Baron Davis for Augustin, Diop and Matt Carroll Rumor (P. 3)

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ekker3
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lol, yes.

if you realy think about it, with the lockout happening next year, we'll really only have baron for 1 more year (2012-2013). hopefully with that entire year off, he shows up to camp in shape. cry

tense2
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TheDude wrote:
tense2 wrote:
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But look to the end of next season. Diop and Augustin expire. Only Carroll's 3.5mil remains for the 2012/2013 season. Baron makes 14.75mil for that season so we free up an extra 10mil in cap space for the offseason when Eric is a restricted FA. We'll need close to max money to keep him so having that flexibility could be key.

wrong, unfortunately...Diop has a player option for 2012/13 of $7,373,200 mil.

You're right, my bad. Still saving 3-4mil though, that could still make a difference money wise. But the bottom line is get him away from Blake and Eric. Dude is amazing 5% of the time and the rest he's either not playing or turning the ball over or crying to the media that the owner is too hard on him.

the only negative is, in the short term, it's going to be harder for Blake to score w/o Baron. Long term, we can build a dynasty around this kid and we need to surround him with talent and the right personalities. It's not Blake's team until Baron is gone. Sooner the better.

...not sure where we are saving 3-4 mil though......over the life of the contacts with all the player involved...it'll cost us +$900,000 (see my post pg 1 of this thread)

SamMays
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When all is said and done, this is a Clipper's mistakes for Bobcat's mistakes trade... I like Augustine... I think he could be a good player going forward and is likely to improve... If it were Baron for him straight up, I'd do it in a heartbeat... Dumping Baron's salary for a comparable player who makes a lot less is a no brainer.

But Diop and Carroll make this a more equitable trade... The advantage for us is that smaller pieces are easier to move than the big one in Baron... If Olshey can move one or both of those guys for little or nothing, it would be a good trade right away...

Also, I dread going into another off-season with Baron on the roster... Will this be the year he finally gets it and comes to camp in shape and at his best? FAT chance. And what does "at his best really mean for Baron these days?" 3 - 9 from the floor, 1 - 4 from three with 6 - 8 assists and 4 turnovers? That seems to be about all we can expect from him going forward. The first sign that a players legs are gone is declining shooting percentages...

While this certainly isn't a great trade for us, almost any move that sends Baron away will have long-term benefits (if perhaps some short term pain). I make the move and close the book on Baron Davis... Perhaps we suffer a bit this year (but we're not going anywhere anyway), but two years from now we'll be better off having done it.

Pull the string!

BenjaSands
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we arent going anywhere with baron davis as our pg....

we need a pg who can shoot and take over a game doing so (ala sam cassell)

and Dj Augustin isnt that great of a shooter from what ive seen but who knows.....

and i dont think ERic is ready to start yet he makes too many mistakes...

clipper*joe
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TheDude wrote:
tense2 wrote:
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But look to the end of next season. Diop and Augustin expire. Only Carroll's 3.5mil remains for the 2012/2013 season. Baron makes 14.75mil for that season so we free up an extra 10mil in cap space for the offseason when Eric is a restricted FA. We'll need close to max money to keep him so having that flexibility could be key.

wrong, unfortunately...Diop has a player option for 2012/13 of $7,373,200 mil.

You're right, my bad. Still saving 3-4mil though, that could still make a difference money wise. But the bottom line is get him away from Blake and Eric. Dude is amazing 5% of the time and the rest he's either not playing or turning the ball over or crying to the media that the owner is too hard on him.

the only negative is, in the short term, it's going to be harder for Blake to score w/o Baron. Long term, we can build a dynasty around this kid and we need to surround him with talent and the right personalities. It's not Blake's team until Baron is gone. Sooner the better.

So, losing 2 extra spots to players who'll never see time on court ( if the coach is smart) for the same duration of Baron's contract is somehow better than spending 3-4 million? That deal is the same as sending Baron home for the term of his contract and losing 2 spots for the next 3 seasons. Then going out and renting a PG from a team who once was a play-off with that PG getting little to no time on the court.

We lose more than money. We are about the same in salary and years. We lose 2 extra spots for the next 3 seasons and get 3 bench players out of it. 2 of which are overpaid and don't see time on the floor.

For what? Because people think Baron is a detriment to this team? Call me stupid, but I see BG and Baron havign the best chemistry on this team. I see BG and BD communicating on this team. I see Baron screaming up off his seat when when the young guys make great plays. I see BG and BD as the only guys that call huddles during free-throws.

After them meeting on the bus, BG actually called a group circle after that players only meeting in the Bulls game. First time he's done that. Coincidence? I think not. Whether you guys want to believe it, BD has rubbed off on Griffin.

And Baron hasn't complained ONCE this season about staff, owner, or player. Even when asked, he hasn't struck back...ONCE.

ekker3
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and if we did this trade, we'd be locked up 15 million till 2013 (same space as baron).

only difference is that with baron we'd at least get a starter and some production!

ClipfanSince88
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Didn't Paul Silas, the interim coach of the Bobcats, coach Baron when he was on the Hornets? I believe the didn't like eachother. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, I wonder how that could factor into whether this trade gets done or not.

clipper*joe
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I don't think that's right. It was Scott and Baron who didn't like each other. As far as I know, Baron had some of his best years with Silas.

tense2
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...if it's going to take 2 years (which I agree with), then let's not be too desperate, since this year is a learning curve (no playoffs) with everybody involved (coaching too) and perhaps wait for a little better deal. Next year we'll be lucky to play 1/2 a season with the lock out and Baron's contact will be closer to the end...so maybe there's more light at the end of the tunnel.

Those other 2 horrible players with bad contracts and will not be easy to move (signed through 2012/13)...make me want to wait.

Hold the string...for a while.

ClipfanSince88
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clipper*joe wrote:
ClipfanSince88 wrote:
Didn't Paul Silas, the interim coach of the Bobcats, coach Baron when he was on the Hornets? I believe the didn't like eachother. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, I wonder how that could factor into whether this trade gets done or not.

I don't think that's right. It was Scott and Baron who didn't like each other. As far as I know, Baron had some of his best years with Silas.

You're probably right. As I indicated, I wasn't sure. Anyway, if what you're saying is the case, maybe that's another reason why this trade actually might happen.

clipper*joe
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ClipfanSince88 wrote:
clipper*joe wrote:
ClipfanSince88 wrote:
Didn't Paul Silas, the interim coach of the Bobcats, coach Baron when he was on the Hornets? I believe the didn't like eachother. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, I wonder how that could factor into whether this trade gets done or not.

I don't think that's right. It was Scott and Baron who didn't like each other. As far as I know, Baron had some of his best years with Silas.

You're probably right. As I indicated, I wasn't sure. Anyway, if what you're saying is the case, maybe that's another reason why this trade actually might happen.

Maybe. I see the Portland deal as a more likely scenario, though.

Jordan's main reason for the possible trade according to fanhouse is this:

"He wants a point guard not named D.J. Augustin who comes with a veteran's resume and a veteran big man who produces on both ends of the floor. But it's the final prerequisite that is by far the most problematic for most scenarios being considered, as he wants to significantly cut future salary just in time for the new landscape that will come with a new collective bargaining agreement."

Seems to me the biggest reason why they want to make a trade is because they feel DJ isn't the guy and isn't in their future plans. It's no surprise they fell once DJ started running the team and why the players gave up.

So, we get 2 bench warmers and player who was a down grade over Felton, who isn't a very good PG himself. Great!

TheDude
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Carrol 3.7 + Diop 7 = around 11mil in salary for 2012 season. Baron makes 14.75mil that year so it's a reduction on the cap for the season Eric has to be resigned.

I think the bigger benefit is just getting rid of Baron in exchange for one piece that can help...And Diop as a backup allows us to use Kaman to get a legit SF. Deandre is becoming starter quality and he meshes well with Blake, we can afford the supposed downgrade at C in exchange for a big time wing.

TheDude
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Wish I could stay for this one. Interesting topic. Off to Mexico for Christmas.

Have a good holiday CTB.

ekker3
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there's a rumor floating around that orlando would trade redick for a big man (diop's name has been mentioned as a possible big).

tense2
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TheDude wrote:
tense2 wrote:

...not sure where we are saving 3-4 mil though......over the life of the contacts with all the player involved...it'll cost us +$900,000 (see my post pg 1 of this thread)

Carrol 3.7 + Diop 7 = around 11mil in salary for 2012 season. Baron makes 14.75mil that year so it's a reduction on the cap for the season Eric has to be resigned.

I think the bigger benefit is just getting rid of Baron in exchange for one piece that can help...And Diop as a backup allows us to use Kaman to get a legit SF. Deandre is becoming starter quality and he meshes well with Blake, we can afford the supposed downgrade at C in exchange for a big time wing.

...did you forget about the $ for Augustin??

clipper*joe
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tense2 wrote:
TheDude wrote:
tense2 wrote:

...not sure where we are saving 3-4 mil though......over the life of the contacts with all the player involved...it'll cost us +$900,000 (see my post pg 1 of this thread)

Carrol 3.7 + Diop 7 = around 11mil in salary for 2012 season. Baron makes 14.75mil that year so it's a reduction on the cap for the season Eric has to be resigned.

I think the bigger benefit is just getting rid of Baron in exchange for one piece that can help...And Diop as a backup allows us to use Kaman to get a legit SF. Deandre is becoming starter quality and he meshes well with Blake, we can afford the supposed downgrade at C in exchange for a big time wing.

Can't include him. That year, he has a qualifying offer. Meaning that we have the option of giving him the offer which makes him a restricted free agent. If we pass on it, I'm sure we would, you can't count that qualifying offer in the total sum for the last year.

...did you forget about the $ for Augustin??

Can't include him. That year, he has a qualifying offer. Meaning that we have the option of giving him the offer which makes him a restricted free agent. If we pass on it, I'm sure we would, you can't count that qualifying offer in the total sum for the last year.

realbull17
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i hope we give baron davis the boot. he's killing us.

tense2
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...oops, forgot that little tid bit...thanks CJ

jarca
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at first i was like let's do it but the more i thought about it, the more i leaned towards keeping baron. This team is developing right now and Baron has accepted his role. he's not jacking up 3's and letting the young guys take over. if we're gonna trade him we gotta trade him sort of straight up for a pass first point guard. if we get diop that means that kaman might get traded. i dont like that idea one bit. there needs to be some veteran leadership in this team and losing davis facilitating is not good for blake's development and losing kaman as a mentor to DJ and Blake is also not good for their development. Who do i want mentoring our young guys baron and kaman or augustine and diop. i choose kaman and baron regardless of how annoying they've been for the past years

realbull17
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we might have to wait a bit. all the players mention might be going to portland for marcus camby & andre miller instead of los angeles baron davis. no deal for L.A. Sad

SamMays
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Diop is an improvement over Collins, who would likely be dropped... Carroll's contract isn't an albatross. He can be moved... Then it comes down to Augustine vs. Baron... I like Augustine's upside and would take him over Baron moving forward, though Baron could, arguably be the better player at this moment.

I do the trade and try to move Carroll and Diop... Smaller pieces are much more liquid than larger ones... I think this would give us greater flexibility going forward than keeping Baron, who is only going to get worse.

Obviously, this isn't any great windfall for us, but I think it offers a better way forward.

jarca
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I am not oppose to davis and kaman for g wallace augustine, diop and diaw

tense2
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...no, but The Bobcats would be..lol

mj_shoefanatic
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jarca now we're talking!!

Clippers_FTW
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Los Angeles Clippers are a better team with Baron Davis on the floor. You are just silly to think otherwise.

clipper*joe
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It's harder to trade 3rd stringers with 3 years left on a contract. The only way you move pieces like that, is by packaging them up with a better player. That means we have to give up something valuable with it. When you consider what they guys are putting up right now in stats, the longevity of the contract, and the total sum of money, there is now way you move both of them at once. There would have to be more than one trade for that to happen.

We would be stuck with not one overpaid 3rd stringer, but 2, for the next 3 seasons.

Diop shooting 33% for a big man? Carroll shooting 13 % from 3? Jordan making this deal because of DJ? That's the only reason why Jordan wants a trade, he doesn't like DJ running the team. That was obvious before the season started. Their main concern was bringing in a legit PG. DJ is a combo guard, not a PG. Even a GM as stupid as Jordan can see DJ isn't going to amount to much.

Red Alert, Red Alert... All GM's riding the short bus, please be advised you're about to be taken for another ride.

tense2
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comparing Diop with Colllins is like comparing a warm body to a cardboard cut out....Diop is horrible...just horrible and that contract makes it hideous

clipper*joe
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Especially when were talking about guys that don't play unless they're shorthanded or in garbage time.

Like comparing extra screws you get in a bag when you by a product that has to be built. You don't rip the bag open unless you lose a screw. They're pointless until a situation occurs.

tense2
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clipper*joe wrote:
tense2 wrote:
comparing Diop with Colllins is like comparing a warm body to a cardboard cut out....Diop is horrible...just horrible and that contract makes it hideous

Especially when were talking about guys that don't play unless they're shorthanded or in garbage time.

Like comparing extra screws you get in a bag when you by a product that has to be built. You don't rip the bag open unless you lose a screw. They're pointless until a situation occurs.

...yep...chuckle

david
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I don't know about this Clipper trade rumor- Matt Carroll has declined to the point it looks like he's ready to retire. Diop is getting up there too. Augustine is not better than Baron. So from a getting better standpoint, I wouldn't do this trade.

reboundrate!
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I'm curious to see how DJ Augustin would play with a new team. Raymond Felton averaged 12 and nearly 6 assist (identical to DJ now) in his final year in Charlotte before heading to New York, now he's blowing up. (granted D'Antoni's offense may be part of that). Diop and Carroll's roster spots don't really bother me considering we have some expiring contracts leaving after this year- Rasual, Warren, Jarron

david
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Actually I just looked like Augustine's stats- he seems to be a better shooter than Baron, assists numbers are decent, plus of course he is way younger (and thus presumable less injury prone than Baron). So yeah this may be a good trade after all, especially if we can pry a first round pick from the Bobcats.

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clipper*joe
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You want to call people fools? Well, you need to start your rant again.

illastrate
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I find it amusing that every general NBA forum I've been on, the near unanimous consensus is that people are clowning MJ and the Bobcats for even considering it. Yet we as Clipper fans are the only ones having mixed opinions.

clipper*joe
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I agree they look better but there is more to it than that, IMO.

Before the season started, Charlotte main concern was getting a PG. They couldn't find one so they went with what they had. The players stopped playing, the players stopped listening, and Jordan fired the coach.

Jordan's first order of business has been looking to trade DJ and get a PG to run the team. Despite having decent numbers, Jordan wants him gone. That's the reason why he is trying to package a deal. It's really not about Caroll or Dip, it's about DJ.

You can look no further than last year's team. They made the play offs with the same squad, save the PG. This year, with a group of the same veteran's, they have regressed badly. That's why Jordan wants to DJ out.

clippersfan85
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I think this deal isn’t great but I don’t think we will get a great deal for Baron. Augustin seems like he would fit in ok here with Bledsoe starting. Carrol could give us a decent 3pt specialist with the absence of Brian Cook. Diop is the biggest question mark for me in this trade. I do think he is an improvement over Collins though. It will be interesting to see if these guys flourish with more freedom under VDN. We just need to get this done when we still have the chance before Charlotte swings a trade with Portland.

clipper*joe
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You also have to consider we are one of the least followed teams in the league. Most other forums only hear and read what the national media has to say. Most of the general media get it more wrong than right.

One of the things about Clippers fans is, they are usually more aware of other team's than the opposing fan's awareness of what goes on in Clipperland.

clippyclip
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I think that's probably because the majority of NBA fans don't watch Clippers games and form their opinion of BD based on the negative press he's been getting lately, while we actually watch all of the games and see that the team is better with him on the floor and that a special chemistry is developing between him and BG.

clippyclip
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^^Haha, Joe you beat me to it!

clipper*joe
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Cause it was a pretty straight and simple answer.

david
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clipper*joe wrote:
david wrote:
Actually I just looked like Augustine's stats- he seems to be a better shooter than Baron, assists numbers are decent, plus of course he is way younger (and thus presumable less injury prone than Baron). So yeah this may be a good trade after all, especially if we can pry a first round pick from the Bobcats.

I agree they look better but there is more to it than that, IMO.

Before the season started, Charlotte main concern was getting a PG. They couldn't find one so they went with what they had. The players stopped playing, the players stopped listening, and Jordan fired the coach.

Jordan's first order of business has been looking to trade DJ and get a PG to run the team. Despite having decent numbers, Jordan wants him gone. That's the reason why he is trying to package a deal. It's really not about Caroll or Dip, it's about DJ.

You can look no further than last year's team. They made the play offs with the same squad, save the PG. This year, with a group of the same veteran's, they have regressed badly. That's why Jordan wants to DJ out.

You have a point Joe- personally I haven't seen Augustine play much so I can't really say. You have to admit though with Blake drawing all the attention Augustine would help with his better shooting. Plus Baron is getting older and one the decline. But one thing I'm afraid might be missing is that if Baron does get traded is the ability to throw all those great lobs to Blake for easy baskets.

pageC4
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Great post+1

pageC4
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Couldn't have said it better. I think that we will see a slight decline in Griffins numbers, not drastic mind you, but rather than putting up say 24-25 he might put up 20 points. Davis and Griffin have a great ability to complete ally-oops. However, that might be offset by the attention that Augustine might draw. If he is a better scorer than Davis then he might command more attention, and thereby free up Griffin to do some damage up front. Either way I think it will work out to where Griffin may not be affected as much as we all think from Baron's absence

clipperboy24
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I like Augustine and have liked Augustine for a while. it seems most people on this forum havent watched him a lot. As for Diop and Carrol, both would be very serviceable here and much easier to trade than Baron.

As for Baron being unloaded, ui think its more out with the old, in with the new mentality and the fact that the upside of Baron is non existant and the downside is rather large, including a very negative attitude and utter laziness.

clipper*joe
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here's the thing with me, david:

What does this potential trade do for us? The money and duration is about the same. We get a center who is a bust. he is shooting 33% from the field. A big shooting 33% when most of their points come in the paint is horrible. Not to mention that his contract is 3 yrs long. He'll be making half of Baron's contract sitting on the bench playing Collins' role.

Caroll who is making 4.5 million is shooting 13% from the 3 pt line. He doesn't have a role in Charlotte. He is basically a spot role player. He also has a 3 yr deal. We're basically paying Baron's salary to 3rd string players that won't see playing time. Not to mention we will have 2 less spots for real rotation players. You factor in the money these guys are getting and the duration of their contracts, there is little chance you can trade these guys without giving up something big in the process. mind you, it could take 2 trades to get it done.

The other thing that bothers me is that DJ is more of a combo guard and is very undersized. We'll have a hard time playing against teams with a big back court. Now, the question I keep asking myself over and over, how does this trade help us in the now, and in the future?

In my opinion, it doesn't help. Caroll or Diop are not going to help us, they don't bring anything to the table. DJ might help us but unfortunately for us, his contract ends sooner than the other guys and that means he will get another contract if he merits it but what if he doesn't? We'd still be stuck with 2 bad contracts for at least until the trade deadline, the following season.

I'd rather wait for an expiring contract. that way, we don't have to deal with overpaid 3rd stringers and we don't eat up our roster in the process.

clipperstown
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Alright, I say we make this trade. Then, we make a trade with OKC because Sam presti is looking to make a trade or 2. We trade baron for augistin, Carrol, and diop. Then, we trade kaman and diop to the thunder for expirings ( they have ALOT if these) AND we get our pick back from them.

clipper*joe
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I don't think they need another 2 centers with contracts over 2 years.

Why would they trade expiring contracts to take longer contracts back when they have a legit center now?

tense2
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...yeah...that'll work..lol

SamMays
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While this trade may look marginal at the moment, with Baron playing marginally well, after being out and/or ineffective for the first quarter of the season, keep in mind the player we would be keeping...

How will not making the trade look next year if Baron doesn't keep himself in shape in the off-season again, which is a very real possibility? Or if Baron continues his rather steep athletic decline? Or if Baron fights with VDN, or if Baron continues as the worst shooting starter in the league?

Baron is not likely to be an asset to this team going forward. Augustine could well be... Diop and Carroll can be moved more easily than Baron can, which is an improvement...

If you think about the future of this team, I think moving Baron in this package is the right thing to do. Bottom line, Baron isn't getting it done in a significant enough way to justify keeping him or hoping he'll improve... He's a declining asset... rapidly so.

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