipper*joe
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SamMays wrote:

Joe, I agree, trading Baron for a second round pick is virtually impossible... However, if we could do it, I think we could improve the team a great deal... 13-million buys a lot of talent if you use it right. Felton, Ariza and our own Rhino have contracts totalling that figure. I would take the 3 of them over Baron any day... I think the team would be better for it. Much better. That's how you improve the team by trading Baron for a second rounder. By using the money more wisely than we used it when we signed Baron.

Sam, I didn't bring up your idea...just so you know. Having 13 million and picking 3 players that add up to Baron's salary is not how it works. Felton will be making more than his last contract and I presume Rhino will too. Ariza isn't going anywhere and if you want to talk about being overpaid, well, that is the guy you should have on your list.

I am not really sure why I keep arguing this scenario for...like I said, there is virtually no chance of ever making a trade like that.

Quote:

Of course, of those three only Felton and Smith will be available this off-season, but the is likely another promising or good SF who could be plugged into the Ariza formula... Having 13-million is no guarantee that it will be spent wisely. However, seeing this team perform over the two years that Baron has been here, suggests we have little to lose. I would gladly take my chances and see what Olshey can do with the money.

Sam, we already have Rhino on this team and have a real shot at getting him back. If you pay him approx. the same money, it doesn't effect the cap space or go into baron's slice of the cap. It's basically a wash.

Ariza isn't going anywhere and by the size of his contract, he will be hard to move anyway. Long contract for a player who is trying to do 2nd/1st tier duties and fall short big time.

So, if you were GM and you wanted to trade Baron and bring in 3 players that 1) we have one of the players now. 2) one isn't on the trading block and 3) a player who is ok on a bad team who hasn't done a thing until Jackson and Coach Brown got there.

So, in reality, all we could really get is Felton off the 13 million. Ariza not going anywhere, Rhino is still a clipper and even if he was extended, Baron wouldn't have to be traded to do this. It would be a basic wash. And if we really wanted Felton, we could get him as our back-up cause he is nowhere near the top PG's in the league. He is good but not a game changer good. He is basically 3-4 option on his team and that is because of the Wallaces and the Jacksons on the slightly above average Bobcats.

On one hand, you say we need a leader. On the other hand, you want to bring in a 5 yr veteran that is not considered a top pg, much less a leader. You want to bring in Ariza who is NOT leader material and who has made his new team worse. The guy turned into a bad shooter/chucker that can't hit from the outside. You also want to bring back Rhino who has been with us which we can do without Baron leaving. Have you really thought this out?

Quote:

Baron has been little more than a tease... He had a great month of December for us this year after an awful season last year... He perked up for five games in March and briefly bouyed the hopes of some of his fans before cooling back down to normal, 6 - 18 last night. He is what his stats say he is. A poor shooter, but good assist man on one of the worst teams in the league. He just hasn't been very valuable to us in his tenure. he's a poor man-up defender, though he does gamble and get his steals. He's a very clever passer, but he dominates the ball to put up his assist numbers.

Sam, are you aware that Baron is around 3-4 person in shot attempts a night? Are you aware that a PG is supposed to dominate the ball? Are you aware that Baron is by far the best passer on this team? Do you not notice how stagnant the offense gets when he leaves?

Sam, you are forgetting that we are a bad shooting team all around. Butler is our main shooter with comparable numbers to Baron who takes less shots.

Butler:

0.418

Baron:

0.401

If he had shooters worth a damn, baron would be in the top 3 in assists.

If I had a chance to get a PG who dominates 20 seconds of the clock and can get the ball to an open shooter and hit, give me him all day long.

And this misconception of him dominating the ball is completely false. You need to stop reading obviously bias articles on him. Baron has been giving up the ball right around the 18 second mark and has been all year. He will hold the ball too long a few times during games but that is only because the offense isn't moving. Again, watch the next game and see for yourself.

clipperboy24
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if we were able to dump Baron than we can sign a legitimate FA and keep some of the role players eveyone loves.

Also if we are able to get a decent PG in the draft or trade for one, than we are set.

We dont need a selfish me first PG. We need someone who is a good ball handler and distrributes well... Steve Blake would fit this bill very well. Imagine if we actually had a legit go to guy, Steve Blake would be a perfect compliment. Good ball handler high IQ and good facilitator. Lets go for it.

clipperboy24
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clipper*joe wrote:
SamMays wrote:

Joe, I agree, trading Baron for a second round pick is virtually impossible... However, if we could do it, I think we could improve the team a great deal... 13-million buys a lot of talent if you use it right. Felton, Ariza and our own Rhino have contracts totalling that figure. I would take the 3 of them over Baron any day... I think the team would be better for it. Much better. That's how you improve the team by trading Baron for a second rounder. By using the money more wisely than we used it when we signed Baron.

Sam, I didn't bring up your idea...just so you know. Having 13 million and picking 3 players that add up to Baron's salary is not how it works. Felton will be making more than his last contract and I presume Rhino will too. Ariza isn't going anywhere and if you want to talk about being overpaid, well, that is the guy you should have on your list.

I am not really sure why I keep arguing this scenario for...like I said, there is virtually no chance of ever making a trade like that.

Quote:

Of course, of those three only Felton and Smith will be available this off-season, but the is likely another promising or good SF who could be plugged into the Ariza formula... Having 13-million is no guarantee that it will be spent wisely. However, seeing this team perform over the two years that Baron has been here, suggests we have little to lose. I would gladly take my chances and see what Olshey can do with the money.

Sam, we already have Rhino on this team and have a real shot at getting him back. If you pay him approx. the same money, it doesn't effect the cap space or go into baron's slice of the cap. It's basically a wash.

Ariza isn't going anywhere and by the size of his contract, he will be hard to move anyway. Long contract for a player who is trying to do 2nd/1st tier duties and fall short big time.

So, if you were GM and you wanted to trade Baron and bring in 3 players that 1) we have one of the players now. 2) one isn't on the trading block and 3) a player who is ok on a bad team who hasn't done a thing until Jackson and Coach Brown got there.

So, in reality, all we could really get is Felton off the 13 million. Ariza not going anywhere, Rhino is still a clipper and even if he was extended, Baron wouldn't have to be traded to do this. It would be a basic wash. And if we really wanted Felton, we could get him as our back-up cause he is nowhere near the top PG's in the league. He is good but not a game changer good. He is basically 3-4 option on his team and that is because of the Wallaces and the Jacksons on the slightly above average Bobcats.

On one hand, you say we need a leader. On the other hand, you want to bring in a 5 yr veteran that is not considered a top pg, much less a leader. You want to bring in Ariza who is NOT leader material and who has made his new team worse. The guy turned into a bad shooter/chucker that can't hit from the outside. You also want to bring back Rhino who has been with us which we can do without Baron leaving. Have you really thought this out?

Quote:

Baron has been little more than a tease... He had a great month of December for us this year after an awful season last year... He perked up for five games in March and briefly bouyed the hopes of some of his fans before cooling back down to normal, 6 - 18 last night. He is what his stats say he is. A poor shooter, but good assist man on one of the worst teams in the league. He just hasn't been very valuable to us in his tenure. he's a poor man-up defender, though he does gamble and get his steals. He's a very clever passer, but he dominates the ball to put up his assist numbers.

Sam, are you aware that Baron is around 3-4 person in shot attempts a night? Are you aware that a PG is supposed to dominate the ball? Are you aware that Baron is by far the best passer on this team? Do you not notice how stagnant the offense gets when he leaves?

Sam, you are forgetting that we are a bad shooting team all around. Butler is our main shooter with comparable numbers to Baron who takes less shots.

Butler:

0.418

Baron:

0.401

If he had shooters worth a damn, baron would be in the top 3 in assists.

If I had a chance to get a PG who dominates 20 seconds of the clock and can get the ball to an open shooter and hit, give me him all day long.

And this misconception of him dominating the ball is completely false. You need to stop reading obviously bias articles on him. Baron has been giving up the ball right around the 18 second mark and has been all year. He will hold the ball too long a few times during games but that is only because the offense isn't moving. Again, watch the next game and see for yourself.

as far as Baron not having shooters... see Ekker's post regarding players shooting % with and without Steve Nash.

Eric Gordon strokes it among the best in the game and Baron still cant take advantage of that properly. Outlaw also has a sweet touch.

clipper*joe
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Yeah, I saw that but again, did you see Nash's numbers and the shooting % of those guys when he was in Porter's system? wink

SamMays
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Joe, when I said Ariza, Felton and Rhino, I should have made it clear that I was talking not specifically about them as potential players for us, but players who were at a talent and salary level that could be available. We would have to find the new Felton, Ariza and Rhino for this year. I used specific names to illustrate a general point. I should have made that clearer. I know Ariza isn't going anywhere and I know Felton may command more than his current salary, though he may not if the teams with money spend it on the top guys... That's the gamble Larry Brown is taking by letting him go F/A rather than locking him up last year.

Again, Joe, you're taking literally what I meant figuratively. Not your fault. I should have made it clear.

My point was for 13-million, if we were shrewd (and assuming Rhino wasn't coming back) we could get players at similar skill levels LIKE Felton, Ariza and Rhino. Their current salaries add up to Baron's... The point being that 13-million can go a long way when used well.

I also know that Felton isn't a great player and we would remain without the leader a really good team needs. With Baron gone, we would still have those three figurative players, plus enough for a max free agent, who might become our leader. Since in my view, Baron is not a leader either, I'll take the numbers and the youth while you may take Baron.

As to whether or not someone trading a 2nd round pick for Baron is a reality, I haven't lost grip of my senses. Perhaps in the old, pre-salary cap days a wealthy owner might be willing to spend a lot on a veteran player in hopes he can find some magic and help bring in a title. On the right, veteran team, with good leaders in place like Lakers, Spurs and some others, I think Baron could be very valuable. Now, with a salary cap, every dollar has to be accounted for. Fat contracts can make some declining players untradable. I know Baron is going nowhere, but it is interesting to argue about a player's worth and a great way to do so is to ask, "Would you take a relatively worthless second round pick to be rid of a guys salary, so that his money could be used elsewhere in hopes of making the team better?"

I would not take a second round pick for Kaman, Butler, or any other Clipper with the exception of Baron.

When we had Tim Thomas, I would have taken a second round pick just to be rid of his salary. In fact, I think two other teams have already done it since we got rid of him.

That was all I was trying to say with my post. My apologies for not making my intent as clear as I might have.

clipper*joe
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We can sign a legit FA now, not sure why we can't. Furthermore, if we dump Baron, we have to take something back that is comparable to what we give up. That second rounder stuff isn't realistic. And if that happens, we are right where we started from. trade away 13 million and take on 13 million. Unless a team is way under the cap and is willing to take Baron, it isn't going to happen. But guess what? Most those teams have cleared up space for the Super Stars that are FA's.

As far as Blake goes, he serves a purpose and has most of his career. He is a back-up that has played musical chairs with a starter's spot. Don't you wonder why Blake is always let go even after the team has been a play-off contender? He's not quite a starter that can catapult a team and he is above average for a back-up. He is kinda in limbo and has been once teams realize Blake isn't the PG to take them to the next level.

By the way, Blake is playing the second unit against second units and how has he fared or how has he improved the second unit considering he has experience as a starter? Not much, eh? If he can't make the second unit better, I highly doubt he could do any better than Baron.

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