Stop with the Negativity and Understand the Plan (P. 2)

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Steady818
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But those are fun things you just mentioned... Well at least they are fun at the moment then you come to realize that it completely sucks... Waitt sounds like what it's like to be a clipper fan...

anything else sam??

clipperboy24
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Miquel wrote:
LABraves4Life wrote:
Good post Yaroslav!

Miguel, how is the this team worse than last years??? You lost Camby, and Thorton (Steve Blake, Drew Gooden, and Travis Outlaw if you are looking end of season, not beginning). Camby was 35 + years old and had no place on this young team. Thorton was a ball hog who couldn't hit the outside 3 pointer (0.3/game at 31% over career) which is going to be critical to play the 3 next to a killer combo of Blake and Kaman.

NOW, the Clippers added Blake Griffin who very well could be a top 10 player in the league!! They added Randy Foye and Ryan Gome who are both amazing 6th and 7th man depth on any playoff team. So you lost Steve, Gooden, and Outlaw all of which are solid backup players, and replaced them with a top 10 player in the league and two other ideal length/price contracts for new solid backup players.

I think its obvious the Clippers are way better off this year than last year. If you're not certain of it, I can start discussing the depth and potential an Aminu or Bledsoe brings to the table... But, I think half of you get it, half of you will be forever lost, so I'll stop here.

I'm talking about the roster we had last year and it includes obviously Blake Griffin. Although BG was injured he was part of the team.

The outcome of this free agency for our part is we have changed Outlaw, Gooden and Blake for Gomes, Foye and Cook. This is the result of our GM work this summer. Sincerely I prefer the first ones. We had to be able to keep at least one player from Outlaw, Gooden and Blake. Or at least get better replacements

Really BG was not a part of the roster even if he was under contract on the team.

I think BG will be the huge deciding factor for us.

Derty_Bert
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We don't know what kind of player Blake will be so we should get the best talent available to bring out the best in him. If were rebuilding (the last 5 years) then were gonna lose 2 or 3 more seasons not giving him a reason to want to stay no matter what the money looks like, we would kiss all the the youth goodbye. Mostly everbody wanted George but we got Aminu and tuned in to see his skill set and was dissapointed thats the gripe over SL we know those games mean nothing. E Bled and DJ showed flashes Warren can shoot 3's but nobody else really looked NBA ready and 5 of those guys are under contract. We needed a capable 3 not a role player championship teams pick up role players in the off season. It might sound funny I think last years team was better but this team will win more games cuz Blake is back EJ will have a break out season and BD will be at the top of his game and we'll have chemistry with the same starting 5 for the most part.

seanrooks
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that's exactly the point: we haven't been rebuilding at all. we've been avoiding rebuilding. since brand left, we haven't tried rebuilding, but did the exact opposite by panicking and trading for veterans to continue to be in "win now" mode(which is the opposite of rebuilding). that is why once brand left, we felt that since we had a vet in davis, we had to build around him. so we brought in older,talented guys(camby, randolph, ricky d) in a panic, disregarding personality, contract, or chemistry, hoping they would be a quick fix for brand. obviously, it was a disaster, as they realized that despite the talent level being close to what we had in 06, the chemistry was nowhere to be seen. we were overpaying thugs to lose and not get along. we tried one more time(last year) to make a playoff run in "win now" mode and failed again miserably. the team finally realized it was time to go in a different direction, and we had some great pieces to do that in griffin and gordon. that is why camby is gone, that is why randolph is gone. no more older guys on big contracts, no more bad personalities, no more misfits. it's amazing that so many people are pushing to sign shaq or iverson or mcgrady when they embody the exact things that have been our problems the last few years: we have been trying to hard to get a quick fix by signing guys who do not fit with our core guys, who are expensive, who cause problems off the court, instead of being patient and letting our nucleus grow.

now, rebuilding does not mean we are trying to lose. it just means that we are investing in the future of the team, which is griffin, gordon, bledsoe, aminu, and maybe dj and kaman if they stick around. those guys are more important and will be more important for a long time, rather than investing in mcgrady or something for a while, which would not have long term effects.

so we have NOT been rebuilding these last few years, this process has just begun when we realized being in win now mode wouldn't work and that rebuilding with young pieces was a better path to take.

also, in terms of signing free agents in general...i wish the clips had signed someone, but nothing worked their way this summer. but i'm happy we didnt overpay for some washed up guy that will have any negative long term effects.

tense2
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Twisted addict eh....got it. That's all I need...err want to know.

Thanks for sharing.....carry on

pageC4
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While we do have a lot of young guys on our team I question the investment of this team to the future. The signing of Foye, Cook, and Gomes will no doubt take minutes away from the young kids. Hell if we're going to rebuild lets do what OKC did and just hand the keys over to the kids. Lets start with the understanding that it will be a rough road, but it will be learning time so the kids are all going to start period.

Also, the OKC thunder had a fire sale and got rid of just about every old player, while we are still bringing in vets...shitty ones may I add

I think we see the front office flirting with the idea of adopting OKC's blueprint but they aren't quite committed to doing everything that the Thunder did. Also our GM's have not been quite as savy. Just look at last year and how they (OKC Front office) nabbed another great young PG (Erc Maynor) from Utah for nothing. While all the pieces we gave away were only done with cap space in return... no young players gotten back like the OKC manages to do (dude just look at how they keep adding draft pick after draft pick and chosing the right guys).

We see that they are thinking about it but not completely immersed in the idea, and that is the difference between us and OKC. They developed a plan, stayed the course, and didn't do anything to jeopardize. Thats our biggest flaw and why I have my suspicions on the direction this team is goin on. We have two superstars with big contracts: Davis and Kaman, a couple of C level players on small contracts: Smith, Foye, Gomes, Cook, Butler, and a group of young guys: Griffin, Gordon, Aminu, Bledsoe, DJ, Warren (of only whom Gordon has proven to be a good player). Very, very different path than the thunder took.

tense2
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^^Beg to differ...but we have no superstars yet, but we may have gotten lucky and BG turns out to be our superstar, just as OKC got lucky when Durant drop to them. This could be a very good year for Gordon and the deal for Bledsoe will turn out to be very big IMO. Little different path, but hopefully the same results.

Miquel
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LABraves4Life wrote:
Miquel wrote:
I'm talking about the roster we had last year and it includes obviously Blake Griffin. Although BG was injured he was part of the team.

The outcome of this free agency for our part is we have changed Outlaw, Gooden and Blake for Gomes, Foye and Cook. This is the result of our GM work this summer. Sincerely I prefer the first ones. We had to be able to keep at least one player from Outlaw, Gooden and Blake. Or at least get better replacements

Injuries happen!! David Robinson once got hurt for an entire season and the outcome was Tim Duncan and championships!!!

Miguel;, You can not ignore the fact that we will have Blake, and added a young prospect with a ridiculously high ceiling in Aminu. He has the length and body of Danny Manny and is only 19 years old! Trading for Bledsoe was also the result of a team banking on the Clippers curse continuing, so that also came from the Blake injury.

You are so far off from the big picture. The Clippers had Blake, Outlaw and Gooden, but those guys went on to get badly overpaid, other than Blake who signed for half his worth to be on a championship team. The Clippers used their cap space to add all quality players, all quality locker room personalities, and most importantly ALL GREAT TRADING PIECES! Foye, Gomes, Butler, and Rhino are all outstanding trade chips when combined with Aminu and/or Bledsoe because of their contract length and price tags. Had the Clippers retained Butler, Outlaw, and Blake they would have 3 players who would never be trade-able and the Clippers roster would be set in stone. That's not a risk I would want to take.

I insist that BG was in our team last year so I'm not gonna give credit to our GM for having BG back.

I'm not saying about resigning all those players but at least one or two of them. We have no proven replacement for Baron Davis. His replacement is a rookie with a great upside according to many people but who will need some time to adjust his game to NBA, mainly his turnovers as seen on recent SL, and who is not used to run a team (Wall was the PG of Kentucky). Hopefully he'll become in the next Westbrook but it's a bit crazy to start a season with only him as PG backup.

Last year BG was expected to come off the bench because we had Camby and it could give him time to adjust in NBA. This year, as our roster is worse, he'll have to be the starter since day one because we have no other quality PF. I like Rhino. But we can agree he's not a starter in a competitive team.

We don't have any natural SF in our roster. Rasual is more a 2 than a 3, and Gomes is more a 4 than a 3. We had a good player like Outlaw but we just let him walk. There was another interesting player like Josh Howard and the Wizards have resigned him for 4mil$ for one season!!!And our staff simply didn't consider him as an option.

clipsfansincebirth
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Josh Howard is terrible and so is Travis Outlaw, which is why Portland gave him to us and he couldn't even start for us last year, due to his terrible play! ..... Josh Howard is so terrible in fact that when the Mavs shipped him off to the Wizards he couldn't even crack the starting lineup over Al "Ima Black Hole" Thornton who is the starter..............COME ON PEOPLE IF YOU ARE GONNA BE NEGAVTIVE AT LEAST MAKE GOOD POINTS BACKED UP BY FACTS...............RYAN GOMEZ HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BETTER PLAYER THAN OUTLAW, HOWARD, ETC...............HE EVEN GOT PROVIDENCE COLLEGE to the THE NCAA TOURNY.................PROVIDENCE(Can any of you even find providence on a map?)!!!!!!!!!! Gomes will be fine until a trade or something better comes along......Ryan Gomes = Ken Norman (middle class SF, who will do the little things, play good d. and hit open shots, and not turn the ball over)

Miquel
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For your info Josh Howard was the starter in all the games he played until he became injured. Meanwhile Al Thornton was coming off the bench. It's a fact.

I can agree Outlaw didn't perform as expected with us but it's fair to recognize as well he came to us injured and he wasn't 100%.

And sorry, but you lose all credibility when you start writing in capital letters: RYAN GOMEZ HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BETTER PLAYER THAN OUTLAW, HOWARD, ETC. Very Happy Very Happy

SamMays
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Howard made an all-star team... While he's something of a moron and I don't regret not signing him, he's a much better player than Gomes. Outlaw, when healthy and on a real basketball team, is also better than Gomes. What Outlaw played on for six weeks last season didn't resemble a real basketball team with a system and players trying to win... It was just a bunch of players going out to get theirs at the end of a lost season.

clipper*joe
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I'm going to side with Clipsfansincebirth on Gomes being the better player than Outlaw. Outlaw has been in the league for 7 seasons and he only has 32 games started out of the 400 games he has played in the NBA. 7 seasons in the league and has never solidified a starter spot. Don't klnow about you but it doesn't bode well for an argument. He was with the Blazers when they had Darius Miles and Patterson and still couldn't beat them out for a spot. I'm sorry, Outlaw is being over glorified for being the beneficiary of playing on a good team as a role player.

Gomes is your consummate blue collar worker that does his job quietly. Has a better career shooting %, same Career 3 pt shooting %, better assist #'s, better rebound #'s. Put Gomes in Portland and people would be singing a different tune.

When we Acquired Outlaw, there was a Blazers fan who came on board to share his POV on trade. He didn't really have much good things to say about Outlaw so obviously one could see why he was packaged away.

Injury or not, Outlaw didn't play well for us....That's the bottom line. Bottom line? Gomes has had better career numbers & %'s and is a better rounded player than Outlaw will EVER be.

SamMays
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^^^Okay Joe... You talked me into it. Gomes is better than Outlaw... Neither, however, is good enough...

clipper*joe
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^^ Can't argue with that but hopefully it works out. Smile

Grillinnap
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tl;dr

Paragraphs please.

Other than the excitement for Blake Griffin, I am done with being an optimist. Every single offseason we had, I stayed positive. But I am getting tired of the disappointments we always end up with. I won't be happy until we start winning.

Miquel
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Some points to consider:

-I don't remember last time D-Miles played for the Blazers. I mean you are talking about 4-5 years ago...Outlaw was 20-21 years old? Not fair your comment.

-He never solidified a starting spot because he's mainly a scorer and Blazers needed him as an offensive weapon once Roy went to bench. McMillan usually prefers someone more defensive minded like Batum to balance his starting five.

-He was scoring 13ppg in 28 minutes before last season coming off the bench for a quality team like the Blazers. Last year he only played 11 games for them and he had injury problems. This is why his numbers are so low last year. You can't take last year numbers to

-Gomes has started more times obviously but playing for really bad teams like Minnessota while Outlaw has played for a team like the Blazers which have been in PO for years.

-Gomes was traded to the Blazers this summer and he was inmediately waived.

-Outlaw has signed for the Nets for 7mil$? We have signed Gomes for 4mil$? There's a difference.

-Gomes is not a pure SF and he has played a lot of games during his career as a PF, while Outlaws is a pure SF

I agree Gomes is a better all around player and he is better than Outlaw rebounding and assisting but in terms of overall quality I think Outlaw is better.

jcdigital
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Wow love the title of this thread...ppl need to quit being negative and realize we are finally doing things the right way! We are building through the draft...something we havent done in a long time. Ppl have to realize now is the time to be patient and let our core grow together. Even the OKC thunder needed 2 seasons together to really build the chemistry they share today. So just relax and hope that we are at least exciting and athletic this season. cuz that is the surest statement I can make about us at the moment. If we show tremendous chemistry and really perform well, I will be pleasantly surprised.

TheDude
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I couldn't stand Outlaw when he played for us and don't regret missing out him for 7mil. That's one guy, in my mind that Gomes compares favorably against. (Plus I thought he was an a hole in his exit interviews)

But to argue that Josh Howard sucks and all these guys are so much better than him just because he had a knee injury last season. Sorry but it's a joke. Ryan Gomes does not even compare to JHoward and it's not like I'm huge fan of him either.

Howard has been a major contributor on a perennial winner for 6years. Gomes has been a marginal contributor on a perennial loser for 5years. Across the board Howard's numbers are better than Gomes, most of them by a longshot...And he's done it on good teams (better talent, more competition for minutes and opportunities.) Put Howard in Minnesota for the past 5 years and he's a 22ppg scorer easily. He would have signed for 12mil per this season, even coming off the injury.

The fact that Washington signed Howard for only 1year and 4. It's a major disappointment for me. Our FO obviously didn't even give him a look and decided to go with an unknown from Siberia instead...Even as the backup, they decide to take Sool what I would assume is around 3mil instead of Howard. Terrible decision. I like Sool but it's not even close. JHoward is a borderline allstar. These guys we brought in are, some of them, borderline rotation players.

clipper*joe
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  1. It's fair. He has NEVER had a starting job. No matter who was on the team, he couldn't break into a starting spot. I just used those players as a point to say that that was the weakest point to get the job and he couldn't do it then, and he couldn't do it now.

  2. So you admit, he is a one dimensional player, right? Those types of players rarely start. Hence why he was never good enough to get a starters spot.

  3. Miguel, I took his career numbers, not just last season for both players. Gomes has the better numbers across the board.

  4. Gomes played for real bad team, I agree. Outlaw played with better quality players and a coach that has taken them to the play-offs. In a better system for a player like him, he will end up getting the better looks. He is basically a three point threat that had better players around him to get him better open looks. Gomes didn't And they both have the same 3 pt % average for their careers.

  • In a better system with quality players, role players tend to look better than they actually are. See the Lakers.
  1. Gomes was waived but Portland wanted the cap relief and had Babbit in the trade. They got an SF for cheap and didn't need Gomes. That doesn't mean anything. They ended up losing Webster's contract and basically did 2 things:

    A. Got another SF on a rookie scale

    B. lost a contract ( 3 years) in Webster. That was a great move by Portland. Doesn't mean Gomes was crap...They just didn't need him.

  • Camby was also traded for nothing...Just a second round swap. Does that mean he is worth nothing? Same thing happened to Gomes.
  1. The only difference is that the NETS overpaid for a career bench player that is one dimensional. That contract was unnecessary. That is the same type of contract Gooden got with the Bucks. Just cause they overpaid for them, doesn't mean they are worth the money. Why overpay someone when they are not in demand?

  2. I'd rather have a player that can play multiple positions and do more then shoot the three than a player that can only shoot the three and not much else.

Miquel
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Definetely clip*joe one person for having nice discussions.

I agree he has been a bit overpaid by the Nets and I agree he's one dimensional and that's why McMillan never put him starting along with Roy because Outlaw had to provide points for the second unit.

I think it's gonna be a very important test for him this year once he has had the full summer to recover and he'll be a starter for the Nets. I'll keep an eye on his numbers and I'll comment you once the season starts. But I bet you he'll get more than 15ppg this season. I know it's not all about points but they are important.

BTW Camby was traded for Blake and Outlaw and the pick. Isn't it? I'm not 100% sure...

SamMays
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I think it's kind of interesting... Portland passes on Gomes, waiving him, so they can have Babbitt... We don't draft Babbitt when we could and now it looks like Gomes is going to be our starter because we draft a project player at SF in Aminu... Tell me which team knows what they're doing and which team doesn't...

clipper*joe
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Now, I meant that Denver traded Camby for nothing. Just an option to trade 2nd round picks. They just dumped him so they wouldn't have to pay luxury tax. Portland did the same thing.

They traded Webster's contract so they could get under the luxury tax ( 70 million). They signed Babbit and are still over the cap but won't have to pay the luxury tax. With Babbit, they are now at 70 million dollars so they won't pay extra. With Webster still on the Blazer's roster, they would have had to pay about 2 million in luxury tax which would mean that Webster would be costing the team an extra 2 million on that contract next season.

The trade was basically babbit for webster. Gomes was just added to take them out of the luxury tax.

illastrate
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SamMays wrote:
Quote:

  1. Gomes was waived but Portland wanted the cap relief and had Babbit in the trade. They got an SF for cheap and didn't need Gomes. That doesn't mean anything. They ended up losing Webster's contract and basically did 2 things:

A. Got another SF on a rookie scale

I think it's kind of interesting... Portland passes on Gomes, waiving him, so they can have Babbitt... We don't draft Babbitt when we could and now it looks like Gomes is going to be our starter because we draft a project player at SF in Aminu... Tell me which team knows what they're doing and which team doesn't...

Just another day in Clipperland, we pick up their table scraps while they get the main course.

kashimoto
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I just wanted to voice an opinion about the site. There seems to be a general negative attitude that can take over a lot of guys here.

Fire Vinny, fire Doc, BG can't lead a team, CP is over rated, where is our bench, season over.......

I have feelings about all these issues but why not just keep a middle ground until the off season. Then we can all bitch about what we did wrong then.

I love the Clips and want them to win as much as everyone else does here. Are there issues that can be improved? Sure. I just don't see the point of jumping on all that until we are out of the hunt.

This is a site that lets everyone talk about the Clips, good or bad, but maybe lets slow our roll a little.

We are one, right??

AirGriffin
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This site has a good handful of guys that simply don't know how to be positive. Negativity is all I've seen from them. It's hella annoying.

CapsNClips
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Yeah, but imagine how boring this forum would be if everyone was positive. There would probably only be like three threads.

You need the Yin with the Yang.

JQuick32
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In fairness, although the comeback was amazing, the way this team played for most of the game was atrocious. Not everybody's going to be positive when the team is down 22 on their home court after losing the last two games, and people are just venting during the game thread. No matter what the attitude is, we all want the same thing - success for the Clippers - and it's easy to lose sight of that sometimes.

pageC4
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kashimoto, that is the thing about a forum: its filled with varied opinions. we are all bound to encounter opinions we don't like. still, we shouldn't censor people, but for some reason the general attitude on CTB has always been as such: post only praise for our players, when we lose blame refs, and be happy with all free agent acquisitions. that has always been the thing about CTB, tyranny of the majority.

FightOnRon
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Repped High Quality Post

There is a little bit of infighting on this board, there are a lot of opinions that totally disagree with others, there are some that wear their emotions different then others, a lot of causes for disagreements..............but I can promise you this.............let a troll come on board, start in on our team, and it will amaze anyone turning in for the first time how we become a Band of Brothers and knock them back to where they came from.

Stay Strong Clipper Nation, never give up.

Agent0
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Repped High Quality Post

People have the right to be negative, though I'd say constructive criticism is really much better than just being negative. I don't buy not giving fair criticism just because we're fans of the team, that makes no sense, we should criticize, but within reason, but I'm admittedly not in any way partial to the turning on the players, coach, everyone when things aren't going well and the defeatist / sky is falling reactions. It's too extreme for me, but again, people are allowed to have that if they want, but just like people can and are allowed to do that, I think it is equally fair that others can and are allowed to call them out for it too.

So as long as the understanding is there, we should be fine. Constructive criticism is great, being overly negative isn't "great", but you can do it, but I don't think anyone should be expecting a warm reception when at any sign of adversity their response is that some or all of our players suck, the coach is clueless and the team is hopeless. I mean, come on, can't expect no reactions to that, lol.

We're not going to have any point in time with fans where it is just constructive criticism and none of the poles of reactions, but as long as people are willing to take the heat for their wildness, then what's the harm in the end?

kashimoto
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I am all for varied opinions and constructive criticism. I have felt most of the things that have been talked about with the team.

Just wanted to remain calm while we are still in it!

I guess I just get sick of all the "our season is over" stuff before it is.

BaadMaster
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I don't think ANY fans can get used to their team being down by twenty or more points. It is only natural to go into "The sky is falling" or "I am outta here" mode. What I do is what I did Sunday -- I stopped contributing to the game trail and watched to see if a miracle is in the offing. This comeback against the OKC EIGHT (the starting five and three refs) was truly amazing -- especially when BG was given his fifth foul (I think the refs thought that was the coup de grace.) That and a punch to the groin should have done it.

But when you have a team with two legit superstars -- whether it be Kobe and Shaq, LeBron and DWade or CP3 and BG -- you cannot turn off the tube. Give them room to do their clutch magic. That is why they are SUPER stars -- not just AllStars like Danny Granger.

Maybe the sky is falling. But just wait until it has actually fallen.

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