Baron Davis for Augustin, Diop and Matt Carroll Rumor (P. 5)

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TheDude
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If the Knicks get Melo, I could see them looking for a guy like Baron to compliment him and Amare. If they don't, they probably wait a while and try to get CP3.

I've been thinking about Phoenix too. They're making desperate moves to try to win now before Nash falls apart and they have buyers remorse regarding JChill. They have way too many SF's overall. Nash and Baron are best buds of course. Baron can play a little off guard so it's realistic for them to be out there together.

We probably don't want to trade him within the conference but they could be a possibility.

Dragic, JChill, Dudley for Baron + Gomes. Good for them in the short term. Great for us in the long term.

Clipper_Richard
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Trade won't work moneywise, cause Clippers will take in $10,000,000 with those 3 players and Suns will take $17,000,000, plus Suns high on Dragic

TheDude
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I used their trade exception for Gomes. Trade goes through on TM.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=2dhk37p

Taylor
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Let's hope this trade goes through on Christmas this year ( Baron to Bobcats for DJ, Diop & Carroll ). Will be the best Christmas present I get this year.

david
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As much as I feel resentment towards Andre Miller also, he would actually be a great fit for the team. He's great at throwing lobs and can nail that mid range jumper. That would be ironic him and Blake on the same team after that vicious foul he committed on Blake.

jarca
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i dont care about wat happened 7 yrs ago. besides, he fulfilled his contract and left after 1 year. baron however have dogged this franchise for 3 consecutive years

clipperboy
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baron is a game changer when he plays to his full potential. If we're going to move him then we need to get somebody back thats worth having. the bobcats have nobody that fits into the future of the direction the clippers are going. We need to start looking at iggy, t. evans, j. flynn, or even d. harris

SamMays
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Augustine would be a nice piece going forward... As far as "Baron is a game changer when he plays to his full potential" goes, how often in the last three years has that been? We've had some good players around him, Kaman, Camby, Blake, Gordon, Mobley, Z-bo... That first year, we might have gotten off to a good start, but Baron showed up at 235 and had an injury plagued, miserable year after having to go on Jenny Craig to make it that far...

Oh, the hell with it... It's too old an argument... Bottom line, we've hit bottom in the last half of last season and now we're going forward. The future should not include Baron Davis... If Olshey wants to keep him the rest of the year, fine. Hopefully, he'll play well and the team will stay as competitive and exciting as it's been this season, though little of that has to do with Baron Davis... Though, to squelch an argument, the team often plays better with Baron on the floor.

Taylor
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FOR THE LAST AND ONLY TIME IT'S AUGUSTIN NOT AUGUSTINE. GET IT RIGHT

Taylor
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Word is on another Clipper forum that Charlotte is trying to see how Portland feels about taking on Diop, Augustin and Wallace for Andre Miller and Camby. Problem there is, they will not have a C at all really. Diop is OK to play 8-20 minutes a game, and Pyzbilla can sorta do the same, but he's massively injury prone. On top of that, they are stacked at SG/SF as it is right now.

LAC_12
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What?! I disagree. Camby can put up points, hes just not an offensive machine. If Blake is doubled Camby will capitalize, UNLIKE KAMAN.

Clipperfn4lf
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OMG stephen a smith is reporting this deal with go down after christmas night

Clipperfn4lf
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christmas fools

tense2
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...link...and what deal...Portland or LA??

pageC4
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^^^Baron Davis is here to stay guys sorry...

pageC4
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Clipperfn4lf
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i said christmas fools guys

jcdigital
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LAC_12 wrote:
Hooch20 wrote:
I don't want Camby on this team again. Sure his defense would be nice, but his offense would kill the team. Teams would sag off of him and clog the lane creating problems for everyone.

What?! I disagree. Camby can put up points, hes just not an offensive machine. If Blake is doubled Camby will capitalize, UNLIKE KAMAN.

camby is offensively challenged. But he would do well next to BG just like DJ does because he just gets offensive rebounds and can provide weak side d to help BG. I would love him back, but there is no denying that he has no real offensive game.

And btw this trade does not make us better AT ALL. Carroll doesnt belong in the nba, diop is no better than jaron collins, and augustin had promise but even after all this time he is just as good as bledsoe, maybe even worse. This trade in no way makes us better, it just gets rid of a player that we like to put all our problems on.

pageC4
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^^^JCDigital, I'm glad someone brought this up. Getting rid of Baron DAvis will not make us better, and as you brilliantly noted DJ Augustin's numbers are only slightly better than Bledsoes. If Baron is traded we will not miraculously see a rise in the win column. However, where getting rid of Baron comes in to play as a positive is that we are rid of a three year compromise with him, and the three players we bring in as exchange will be easier to move. So the positive thing from moving Baron is that we can have potential to finally move that contract via three smaller pieces instead of one large one that few people would be willing to take on.

Still knowing the impotency of this front office even if we do rid ourselves of Baron and Augustin, and these other players and get mad cap space..expect nothing in return. Our front office did nothing this offseason, and they will do nothing again.

Miquel
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You hit the nail saying it's easier to move 3 small contratcs than Davis one. It should be the main point in this trade. Furthermore we get a nice PG in AugustiN who I think can be a really solid starting PG, once he's released from Brown's chains. He's a true PG. That's something we can't say about Bledsoe.

I'd be very happy to see Baron leaving

clipper*joe
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It's easier moving smaller contracts but you have to take into consideration what those contracts entail.

Caroll who is a 3rd string spot duty player has a 3 year contract worth 12 million. The guy is shooting 13% from the 3 point line. That;s why he got that contract, for his long distance shooting.

Diop has a three year deal worth 21 million. The guy rarely plays and is also a spot duty player behind Kwame and Nazr. We don't need another Jarron Collins. Collins is making peanuts compared to Diop. Diop is also making 33% of his shots which means he sucks for a big.

You're basically bringing in one serviceable PG that even Jordan doesn't want. Neither did Brown. As you can tell, the Bobcats suck this year with the same squad.

With that said, sure you can move those contracts but you ain't going to move them on their own merit. We'd have to tack them on another contract that might take some talent. And it might even take 2 trades.

For what? a PG who can't play defense and is really an undersized SG?

I'd rather take on an expiring contract for Baron than have to worry about more 2 smaller and more destructive contracts in Caroll and Diop. They're are smaller but they're worse than Baron's.

Taylor
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People need to be taught a lesson here and I'm gonna school you. Carroll is 1-7 in 3pt shots this year. It's not like he's 5-43 right now. he's rarely getting shots and rarely getting playing time.

We all know Baron is a cancerous player and is in no way shape or form a part of this teams future. I can see as to why the FO would want to make a deal like this.

1 - They want to get rid of a player that has performed well under subpar for the team, and is making headlines in the worst kinds of ways, thus making our team look worse than it is.

2 - They have faith in Eric Bledsoe and want to help move him along faster. After all we did give up a future 1st rounder for this kid, and he's played well so far.

3 - Augustin doesn't make much money, and is playing well. He does have a little upside left in his game, and will be a great addition to this team because of his contract, age, skill and ability to play the 1 or the 2. He also gives us a more capable player either starting or playing back up than Baron

4 - Diop has never been an offensive juggernaut. He rarely gets to shoot, and that's because he's not an offensive minded player. Diop rebounds, blocks shots and plays D. Diop is 10x's the athlete Collins is and I don't careif Collins is making 1$ a year. Diop has a horrific contract I'll give him that. But, see 5

5 - Kaman has been part of trade rumors for years. Teams around the league have wanted Kaman for years. Philly was rumored to be wanting to trade Iggy for him earlier this season. Acquiring Diop's bad contract would be a down side, but if Kaman is moved for someone ( that can play the 3 more than likely ) Jordan will start and Diop will be his primary back up.

6 - Carroll and Diop could theoretically be moved as their contracts aren't as giant as Baron's. I believe ClipperJoe said it earlier in this thread that it's easier to move smaller contracts than it is 1 giant one. And that is the gods honest truth. Look when Carroll does get playing time what he can do and how well he can hit the 3. I'm not saying he's going to get a ton of playing time here, but he can however be effective. He's playing garbage minutes when the Cats are being blown out by like 20 points. Nobody that comes on the floor during those few minutes puts up stellar numbers, and that can be accredited to the fact your team is sucking, bad. It's at that point no direction is given to players and no plays are called. It's a virtual free for all.

LASTLY - Baron Davis' trade value is apparently monstrous according to people on this forum. I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again... People here wanted to buyout Baron's contract. They wanted to release him, they wanted to trade him for anyone or anything. Now that a team apparently has shown interest, and there's a rumor going around of us acquiring some players for Baron, everyone is outraged that such a magnificant hall of fame, legendary player like Baron DAvis would yeild such a low turnout in terms of what we would get back for him.

Frankly people, were lucky anyone has even called about Baron Davis at this point, I didn't expect we'd get a call until sometime next year, but more than likely his final year for a trade to a team that wants some big time cap relief. And don't be surprised if for some odd reason Kaman is shipped WITH Baron to make the deal more sweet so we can actually get something that people will be more pleased with, such as Wallace, Augustin, Diop and Carroll. But then again they will probably say we gave too much or it was because of Baron Davis that we got Wallace which is a facade.

Give it up, I pray this happens. We'll be a better team going forward. I'd love to see our bench and our team have some stability in terms of contracts and players remaining on the team. And if we gotta give up kaman and / or Baron then so be it. Diop is better than people think, and Carroll has HARDLY shot the ball. Augustin doesn't put up giant assist numbers because S Jax and Diaw control the ball a lot there and get 3-5 a game themselves. Not to mention that Gerald Wallace dishes a few assists out and gets around 20 a game. Hard to put up mass numbers when you aren't the first optipon ebcause of a ball hog in S Jax, a dynamic player in Wallace, a PF that IS Boris Diaw who can play any position on the floor, and your just the guy that brings the ball up in Larry Browns amazing coaching.

pageC4
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^^^Taylor this was an amazing post...damn near got a hard on reading it lol.

clipper*joe
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Allow me to correct your mistakes:

  1. Baron isn't cancerous to this team despite what you think. The team has the only winning streak this season with Baron....Despite EJ not playing great. That winning streak started after he and the vets on this team had a meeting...And while EJ was struggling.

  2. They don't want to get rid of Baron, despite what you might think. That trade was based off nothing but a Yahoo! ( pun intended) who wrote a rumor. I've already disproved that in this very thread. Unless you have a direct quote, I'll chaulk this one up as, just talk.

  3. If they want to get rid of a cancerous player like you say, why is Baron starting for us? After all the "headlines"?

    I agree that they have faith in Bledsoe but not enough to take the job away from Baron.

  4. Augustin doesn't make very much, that I agree with. But let's face it, the Bobcats, Jordan, and Brown didn't want him to lead the team in the first place. The only reason why he started was because they couldn't find or trade for a PG in the off-season. They have the same starters yet they have a worse record. That led to the firing of Brown and now making a desperate move to DUMP HIM! Lotta upside. he's having his best year but he made his team worse in the process.

  5. Caroll might not have shot much this season but if he was great, why is he getting spot duty on a bad team? He doesn't really break into the rotation

  6. Diop is getting more than Artest a season to mildly put things into perspective.

    Who's goiing to want to take Caroll or Diop's contract by themselves? Maybe in their third and last year but NOBODY is going to want to trade with us unless we agree to take worse contracts in return.

    That's going to lead to making other trades with some of our better players just to dump them. So while you quoted me correctly, in theory , it is easier to move smaller contracts but these guys don't have small contracts. They might be smaller in terms of money but they add up to almost the same amount. Diop and Carroll don't equal an old and lazy Baron. I'd rather worry about one player than get stuck with those guys. And yes, that also includes DJ. He's the real reason why they want to dump them as a group.

The point is moot anyway, that rumor was shot down a while ago.

MannyA2
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Joe, theres has been various Rumors from reporters saying that teams GM have told them that the Clippers have been trying desperately to trade Baron. They even have tried to package him with Kaman to try and get rid of him. I know your gonna say they are just Rumors blah blah blah. As for Baron being a cancer, it's just opinion. Taylors opinion is that he is, yours is that he isn't, that all opinion.. In my opinion, the Clippers record since they signed Baron speaks for itself.

clipper*joe
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There's been one rumor that the rest have sprung from. That all came from the same source. Well, we've found out that source has no validity. And as much as you want to downplay a rumor, you cant...It's a rumor. The clippers record speaks for every player that has played in the year's you speak of. That includes kaman, Gordon, and Baron. No team's record reflects one player and no one player is responsible for the teams's record.

I am aware that just about every subject is purely opinion, even when you use facts to substantiate it, it's just opinion.

When I said let me correct you, it was a play off this comment:

"People need to be taught a lesson here and I'm gonna school you."

MannyA2
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So Joe, do you think the Clippers have or haven't been trying to trade Baron? Do you think there is anybody harder to trade than Baron besides FElton Brand?

pageC4
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Baron is very hard to trade right now

MannyA2
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I know, I want to know what Joes answer is to those questions.

clipper*joe
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I don't know and I ain't pretending to. What I do know is that the rumors have no legs. Lisa Dillman confirmed it and I haven't heard Olshey or VDN say anything.

Let me flip the script on you. How do you know they are trying to trade him?

What comments have you heard that tells you they are trying hard to trade him? Without knowing the rumors are true or not, what makes you think he is the hardest player to trade? I keep hearing that from a few of you but I've never heard a reason for it. Baron hasn't brought us success but neither has the rest of the guys that have been here either.

I ain't speculating one way or another. You guys are dead set on thinking he is on the trading block yet I haven't heard ONE rumor since he's been here confirming there was an imminent trade that fell through.

Until you support your opinion, I don't see why you expect answers from me. Maybe you should be the one making a case before you ask me to. Just say'in.

MannyA2
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Besides common sense?

clipper*joe
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That is also an opinion based on no facts.

SamMays
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Rumors are virtually never confirmed by the front office. Rarely will a team say they are actively trying to trade a player. That lowers a player's value, like announcing you have eight high in poker.

I can't substantiate it with personal or credited knowledge that the Clippers are "trying desperately to trade him," but there a lot of facts that create circumstancial evidence to suggest the Clippers have actively tried to trade Baron.

  1. DTS hates him.

  2. He is overpaid

  3. VDN has had issues with him.

  4. Rumors continue to circulate about trading Baron... The maxim in Hollywood is that the rumors are ALWAYS true. This may be less so in the NBA, but there are often leaks coming out of team offices that can't be attributed that do spur these things on... Where there is smoke, there is often fire.

  5. He's been out highest paid player and we haven't won in his tenure.

  6. The team does like Bledsoe.

  7. In his early 30's, Baron doesn't fit into the team's projected future. He will almost certainly be moved in the next two years. Why not try to move him sooner than later?

  8. We are playing for lottery position this year... If we lose a few more games than we might have by keeping him, that can bring us a better player in the draft.

  9. Many NBA commentators who have written about this trade have said it does make some sense for both teams... (And, I think it does.)

As to this particular trade making some sense...

  1. Two smaller contracts (even bad ones) are easier to move than one big bad one... Though, admittedly, neither is enviable.

  2. Augustine has upside and would be a better fit and is arguably as good as Baron right now.

  3. Augustine fills a need for a shooter much better than Baron does... He's a 40% career three point shooter.

  4. Given playing time, which he admittedly might not get, Carroll is an excellent shooter from deep.

  5. Diop is grossly overpaid, but would be a better backup than Collins.

As to whether or not it will happen; I strongly doubt it. I suspect this was discussed, tabled and then leaked... It was dead before the rumor began.

Taylor
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Sam - repped.

As for Clipper Joe, read Sam's reply, very well constructed and those exact points have been made time and again in this thread.

I can tell by your avatar you are a Baron fan. I was once a fan of his as well, long before he even left college. Owner of a Hornets and Clippers jersey, as well as following the guy yearly I was excited when he came to LA. However, I feel and many others that his time has come here.

Sam made a good point, were basically fighting for a lottery position right now, pending a miracle. If Baron can be moved for the said playersin question, we stand a good chance to hit the top 5 of the lotto and get Barnes or the kid from Ohio State, both play Sf and both are highly talented. They would secure our need for a SF. Thus, giving us good, and quality depth at every position minus PF. But most teams don't normally have a terrific or highly qualified back up for their super star. Pg we'd have 2 young talented guys, Sg we'd have Gordon and Foye, ( Draftpick here ) and Aminu at the 3, Kaman and Jordan at the 5and Blake standing tall at the 4.

I'm not saying give up on the season, but it's looking more and more like were going to be in the top of the draft again. But I do think that with Augustin here, we have a chance to win more games. Baron's out of shape and has been injury prone his entire career. We'd have DJ and Bledsoe at point who are both healthy, and run the floor at a quick pace, and are pretty much as good or better than Baron is right now in his career.

I entertained your point about Diop and Carrolls contracts in my head for a bit. Wondered, who would want those bad contracts? Mysterious things happen in sports, and with the economy still on the fritz, and NBA teams looking to cut salary, it's possible thatboth or one of those players could get moved at year's end or next year for a player of better quality thats got a longer contract. More of an, immediate cap relief for teams that have players that are serviceable, good players that may have 2 more years on their contract compared to the 2 left that Diop or Carroll may have, and would be willing to take those guys in return for us taking someone that is probably a veteran, to make room for that teams rookies and young talent.

clipper*joe
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Sam - repped. As for Clipper Joe, read Sam's reply, very well constructed and those exact points have been made time and again in this thread. I can tell by your avatar you are a Baron fan. I was once a fan of his as well, long before he even left college. Owner of a Hornets and Clippers jersey, as well as following the guy yearly I was excited when he came to LA. However, I feel and many others that his time has come here. Sam made a good point, were basically fighting for a lottery position right now, pending a miracle.....

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Clipper_Richard
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@Taylor... I don't get how you could say Brian Cook isn't a qualify back-up for Griffin when Cook spreads the floor, hustles everytime he's in the ballgame and is a good shooter. Rhino & Cook imo are quality back-up for Griffin.

SamMays
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As for Lisa Dillman, journalists like that are often used by the team to refute rumors; i.e., Baron isn't being shopped or going anywhere... Her stories, or tweets are likely little more than disinformation put out by the Clips... There are a lot of reasons teams use disinformation; to cover their tracks regarding a player they tried to trade but couldn't so they don't embarrass themselves or the said player, to keep a player happy and playing hard, to keep the other players focused on the immediate goals of winning and playing as a team without having to worry that one of their mates might not last the week, to keep from looking desperate to make a move, which lowers the value of the player.

What the Clips are really up to, who knows. As I said earlier, I don't think Baron goes this season.

However, this was one of the few rumors regarding Baron that looked like it made some sense. I suspect it was considered (as most prospective trades are) then shelved (as most prospective trades are). I just can't see anyone else wanting Baron... Most teams already have a PG who is superior to Baron, younger than Baron, or cheaper than Baron, or are looking to rebuild and don't want to take on a big salary for a fading vet... Injuries could change all that... If Rondo were to get hurt and be out for the season, Boston could be a buyer. Other playoff contenders could also in the event of their PG going down. But as teams stand now, I don't see anyone wanted to add Baron.

Could this trade be revisited? Sure... Under what circumstances? Charlotte would have to think they have a realistic possibility for the playoffs this year and next. Otherwise, it would make more sense for them to go down the tubes with what they have.

prokreation
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Why is everyone so concerned about Who is going to pass alleyoops to Blake?

OH NO! If Baron is gone, we're going to miss out on 4 points a game bc no one else on the team knows how to throw an Alleyoop to Blake and we won't be on Sportscenter anymore...

Baron is one of the most overrated, overpaid players in the league period. 13 million a game for awful defense, atrocious outside shooting, rapid decline in health, and most of all, a decline in leadership. You can't lead by example when you yourself are a poor example or worse, a hypocrite.

If the most high paid player and leader of your team is out of shape, why should anyone else take you seriously?

TRADE BARON. Cut our losses and lets move forward. YES, for DJ Augustin who is entering his prime and can learn to throw lobs to Blake Griffin in three practices. Practice??? Yes Practice.

And Yes, trade Baron for whatever Flotsom, Jetsom, they want to include with DJ Augustin in the deal. A Center that just plays defense and hacks people and 3 point shooter that can regain his confidence.

Please trade him. while his value is still somewhat respectable.

prokreation
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Sorry, I mean 13 million a year... not a game. I'm sure it feels worse to cheap DTS.

ClipThemOff
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no trade

the team needs to stick together right now during this big run

big_giddy
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repped. merry Christmas and a blessed New Year! Taylor, Sam stated "circumstantial evidence ( mostly opinion)", his words. None of which can be tied to anything. That's my only point. I can also make counter points that are more relative now , by people close to the organization, that are direct quotes that negates all the other points. See, I provided undisputed evidence earlier in this thread that SHOT DOWN that rumor. It wasn't a "I am sure", "I think", or something to that effect. It was straight, "I know the answer", "this is a FACT" kind of reply. In other words, BD....

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pageC4
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It is interesting to see how this will play out, but I have to be the bad guy here and say that despite Baron Davis' improved play over the past five games I would still seek a trade. If anything this will improve our chances of mving Baron, and I hope Michael Jordan has been watching so he falls more in love with Baron Davis...just my opinion

Greenmonk94
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I am all for trading baron but we can not do it right now.... baron is helping this ball club come together win games... we might just keep him and trade him when blesoe is ready to be a starter.. untill then thow.. the best thing will be to hold on to him

pageC4
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I understand your logic, and your point is very well put together. However, we will have few takers with Baron, and he is putting together a good string of games. With Baron, we don't know if this will be permanent or temporary, but with his past the bad, lazy, injury plagued Baron will no doubt come around. In any case this will be our last chance to trade him... I hope we move him.

MrB
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pageC4 wrote:
ClipThemOff wrote:
no trade

the team needs to stick together right now during this big run

It is interesting to see how this will play out, but I have to be the bad guy here and say that despite Baron Davis' improved play over the past five games I would still seek a trade. If anything this will improve our chances of mving Baron, and I hope Michael Jordan has been watching so he falls more in love with Baron Davis...just my opinion

Anyone that falls in love with Baron must have it unconditionally.

clipper*joe
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MrB wrote:
pageC4 wrote:
ClipThemOff wrote:
no trade

the team needs to stick together right now during this big run

It is interesting to see how this will play out, but I have to be the bad guy here and say that despite Baron Davis' improved play over the past five games I would still seek a trade. If anything this will improve our chances of mving Baron, and I hope Michael Jordan has been watching so he falls more in love with Baron Davis...just my opinion

Anyone that falls in love with Baron must have it unconditionally.

The other side of that coin is those who hate Baron, no matter how well he's playing, hate him unconditionally. When he has a good game, the people that talk, ain't around. When he has a bad game, or a rumor spreads, they come flocking.

Even when there is proof that Baron isn't being moved right now, some people here overlook it and continue this, "we must trade him". The more we play well with him at the helm, the less of a chance he will get traded.

As for him not being consistent, well, no one on this team is consistent. He's going to have bad games, just like everyone else. That's a given.

Anyone that says we're not playing the best ball since he's come back, have more of an undying hate for him and would rather risk a good thing just so he gets traded. That to me, is not what Clippers Nation is about.

Taylor
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Trade Baron IMO

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