Get Rid of Kaman (P. 2)

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ClipThemOff
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i think he knows his place now. he even admitted it himself.

now why is Gomes and Collins getting them minutes they do is beyond me

clipperboy
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clips need to let kaman go for iggy.. everybody talks bout how baron is the problem when actually he is the solution to the clippers. On the last 5 out of 6 games the clips won he's averaged 9.2ast and 12.3ppg.

greeniis78
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I agree with you Clipperboy. Id let Kaman go for Iggy. I feel were playing great with out Kaman. DJ is doing a good job starting. And when he needs a break then B. Cook can come in for him. I honestly dont think Kaman is the same player he was in the past. Have you seen the games hes played this year. Id rather see DJ out there. And as for Baron, well i wouldnt let him go. He can distribute the ball so well. I mean dang! Him and Griffin are connecting tremendously. The chemistry is finally there. And having Bledsoe of the bench. Wow I love how the clips pulled the trigger on that one to get him. I truly feel were on the right path towards success guys. I love my Clippers! Go CLIPS!!

toohipcliptoslip
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Kaman for Igad. Is this REALLY a possibility? We won't get Varajao either. Comparing CK to DJ is like comparing apples to potato chips.

DJ is playing a quantum better than at the start of the season and he is a starter. He doesn't make bone headed mistakes like he used to. As far as Butterfingers, a lot of the passes were skip passes and they can be too low for a Big to catch. He's durable and quick and I think reliable unlike CK who is spotty. He's now starting to hit tip-ins and give him a few games and he'll have a lay up or a my all time favorite a FINGER ROLL as opposed to Baron's jelly roll donut.

CK was on the coach's ballot an allstar as well as Barkley's. In the crunch you can bet he'll miss his "baby hook" If you give it to DJ and he's in range, 90% sure of a 2 pts. We don't know that we're playing better without CK. We may have have been near 0.500, you can't say. He's fragile. He hits FT's. He can shoot.He won't permanently come off the bench, forget that idea. Will he co-exist with alpha dog BG? If we become a fast break team can he fit? He makes more stupid moves than DJ sometimes.

We have to wait till he's at his best. Remember he can be a total beast. He and DJ may be the one two punch we need but I probably would prefer Prince. I doubt we'll get the Ig man. Ike in now in the equation. He has both skills and power.

Not a bad rotation, BG, CK, DJ, COOKIE and Ike. Arguably the best front court in the leage.Rhino may become obsolete as may Collins

COOKIE 6 pts, three boards, 3pt 44%, FG% 43. He and Chris~70% FT and COOKIE's playing like a beast. Throw in IKE

journeyman
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"Quantum" means the smallest possible measure that can exist. I think DJ's improvement is way more than just quantum.

LAC_12
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Kaman got into the All Star as a REPLACEMENT. Im not downsizing his stats or anything, but a true ALL STAR doesnt need to be a SECOND THOUGHT.

We no longer need a all round great center, as far as strong scorer and main piece of the team. We need someone to bang with big bods, grab a few boards and hold his own. I think DJ could do that. Maybe not as well as Kaman, however one thing DJ has over Kaman is FLOW. And that's a HUGE plus.

When Kaman was healthy... back deep in your memory banks, the team does not FLOW. Offense is stagnant. BG is less efficient, movement is less frequent. Scoring is more difficult, and the offensive set looks unnatural. DJ doesnt require the ball. He moves well out of peoples ways, takes his lanes when he needs to and - OH YEA - jams that sucker home for nice energy.

Kaman would just require the ball, take more shots - meaning less shots for BG and EG. He turns the ball over more. Matter of fact, Kaman is an Offense Killer. Our offense isn't even too great to afford to have Kaman come and screw things.

journeyman
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^^^The offensive flow (or lack of) was the fault or Dunleavy and Del Negro. They both insisted on force-feeding him shots and not surprisingly, the team suffered. Kaman should not be option one, two, or three.

Having that said, Griffin has turned into a 20-10 player. The last time the team made the playoffs, they had a front court of Elton Brand (25 and 10 guy at the time) and Kaman (12 and 9 guy at the time). Kaman has proven to be an effective role player in the past and see no reason why he couldn't continue to to so once he's healthy again.

toohipcliptoslip
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A quantum is a discrete indivisible something like a photon. When something makes a quantum jump, it's gone to the next level on a completely different plane maybe even having little to do with it's previous state. It doesn't mean it's small. You can have something made of billions and billions of quanta but still add one more and you've made a quantum jump to another state. That's about all I know about it.

Yeah it's small, down to Planck (sp) numbers but enough Plancks eventually can make a Plank (really bad pun)

Role player isn't quite the description I'd use. Plays can be run for him and AT TIMES depending on match ups he can be #1 or #2 option in some situations. DJ is a role player. If CK is not a signifigant part of the offense, we don't need him.

OptimusDimes
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This is part of the illusion. The thing that elludes players like Kaman, Thornton, and Maggette. Just because your number is called doesn't mean you have to be the player taking the shot. Notice how Griffin makes a quick decision with the ball, either he waits for the double to leave then go, or he goes before the double team, or he passes and waits to get it back or goes for the boards. It's seems so easy, but players like Kaman struggle making these types of decisions on the fly. He does it on both ends of the floor, but on D it's doesn't show as much, he just was late rotating or didn't get up quick enough to stop the and 1. VDN is teaching his players how to react and not think so much. Uptempo basketball, especially, requires these type of decisions to be muscle memory reactions.

Blake has the IQ to play this style. Baron has the IQ to play this style, but with Baron, once he saw how slow(mentally) this squad was(Dun's plays didn't help either) he lost interest fast.

"Kaman has proven to be an effective role player in the past and see no reason why he couldn't continue to to so once he's healthy again."

Kaman has not shown that he can change his auto program to shoot the ball when he touches it, and he hasn't shown the propensity to pass without TOs at a decent clip.

Add to that the fact that we have BG @ 21pts per, and EJ @ 24 pts per, and this is my main gripe with Kaman. I would love to see him change, I just don't have much faith.

journeyman
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^^^First, your point isn't made any stronger just because you post in all bold.

Next: I'm not sure what you find very uptempo about Del Negro's game plan. Last I checked, the team is about average in possessions per game. And how many times did the Clippers force last second shots or turn the ball over on shot-clock violations against the Kings alone? They're not exactly a defensive team, so I'm guessing the offensive temto isn't all that fast.

Also, you conveniently ignore the fact that Kaman was never a volume shooter through the first five years of his career. It wasn't until after Brand left that Kaman was forced to shoot more (his auto-program, as you put it).

No one is saying Kaman needs to change. If anything, he has to revert. He has to go back to what made him an effective role player (rebound, defend), not a questionable all-star (more points per game).

OptimusDimes
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I do things because I like to...K

OptimusDimes
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Quote:
Next: I'm not sure what you find very uptempo about Del Negro's game plan.

If you don't think this team plays a running style of bball(not the fastest but uptempo non the less) then we can agree to disagree on that one.

Quote:
It wasn't until after Brand left that Kaman became shot more (his auto-program, as you put it).

And...your point is what? I know that Kaman didn't shoot as much when Brand was here. I clearly stated that I don't have confidence in his decision making since Dun drilled in his head iso's, and shoot.

And yes, I call it auto program, because anyone who can't see that Kaman struggles making decisions in realtime is just fooling themselves. This is why doubles are soo effective against him.

journeyman
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The team is currently 20th in fastbreak points at 13 a game, almost the exact same as last year under Dunleavy (12.8 ). You can disagree with reality on that one.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fa ... s-per-game

And my point about Kaman not shooting as much when Brand was here is: Kaman didn't shoot as much when Brand was here, that he was forced to shoot more when there wasn't any other primary option in the front court, but now Griffin is a primary option in the front court, and that Kaman won't have to shoot as much any more.

Teams can't double Griffin and Kaman at the same time, so doubling becomes a moot point.

clipper*joe
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BRAVO!

In case anyone questions what JM is saying, please watch tonight's game and see how our sets begin.

Count the times Griffin is iso'd. Or count the times EJ is given the ball to work.

OptimusDimes
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Ah yes the beauty of stats. Stats that doesn't show ball movement, just fast break points. What about turnovers?

Like I said, if you think that we are playing at the same pace under VDN than Dun why not do a poll? I seriously doubt anyone would agree with your view.

Do we really have to go there to prove our point, or can we not agree to disagree?

lacsmoove
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Chris Kaman is a very good player and at the very least a top 5 center. But he may not be a good fit on this squad anymore. I just don't think you pay a guy 10+ mil to be a role player. I still say if we can get a good SF for him, Foye and Gomes etc. you gotta do it. No need to over analyze the situation or the player

OptimusDimes
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Jeesh man, I think that this is the main problem. He still shoots to much, plus he's not a good passer, or pick setter.

It seems I am repeating myself.

clipper*joe
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Bynum gets 13 million for playing part of the season. Lamar gets 8 million coming off the bench. Yao gets a full salary ( 17 million) not playing a game some years. Gilbert Arenas is getting 17.5 million coming off the bench.

Are people really going to argue that we don't need Kaman? What happens when Griffin gets minor injury and has to sit out 2-5 games? Is Jordan going to pick up his slack? Collins? Jordan can be such a liability that we'd instantly suck if Griffin has to sit out.

We really don't need a SF. Aminu will work out fine. We don't need an IGGY who is overpaid, not a good outside shooter. We need to let Aminu develop and have gomes come off the bench when he's ready.

I'm more worried about the quality of bigs we have.

clipper*joe
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OptimusDimes wrote:
journeyman wrote:
but now Griffin is a primary option in the front court, and that Kaman won't have to shoot as much any more.

Jeesh man, I think that this is the main problem. He still shoots to much, plus he's not a good passer, or pick setter.

It seems I am repeating myself.

Please stop bolding every post. It kinda gets annoying. We can read your sentence just as well, whether it's bolded or not.

Thanks

tense2
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...exactly...he needs to play like he did in 07/08

tense2
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....repeat...Kaman is not a top 5 center

OptimusDimes
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These are just opinions, and I don't feel that we will trade Kaman before the deadline.

I would love to get Iggy to boster our D, and for his passing ability.

As far as the big man depth that Kaman provides, he stays hurt alot.

journeyman
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OptimusDimes wrote:
Quote:
The team is currently 20th in fastbreak points at 13 a game, almost the exact same as last year under Dunleavy (12.8 ). You can disagree with reality on that one.

Ah yes the beauty of stats. Stats that doesn't show ball movement, just fast break points. What about turnovers?

Like I said, if you think that we are playing at the same pace under VDN than Dun why not do a poll? I seriously doubt anyone would agree with your view.

Do we really have to go there to prove our point, or can we not agree to disagree?

Agree to disagree on what? You're claiming that Del Negro plays a faster pace. That claim is verifiably wrong. Ignoring the statistics doesn't make them any less true. You can claim that, in your opinion, Blake Griffin is 5'9 and Baron Davis leads the league in rebounds, but that doesn't make it so.

If we're to ignore fastbreak points, then what's the point of playing an alleged uptempo game, exactly?

pageC4
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Injuries have hurt Kaman alot. Luckily for the team we have a solid backup with Deandre. However, I do think one concern for the front office is what to do about Kaman. Kaman is a fantastic player when healthy and motivated. Last years performance speaks for itself. However, injuries aside I have noticed one troubling thing about Kaman. His best years were when a good power forward wasn't in the lineup. Do you guys all remember when Elton Brand went down for the season? Well Kaman was free from competition in the front court and posted something like 16 PPG in the season. The only other year we have seen production like this was last year when Blake Griffin never made the lineup due to injury. In the presence of Elton Brand, Zach Randolph, and Blake Griffin Chris has only put up troubling numbers like 13PPG. Now let me be clear on this. I don't expect Kaman to ever get 20PPG with a power forward like Blake Griffin, Zach Randolph, or Elton Brand in the lineup...but I think 11-13PPG is a tad bit low. A solid number for him to contribute on the offensive end is about 15-16 PPG, very reasonable. But it just doesn't seem to happen for chris. I don't know if it is a mental thing with him, but anyway it's something the front office has to consider because we do need someone to put in 100% effort in any lineup, not just when your best front court is missing (which makes you look beter because you have become the go to guy up front by default, or simply have no one else stealing rebounds from you). Just my opinion

SamMays
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clipper*joe wrote:
lacsmoove wrote:
Chris Kaman is a very good player and at the very least a top 5 center. But he may not be a good fit on this squad anymore. I just don't think you pay a guy 10+ mil to be a role player. I still say if we can get a good SF for him, Foye and Gomes etc. you gotta do it. No need to over analyze the situation or the player

Bynum gets 13 million for playing part of the season. Lamar gets 8 million coming off the bench. Yao gets a full salary ( 17 million) not playing a game some years. Gilbert Arenas is getting 17.5 million coming off the bench.

Are people really going to argue that we don't need Kaman? What happens when Griffin gets minor injury and has to sit out 2-5 games? Is Jordan going to pick up his slack? Collins? Jordan can be such a liability that we'd instantly suck if Griffin has to sit out.

We really don't need a SF. Aminu will work out fine. We don't need an IGGY who is overpaid, not a good outside shooter. We need to let Aminu develop and have gomes come off the bench when he's ready.

I'm more worried about the quality of bigs we have.

Joe is exactly right on this... People need to keep in mind, Kaman will not be getting the ball a lot early in the clock where he has to generate an offense... The game will still be played through Gordon and Griffin... It's just that when Kaman is open, which will happen a lot more as teams must concentrate on G and G, he will knock down wide open shots... We'll score more, not because he's shooting more, but the team as a whole will get more quality shots... When Kaman is right, his 17-foot jumper is money. A nice weapon to have with seven seconds on the shot clock.,

JTClipper
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One of these days Blake Griffin is going to say the same thing that Kobe said about Bynum to Kaman. "SHIP HIS ASS OUT!"

journeyman
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^^^unlikely

Kobe = a cry baby, quitter

Griffin = a man, not a quitter

journeyman
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journeyman wrote:
OptimusDimes wrote:
Quote:
The team is currently 20th in fastbreak points at 13 a game, almost the exact same as last year under Dunleavy (12.8 ). You can disagree with reality on that one.

Ah yes the beauty of stats. Stats that doesn't show ball movement, just fast break points. What about turnovers?

Like I said, if you think that we are playing at the same pace under VDN than Dun why not do a poll? I seriously doubt anyone would agree with your view.

Do we really have to go there to prove our point, or can we not agree to disagree?

Agree to disagree on what? You're claiming that Del Negro plays a faster pace. That claim is verifiably wrong. Ignoring the statistics doesn't make them any less true. You can claim that, in your opinion, Blake Griffin is 5'9 and Baron Davis leads the league in rebounds, but that doesn't make it so.

If we're to ignore fastbreak points, then what's the point of playing an alleged uptempo game, exactly?

No response, huh? wink

LotsoHope
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Fast break points are not a perfect indicator of game pace, since usually good defensive teams will get fast break points but not necessarily execute as a run-n-gun team for most of the game. A better (or perhaps supplementary) indicator would be FGA per game, IMO.

Kobe is a cry baby but definitely not a quitter. As much as I hate him, he is a natural competitor and he'll play through injury and work his butt off in the off-season unlike many other superstars. I don't see Blake being the type of leader to throw teammates under the bus, but this is only his first year, who knows if the lights and cameras will get to his head in a couple years. I just hope he doesn't use King Busdriver in Miami as his role model for leadership.

I don't exactly have much to add to the Kaman debate other than what I've already said, just anxious to see how he works his way back into this lineup. Even if Kaman gets his 15 and 9 after returning, there'll still be people here clamoring to ship him off to the Lost island after a tough loss or messy turnover, can't win over all of them wink

journeyman
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Yup. And the team is around middle of the pack in possessions per game and FGA. So which team have we been so far? An offensive uptempo run and gun team, or defensive team that causes turnovers?

I'm claiming the second one, but others insist we're the first, for some reason...

TheDude
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If we can get Iggy+Speights for Kaman, IMO it's worth it. For Iggy only, I wouldn't do it.

MrB
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We are not a run and gun team. We don't take quick shots and we run a lot of half court sets. I'm not seeing the run gun stuff but maybe i'm wrong.

For those that want to dump Kaman, why dump em if you don't even know how his impact will be with the team? If the team performs poorly then make your case but as of right now you don't what's going to happen so give it some time.

GoClippersGo829
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Even though Kaman Baffle's me with his consistent little blunders, the Clipp's aren't really in a strong position to deal him. DJ is getting better yes, But it's still relatively early in the season and the wear and tear of these final 50 games might way on him physically and mentally, Jarron Collins should really only get garbage minutes and Ike has only played 2 games (noteworthy though) since the micro fx surgery. Cook's ankle injury was apparently more serious than originally thought, and Rhino has herniated disc which they say two weeks, but with the Clippers medical staff who knows.

Kaman though can be a solid big when he's on his game, and putting him next to Blake should lessen Chris's offensive load. His numbers will be a lot lower than last season obviously (Blake, EJ, BD), so more importantly he can focus on defense, Kaman's defense these last 2 seasons have not been impressive, despite being known as more of a defender in his early Clipper years. Hopefully he can get back to that when his ankle heals, we've seen him perform quite well adding him to the mix could spark a run which the Clippers desperately need.

In this league it's a must just to stay healthy, which is the Clippers undoing every year. Trading Kaman at this point would only hurt the Clipps depth. Aminu is developing nicely as well at the SF position so i see no reason to trade a decent Big to logjam the forward spot. Kaman's contract is not of concern, it expires just in time to resign the young Clipper franchise players. so i would hold onto him in case an offer you couldn't refuse scenario presents it's self, or a least till the feb trade deadline to see if they can make a run. I know i can be Clipper dreamer, but it's seems logical. Also VDN as had a pattern so far as a coach for rough starts and good finishes, hope fully thats the trend for this years Clipp's. That though could be a future concern of ours for us Clipper fans. hope not, any ways lets hope the Clipps get off to a fast start and beat the Jazz tonight. GO Clipps

ClipThemOff
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[quote="SamMays"][quote="clipper*joe"]

Bynum gets 13 million for playing part of the season. Lamar gets 8 million coming off the bench. Yao gets a full salary ( 17 million) not playing a game some years. Gilbert Arenas is getting 17.5 million coming off the bench.


right on the money. a lot of good role players are paid that much and their fans do support them (maybe except Arenas after the gun thing)

i do support Jordan as well, but people do overvalue him too much because if any of you haven't noticed he does start but he doesnt play a lot of minutes during the duration of the game. same with Aminu. he did start but then you never saw him for the rest of the game.

pageC4
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This is so difficult to determine. If you evaluate Chris Kaman's entire career against the entire career of the top five centers today...yes you are right tense2, he is not a top five center. However, last year he did play a caliber that merited to be considered among the top five..no, top three centers in the league. I think Kaman is kind of becoming like a player in the mold of Lamar Odom. By that I mean that on any given night he is capable of putting up 20 points 10 rebounds and good defense then on other nights 10 points 6 rebounds. His career, much like Lamar Odoms, is starting to become very unpredictable. Players like this are extremely frustrating especially when a decision comes to renew contracts or trade them because you don't know which one you will get after he signs that contract

LAC_12
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I have got to go with Optimus on this one... VDNs offense is "faster" paced. Fast paced does not mean more fast breaks. It means more movement - ball and man. Yes we still play LOTS of half court sets, but the spacing is becoming better and better, allowing players to move! MOEVEMENT = FASTER PACE.

Kaman is the opposite of this. Kaman is a GREAT player, but he no longer fits with this team. His IQ is too low for this moving offense, "faster paced" offense.

Also in the true sense of fast pace, Kaman does not run the floor as well as DJ or Ike Diogu.

In the end, I see Kaman has run his course with this team. However he is a GREAT player, and we can get some great value for him.

journeyman
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Fine. I'm done arguing. We're an uptempo team that doesn't get fastbreak points or use more possesions per game than half the other teams in the league. We're a fast paced team that moves the ball and constantly earns shot clock violations.

Maybe we can also be a defensive team that doesn't get blocks or steals. Or a run and gun team that doesn't take or make three pointers.

pageC4
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I think the same situation applies with Baron, like Kaman they both have potential to be great, but it does not always happen. At this point we have a great young team. Despite Barons iproved play, and a potential comeback from Kaman..we need to stay the course and add young pieces to compliment Blake, Gordon, DJ, Aminu, and Bledsoe

LotsoHope
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The Utah game last night showed that even with DJ playing well (only thing I can criticize was lack of rebounding in the second half), we still need more frontcourt depth to compete with the top teams. And Kaman will provide this for us.

pageC4
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I hope so.. i really want him to come back and stay injury free and play at his highest level. I would be very happy if he came back to post 15 points a game 8-10 rebounds and strong defense..I guess we will see in the future

clippersfan85
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I have been reading that the Knicks may make A. Randolph available. I would consider trading Kaman for Randolph and Curry(cap). This would give the Knicks a solid center for the playoffs and the Clippers a promising young piece along with cap relief.

OptimusDimes
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You're a funny a dude, you wait for me to leave to respond and this say your done when I said that we could agree to disagree a long time ago but you still want to make a point.

I heard all I needed to hear when you said we weren't a uptempo team because of a fastbreak point stat?

*Poof* Begone

journeyman
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Yeah...

Microclipps
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whoever says get rid of kaman for junk is a complete idiot. who are you gonna trade him for? who you rather have playing jarod collins or aminu? cause if we do trade kaman it would be for a small forward which leaves aminu out and collins more playing time. people tend to forget kaman can play off the ball very well, back in the EB days so i have no doubt that he cant the same with blake. oh yeah if you guys really watch basketball andre aguadala is overrated for is contract.

BenjaSands
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i have always said that the Clippers are never going anywhere with Chris Kaman as their primary scorer...EVER....i cringed everytime the Clippers went to him in the post cause all teams had to do to stop him was double him and he would throw it away or take a silly shot....

Blake on the other hand...well we have all seen what he can do when we go to him in the post ..he makes things happen and does everything Chris Kaman can not...in summation....if we retain Chris Kaman iit is likely we run plays for him in the post thus taking away plays for Blake and thats horrible in my opinion..the less of Kaman on the offensive end the better....all we would need Kaman for would be rebounding and Blocking but he doesnt even do that well.....and the way DJ has been playing we dont need him anymore.....

i have also always said that it affects our team more positively when EJ scores alot as opposed to when Kaman would score...there are bigger possibilities that we get victories with EJ scoring alot than Kaman.....and it is just stuff i have noticed over the years...i understand the loyalty factor but man if we can maybe send Kaman, Rasual (since he doesnt even play anymore anyone know why???) and someone else toa team for a decent vet id be happy

seanrooks
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nobody wants kaman as a primary scorer, and he won't be. he'll be like a third option and should thrive in that position. last year, he was next to camby who can't really score, and he faced a bunch of double teams. basically, he was overwhelmed because he's not meant to be a number 1 option, and because he didn't have someone like griffin playing the 4 next to him.

griffin, on the other hand, has done better and has proven he can be our go to in the post. however, he also faces a lot of double teams because nobody has to guard deandre more than 2 feet from the basket. what kaman does is help open the floor for griffin because he is a much better scorer than deandre. kaman playing with griffin and gordon will improve his game as he will get fewer touches, fewer double teams, fewer turnovers...and kaman's game will help griffin's in return. as long as kaman can just be the third option, i think he's a good fit.

seanrooks
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1364

us.gif
votes: 31

surprisingly, it's griffin who is seen as a cry baby around the league.

i like to read opposing teams' blogs after they play the clips, on sb nation or realgm or whatever...almost every team calls griffin a whiny female dog. the blazers REALLY went at him after the whole andre miller incident. even the nicer comments around the league were like "he's a beast, but he still whines."

yes, he complains, but for the amount he gets knocked around i really don't think he deserves to be called a whiny baby.

OptimusDimes
Clipper Starter
Posts: 459
votes: 3

[quote="OptimusDimes"]

journeyman wrote:
Fine. I'm done arguing. .

Quote:

*Poof* Begone

When I said poof, begone I meant you, not my post.

Wow, I would hate to have to save my posts everytime I write one just because a mod doesn't agree with me.

You convieniently took out the meat of my argument to make yourself look better?

NOT COOL. lol

clipboard
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1333

calif.gif
votes: 4

The question we should be asking is whether the experience that $10 ml brings with Chris will place a stabilizing influence on the young high flight , not so able to quickly adapt Clips? The slightest change in opponent's D and high flight begins to become high drama disaster.

OptimusDimes
Clipper Starter
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Posts: 459
votes: 3

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